Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Football

shooting (association football)

please help me on this article shooting (association football), thank you. A10 (talk) 21:18, 21 August 2010 (UTC)

Football qualifying tables

Here is the final table of the Group 4 from UEFA's 2010 FIFA World Cup qualification.

Since Wikipedia has adopted the Vector skin as the default skin, I think it is the time to try to modify this template. I am talking in regards the fixtures table (on the right hand side) which is taking a slighter more space. If we can alter the size of the first column (showing the countries' names), we can reduce its size (from 165 to 145).

The "problem" is on names which are a bit long like "Bosnia and Herzegovina", which can be solved by writing "Bosnia & Herzegovina" or simply "Bosnia & Herz.". Let me know your opinions. —Chrisportelli (talk) 20:26, 11 August 2010 (UTC)

According to WP:MOSDASH, unspaced en dashes should be used for the score table, which would improve aesthetics in that section. I'd also use an em dash instead of an en dash for the "Wales v Wales" etc. table cells. — Andrwsc (talk · contribs) 20:46, 11 August 2010 (UTC)

I guess the above can be incorporated into the redesign. As for the main question, if the concern is length, and the table on the left continues to have the full country name, I guess the table on the right could just use flags? --WFC-- 00:19, 12 August 2010 (UTC)

Bearing in mind the above comments, and the fact that access guidelines suggest that where practicable we should accomodate for 800x600, how about the example below? --WFC-- 00:50, 12 August 2010 (UTC)

Team Pld W D L GF GA GD Pts Germany 10 8 2 0 26 5 +21 26 Russia 10 7 1 2 19 6 +13 22 Finland 10 5 3 2 14 14 0 18 Wales 10 4 0 6 9 12 −3 12 Azerbaijan 10 1 2 7 4 14 −10 5 Liechtenstein 10 0 2 8 2 23 −21 2

— 1–2 0–2 0–0 1–1 0–1 1–0 — 3–3 2–1 0–3 2–1 4–0 1–1 — 4–0 2–1 1–0 0–2 1–1 0–6 — 0–1 0–2 2–0 3–0 0–1 3–0 — 2–1 1–0 0–2 0–2 2–0 1–3 —

It would make a little more sense if the rows in the right table aligned with the rows in the left table. That is, vertically the teams would be ordered by point totals instead of alphabetically. Actually, there isn't much need to have two tables at all—take a look at the table I created at 1974 World Junior Ice Hockey Championships a couple of years ago. — Andrwsc (talk · contribs) 01:18, 12 August 2010 (UTC)

I agree with the suggestion that Germany should be the first country in the table on the right, Liechtenstein the last (I won't change the example- I'm sure people get the idea). Not sure about a single table though. Firstly because rowspan may (or may not, investigation is underway) cause issues with screen readers. Secondly because having two tables would make articles render quite nicely at even lower resolutions. That's a big plus for readers using handheld devices. --WFC-- 01:36, 12 August 2010 (UTC)

Ah yes, handhelds, good reason for two tables. My only remaining comment then is something I should have noticed before, and this has always been a pet peeve of mine. Text table columns should always be expressed in em-spacing units, not in pixels. They should scale with the user's preference for font size. So replace all the width=25 with style="width:2.2em" to have uniform width columns at every font size. (I actually see a 1 or 2 pixel difference between the GD and other columns in the current version.) As for the first column I think 14em looks about right. — Andrwsc (talk · contribs) 02:04, 12 August 2010 (UTC)

Makes sense. I'm still getting used to coding in em, it's like converting from imperial to metric. I'll continue to persevere, because it's clearly a better way of doing things. --WFC-- 03:13, 12 August 2010 (UTC)

I think we could make it easier for people with poor eyesight who now have to squint to work out which flag is which in the right hand table, or use the wikilinks. Why not keep the right hand table's column of flags in the same order as the left hand table? Then it's easy. --Dweller (talk) 08:02, 12 August 2010 (UTC)

But then we would have to change the order of the results table every time the points table changes order. In my opinion, we should keep the results table sorted either alphabetically or by the pot each team was drawn from when the group draw was made; alphabetical order is certainly easier. – PeeJay 12:35, 12 August 2010 (UTC)

Then I don't think you should discard the team names for the sake of a bit of width. --Dweller (talk) 12:37, 12 August 2010 (UTC)

People with poor eye-sight have the opportunity to increase the size of the display. --Walter Görlitz (talk) 13:52, 12 August 2010 (UTC)

Flags should not serve as a short-hand for names of countries. God forbid Russia, Netherlands, Serbia, Slovenia, Slovakia and Luxembourg get drawn in a group together, or that we cover a West African tournament involving Mali, Senegal, Guinea, Guinea-Bissau, Ghana, Burkina Faso and Benin. Kevin McE (talk) 15:11, 12 August 2010 (UTC)

I think once a tournament is resolved then there should be no obstruction to removing some of the extraneous naming if the results are tallied up in the same row as the appropriate country. If we're going to start pulling the "flags aren't clear" business then how do we explain the lack of names across the top of each box too? At some point we have to consider our readers are not stupid. So long as the table is clear, and the flag is previously connected to the name, then we shouldn't have to keep bringing up the country name again and again and again. If we're going to start working on the basis that people are ignorant of their world flags, so we need to spell it out for them then simply hovering over the countries flag should bring up the name of the country.

How many encyclopedias list the same team, and flag repeatedly just because people might be a bit thick?Koncorde (talk) 15:21, 12 August 2010 (UTC)

Precisely because people aren't "thick" we don't need to repeat the flag names across the top, because they appear in the same order. We should and do consider our partially-sighted readers in our quality work on this encyclopedia, so it should be ingrained in standardised templates. --Dweller (talk) 16:21, 12 August 2010 (UTC)

Just to reiterate, this is not a question of people "being thick" - they might not be seeing the flags at all, take a look at WP:COLOR and WP:MOSICON. Mouse-over isn't always an option either, and I've seen numerous problems with the rendering of templates and alt-text in certain tables (rendering is normally fine in the body-text, but icon use is less useful there). It's not that the flags shouldn't be used, it's just that if it's reasonably convenient to make the information more widely accessible, then we should. I would say adding the name on the row label is reasonably convenient. Using the trigramme for the column label instead of the flag may be fairly innocuous too, so I've proposed it below. Knepflerle (talk) 13:19, 18 August 2010 (UTC)

There is more chance of me unilaterally achieving world peace by midnight than there is of this (adjective) opinion-driven flag "conversation" being in any way productive. My proposal may need to be scrapped for other reasons, but it meets the established guidelines on flags. If you disagree with those, do something about it. --WFC-- 17:00, 12 August 2010 (UTC)

What about using the three-letter country codes in the results table as a compromise? Invisibletr (talk) 17:17, 12 August 2010 (UTC)

WFCforLife, as well as calming down, you need to scroll down a bit on the MOS page. You'll find the relevant section at Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style_(icons)#Accompany_flags_with_country_names. I appreciate what you're trying to do, but saving a few cm of width shouldn't be achieved at the expense of making the encyclopedia less accessible. --Dweller (talk) 17:21, 12 August 2010 (UTC)

