Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2011 February 20

February 20

Category:Persons convicted of fraud

Category:Persons convicted of fraud - Template:Lc1

Nominator's rationale: This was previously deleted and then that deletion reviewed at Wikipedia:Deletion review/Log/2011 February 9. I closed that review as no consensus; my close was then challenged. I still consider my initial close valid, but as I said in the close, I think a new CFD is appropriate. As no one else is opening one, I am now doing so. The question is whether this category is sufficiently distinct from Category:Fraudsters to merit inclusion on biographies of people convicted of fraud but not primarily associated with fraud. Please consider the merits only; all previous actions are irrelevant. This is a neutral nomination. Chick Bowen 23:05, 20 February 2011 (UTC)

• Delete -- as Chick Bowen says, this has just gone through a CfD and DRV, and I see no reason whatsoever to treat these previous actions as "irrelevant". Some people appear unwilling to accept community decisions unless they go the "right" way. Nomoskedasticity (talk) 23:16, 20 February 2011 (UTC)
  • Fair enough, but for the purposes of moving on and bringing this to a resolution, would you mind addressing the merits in addition? Thank you. Chick Bowen 23:19, 20 February 2011 (UTC)
    • It was brought to a resolution. Opening a new discussion undoes that -- it's the opposite of bringing it to a resolution. Nomoskedasticity (talk) 23:24, 20 February 2011 (UTC)
      • I would be perfectly willing to accept a "community decision", but none of the actions taken have reflected such a decision. Arguably there was a consensus for keeping this category and for overturning the bogus delete result (11-7 ... with one of those 7 being the closer's self endorsement). There is no way to argue that there was remotely any consensus that went the other way. The decisions in question are, in other words, not those of the community, but those of two separate admins. I am perfectly unwilling to accept those types of decisions as if they were "community decisions". Indeed, my outrage at this process has been exactly the fact that the community's voice has been trampled here all along. Cheers.Griswaldo (talk) 02:31, 21 February 2011 (UTC)

• Delete This category was originally created to include several politicians who were forced to resign their positions following allegations and convictions of fraud. In each case the fraud or the criminal trials were connected to their notability. In the general scheme of categoriess, people who merit inclusion in criminal categories are all convicts, but there are some important exceptions such as those who die prior to their final conviction. It would be disruptive to require that all members of criminal categories have been convicted, even though most of them should be. For that reason, "Persons convicted of fraud" should not replace "Fraudsters". The second issue is that some editors have asserted that "fraudster" implies a career criminal. However there is no evidence of this. No dictionary has been found to support this definition of the word. We categorize other people for singular crimes as murderers, traitors, or perjurors, even when they do not make careers out of those activities. No reason has been given for why those who commit fraud should be treated differently. Therefore this category is redundant with Category:Fraudsters.   Will Beback  talk  23:41, 20 February 2011 (UTC)
  • Can I put Winona Ryder in Category:thieves? She has a theft conviction.--Scott Mac 00:02, 21 February 2011 (UTC)
• Keep I and an number of editors (including Jimmy Wales) have expressed concerns about the category "fraudsters" being applied to BLPs. For myself, I've no problem with it being applied to people who principally are known for fraudulent practices (that is conmen etc. - see Frank Abagnale Jr ymmv). But, with people convicted of expenses fraud etc, pejoratively labelling them "fraudsters" is simply not neutral. Now, you may disagree - but what can possibly be the objection to using a more precise and utterly ambiguous category for BLPs like "convicted of fraud" in such cases? Seriously what? As I say, I've no objection to "fraudsters" also existing for cases where it is unambiguously appropriate (although if people want to merge it into this, that's fine too). The comparison to murder is misleading. A person who murdered 50 years ago is still known as a murderer, the crime is singularly significant enough to define the individual. However, Winona Ryder who was convicted of "grand theft, shoplifting and vandalism" could not neutrally be put in Category:thieves or Category:Vandals or even Category:Shoplifters, could she?--Scott Mac 23:57, 20 February 2011 (UTC)

I would not be more comfortable placing Ryder in a Category:People convicted of grand theft. Pichpich (talk) 00:25, 21 February 2011 (UTC)

She's already in Category:People convicted of theft.--Scott Mac 00:28, 21 February 2011 (UTC)

Ha ha. I will now shut up. (But I still think it's silly to put her in that category) Pichpich (talk) 00:43, 21 February 2011 (UTC)

• Keep - easy choice, as per WP:BLP type . err on the side of caution and do no harm positions. Off2riorob (talk) 00:07, 21 February 2011 (UTC)
• Keep - This is sorely needed in BLP cases especially but also anytime there has been a conviction of fraud but reliable sources do not call the individual in question a "fraudster", or any of the term's synonyms. There is absolutely no reason why the two categories can't coexist. Regarding the prior CfD and DRV, I urge people to actually take a thorough look. There was never a consensus to delete. Cheers.Griswaldo (talk) 02:35, 21 February 2011 (UTC)
• Keep or create, or whatever. I think the differences between this at Category:Fraudsters seem obvious enough, and for BLP concerns alone at least this category should exist. But most of all, I still think the previous CfD and DRV discussions still got this wrong. --InkSplotch (talk) 02:40, 21 February 2011 (UTC)

