Talk:American football

Please remove Malware link.

{{editsemiprotected}}

In the "Outside the United States" section, please change:

"In Hungary, 18 registered teams participate in a the MAFL's two division league structure."

to:

"In Hungary, 18 registered teams participate in the MAFL's two division league structure."

Reason:

The "MAFL" link, "http://www.sportmedia.hu/amerikaifoci/english/", appears to be a malware link. For details on the problems associated with this website, please see http://www.mywot.com/en/scorecard/sportmedia.hu.

SMS (talk) 01:29, 8 February 2010 (UTC)

Shape of the ball?

Does anyone realize that there is no mention of the shape of the ball in American football in the article? THF (talk) 05:03, 8 February 2010 (UTC)

However, there is a link to Football (ball)#American and Canadian football in the intro, which describes the ball and has pictures. —C.Fred (talk) 05:08, 8 February 2010 (UTC)

(edit conflict) WP:SOFIXIT. I believe that most of the time, the words "prolate spheroid" generally appear in many of the definitions of the shape of an american football. Search "prolate spheroid football" in google and you should get some good hits for references. --Jayron32 05:09, 8 February 2010 (UTC)

Please AGF. I would have been happy to fix it; I didn't know the technical mathematical term, and was hoping someone more familiar with the subject would; the subject arose when I had a lexicographical debate with a friend over whether a football was a "ball" given that it wasn't round, and was hoping to have a handy topological definition here. It just seemed strange that the article goes into flyspeck detail over obscure football rules, but doesn't provide the context for what a football is. THF (talk) 05:12, 8 February 2010 (UTC)

I was looking at it from the angle of how much definition of the ball we need to put in the article, since it's covered in its own article. It probably wouldn't hurt to mention the shape. Perhaps change the intro by adding the underlined text?

The objective of the game is to score points by advancing the ball, a prolate spheroid, into the opposing team's end zone.

The problem is that it flows awkwardly, and "a prolate-spheroidical ball" is even worse. I'm at a lack for a suggestion on how to work it into the article. —C.Fred (talk) 05:23, 8 February 2010 (UTC)

Speaking of the ball, any thoughts on this edit at [[Handegg}? (This is part of a long-term lowgrade vandal campaign on that page.) To me, the term "hand egg" is a smart-alecky neolgism, and the comments are certainly uncited and OR as written. Also, it's somewhat derrogatory toward Americans, as Canadian football, and Australian rules football and Rugby, which use a similarly-shaped ball with hand play, but seems to be exempt from the vandal edits I've seen. Is there any real notability to this term that would warrnt encyclopedic coverage? - BilCat (talk) 06:13, 8 February 2010 (UTC)

Cute joke, but I've never heard the term. THF (talk) 11:53, 8 February 2010 (UTC)

American HandBall or American Football

its amazing to see a bunch of usa citizens going to the Association Football article and blaming about it should be called Soccer or another name instead of football. Let me tell you something fellows in Football the 99,9% percent the ball is used with the foot, in American Football the 0,1% of the time the players touch the ball with the foot, it should be renamed to American Handball. Also i see theres no much discussion about this article. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 201.243.4.66 (talk) 12:22, 3 April 2010 (UTC)

The sport is called American Football. If it's so objectionable that Americans go to the Association Football article insisting that it be renamed football, why is it not objectionable for Europeans to come here insisting the article be called something else. Both the pot and the kettle are black.--RLent (talk) 20:26, 19 April 2010 (UTC)

Folks can insist all they like about whatever names they like. Until there is consensus in accordance with Wiki policy, the names will stay what they are. At the end of the day, those who call Association Football what it is will know it by that name, and that name is sufficient for 99% of the people interested in it. Those who know American Football (or Gridiron Football) as what that sport is get the same general treatment. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Bkporter12 (talk • contribs) 21:58, 19 April 2010 (UTC)

The sports should be referred to by their most common international nomenclatures. Association Football may be called "soccer" by Americans, but the vast majority of the globe calls Association Football just "Football". Similarly, Gridiron Football or American Football, ought to be referred to as "American Football", as it is understood around the world outside the United States. So, Association Football = "Football" and American Football = "American Football". Whether or not the nomenclature is accurate in what it represents (indeed, American Football ought probably not be referred to as 'football', as the foot and the ball rarely meet in that sport), the fact remains that it is still called American Football. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 134.48.241.189 (talk) 20:52, 13 September 2010 (UTC)

