Talk:Alpha Phi Omega

WP:GAN?

I'm trying to decide when to go for GA again for this article. I think it mostly meets the criteria, since it has been largely reorganized and has a good amount of reference citations. Although I am still concerned over the fact that most of the citations are from APO sources, and not independent ones, a concern which was brought up during the reassessment when it was ultimately delisted. Any thoughts? Dr. Cash (talk) 17:28, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

I'm not certain why that should be an issue. Take a look at Alpha Phi Alpha. The vast majority of the references either originate from the National office, or from chapter websites. All of the books cited are written by APA brothers. The same goes for Alpha Kappa Alpha. Both of these orgs have made feature article status largely on citing themselves and their chapters. I say skip GA and go for FA, since that seems to be acceptable for those articles. This isn't a slam on them, rather a statement of if it's acceptable for those articles, it should be for this one too. Justinm1978 (talk) 19:07, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

There's a difference between Majority (51+ percent) and All (100 percent), its 49 percent. The Alpha Phi Alpha article has about 42 percent of citations from independent sources. Alpha Kappa Alpha has about 25 percent from independent sources. You may not get to 25 percent; however, editors may be insulted if you nominate and haven't seriously addressed the main reason for de-listing from GA, and then attempt to regain GA or jump to FA status based upon the rhetoric stated above. Just make sure your ducks are standing beak to tail, and Good Luck!!--Ccson (talk) 16:32, 19 February 2008 (UTC)

userbox deletion

I've proposed a deletion of an APO userbox (not the one advertised here, a different one under WikiProject Scouting). Please discuss there. Justinm1978 (talk) 17:54, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

List of all-male chapters

I wonder if this list is appropriate in this article at present or not, or what form it should take? With the new policy in force after the 2006 convention, the all-male chapters will either have to go co-ed, or disband. So ultimately, there will be no all-male chapters left in APO (except for the unique case of the all-male school, Wabash College, but they're not on the list in this article). So, as far as the maintenance of this article is concerned, we have a few options:

• Remove the list of all male chapters, since they're being phased out. Not exactly accurate, though, since not all chapters have completed the transition yet.
• Keep the list, but rephrase it more to the effect of, "prior to the 2006 convention, the last remaining all male chapters were...", and keep the list as it was before the 2006 convention voted to order all chapters to be co-ed. This would be mostly serving in the interests of preserving history, since it could be considered notable that several chapters were the last to transition to co-ed status. Likewise, we may want to try to find information to add to the history on some of the first chapters to transition back in the early 1970s (Kappa, Zeta, Alpha Chi, etc).
• No change in the status quo; i.e. we keep maintaining the list as-is, gradually removing chapters from the list as they either transition, or disband, until it gets down to zero. It's going to be hard to cite this, because it's unlikely that we'll find 'press releases' or news stories in the mainstream news media; the only evidence will be from internal board reports or word-of-mouth from the region directors and/or section chairs.

I'm leaning towards the second option above, since it preserves the history and contributes to telling the story of APO's transition from an all-male fraternity to a co-ed one, and doesn't just erase the last remaining all-male chapters from history entirely.

In somewhat related news, I have heard from reliable, yet unpublished sources in Region V that the Sigma Xi chapter at Maine will be disbanding at its section conference, and starting a new service organization. Also, the Chi Pi chapter at Duquesne announced at the section 65/66 conference this past weekend that its intention is to transition prior to the deadline, but also asked chapters to respect its right to privacy so that the don't get bombarded with too many offers of assistance from every chapter nearby, which could get a bit overwhelming. Their statements at the conference were well-received with understanding by the students and the staff present, however. Dr. Cash (talk) 19:32, 28 February 2008 (UTC)`

Information as of April 21st, 2008

Number of active chapters 363. School (Region/Section)