I have remained civil and rational. I won't hold my breath, but would be grateful if you recognised that, refrained from trying to discredit me, and stuck to the matter at hand. Moving on, the very section you have quoted begins: The name of a flag's country (or province, etc.) should appear adjacent to the first use of the flag icon, as not all readers are familiar with all flags. Nearby uses of the flag need not repeat the name. It goes on to say that if the flags are repeated far away, the country name should probably be repeated. The wording is about as unambiguous as my previous edit or edit summary, which is a rare thing indeed in the Manual of Style. --WFC-- 18:36, 12 August 2010 (UTC)

And surprisingly agrees with my opinion too. Do we actually have any suggestion that the tables are somehow less clear if we remove the text, but align them with the teams final standings as Andrwsc suggested?Koncorde (talk) 19:39, 12 August 2010 (UTC)

Update: I failed to achieve world peace. --WFC-- 13:42, 13 August 2010 (UTC)

As usual, I'd prefer the name to be used because in some instances the flagicon may not render or appear at all - then you're left with a table with no row/column markings that isn't any use at all. As long as the tables are separate so that they can be put on separate lines on a narrow display, we really aren't losing anything by including the country name. I'm not claiming in this case that the name is mandated by policy (as it is for the separate squad tables issue, as the flags have usually not been introduces anywhere prevously), but I do think it's a very sensible idea. Knepflerle (talk) 13:06, 18 August 2010 (UTC)

Could the column label flag be replaced with the trigramme? Knepflerle (talk) 13:19, 18 August 2010 (UTC)

For example:

Team Pld W D L GF GA GD Pts Germany 10 8 2 0 26 5 +21 26 Russia 10 7 1 2 19 6 +13 22 Finland 10 5 3 2 14 14 0 18 Wales 10 4 0 6 9 12 −3 12 Azerbaijan 10 1 2 7 4 14 −10 5 Liechtenstein 10 0 2 8 2 23 −21 2

AZE FIN GER LIE RUS WAL Azerbaijan – 1 – 2 0 – 2 0 – 0 1 – 1 0 – 1 Finland 1 – 0 – 3 – 3 2 – 1 0 – 3 2 – 1 Germany 4 – 0 1 – 1 – 4 – 0 2 – 1 1 – 0 Liechtenstein 0 – 2 1 – 1 0 – 6 – 0 – 1 0 – 2 Russia 2 – 0 3 – 0 0 – 1 3 – 0 – 2 – 1 Wales 1 – 0 0 – 2 0 – 2 2 – 0 1 – 3 –

or narrower still, for to help with width conerns:

Team Pld W D L GF GA GD Pts Germany 10 8 2 0 26 5 +21 26 Russia 10 7 1 2 19 6 +13 22 Finland 10 5 3 2 14 14 0 18 Wales 10 4 0 6 9 12 −3 12 Azerbaijan 10 1 2 7 4 14 −10 5 Liechtenstein 10 0 2 8 2 23 −21 2

AZE FIN GER LIE RUS WAL AZE – 1 – 2 0 – 2 0 – 0 1 – 1 0 – 1 FIN 1 – 0 – 3 – 3 2 – 1 0 – 3 2 – 1 GER 4 – 0 1 – 1 – 4 – 0 2 – 1 1 – 0 LIE 0 – 2 1 – 1 0 – 6 – 0 – 1 0 – 2 RUS 2 – 0 3 – 0 0 – 1 3 – 0 – 2 – 1 WAL 1 – 0 0 – 2 0 – 2 2 – 0 1 – 3 –

How are those? Either has more universally accessible information than what we're currently using. Knepflerle (talk) 13:32, 18 August 2010 (UTC)

That seems to work pretty well. --Dweller (talk) 23:16, 18 August 2010 (UTC)

Ossett Albion

The club is called Ossett Albion A.F.C., with Ossett Albion F.C. as a redirect. However, for some reason, two player categories exist - Category:Ossett Albion A.F.C. players and Category:Ossett Albion F.C. players. I'm literally about to leave the house for the weekend, so can someone please have a look and try and rectify? Thanks, GiantSnowman 10:13, 14 August 2010 (UTC)

I've emptied the Category:Ossett Albion F.C. players but I've no idea how it should be deleted. Daemonic Kangaroo (talk) 15:30, 14 August 2010 (UTC)

Empty categories can be speedy deleted under criteria C1. Bettia (talk) 15:42, 14 August 2010 (UTC)

Thanks - speedy applied for. Daemonic Kangaroo (talk) 16:11, 14 August 2010 (UTC)

Cheers guys! GiantSnowman 10:31, 15 August 2010 (UTC)

SuperSonicx1986 socking?

Can someone take a look here? It could be a WP:DUCK case, but I haven't edited in the subject area, and am not completely familiar with the editor's patterns. Dabomb87 (talk) 18:55, 14 August 2010 (UTC)

If blocks are necessary, please take a look at 68.218.61.233 (talk · contribs · WHOIS) as well. Dabomb87 (talk) 18:58, 14 August 2010 (UTC)

Both blocked. Thank you. Rettetast (talk) 19:28, 14 August 2010 (UTC)

68.217.79.77 (talk · contribs · WHOIS) too, thanks. Dabomb87Public (talk) 17:31, 15 August 2010 (UTC)

He is socking, and socking big time. SuperSonix1986, better known to most people here as User:Jamen Somasu, is creating new IP addresses almost on a daily basis and uses those IP addresses to evade his block. For anyone here primarily editing South American football article, keep a keen eye out for his block evasion. Digirami (talk) 19:22, 20 August 2010 (UTC)

And I had seriously thought Jamen had learned his lesson when I saw his ban lifted a while ago. And now I come back to Wikipedia to find out he is still at his old game. A shame really. He did a lot for the South American scene but he is too hot-headed. --MicroX (talk) 03:13, 21 August 2010 (UTC)

Mikel Arteta eligibility for England

Is he eligible for England or not?

For some reason I'm under the impression that as he was a Spanish u21 international and did not have British(England) eligibility at that time then he can not change allegiance. Am I correct? TheBigJagielka (talk) 02:59, 15 August 2010 (UTC)

That was true up until last year when FIFA lifted the age limit. See here under "Change of association (art. 18 of the Regulations Governing the Application of the FIFA Statutes)". So, if Arteta gets a British passport and doesn't play for Spain any time soon then he can be called-up. I wouldn't mind either, other countries do it (Amauri with Italy the most recent), and Arteta is a class act. The rule change allowed one of our players to play for his country of birth at the World Cup, having represented England at youth level. Argyle 4 Life^talk 04:33, 15 August 2010 (UTC)

Actually, the Home Nations have a "gentleman's agreement" that says that they will only pick players based on their bloodline. So although Arteta would be eligible to play for any of the Home Nations if he got a British passport, none of them would pick him because he is not British by birth. – PeeJay 08:59, 15 August 2010 (UTC)

I always thought that meant they wouldn't pick British-born players with no bloodline connection to their country, e.g. that Scotland wouldn't pick an Englishman with no Scottish blood? cheers, Struway2 (talk) 09:06, 15 August 2010 (UTC)

By extension, wouldn't that mean they wouldn't pick any player who has no bloodline connection to their country? – PeeJay 09:26, 15 August 2010 (UTC)

Wouldn't have thought so. As I understand it, the gentlemen's agreement was just to prevent poaching among the Home Nations and doesn't extend outside that. Northern Ireland pick Maik Taylor (English on his father's side, German on his mother's, German-born). cheers, Struway2 (talk) 09:42, 15 August 2010 (UTC)