Each artcile in Wikipedia uses the term most prevelant in the subject's own cultural context. See WP:ENGVAR. Thus, in the article on Association Football, the unqualified term football refers to THAT code, while in this article the unqualified term football refers to American football. Each usage is to be judged within its own context, while also containing enough information in the article title and lead for those outside of the culture to understand the local usage. --Jayron32 21:36, 13 September 2010 (UTC)

WP:COMMONNAME also applies here, as "handball" is almost never used to refer to American football, and is that name of several other sports. The same applies to the more recent "handegg", which is a town in Switzerland. Neither name is used in a serious context to refer to refer to American football, and is almost always derogatory. Further, while I've seen several discussion on WP about this in reference to the US sport, I don't recall ever seeing a post on changing Canadian football to Canadian handball or Canadian handegg, leading me to believe it is more a reaction against the US sport's widespread visibility than a desire to "help" the sport be more accurate, along with a variable dose of ant-Americanism thrown in. Not to mention that Rugby and Aussie Rules also use "eggs" with lots of hand play, yet the vandalism to Handegg is always US-focused. COMMONNAME also applies to the Latin American objection to the use of "American" in "American football", as soccer is also played in "America". The counter is that no one calls soccer "American football/futbol" (at least not more than the other sport). - BilCat (talk) 02:56, 14 September 2010 (UTC)

This is, to be honest a rather strange discussion as Football in itself is a term that, when used in general discussion, very much depends on which English speaking Nation you happen to be talking at any given time. As an example a global traveller walks into a bar in New York and asks to see the football. The barman will put the New York Giants vs New England Patriots on screen. The next day he flies to Cork in Ireland and asks the same question in the same language and is presented with Cork vs Dublin. The folowing day he flies to London where the same question is asked and this time he views Everton vs Manchester United. Two days later he is in Melbourne, Australia where the same question presents him with Collingwood vs Geelong. Now those familiar with International sports clubs will have recognised that the man has asked the same question in the same language in four different cities and been presented with four different sports. Only Rugby's two codes make no direct attempt to be known simply as football while all four other major codes all do. It is for this reason that English speaking Wiki's article on football refers to all the various codes while the individual codes use their longform titles, i.e. American, Association, Australian and Gaelic. I see no reason to change this. Captainbeecher (talk) 23:10, 18 September 2010 (UTC)

Tackle football

Who calls American football "tackle football" -- is there any football that does not include tackling? -- PBS (talk) 08:34, 18 May 2010 (UTC)

It's generally used in the US (and possibly Canada, but I don't know) to refer to the main form of the sport with full-body tackling to differentiate it from the non-full-contact variants such as Touch football and Flag football. As written, it was stating it was a name used outside the US, which is more than likely completely wrong. I've removed this from the Lead several times before, but it keeps being re-added, and I missed it the last time that happened. Thanks for catching that (assuming that's what you meant, since you weren't specific.) - BilCat (talk) 10:18, 18 May 2010 (UTC)

Canadian rules slightly or significantly different?

The article disagrees with itself. The introduction states that Canadian rules have "significant differences" with the American rules, but the section on the game outside of the USA calls these differences "slight". Shall we decide which it is? 128.189.117.169 (talk) 17:04, 27 June 2010 (UTC)

Have edited to address this concern. Ruedetocqueville (talk) 06:27, 28 June 2010 (UTC)

Rules: yards and feet

In the rules section, why the wacky mixture of units. The field is 360 feet long but the goal lines are 100 yards apart. You have to think for a short period to work out how they relate. Would it be possible/sensible/permissible to change everything to one basic unit (I would suggest feet since there?)? -- SGBailey (talk) 15:32, 12 July 2010 (UTC)

Nothing is measured in feet in football. It is all measured in yards. The field, with the exception of the endzones, is 100 years long. A down starts with 10 yards to go. Even the width of the field and distance between hash marks is measured in yards. I'm not sure why anything mentions feet. 360 feet is 120 yards (the 100 yard field with two 10 yard endzones). -- kainaw™ 15:43, 12 July 2010 (UTC)