Petition Groups: 12 Alabama State University (IV/69) Emporia State University (VIII/34) Ivy Tech Community College (VI/31) Regent University (III/83) Salisbury University (III/85) San Diego State University (X/2) St. Augustine's College (III/80) St. Anselm College (I/94) Tarrant County College -Southeast (VII/41) University of Illinois at Springfield (VI/47) University of Maryland - Baltimore County (III/86) University of the Redlands (X/2)

Interest Groups: 17 California State University, Fullerton (X/2) Centenary College (I/99) Defiance College (V/56) Harold Washington College (VI/51) Midwestern State University (VII/41) Montclair State University (I/99) North Western Michigan College (VI/53) Parkland College (VI/50) Pennsylvania State University Altoona College (II/90) Tulane Univ of Louisiana (VII/45) University of Miami (VI/71) University of Nevada, Las Vegas (X/2) University of Texas at Tyler (VII/41) University of the District of Columbia (III/85) Wayland Baptist University (VII/40) Western Connecticut State University (I/96) Winona State University (IX/23)Naraht (talk) 16:55, 21 April 2008 (UTC)

Changes as of 4 June

Petitioning Groups (13) +California State University, Fullerton (X/2) -San Diego State University (X/2) (chartered) +Tulane University of Louisiana(VII/45)

Interest Groups (16) -Tulane University of Louisiana (VII/45) to PG +Brookhaven College (VII/41) -California State University, Fullerton (X/2) to PG -Centenary College (I/99) +Elizabeth City State University (III/80) +Pennsylvania State University Beaver (V/65) -University of Miami (IV/71)

New user label

For those that don't use userboxes, and as part of the Keep it Simple project, I've created an APO user label.

You can get Template:User label Alpha Phi Omega by adding {{user label Alpha Phi Omega}} to your user page. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Gogobera (talk • contribs)

1998 Bylaws?

The following exists in the current article.

This "gentleman's agreement" was formalized in the by-laws at the 1998 Convention: 

and was changed by a IP address user to "formalized in a resolution at the 1998 Convention."

This actually sounds more likely. It isn't actually *in* the bylaws anywhere...Naraht (talk) 02:42, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

I'm fine with that. The only reason I took it out was because it was blended in with a bunch of other edits that didn't feel right, and I was too lazy to differentiate :) Justinm1978 (talk) 02:56, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

Any suggestions on wording?Naraht (talk) 12:25, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

Wikilink for Dr. Ureta

If a page hasn't been created for Dr. Ureta by Tuesday morning (June 24th), I'll get rid of the link myself. Adding the middle initial seems OK, but it should be consistent across this article and the APO-Phil president's template.Naraht (talk) 20:13, 21 June 2008 (UTC)

Capitalization of Words in Purpose

Can we move discussion about which way that should be to the talk page? I'm seeing it both ways on the national website. It has all of the capitalization in the pledge manual and the Fact Sheet (http://www.apo.org/site/site_files/APO_YSO_Info_Sheet.pdf). On the National bylaws page (http://www.apo.org/site/site_files/APO_National_Bylaws_2-07.pdf), when it is Article II in the bylaws, it has the same capitalization as the pledge manual, however in the Articles of Incorporation, most of the same phrasing is in lower case except for Scout, Oath, Law, Boy Scouts and America. I guess the ultimate source should be Article II of the bylaws which is where it is legally set for the purposes of the Fraternity, which means the extra capitalization. Ideas?Naraht (talk) 07:15, 14 October 2008 (UTC)

As the bylaws are the (much) more frequently updated document, I would say that it most accurately reflects the Fraternity's view on the subject. Let's stick with that Henrymrx (talk) 11:06, 14 October 2008 (UTC)

I think the bylaws are updated every two years just like the Pledge Manual is updated every two years.Naraht (talk) 14:32, 14 October 2008 (UTC)

I meant that as opposed to the Articles of Incorporation. Sorry I wasn't clearer. Henrymrx (talk) 20:35, 14 October 2008 (UTC)

OKNaraht (talk) 19:56, 15 October 2008 (UTC)

I would concur with using the bylaws as how this should be capitalized.