Struway - no, that's not the way the agreement works. I mean, Freddy Eastwood plays for Wakes even though he is only eligible because his grandfather, who was from a travelling family, was born there! It just means that foreign players who moved over here in their 20s who gain British citizenship won't be called up - which is why Capello hasn't picked Cudicini/Almunia to sort out England's goalkeeping crisis! And why Nacho Novo isn't banging goals in for Scotland...GiantSnowman 10:22, 15 August 2010 (UTC)

I appear to be talking at cross-purposes with both you and PeeJay, sorry. The agreement you're on about, and would indeed be relevant to Arteta, dates from 1993 re-stated 2004,it says here. Apologies for talking before making sure I'm talking about the same thing as everybody else :-( cheers, Struway2 (talk) 12:52, 15 August 2010 (UTC)

It was changed last year to allow players who have attended school for five years in a country to be selected (see Andrew Driver). Jmorrison230582 (talk) 17:59, 15 August 2010 (UTC)

Indeed. Arteta is eligible for England under the current ruling, and the only thing preventing that is the nativist tabloids the fine tradition of respecting national guidelines that England ignored when poaching Owen Hargreaves England have been at pains to respect. Chris Cunningham (user:thumperward: not at work) - talk 20:24, 18 August 2010 (UTC)

2010–11 Bristol City F.C. season TOTAL ATTENDANCE

Hey. Can I ask a quick question?? On my Bristol City season page. On the Season Stats (6 SEASON STATS) where its says total attendence, is that Home + Away Attendence or just home + home + home etc. Or home + home fans away from home attendence? Thanks tom Tomparfitt17 (talk) 13:06, 15 August 2010 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Tomparfitt17 (talk • contribs)

Um, didn't you add that section yourself? If you don't know then hell if I know. Total home attendance seems a less pointless statistic than how many people turned up to watch home and away so I changed it to reflect 'Total home attendance'.--EchetusXe 15:32, 15 August 2010 (UTC)

Squad templates - when is enough enough?

I just cleaned up Template:Nantwich Town F.C. squad for the squad members of Nantwich Town of the Northern Premier League after it had looked like this since December of last year. Frankly I can't be bothered to add the current squad as I don't see the point in a template that will always be out of date and only added to a couple of players articles. Here is one at the same level with a completely alien layout. Here is one without any articles to go on. Here is a sensible non-league template.

I would say we need a sort out. I would suggest that if the level the club competes at doesn't issue player numbers then a squad template is a waste of time. Any thoughts?--EchetusXe 18:44, 15 August 2010 (UTC)

Totally agree. Not surprising that the Goldsworth Park Rangers template doesn't have any player articles to go on; even the team isn't notable! Teams in Level 7 of the English league system (NPL, Isthmian, Southern League) and maybe even Level 6 (Conference North/South) change their personnel so regularly that it is almost impossible to keep the templates updated. Add this to the fact that 99% of the players in those divisions have never played professionally and so fail the notability guideline shows clearly that these templates are serving no useful purpose. That Northwich one is especially horrible, although it isn't the first I've seen to have that layout. Not sure whether I agree that clubs without squad numbers should be denied a template because of my own experiences with Chamois Niortais - last season they didn't have squad numbers but the template was still used on about 15 articles and it would be similar with other French CFA teams if anyone had created the templates, as about 30-40% of the players have played professionally. That said, the no squad numbers rule may be a good yardstick for English clubs even if it doesn't apply to other countries. Definitely agree that there should be some sort of minimum criteria though. BigDom 19:26, 15 August 2010 (UTC)

P.S. have nominated the Goldsworth Park Rangers template for deletion here. Also have a problem with templates like this, which unnecessarily encourage people to write about non-notable semi-professional players. BigDom 19:32, 15 August 2010 (UTC)

What is the purpose of squad templates? Really it is to link notable players. Therefore I feel we should keep club squad templates to fully-professional leagues, just as we keep international squad templates to top-level senior competitions! GiantSnowman 20:01, 15 August 2010 (UTC)

Oh and no-squad-number templates are fine - the Dutch 2nd division doesn't have squad numbers but is a fully-pro league with many notable players linked! GiantSnowman 20:03, 15 August 2010 (UTC)

I feel the Conference would be fine with having squad templates, but below that players are not numbered, that is why I feel numbers are a good basis for deciding notability. But I do feel that we should decide a cut-off point in English football at least, I would say below national level then no templates allowed. Which I believe is what happened with club seasons, which in the past were also getting out of hand.--EchetusXe 20:42, 15 August 2010 (UTC)

I agree with Echetus as far as England goes. Generally I go with the thinking that a template needs five or six distinct bluelinks. Obviously a TfD the moment a team goes to four players might sometimes be unhelpful, but as a rule of thumb I think it's a good starting point. --WFC-- 20:49, 15 August 2010 (UTC)

NB there aren't squad numbers in the Scottish Football League First Division, which is mostly professional (8/10 teams this year). Jmorrison230582 (talk) 21:01, 15 August 2010 (UTC)

So, the national leagues as a rule of thumb with other clubs being allowed on the basis that they have sufficient notable players? Sounds OK to me. BigDom 21:04, 15 August 2010 (UTC)

Maybe restricting it to professional national leagues would be a better idea. After all, we shouldn't start creating squad navboxes for the Sammarinese national league. – PeeJay 23:04, 15 August 2010 (UTC)

Agree with what Dom said, plus the word professional to prevent the sorts of cases PeeJay mentions. In practise, most or all Conference templates would end up staying on the grounds of sufficient bluelinks. If any didn't, they weren't that useful anyway. --WFC-- 23:31, 15 August 2010 (UTC)

That's exactly what the cut-off point should be - usefulness. GiantSnowman 06:04, 16 August 2010 (UTC)

There are no twenty squad templates up for deletion here, would appreciate some input there. The following 10 Conference North/South templates are NOT up for deletion as of yet: Template:A.F.C. Telford United squad, Template:Boston United F.C. squad, Template:Droylsden F.C. squad, Template:Ebbsfleet United F.C. squad, Template:Gainsborough Trinity F.C. squad, Template:Harrogate Town F.C. squad, Template:Hyde United F.C. squad, Template:Stalybridge Celtic F.C. squad, Template:Welling United F.C. squad, and Template:Woking F.C. squad.--EchetusXe 14:50, 19 August 2010 (UTC)

Category:Lists of association football players by national team

There are three examples at the above category page (namely England, Scotland, Wales) where a full list of all internationals to have played for that country exists as an article (with players listed in alphabetical order) but the article name is given an '(alphabetical)' suffix, whereas there is also an alternative page that only lists players who have reached a set threshold of caps, but this latter page is not given any suffix. As an example see List of England international footballers (alphabetical) and List of England international footballers, the latter only listing players with 30 caps or more. I would like to either make the 'complete' listings the master article (with no suffix), and a suffix be added to the qualified list, or for a suffix to be added to both lists, as this would be a more accurate descriptor of what the pages are.

Additionally I would like to ask an admin to move the page history of List of Wales international footballers to List of Wales international footballers (alphabetical) following recent changes, although hopefully this would only need to be done as a short term measure, depending on people's views on the above.