Off the top of my head, the only thing in the Federation rulebook that I know is measured in feet is the goal assembly: 10 feet high, 23 feet and change wide. The side zones might be specified in feet, but I think even they're specified in yards. —C.Fred (talk) 15:50, 12 July 2010 (UTC)

OK, at a convenient moment, if noone else has done it, I'll convert it to yards. -- SGBailey (talk) 07:57, 13 July 2010 (UTC)

No, yards doesn't work. there are dimensions that don't convert well (eg 160 feet). Will have to ponder for a while. -- SGBailey (talk) 18:26, 13 July 2010 (UTC)

160 feet is 53 1/3 yards (which is how it is listed in all NFL rulebooks that I see). -- kainaw™ 18:31, 13 July 2010 (UTC)

Just to point out that the official NFL rulebook lists the field dimensions in feet. Specifically it says, "The game shall be played upon a rectangular field, 360 feet in length and 160 feet in width." (Rule 1, Section 1) Also, the diagram in the book lists measurements in feet. It is true that other aspects such as distance required to pick up an additional set of downs is indeed in yards. Just providing additional information. AllPurposeGamer (talk) 08:33, 27 July 2010 (UTC)

Federation is the same way, defining the field as "a rectangular field 360 by 160 feet" (1-1-2). The diagram is given in feet; the only items defined in yards are the nine-yard marks, the team boxes between the 25-yard lines, the 2-yard belt, and the chains. I think we're doing the reader a service to give the overall definition in yards. I'm going to try something, and if it works, I'll make a change in how that text is presented to show the equivalents in yards and feet. —C.Fred (talk) 12:17, 27 July 2010 (UTC)

player with the ball is forced to the ground

Please include definition of "forced to the ground". Is it knee touching the ground? Elbow? Wrist? Head? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 108.3.223.91 (talk) 03:05, 7 September 2010 (UTC)

It depends slightly on the specific code (High School, College, NFL), but generally a player is considered down when any part of their body other than their hands or feet touches the ground. In college and high School, the player is down as soon as that happens, in the NFL, the player must have been specifically tackled, though the definition of tackled means "Touched by a defensive player immediately before or during being down". Even being grazed by a defensive player is enough to qualify as being tackled. In college or HS, even if a player goes to the ground untouched, they are down. --Jayron32 05:11, 7 September 2010 (UTC)

In the NFL, you can be down without being touched in any way by a defensive player. This is normally called "taking a knee". The ball carrier purposely kneels down on one knee to indicate that he wishes to be ruled down. Also, the NFL rarely uses the phrase "forced to the ground". Instead, it uses the phrase "down by contact". -- kainaw™ 15:46, 7 September 2010 (UTC)

Specifically the ball is dead when a player "declares himself down by falling to the ground and makes no effort to advance" or "any time a quarterback immediately drops to his knee (or simulates dropping to his knee) to the ground behind the line of scrimmage during the last two minutes of a half." Also a runner is down whenever he "declares himself down by sliding feet first to the ground." And like was stated previously, a runner is down when he is "contacted by a defensive player and he touches the ground with any part of his body except his hands or feet..." Just an FYI is anyone wanted the specific language used in the rule book. AllPurposeGamer (talk) 02:24, 8 September 2010 (UTC)

Outside the United States

This section says, "The NFL has attempted to introduce the game to other nations and operated a developmental league, NFL Europa, with teams in five German cities and one in the Netherlands, but this league folded following the 2007 season."

However, the European League (formerly known as the WLAF or World League of American Football) had teams from several other countries as well, including the London Monarchs and Barcelona Dragons. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.18.213.36 (talk) 16:39, 8 October 2010 (UTC)

The WLAF only existed for 3 years, from 1991-1993. The NFL shut it down for two years, and reopened it as NFL Europe (later NFL Europa) in 1995, with a smaller number of teams. Only three cities that had teams in the WLAF also had teams in NFL Europe. They are sort-of considered to have a shared history, but this is more by decree than by reality, much like the modern Cleveland Browns, which is declared to be a continuation of the 1946-1995 Browns, even though THAT team is really the Baltimore Ravens. In reality, it may be better to think of the WLAF and NFL Europe as seperate leagues. This is explained at NFL_Europe#History. Though even THAT statement isn't correct, since even under NFL Europe, there were teams in Barcelona and Scotland. I'll tweak it.--Jayron32 03:46, 9 October 2010 (UTC)