Justinm1978 (talk) 14:10, 14 October 2008 (UTC)

They should be not capitalized because they are ordinary words used in a sentence. The only need to capitalize them would be if they were a direct and attributed quote from a document that spelled them that way. Rmhermen (talk) 20:37, 14 October 2008 (UTC)

Which is, I believe, exactly the situation here. The words in question are in quotation marks and followed immediately with a reference to a document which spells them in that way. Philhower (talk) 20:51, 14 October 2008 (UTC)

Should we change the reference to the National Bylaws then as a more direct example?Naraht (talk) 19:56, 15 October 2008 (UTC)

Information as of January 30th

373 Active
052 ActiveInactive
016 ActiveInterest Group
014 ActivePetitioning Group
016 Closed School
285 Inactive

(This is from http://www.apo.org/show/How_to_Start_a_Chapter/Chapter_List), ActiveInactive is what comes up for an extension effort prior to Interest Group.)

Thanks for letting me know. I'll have to fix that. Those forms shouldn't be pulling up anything for Prospect Groups. In the meantime, this page is working properly. Dr. Cash (talk) 15:45, 30 January 2009 (UTC)

I should have kept my mouth shut, I like the extra data I can get that way. :)Naraht (talk) 16:42, 30 January 2009 (UTC)

14 Petitioning Group:
Alabama State University (R IV, S 69)
California State University, Fullerton (R X, S 2)
Colorado School of Mines (R VIII, S 30)
Defiance College (R V, S 56)
Elizabeth City State University (R III, S 80)
Ivy Tech Community College (R VI, S 31)
Montclair State University (R I, S 99)
St. Anselm College (R I, S 94)
Tarrant County College SE (R VII, S 41)
Tulane University (R VII, S 45)
University of Illinois at Springfield (R VI, S 47)
University of the District of Columbia (R III, S 85)
Wayland Baptist University (R VII, S 40)
Winona State University (R IX, S 23)

16 Interest Group:
Brookhaven College (R VII, S 41)
DeSales University (R II, S 91)
Harold Washington College (R VI, S 51)
Midwestern State University (R VII, S 41)
North Western Michigan College (R VI, S 53)
Park University (R VIII, S 35)
Park University, DSCC campus(?) (R V, S 59)
Parkland College (R VI, S 50)
Penn State Beaver (R V, S 65)
Pennsylvania State University Altoona College (R II, S 90)
Richard Stockton College of New Jersey (R I, S 99)
University of California at Santa Cruz (R X, S 4)
University of Nevada, Las Vegas (R X, S 2)
University of Pittsburgh at Johnstown (R V, S 66)
University of Texas at Tyler (R VII, S 41)
Western Connecticut State University (R I, S 96)

Naraht (talk) 14:36, 30 January 2009 (UTC)

Information as of April 15th, 2009

• 367 Active
• 020 Interest Group
• 013 Petitioning Group
• 016 Closed School
• 343 Inactive

(This is from http://www.apo.org/show/How_to_Start_a_Chapter/Chapter_List)

Petitioning Groups

• Alabama State University (R IV, S 69)
• Brookhaven College (R VII, S 41)
• California State University, Fullerton (R X, S 2)
• Colorado School of Mines (R VIII, S 30)
• Ivy Tech Community College (Indianapolis) (R VI, S 31)
• Park University (R V, S 59)
• St. Anselm College (R I, S 94)
• Tarrant County College (SE Campus) (R VII, S 41)
• Tulane University (R VII, S 45)
• University of Illinois at Springfield (R VI, S 47)
• University of the District of Columbia (R III, S 85)
• Wayland Baptist University (R VII, S 40)
• Winona State University (R IX, S 23)