Please note I am the original creator of the Wales page (the one now called 'alphabetical'). Eldumpo (talk) 19:40, 6 August 2010 (UTC)

The talk page for List of Wales international footballers will also need moving to List of Wales international footballers (alphabetical). Daemonic Kangaroo (talk) 19:47, 6 August 2010 (UTC)

Why on earth do we need two lists? The 25+ caps one is totally redundant, given that the big one is sortable. I say AfD the smaller one, and move List of England international footballers (alphabetical) → List of England international footballers. --WFC-- 21:07, 6 August 2010 (UTC)

If you look at the selective lists of Germany players or Scotland players, they add a lot more useful information than just the number of caps and goals scored. If those lists were expanded to include every player capped for those countries, their length would become a serious issue (both lists are around 70,000 bytes in size at present, and will for obvious reasons only get bigger, unless the selection criteria is tightened). I think it is comparable to the situation with club lists of players, where the main article is generally a selective list that provides comprehensive information about all the important players in a club's history, with daughter articles providing comprehensive lists of all players with a lower number of appearances. Jmorrison230582 (talk) 10:22, 7 August 2010 (UTC)

I understand your concern about page size, but does that argue for one list or two? It seems like one list is the most reader-friendly approach, but might lead to a need for different inclusion criteria for each national team's list. Jogurney (talk) 22:58, 16 August 2010 (UTC)

I have re-posted the above thread which had just moved into Footy archive in order to try and gain wider views, and hopefully move towards a consensus/agreed actions for some of the points. I would welcome any comments/observations you have. Thanks. Eldumpo (talk) 07:18, 16 August 2010 (UTC)

Al-Ahly

An editor has moved Al-Ahly to Al-Ahly Cairo for some reason, with no discussion. The club's name isn't even Al-Ahly Cairo anyway. Could an admin move it back, please? Ta. Ilikeeatingwaffles (talk) 09:42, 16 August 2010 (UTC)

I moved it back. oh dear... I'm guessing all those should be reversed as well?--EchetusXe 10:02, 16 August 2010 (UTC)

Has a smiliarly worrying contrib history on French Wikipedia as well. BigDom 10:06, 16 August 2010 (UTC)

As there are several clubs known as Al-Ahly or Al-Ahli (see Al-Ahly (disambiguation), why is the Cairo club not at Al-Ahly (Cairo)? Daemonic Kangaroo (talk) 10:48, 16 August 2010 (UTC)

I'm pretty sure that the Egyptian club is easily the most well-known of these clubs, which is why its been at Al-Ahly for a fair while. Ilikeeatingwaffles (talk) 10:55, 16 August 2010 (UTC)

Yeah, if the Egyptians were polytheistic today then I'm pretty sure that Al-Ahly would be the god of football.--EchetusXe 20:34, 16 August 2010 (UTC)

The same user made several other moves which induce head-scratching (like moving Al-Qadisiya Al-Ordon to Jordan Youth Club - should we move Eintracht Frankfurt to "Unity Frankfurt"?) without any discussion. How do we deal with all of these moves? Jogurney (talk) 22:50, 16 August 2010 (UTC)

I'll reverse those that seem to make no sense and on his talk page I invited him to come and discuss the moves with us here.--EchetusXe 00:21, 17 August 2010 (UTC)

Hi to all, I saw some problemes to name some arab football clubs, I agree (Daemonic Kangaroo) and I think there are several clubs known as Al-Ahly or Al-Ahli, and some are famouse like Al-Ahli (Jeddah), (Dubai) or (Tripoli), and to differe between them, it's a good idea to put "Al-Ahly Club (Cairo)" , i add "Club" because it's the complete nomination of the team.
For the club (Jordan Youth Club), if you want to put the arab name, the true name is "Nadi Shabab Al-Ordon" not "Shabab Al-Ordon Al-Qadisiya".
--Faycal.09 (talk) 16:56, 17 August 2010 (UTC)

You think it's such a good idea that you have now moved the article to Al-Ahly Club (Cairo), without discussion. I note the on the club's badge it just says "Al-Ahly", rather than "Al-Ahly Club". Ilikeeatingwaffles (talk) 15:13, 17 August 2010 (UTC)

You've moved the article of a major African club twice in two days without discussion? *sigh* Argyle 4 Life^talk 15:30, 17 August 2010 (UTC)

Moved back. Faycal.09, please don't move this page again without a clear consensus that it's the right thing to do. Chris Cunningham (user:thumperward: not at work) - talk 19:46, 18 August 2010 (UTC)

Sorry if I offense you, Al Ahly is a great team of caurse, however there are many teams in the arab world which caled same, we must differe between them. 2nd, in arabic language, the team is caled (Nadi Al-Ahly - نادي الأهلي) wich mean Al-Ahly Club and it's the real and complete name of the team. Hope you understand that and sorry for moving the article. --Faycal.09 (talk) 00:10, 19 August 2010 (UTC)

This is the English-language Wikipedia, so we generally title articles using the common names in English. The Egyptian football club is almost always referred to as "Al-Ahly" in English sources, and I can't say I've ever seen "Nadi Al-Ahly" used by an English news or other source. Jogurney (talk) 22:59, 18 August 2010 (UTC)

Dozens of similar examples

As alluded to above, the vast majority of Faycal.09's edits on en-WP since his registration a month ago have been page moves, many of which have been questionable (such as moving clubs to English transliterated titles not in common English use, or moving common names to disambiguated titles). Anyone with a better knowledge of the local subject matter want to have a look at this log and provide suggestions? Chris Cunningham (user:thumperward: not at work) - talk 19:54, 18 August 2010 (UTC)

Flags in national team infoboxs

Would someone please give me a hand in removing the flags from the title bars of all of the national team infoboxes? According to WP:MOSFLAG, we're not supposed to use flagicons for decoration, so using the {{fb}} template at the top of the infobox is inappropriate. – PeeJay 11:42, 16 August 2010 (UTC)

I'll give you a hand, I've done a few already... :) JMHamo (talk) 13:03, 16 August 2010 (UTC)

Duplicate stadium?

Are Estadio La Libertad and Estadio de Bata the same stadium? The Estadio de Bata lists a reference which says the Women's African Championship was held at Estadio La Libertad and the photograph on WorldStadiums also says it is Estadio La Libertad but Tadpolefarmer has changed coordinates of the stadia. TheBigJagielka (talk) 14:57, 16 August 2010 (UTC)

Intercontinental cup = FIFA Club World Cup?