Interest Groups

• Alabama A&M University (R IV, S 69)
• DeSales University (R II, 91)
• Harold Washington College (R VI, S 51)
• Midwestern State University (R VII, S 41)
• New England College (R I, S94)
• North Western Michigan College (R VI, S53)
• Northwestern University (R VI, S 51)
• Park University (R VIII, S 35)
• Parkland College (R VI, S 50)
• Penn State Beaver (R V, S65)
• Pennsylvania State University Altoona College (R II, S90)
• Regent University (R III, S83)
• Richard Stockton College of New Jersey (R I, S 99)
• University of California at Santa Cruz (R X, S 4)
• University of Nevada, Las Vegas (R X, S 2)
• University of Pittsburgh at Johnstown (R V, S 66)
• University of Puerto Rico at Bayamon (R IV, S 98)
• University of Texas at Tyler (R VII, S 41)
• University of Texas-El Paso (R VII, S 40)
• Western Connecticut State University (R I, S 96)

Naraht (talk) 16:05, 15 April 2009 (UTC)

List of all-males

Do we still need to have the list of all-male chapters at co-ed institutions? I understand that even Delta has gone co-ed now. Henrymrx (t·c) 05:17, 10 May 2009 (UTC)

I can't find anything on Delta's website http://www.aphio-delta.org to support that they have gone co-ed.Naraht (talk) 11:44, 10 May 2009 (UTC)

It's not reflected in their chapter website yet, but I have received confirmation from a Delta Alum and current Board member that they are co-ed as of April 2009. Dr. Cash (talk) 14:09, 29 May 2009 (UTC)

When you have an appropriate reference... :) Naraht (talk) 15:05, 29 May 2009 (UTC)

It was under my impression that if Delta were to be forced to go coed, the chapter would formally disband and file a petition to have the chapter listing permanently removed from Alpha Phi Omega, i.e. if a new Chapter started in Auburn it would not be Delta chapter. Of course that was back when I was an active alumni and kept up with such things. Personally I find this better than being forced to go coed. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 209.6.144.51 (talk) 16:20, 21 June 2009 (UTC)

That may be your understanding, but I have seen no sign one way or another on the chapter website. According to the National website they are still active, and I have a non-public source that indicates that they have sent in the initiation fees for the spring '09 new brothers. If you would like to inquire further, please do so on my talk page.Naraht (talk) 01:18, 22 June 2009 (UTC)

external links in text

I notice that lots of external links have sprung up in the article text itself. Mostly, these are links to lists of chapters and things of that nature, although there are a few other external links as well, such as links to buildings the national office was located in and such. Unfortunately, including direct external links in the text of articles is NOT in agreement with Wikipedia's manual of style and external links guidelines. It's acceptable to put a link to something in the text if it's used in a inline reference citation, but plain external links need to be moved to the "external links" section at the end of the article.

I also take issue with the multiple second- and third-level headers used in the 'organization' section. This makes it very difficult to determine which headers are the main ones (2nd level) and which ones are the minor (3rd level) headers. It is very poor form and looks bad, especially when you overuse these lower level headings by putting very little text in the section underneath it.

The article will never pass GA or FA review with this issues. Dr. Cash (talk) 14:05, 29 May 2009 (UTC)

Most of those movements into the text are my fault. They fall into two categories, as you said. The ones for the buildings and the ones for the Philippine chapters. For the buildings, do you think any of them could be their won article? For the Columbia Bank, perhaps a comment of destroyed, with the link as a reference there.

Articles on individual buildings are acceptable in some cases, particularly for historical buildings. However, articles on personal (non-historic) residences are not considered notable, and will probably end up at WP:AfD. Dr. Cash (talk) 19:17, 29 May 2009 (UTC)

Hmm. Maybe the Mainmark. I'll take a look. In the mean time I should get rid of the non-internal links in the section (I'll add one to National Register of Historic Places listings in Missouri, Counties J-K for the Mainmark. I'm not sure for the others. Naraht (talk) 03:22, 30 May 2009 (UTC)

For the chapters, I was looking at most of the other Fraternity articles. Most of them have chapter lists, and while putting that into this article won't work (even longer than the famous alumni), for most it *is* a first level header. The way that we've set things up, information on APO-USA chapters would be inside of the five level organization structure. I'd like to put it as a first level header, but if that is done it runs into the entire problem of the fact that there should be a separate article for APO-Phil. Do you think we should have the APO-USA chapter list as its own page? What about APO-Phil?Naraht (talk) 15:04, 29 May 2009 (UTC)

I was thinking it might be nice to create separate list articles of lists of APO-USA and APO-PHIL chapters. While a wikipedia-based list of APO-USA chapters seems redundant, since it's readily available to all at www.apo.org, a listing of APO-PHIL chapters is not readily available at that website, and a separate list in Wikipedia would make this information more readily accessible. It might be good to also include in these lists, dates of chartering (and rechartering, where applicable). Dr. Cash (talk) 19:17, 29 May 2009 (UTC)

Actually, I think that a list of USA articles could be in a more accessible and easier to read format that the one at apo.org. If you guys decide to do it, drop me a note. If it's in the next few weeks, I can devote some time to working on it. I probably can't help you much with the Filipino one. I think that's all you, Randy. =) Henrymrx (t·c) 21:10, 29 May 2009 (UTC)

For APO-Phil, I think everything except whether they are currently active is at the one I just added at for http://nujsimon.liondrive.com/CHAPTERS%20AND%20ALUMNI%20ASSOCIATION.xls. Hmm. download the file as xls, output as csv, loop through the file using perl to add data on any extra lines to the parent field above, transform each date into a dts template and wikilink the schools and the locations and output with |- before each line and | before each field. Shouldn't be too bad.

For APO-USA, OTOH, I think we have everything except their chartering dates. I used to have access to a DB at nationals which had that in relatively accessible form, but let me see what I can get from USA-Nationals by asking nicely. I can at least create one for USA with the chapter, school and status relatively easily by writing some shell code to shift around what's on the apo-usa site into a table...Naraht (talk) 04:03, 30 May 2009 (UTC)

APO Philippines Chapters page.

Please take a look at Alpha Phi Omega (Philippines) Chapters and Alumni Associations and let me know what you think for a first try. It's from the http://nujsimon.liondrive.com/CHAPTERS%20AND%20ALUMNI%20ASSOCIATION.xls spreadsheet. It was transformed using perl, so any mispellings are in the original. My tweeks still need to be done...Naraht (talk) 17:55, 2 June 2009 (UTC)

Working on it. Hope you don't mind. =) Henrymrx (t·c) 19:12, 2 June 2009 (UTC)

That's quite alright. I did clash with you on some of my edits, but that will treat me to do it while waiting for things at work to compile. I'm going to wait until we get the major issues out before I add on the Alumni Associations.Naraht (talk) 20:21, 2 June 2009 (UTC)

Alpha Phi Omega (Philippines) Chapters and Alumni Associations is complete to this point. As far as I know, I've brought it up to date with the Torch and Trefoil from the 25th NBC including all of the proper current regions. Next stop APO-USA.Naraht (talk) 15:07, 15 June 2009 (UTC)

Are we sure we want to put alumni associations in the chapter listings? I know, at least for the APO-USA organization, alumni associations are very fluid and they seem to come and go at the whim of whoever's running it at the time. Though supposedly, APO-RP has a bit more of an alumni focus? Dr. Cash (talk) 21:51, 22 June 2009 (UTC)

*Much* less fluid. The one pieces of information we don't have is what chapters/alumni associations are inactive (other than the closed schools), but from what I've seen, APO-RP AA's don't go under near as often. Each of the 11 Regions has am Alumni Director on the Board, where only the 7 Regions with chapters have a Director for the chapters... I'm leaning away from having APO-USA AA's on the APO-USA chapter list page.Naraht (talk) 01:51, 23 June 2009 (UTC)