Hiya. During the FLC of List of FC Barcelona records and statistics the question is brought whether the Intercontinental Cup is considered the predecessor to the FIFA CWC. I cannot find many sources saying one or the other so I'll put the question to this forum. Perhaps it will surprise me. Sandman888 (talk) ^{Latest FAC} 15:06, 16 August 2010 (UTC)

Pretty sure this has been discussed here before in the last year or so. RSSSF say "Although FIFA organised their own world club championship in 2000, featuring teams from all confederations, the Toyota Cup continued until the final edition in 2004, with FIFA taking over in 2005 for the second edition of their own tournament (originally scheduled for 2001)." which implies it is not a direct descendant. our own FIFA Club World Cup article states "It was intended by FIFA to be a replacement for the Intercontinental Cup" but that is not cited. Have a read of that article and it's sources, which say an agreement was reached between to two factions--ClubOranje^T 09:31, 17 August 2010 (UTC)

I would say they aren't. Keep them separate. --MicroX (talk) 03:07, 21 August 2010 (UTC)

Leslie Walter Minter, Chelsea and Napoli player, around 1920

do you have news about him? Rsssf writes he was born in 1890, he played at Chelsea FC London around 1910 and maybe was one of the first Società Sportiva Calcio Napoli players.. 93.33.2.171 (talk) 19:10, 16 August 2010 (UTC)

He's not listed on the Chelsea player database [1]. Daemonic Kangaroo (talk) 19:25, 16 August 2010 (UTC)

is it possible London had 2 different Chelsea clubs, 100 years ago? If you're english, is possible for foreigners asking (in UK) UK dead people personal data? I'd love to find more news about italian football's english fathers.. 93.33.2.171 (talk) 20:41, 16 August 2010 (UTC)

Nobody with that exact name has ever been born in England or Wales (since 1837 at least). The first Leslie Minter was a Leslie F. Minter born near Blythburgh, Suffolk in 1895, and none of the later ones seem to match up either. BigDom 20:53, 16 August 2010 (UTC)

thank you very much for your very important help! So last hope is he was born outside England or Wales, something like Ireland or USA.. because the pioneers in italian wikipedia we found an american, Howard Passadoro, so Minter can be the second american.. between the pioneers.. 93.33.2.171 (talk) 21:08, 16 August 2010 (UTC)

Disambiguation question

What is the best way to distinguish a football player (this fella) from a football referee (article yet to be created in en, this fella in de) with the same name? Note: The disambiguation page is already in place as there is also a luger with this name. --Soccer-holic^{I hear voices in my head...} 19:59, 16 August 2010 (UTC)

Why not Markus Schmidt (footballer) and Markus Schmidt (referee)? Or if you were really dabbing, Markus Schmidt (football referee)? The Rambling Man (talk) 20:07, 16 August 2010 (UTC)

These are exactly the two variants between which I couldn't decide myself, so I will wait for more comments on the matter. xD --Soccer-holic^{I hear voices in my head...} 20:45, 16 August 2010 (UTC)

I'd think Markus Schmidt (referee) would be fine until such time as there are two articles for referees named Markus Schmidt (say one in football and one in basketball). Simianvector (talk) 20:56, 16 August 2010 (UTC)

Scott Sutter

Boyhood Spurs fan Scott Sutter plays for BSC Young Boys in Switzerland. Young Boys are due to play Tottenham in the Champions League. I am in dispute with an IP editor as to whether a player facing a club he used to support is worthy of inclusion in an article. I believe that it's somewhat crufty. Any input into the discussion here would be greatly appreciated. Ilikeeatingwaffles (talk) 22:04, 16 August 2010 (UTC)

It's likely notable, if it's mentioned or focused upon in the media. I've read a few articles about him since the matches were announced and they revolved around the fact that he was an unknown Englishman and a Spurs supporter. It certainly isn't detrimental to mention it in passing, particularly if he has a quote to go with it i.e. "a dream come true" or whatever. Koncorde (talk) 10:23, 18 August 2010 (UTC)

Every time a lower league team faces one of the best supported clubs in the FA Cup there's always a couple of players who are excited about playing against the team they used to supported as a boy, but that doesn't make it a noteworthy occurrence.Ilikeeatingwaffles (talk) 12:41, 18 August 2010 (UTC)

Nationality

I notice that Scott Sutter is listed with an English flag at BSC Young Boys#Current squad, despite his last national team representation being for Switzerland. At what point are we going to formulate a set of rules for assigning one nation to each player, apply it consistently, and link to it so that the reader of our articles know why we've picked the nation we have picked?

I propose this selection method: 1) Use the nation of most recent national team representation. 2) If no national team represented, use the nation of the place of birth.

Simple and easily sourceable. We might consider having exceptional cases where we use a different rule, but these should be explicitly indicated with a footnote in the squad table so that the reader can easily find out why we have changed from the default. Knepflerle (talk) 11:51, 18 August 2010 (UTC)

There is already an official guideline. Use of flags for sportspeople. Changes to these rules would have to be proposed on the talk page there. Using birthplace is unlikely to be considered an acceptable change though. Camw (talk) 11:56, 18 August 2010 (UTC)

Errm... that guideline may exist, but does not in any way reflect practice on this project's articles. That guideline says flags should reflect a player's "representative nationality", but this is only clear for players who have played for a national team - most players have not. Policy should reflect practice, which in this case is that place of birth is used for players without a national cap. If you want to rephrase the question in terms of the guideline at MOS:FLAG, how are we going to determine the players' "representative nationality" when they've never played for a national team? Knepflerle (talk) 12:59, 18 August 2010 (UTC)

They actually say "If a sportsperson has not competed at the international level, then the eligibility rules of the international sport governing body (such as IRB, FIFA, IAAF, etc.) should be used. If these rules allow a player to represent two or more nations, then a reliable source should be used to show who the sportsperson has chosen to represent." If the rule doesn't reflect usage, then either the guideline or the usage needs to change, but guideline change will have to be agreed by more than this subset of the community. Camw (talk) 23:46, 18 August 2010 (UTC)

The answer to the original question is "not any time soon". As for which flag to use, ideally we'd use none, but until such point as the world runs out of nationalists (or Sutter gets an England call-up) it'll have to be Switzerland. Chris Cunningham (user:thumperward: not at work) - talk 19:41, 18 August 2010 (UTC)

How about this line from his own page though? "It hit me when I was in a bar supporting England with all my mates, wearing my England shirt and I knew that the next week I was going to be playing for Switzerland. It just didn't feel right. I was English" 91.106.114.115 (talk) 17:01, 20 August 2010 (UTC)

problem.

The Croatian Prva HNL which was formed in 1991 has had some problematic things on its page. Some users have added results from world war two, when nazi croatia had its own league. I have removed some information that does not belong on the page. However, that is not enough, as there is still plenty there. I seek help. Please, could people go there to help improve the page? (LAz17 (talk) 04:45, 17 August 2010 (UTC)).

Neil Ruddock and Andrew Cole

Can someone take a look at the additions made by an IP to these two articles, regarding Ruddock allegedly deliberately breaking both of Cole's legs. Is the video used as a citation an acceptable reference - can this be backed up from another reliable source? Thanks. Daemonic Kangaroo (talk) 06:45, 17 August 2010 (UTC)

The quote is probably enough to keep us free from legal action, but the tone seems to be of image building via the media rather than honest admission. He was talking to tablod radio, not to his psychologist/solicitor/confessor. Probably fairer to say something like "an injury that Ruddock later described as deliberately inflicted" and then link to the interview. (But that is more verifiable than the claim on the Cole article that his recovery was miraculous, or the hyperbole on Ruddock's article about events apparently equivalent to those of the 1790s; I'm glad my watchlist features lower profile players with more sensible articles) Kevin McE (talk) 09:38, 17 August 2010 (UTC)

I changed Coles article already removing the hyperbole and changing the Ruddick quote to claimed.--ClubOranje^T 11:14, 17 August 2010 (UTC)

In the actual interview he states "I didn't actually mean to break his legs...just one of them" and is clearly joking. He clearly intended to take him out, but claiming he did it intentionally without the context (even using the word "claimed") doesn't make it particularly clear.Koncorde (talk) 21:51, 17 August 2010 (UTC)

List of footballers in England and Scotland by number of league goals

I just added a few dozen to this list, and I am sure there are numerous more players who should be on the list but aren't. It is a ten month old article and yet just today I added names such as Arthur Rowley, Dixie Dean and Brian Clough. Even if you just go on to add players who played for your particular club to the list then that would be helpful. See also List of footballers in England and Scotland by number of league appearances.

Also a gentle reminder that the squad templates nominated for deletion could use a few more of you guys to put in your two cents - here. A few have no 'delete' or 'keep' votes yet.--EchetusXe 13:45, 17 August 2010 (UTC)

Why England and Scotland? These are two completely separate league systems. Ilikeeatingwaffles (talk) 14:15, 17 August 2010 (UTC)

It seems odd to me as well that two different countries are grouped together. BigDom 08:36, 18 August 2010 (UTC)

Because the sources used on the articles list both English and Scottish leagues, such as the Post War English & Scottish Football League A - Z Player's Database, and because many players spent their careers in both countries. GiantSnowman 18:48, 18 August 2010 (UTC)

But you are mixing the stats of two completely separate league systems. Should the League of Wales be included too? Why should Jimmmy Greaves and Ian Rush's goals in Italy not count when Tony Hateley's in Scotland do? Ilikeeatingwaffles (talk) 21:03, 18 August 2010 (UTC)

If you have a reliable source for LoW or LoI stats, then we can extend it to the whole of Britain...GiantSnowman 21:13, 18 August 2010 (UTC)

That sounds even dafter. Mixing stats from different league systems just doesn't make sense. Plenty of players have been at both Spanish and Portuguese clubs, but I'm sure you must see that there would be no merit in List of footballers in Spain and Portugal by number of league appearances, and the same for Germany and the Netherlands, for instance. Ilikeeatingwaffles (talk) 08:23, 19 August 2010 (UTC)

I know, I was just being an arse ;) - but to reiterate, the reason we agreed on England and Scotland (the discussion is buried in the archives somewhere) was because the sources used for League stats often document English and Scottish together. GiantSnowman 18:34, 19 August 2010 (UTC)

Formatting question - does anyone know how to add a number column to these tables which automatically adjusts when new entries are added? I'm thinking we could maybe rank the players, so that their articles can add something like "Johnny Jones is currently 4th in number of League appearances and 8th in number of League goals in England and Scotland"...? GiantSnowman 20:20, 18 August 2010 (UTC)

You can't, at least not with regular wikitable syntax. Chris Cunningham (user:thumperward: not at work) - talk 23:11, 18 August 2010 (UTC)

Sourcing

Hi all I have a question regarding sourcing I'd like your input on. In completing my topic on Barcelona I've come across great difficulties regarding managers, see List of FC Barcelona managers. Until recently I had sources on all of the liga stats, but then historico.sportec.es went down 10 days ago. That was bad. However, there do exist good sources on the entry/exit dates of managers on the es.wiki list.

My question is, would it be defensible to link to http://www.lfp.es/?tabid=113&Controltype=cale&idDivision=1&idTemporada=28 (other seasons available through the search button) as a general ref of how many games the manager managed, given the dates are correct as sourced to elmundodeportivo? Sandman888 (talk) ^{Latest FAC} 15:38, 17 August 2010 (UTC)

Any admins about please

could you have a look at this AfD. The articles listed are all created by a user who appears to be the latest of many incarnations of this blocked user, whose disruption involves the serial creation of articles about non-notable reserve-team players generally madeup of copyvio of their club profiles, invention of "facts" to make them look notable, and insertion of said "facts" in other articles as backup. If the articles listed at AfD are indeed by a blocked user evading their block, do they still have to go through the AfD procedure, or could they be summarily deleted? Also, I don't know how these things work, but is there nothing can be done to actually stop him keep registering new accounts? cheers, Struway2 (talk) 10:40, 18 August 2010 (UTC)

Looking into it. Blocked the new account as a sock. Woody (talk) 10:48, 18 August 2010 (UTC)

Thanks, Struway2 (talk) 11:06, 18 August 2010 (UTC)

Not the brightest when it comes to inventing clandestine usernames, is he? Kevin McE (talk) 14:21, 18 August 2010 (UTC)

Looks like he's forgotten that this account hasn't been blocked yet. Alzarian16 (talk) 14:24, 18 August 2010 (UTC)

Speaking about AfDs; I'm sorry but I have no idea how to start one. I've found two players that fail WP:ATHLETE during the last days: Damián Martínez (Argentina U-17 goalkeeper, only youth division games) and Branko de Tellería (fourth goalkeeper of an Argentine team, no professional games). If anyone can help I'd be grateful. Regards. Fache (talk) 15:24, 18 August 2010 (UTC)

Enable WP:TWINKLE, creates AfDs with the click of a button. Sandman888 (talk) ^{Latest PR} 15:58, 18 August 2010 (UTC)

Thanks, I'll check it out. Fache (talk) 23:44, 18 August 2010 (UTC)

So, all socks blocked and tagged, there is now a sockpuppet category to trace him. I closed the AFD as a SNOW delete given the user's history. I also prodded another article and someone might want to have a look at Christopher Buchtmann and see whether it should be AfD'd.

In answer to your question, even if it is a blocked user evading their block, there still needs to be an AFD. If he was eventually banned then all edits can be reverted on sight. In terms of stopping him creating accounts, not much can be done whilst the socks are still pretty obvious. Just report him to AIV or leave a note on my talkpage. If he persists we could ask for a checkuser to find the underlying IP or we could create an editfilter. Regards. Woody (talk) 09:04, 19 August 2010 (UTC)

Kypello Ellados OPAP 2010–11 --> 2010–11 Greek Cup

Could some kind admin please move Kypello Ellados OPAP 2010–11 to 2010–11 Greek Cup? I would do it myself, but I get a "move not possible" notice. Thanks in advance, Soccer-holic^{I hear voices in my head...} 14:03, 18 August 2010 (UTC)

Help, anyone? As an additional incentive, the move has been made against consensus and violates WP:ENGLISH and WP:COMMONNAME... --Soccer-holic^{I hear voices in my head...} 20:04, 18 August 2010 (UTC)

C&P. No history to speak of. Sandman888 (talk) ^{Latest PR} 21:21, 18 August 2010 (UTC)

First of all, sorry for the late response, I had to deal with real-life work. No, I will not do a c+p move, since 2010–11 Greek Cup is not a stub with little or no content, and also would violate WP:MOVE, section 4.

By the way, Gx25 (talk · contribs) has also moved the main article from Greek Cup to Kypello Ellados, and again, something is blocking the reversion of the move. If it helps, The big G also says that it rather knows Greek Cup (~6,000,000 results) than Kypello Elladas (~550,000 results) or even Kypello Ellados (~35,000 results). So, politely asked once more, would some admin please move the articles in question back to their English names? --Soccer-holic^{I hear voices in my head...} 08:47, 20 August 2010 (UTC)

LFC Peer Review

Hey there guys, is there any chance a few of you could post a few comments on the Liverpool F.C. peer review, I'm gonna try and get it to FA, this is going to take a lot of effort and hard work, as it is not near the standard yet. I've only had one review and it was not particularly helpful, so it would be very much appreciated if a few of you could take some time comment. The peer review can be found here. Cheers NapHit (talk) 19:18, 18 August 2010 (UTC)

I'll do yours if you do mine Sandman888 (talk) ^{Latest PR} 19:37, 18 August 2010 (UTC)

Any merit in retaining this one?