Name

It occurs to me that the article does not indicate the fraternity's correct name, which is Alpha Phi Omega National Service Fraternity. I'd like to add that, but something needs to indicate what the full name of APO in the Philippines is. And... I'm not sure what that is. It used to be Alpha Phi Omega National Fraternity and Sorority, Inc. At least, I think that's what it used to be. The website [1] seems to have conflicting information. Thoughts? Henrymrx (t·c) 19:03, 30 June 2009 (UTC)

How is that the Fraternity's correct name? Article I of the APO-USA National Bylaws clearly state: The name of this Fraternity shall be ALPHA PHI OMEGA. And while the bylaws do refer to Alpha Phi Omega National Service Fraternity (In the duties of the International Relations Director and the purpose of the National Alumni Association), I don't consider that to override Article I. The Articles of Incorporation which override the bylaws, never use the term Alpha Phi Omega National Service Fraternity. The Standard Chapter Articles of Incorporation are inferior (in a legal sense) to the bylaws and thus, IMO, irrelevant. There is even a use of Alpha Phi Omega, National Service Fraternity (note the comma) in the establishment of the Risk Management policy.Naraht (talk) 19:47, 30 June 2009 (UTC)

Well... Clearly, I don't know what I'm talking about. =) Henrymrx (t·c) 20:19, 30 June 2009 (UTC)

Sorry for the sharp tone in my response, I was dealing with a stressful person at work.Naraht (talk) 20:37, 30 June 2009 (UTC)

No need to apologize. I included a smiley, but it doesn't show up very well on these pages. Henrymrx (t·c) 21:16, 30 June 2009 (UTC)

Also, according to google "Alpha Phi Omega National Fraternity and Sorority" doesn't exist as a string on http://www.apo.org.ph/Naraht (talk) 19:47, 30 June 2009 (UTC)

Yeah, I knew that I wasn't sure about that one. Henrymrx (t·c) 20:19, 30 June 2009 (UTC)

I'd like to know as well. I'm fairly sure if it does include the word fraternity, it will include sorority.Naraht (talk) 20:37, 30 June 2009 (UTC)

Alpha Phi Omega (Philippines)

Well, it got created (by someone who doesn't appear to have much wikipedia experience). Let's work on getting it right.Naraht (talk) 13:47, 19 August 2009 (UTC)

I've moved the article to History of Alpha Phi Omega in the Philippines. I feel strongly that a separate article on the national organization is NOT appropriate, but can see the advantages of separating out the historical aspects, which is probably what the article is mostly going to consist of anyway. Dr. Cash (talk) 14:06, 19 August 2009 (UTC)

Please see rationale for the move at Talk:History of Alpha Phi Omega in the Philippines. If anyone has a better idea for how to organize the Alpha Phi Omega pages on Wikipedia any better, it would be nice to hear it. Overall, none of the APO pages currently here would go so far as to pass a WP:FAC or WP:GAN review (probably not even C-class). Information seems to be mixed together in a generic hodgepodge of articles and sections with little order whatsoever, and little regard for Wikipedia's manual of style. Dr. Cash (talk) 14:59, 19 August 2009 (UTC)

Working on Alpha Phi Omega chapters page

Right now I'm working on a page for APO-USA chapters at User:Naraht/Alpha Phi Omega chapters. It's from a file from the national office, there are some issues such as active petitioning efforts showing up as Active. I still have to add/change entries in that column for active/inactive/PG/IG/closed. Right now I'm working on getting rid of as many red links as I can. I'm going to leave the one for Central YMCA College since there *should* be an article on it.Naraht (talk) 19:49, 8 October 2009 (UTC)

I see several dates in there being listed as January 1, <some year>. I think the '1/1' should be removed in those cases, only listing the year. When they entered those into the database, I think they were required to put a month and day, so they just put '1/1' since they didn't know the exact month/day. For our purposes, it's better to simply put the year. If a month/day other than January 1, is listed, then it's fine to keep that, though. Dr. Cash (talk) 20:11, 8 October 2009 (UTC)