List of Muslim footballers: Very few are sourced, no apparent evidence of importance of faith as an issue in life of those listed, no apparent ordering of theose included, very recentist, no qualification as to "notable", so presumably anyone who meets WP:ATH could be on it. We have aleady rejected the idea of categories based on religion, and denounced BLP assumpions that seem based on name and ethnicity. I would suggest that this article will always be chronically incomplete, that most of those added to it will be unsourced, that we will never know with confidence whether those listed are considered Muslim by religious conviction or cultural accident of family. Its equivalent articles (list of Christian footballers, list of Buddhist footballers, list of atheist footballers etc) will presumably never be written: this is in danger of becoming a pride list. So my inclination would be to AfD it: any thoughts? Kevin McE (talk) 22:43, 18 August 2010 (UTC)

We've had a discussion about this sort of thing before; we could really do with an article on football in British Asian culture or the like because it's an identifiable subject which has had a fair amount written about it now. However, an open list of all Muslim footballers (not just Brits, all: which would likely include almost all footballers in a great many large countries) is utterly unworkable as a list, and as before almost certainly not workable as a category either. I would say that it's destined for an AfD; even if a more appropriate subject article were written, it's not as if four tabloid references would form its basis. Chris Cunningham (user:thumperward: not at work) - talk 22:53, 18 August 2010 (UTC)

No. Besides van Persie isn't a Muslim and Anelka is on there twice. However just as we have an article on Homosexuality in English football, we should have an article on Muslims in British football, or British Asian culture and football, or British Asians and sport, or British Asian sporting culture or whatever.--EchetusXe 23:47, 18 August 2010 (UTC)

AfD listed Kevin McE (talk) 01:56, 19 August 2010 (UTC)

EchetusXe - I love your attempt to find the name for a British Asian football article - you were so close! You'll find one in existence at British Asians in association football. GiantSnowman 18:36, 19 August 2010 (UTC)

Ah, very good!--EchetusXe 00:56, 20 August 2010 (UTC)

Links to nonexistent articles about referees

The documentation of {{footballbox collapsible}} demands the name of the referees be "wikilinked only if there is a page for the referee". Does this apply for {{football box}} too, and if it does, why are all names of referees linked routinely, regardless of whether or not an article has been written about them? See 2010 FIFA World Cup qualification – AFC First Round, UEFA Euro 2012 qualifying Group C or 2010–11 UEFA Champions League qualifying phase and play-off round for some examples. --Theurgist (talk) 03:21, 19 August 2010 (UTC)

I think the documentation is wrong. The referee should be linked if he is notable, regardless of whether the article exists yet or not. – PeeJay 05:46, 19 August 2010 (UTC)

Indeed. The collapsible box shouldn't be making up its own guidelines like that, really; I'll try to sort that out when I (eventually) get round to merging the two football boxes back together. Chris Cunningham (user:thumperward: not at work) - talk 08:21, 19 August 2010 (UTC)

I removed that statement as it goes against WP:REDLINK. Woody (talk) 08:48, 19 August 2010 (UTC)

There is a presumption that most referees are not notable, unless they go out of their way to prove that they pass the GNG, which is exactly the same as players without articles in Conference clubs' squad lists. I therefore think removing that statement was the wrong thing to do. --WFC-- 07:17, 20 August 2010 (UTC)

There's no need for an admonition to that effect on random template doc pages, though; especially when said comment appears on the collapsible version of the template but not the one it was forked from. Chris Cunningham (user:thumperward: not at work) - talk 09:45, 20 August 2010 (UTC)

I would note that in both templates, referees are frequently redlinked when in all probability they are not notable. These templates are used by a higher than normal proportion of users that are not well-versed in the likes of WP:REDLINK, and it is therefore worth pointing out a policy that they are less likely to have stumbled across. The original wording was wrong, but should not have been removed entirely, and indeed the suggestion that it must abide by the example set by its inferior parent is highly questionable. Finally, I'm sure I don't need to say this (both because you know policy and are unlikely to make any mistakes), but please note that any merge should not be performed until it has undergone scrutiny at Template talk:Footballbox collapsible to ensure compatability. I say that purely because of the way this conversation panned out. --WFC-- 19:19, 20 August 2010 (UTC)

Anyone help with tackling an unsourced BLP?

Hey folks,

I started Malcolm Kpedekpo over a year ago based on the only (reasonably) reliable source I could find (soccerbase), but it really needs more than that to qualify for being a sourced BLP these days. Anyone familiar with Aberdeen (or with better sources for bit-part players in Scotland in the nineties) able to help out? Chris Cunningham (user:thumperward: not at work) - talk 09:09, 19 August 2010 (UTC)

Little mini-bio here might be helpful. cheers, Struway2 (talk) 09:23, 19 August 2010 (UTC)

Ahhh, excellent! I knew he was a banker now, but not how successful he was. I'll try to get on this later. Chris Cunningham (user:thumperward: not at work) - talk 11:26, 19 August 2010 (UTC)

Also some stuff here if this helps. Alzarian16 (talk) 17:27, 19 August 2010 (UTC)

Superb. I've expanded the article with details on what he's doing now (i.e. making vastly more money than me). Thanks, folks. Chris Cunningham (user:thumperward: not at work) - talk 09:43, 20 August 2010 (UTC)

Too much kit detail?

I almost don't want to bring this up, because he's obviously worked VERY hard on these, but are this guy's kits too detailed? There are no sponsors or decals or anything, but every tiny dot and line has been added to the MLS kits. Thoughts? --JonBroxton (talk) 16:05, 19 August 2010 (UTC)

I think the issue lies in that the squiggly designs tend to be copyright but my understanding of the ins and outs of kits might be wonky, so I'd like to see some clarification too. Koncorde (talk) 07:42, 20 August 2010 (UTC)

Daniel Ciofani & Parma

It is a tricky case. Daniel Ciofani and Alessandro Marotta, players from lower division, were signed by Serie A clubs for team investment (or money investment), both players were rarely appeared / never appeared in official web and not trained with team (according to official web source), the latter (Marotta) already left on loan to other club.

Here is the question:

• 1. Should they listed in the current squad (signed by seems never became a member of first team)
  • 2. If yes, How to list them?

Just like Inter Milan, there is about 10 professional players pending on loan to other club, and the name current hided by using <!--, should we use Juventus F.C. as example?

Same case, article SSC Napoli listed them in current squad without number. But seems Cristian Bucchi and Marcelo Zalayeta were excluded from the first team squad in 2007 and 2009 and Napoli did not intended to re-include them, how should we treat them? Matthew_hk tc 17:13, 19 August 2010 (UTC)

The section likes Juve may only for the transfer window. But in Italy it did happened that a player without a squad number for the first 6 months as he failed to loan out and he is not a youth player (may be 24, 28). Matthew_hk tc 17:22, 19 August 2010 (UTC)

Individual countries at the FIFA World Cup

I recently saw this discussion. I then checked out the deleted articles at Deletionpedia (Bulgaria, Greece, England, France), and I agree they had been needless for the encyclopedia. But that made me think if there was any use of any of the articles in the Countries at the FIFA World Cup category. They all include some general information about the World Cup, and little or no data about each individual team's participation therein, safe for those tables that can also be found at the articles of every team. I didn't dare nominate those pages for deletion at once without first raising a discussion here. --Theurgist (talk) 00:52, 20 August 2010 (UTC)

We had this conversation a couple of months ago. Kevin McE (talk) 09:39, 20 August 2010 (UTC)

I see the Trinidad and Tobago at the 2006 FIFA World Cup page still exists. 91.106.126.13 (talk) 10:50, 20 August 2010 (UTC)

As do the other articles that were part of the same unsuccessful AfD in June 2006: I'm not sure what your point is here. In the case of T&T, the fact that they have only reached the finals once means that the article specific to 2006 is equivalent to Trinidad and Tobago at the FIFA World Cup, which the above referenced discussion would retain. Kevin McE (talk) 11:16, 20 August 2010 (UTC)

List of 'club' internationals - delete?