I agree. While I know there was at least one chartering at a National Convention (Northern Arizona U). I doubt that anything in that table *really* occured on 1/1/year. One reason that I haven't touched the dates yet, is that I'm looking on taking the source back to my UNIX machine and transforming the dates to the DTS template which will allow sorting, but the rechartering dates and dates of inactivity may not be useful for that. (I'm considering making those two fields unsortable.) Also, I have to figure out how to make the Regions sortable in a reasonable way so that IX doesn't happen between IV and V. The simplest solution would be to simply have the arabic number in the column, but I *think* there is a smarter way. Yes, it would involve some massive substitutions, but that's what copying Wikipedia source to either Wordpad or worst case UNIX for use of sed, awk or perlNaraht (talk) 20:37, 8 October 2009 (UTC)+

A-Phi-Q

Who calls Alpha Phi Omega "A-Phi-Q"? It's in the very first sentence of the article, but I have never heard this used. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.185.239.160 (talk) 05:37, 6 November 2009 (UTC)

It is a nickname mostly used by chapters at Historically black colleges and universities. Henrymrx (t·c) 07:00, 6 November 2009 (UTC)

I very much agree that it is mostly used at HBCUs. Does anyone have a reference for that? Also, does anyone have anything close to a guideline on APO vs. APhiO? I *think* APhiO is mostly a Region V thing, but I've heard mentions from Florida as well.Naraht (talk) 10:40, 8 November 2009 (UTC)

Coat of Arms vs. Crest

The change was made earlier today of the description of the image from Crest to Coat of Arms and then reverted. After looking at the Wikipedia articles for Coat of Arms and Crest (heraldry) and the fact that the National Office is *totally* inconsistent (though the ritual, story behind the founding *and* the bylaws all use Coat of Arms), I've changed it to Coat of Arms.

Just for clarification, I reverted it because it was annon, no reason to change, and couldn't see it making any difference either way. Assuming the above info about use in rituals and bylaws and story is true (don't have any of that stuff here), I have no problem with the change. Always heard it referred to as the crest, not Coat of Arms, including at regional and National meetings, but doesn't make it right or wrong. Maybe some way of listing it as both? Don't know if that is possible. Which will be les confusing to people should be the deciding factor. - IanCheesman (talk) 07:26, 11 November 2009 (UTC)

I understand. Well given that it only comes up if you hover over the image, I don't think it's that necessary to show both. If we have a section for the symbols of the fraternity then perhaps...Naraht (talk) 14:05, 12 November 2009 (UTC)

Future ideas for Alpha Phi Omega related articles.

Right now there are 13 articles in the Alpha Phi Omega category:

• Alpha Phi Omega
• Alpha Phi Omega (Philippines) Chapters and Alumni Associations
• Alpha Phi Omega national conventions
• Alpha Phi Omega chapters
• Alpha Phi Omega chapters (chronological)
• Alpha Phi Omega chapters (geographical)
• Harold Roe Bartle
• History of Alpha Phi Omega in the Philippines
• Frank Reed Horton
• List of Alpha Phi Omega members
• Template:Alpha Phi Omega (Philippines) National Presidents
• Template:Alpha Phi Omega (USA) National Presidents
• U. P. Oblation

The Alpha Phi Omega chapters (chronological) and Alpha Phi Omega chapters (geographical) chapter lists are transcluded onto the Alpha Phi Omega chapters list.

I'd like to eventually see a good deal more of the Alpha Phi Omega of the Philippines information moved over with the History of Alpha Phi Omega in the Philippines and the article renamed.

I'm not sure any of the other APO National presidents can support their own articles, though.

I think that the Oblation run can probably be expanded into its own article given the number of occurances which have happened recently at campuses which aren't part of the University of the Philippines.

Other ideas?Naraht (talk) 13:36, 22 December 2009 (UTC)