After seeing List of Burnley F.C. internationals, I thought it was a odd project to list all the players who have played for a club while also at some point in the (later/earlier) career have played for their country. Not to mention the many errors in the article, see John Angus, but Hugh Flack has 1 full cap and 1 appearances for Burnley. Why such an entry should be informative for anyone is a mystery to me.

It's a list of players capped while with Burnley, not international players who happen at some point to have played for Burnley. And I'm afraid I don't see any errors with Angus or Flack, perhaps you could clarify. yes, I do, sorry, I'll fix them now. cheers, Struway2 (talk) 12:20, 20 August 2010 (UTC)

I'm an idiot :-) I've just self-reverted, and added a clarification at the top of the table as to what's in the columns, for the benefit of those as stupid as me, if there are any... cheers, Struway2 (talk) 12:50, 20 August 2010 (UTC)

Couldn't this information be expressed in List of Burnley F.C. players as it is in List of Port Vale F.C. players?--EchetusXe 17:01, 20 August 2010 (UTC)

I agree with EchetusXe, no need for a seperate article. GiantSnowman 19:36, 20 August 2010 (UTC)

French Guiana flags

Hi there. With the recent change in the flag of French Guiana all articles regarding its football clubs had been automatically changed to the actual flag, causing serious anachronisms in competitions before 2010 (see for instance here). I don't know how to fix this, other than just editing the flag of France. What should be done here? Ipsumesse (talk) 12:42, 20 August 2010 (UTC)

Not really a football issue, but it seems to have been changed with no discussion from the relevant national level flag, to a regional one. The flag was approved by the lower of the two levels of government in the region: this new flag is the flag of the Department, but not of the region (although the two cover the same territory): French Guinea is primarily a region, albeit a region that has only one department. Given that the regional council has a right-wing majority, they are unlikely to pass the flag that features a red star. So I do not believe the flag change should have been made at all, and will raise the matter at Template talk:Country data French Guiana and with the admin who changed it. Kevin McE (talk) 16:42, 20 August 2010 (UTC)

Much the same has happened with New Caledonia too. Knepflerle (talk) 17:23, 20 August 2010 (UTC)

Rather different situation: France/French Guiana/New Caledonia is like UK/Isle of Wight/Falklands, or USA/Alaska/Guam. The new flag seems to have equivalent status to the tricolour, and probably is useful to identify more specifically. As to the chronology issue, we had something similar recently in regard to Malawi: Theurgist seems to have been the coding mastermind in that instance. Kevin McE (talk) 18:04, 20 August 2010 (UTC)

You're missing the wood for the trees, Kevin - the matter of importance is that the new flag for New Caledonia has been substituted universally, but is an anachronism in any reference before 2010. The anachronism is independent of constitutional status. Knepflerle (talk) 18:31, 20 August 2010 (UTC)

You seem to be missing my last sentence (don't know if trees are to blame): difference in situations proven in that the country data change for French Guiana has now been reversed. Kevin McE (talk) 19:59, 20 August 2010 (UTC)

Might be worth contacting the admin so that he can create the historical parameter we normally add when a country changes flag. The easiest way to fix this would be to do a bot run changing the likes of {{flag|New Caledonia}} to {{flag|New Caledonia|year french flag was first used}} The sooner it happens, the fewer false positives humans will have to go back and revert afterwards. Sure, it will cause problems for this project, where flags are used for current athletes, but we're in the minority, and that could be rectified with an AWB run on football clubs that use {{Country data New Caledonia}}. --WFC-- 18:51, 20 August 2010 (UTC)

I've checked the Malawi issue and left a note in Theurgist's talk page so he can check this out. I can see from your comments that the creation of a new flagicon is not an easy task, right? I ask so I can learn what to do next time, because if I knew how, maybe I'd like to fix it myself. At any case, countries shouldn't change their flags... Ipsumesse (talk) 16:46, 21 August 2010 (UTC)

Season lists

Although List of Watford F.C. seasons is now a featured list, there were some outstanding concerns raised in its FLC. To that end, I've started a discussion here on how to improve the visual appeal of the list, and simplify the article formatting. Thoughts welcome. Regards, --WFC-- 19:43, 20 August 2010 (UTC)

Eyes required

here, here, and anywhere else that might be considered racist to South America. --WFC-- 05:34, 21 August 2010 (UTC)

Oh dear. Oh dear oh dear oh dear... – PeeJay 05:46, 21 August 2010 (UTC)

Is there anyway to revert the mess? As in remove the edit wars from the history page? --MicroX (talk) 05:50, 21 August 2010 (UTC)

Don't think so. There just has to be an extra effort to keep an eye out for suspicious edits by IP address and what not in South American football related articles. It's unfortunate that it has to come to that. Digirami (talk) 08:10, 21 August 2010 (UTC)

Free adminship for all footy regulars! Sandman888 (talk) ^{Latest PR} 17:28, 21 August 2010 (UTC)

Hmm, I wonder who that IP could be... Argyle 4 Life^talk 19:06, 21 August 2010 (UTC)

Looks like he stopped... for now. --MicroX (talk) 20:26, 21 August 2010 (UTC)

That's because he's back to fucking about with the 1968 Intercontinental Cup article. What a wanker. – PeeJay 20:34, 21 August 2010 (UTC)

Add pending changes to all CONMENBOL articles. (Barca > Real btw.). Sandman888 (talk) ^{Latest PR} 20:41, 21 August 2010 (UTC)

I have a cat. I used to tempt him out of the house by taking a second food bowl outside, dropping a small scoop of food in it, and shutting the door. After about 10 times he cottoned on. This guy hasn't... draw your own conclusions. --WFC-- 21:05, 21 August 2010 (UTC)

Looks like I'm going to have to add all the Intercontinental and CWC editions to my watchlist. Maybe even anything that involves South American football. --MicroX (talk) 21:10, 21 August 2010 (UTC)

"Club in Europe" (again)

I'm asking this because I have FC Barcelona in Europe, it has just gone through 2nd PR, and it's a-okay. Last time I asked the consensus was, unsurprisingly, non-existent. Wizardman and Peejay were in favour, while WFC was against. I personally don't care but merging it with List of records would make it very long, and rather unwieldy on mobiles. So if anyone has any good ideas or input, let's hear it. Sandman888 (talk) ^{Latest PR} 20:47, 21 August 2010 (UTC)

What I will say is that I still think it's irrelevant detail, and that if it was covered in the sort of way that this is then it wouldn't overly distort the records and statistics. That said, I will recuse from any future FLC if at least half of the participants in this thread hold a different view. --WFC-- 21:10, 21 August 2010 (UTC)