Category:Potential Egyptian presidential candidates, 2011

Category:Potential Egyptian presidential candidates, 2011 - Template:Lc1

Nominator's rationale: Delete. Speculative, liable to change quickly and therefore inappropriate for categorization per WP:CRYSTAL and WP:OC#CANDIDATES. Good Ol’factory ^(talk) 21:28, 20 February 2011 (UTC)

Literature from/of location

Propose renaming according to one of the following:

Option 2:Literature of Foo
Category:Georgian literature to Category:Literature of Georgia (country) Category:Literature from Northern Ireland to Category:Literature of Northern Ireland

Rationalle: These should all use the same pattern. Note that while the Georgia (country) still uses the "Fooian literature" patern, once oone of these paterns is established it would be speedsy renamable under C2B - per Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2009 May 28#Category:Georgian culture, where the parent category was renamed. עוד מישהו Od Mishehu 15:45, 20 February 2011 (UTC)

• The standard in Category:Literature by nationality is Fooian literature. Could you explain how these proposed renames would relate to that? Thanks. postdlf (talk) 16:38, 20 February 2011 (UTC)
  • Most countries thereis no consensus against the Fooian X form. However, for a few places (I know that Northern Ireland and Georgia (country) are among these) have a consensus not to use the Fooian X form. I assume that these other 2 places are like that. עוד מישהו Od Mishehu 17:13, 20 February 2011 (UTC)
• Various - This nom is fairly messy; the options should not be hidden. Support:Category:Literature of Georgia (country) - this is largely a by language category, & ought to include diaspora stuff; Keep Category:Literature from Northern Ireland, as that's the best match for the subs & other cats. Keep Category:Literature of Bihar& Category:Literature of Uttarakhand as adjectival forms seem inapproprite. There is no real reason for these all to be consistent; they should never even be in the same category. Johnbod (talk) 23:12, 20 February 2011 (UTC)

California directors

Propose merging Category:Television directors from California to Category:American television directors

Propose merging Category:Theatre directors from California to Category:American theatre directors

Nominator's rationale: Merge, overly specific occupational subdivision by subnational entity. This just makes it harder to find these articles, because by no means are you going to want to search for an article only based on their state of origin (which may or may not be where they actually performed their career). So if they are to be linked to California in some way, it can't be by the most specific career categories on their articles, but instead should be intersected with some more general occupational level (just as Bob Dylan is in Category:American folk singers and Category:Musicians from Minnesota, not Category:American folk singers from Minnesota). postdlf (talk) 15:18, 20 February 2011 (UTC)

• do not merge in this way at this time. Following the category parents, these are part of Category:American people by occupation by state. Unless this entire branch of the category tree is going to be approved for merging in some way or another, there is no reason to just choose two of its subcats for merging. There is nothing to stop editors from putting people into this category tree structure as well as into more general US occupational cats structure. Proper purpose/use statements in the categories would help if that is what is desired. Hmains (talk) 21:28, 20 February 2011 (UTC)
  • These are the only two subdivisions of theatre directors or television directors by state, so there is no "tree" or other structure at issue here, just these two. As I said, if they are to be linked to California in some way," it should be at "some more general occupational level". That could be Category:California media people (the current parent, though not a category I necessarily think is a good one), it could be some other more general category than the current two. postdlf (talk) 23:13, 20 February 2011 (UTC)

Category:Circassian Ottomans

Propose merging Category:Circassian Ottomans to Category:Ottoman Circassians

Nominator's rationale: Merge (self-explanatory). Pichpich (talk) 15:12, 20 February 2011 (UTC)

• Opinion I don't really think that the categories about the origin are important in Ottoman Empire . I created the category just because I saw that the categories about are origin are common in Wikipedia and I wanted to go with the crowd. At the time of creation, I didn't know the existence of Category: Ottoman Circassian . OK, Category:Circassian Ottomans can be merged to Category:Ottoman Circassians. But out of curiosity, which is grammatically better ? Circassin (adjective) Ottoman or Ottoman (adjective) Circassian ? Nedim Ardoğa (talk) 18:04, 20 February 2011 (UTC)
• Merge per nom. To be an "Ottoman" as a noun one really has to be a member of the Imperial family. Johnbod (talk) 23:14, 20 February 2011 (UTC)

Category:Belasitsa Petrich

Propose renaming Category:Belasitsa Petrich to Category:PFC Belasitsa Petrich

Nominator's rationale: Rename to match the name of its subcategory and the prevailing convention in Category:Bulgarian football clubs and the wider standard for football clubs of similar names. Pichpich (talk) 14:05, 20 February 2011 (UTC)

• Support - category should match article name. Jogurney (talk) 19:49, 20 February 2011 (UTC)
• Support per nom. jonkerz♠ 21:47, 20 February 2011 (UTC)

Category:American science fiction adventure films

Category:American science fiction adventure films - Template:Lc1

Nominator's rationale: Redundant; there are other categories that cover science fiction and adventure films. -5- (talk) 11:23, 20 February 2011 (UTC)

keep: Then we would have to eliminate the various science fiction and action cats from films such as the matrix, since science fiction action covers all. if you going to delete my cat, also delete the hundreds of cats related to science fiction and action in lots of sci-fi action films. Keep in mind that allmovie lists X-men: The Last Stand as Sci-Fi Adventure and Back to the future is widely considered a sci-fi adventure film. Sorry, if science-fiction adventure is redundant, so is science-fiction action. 12:27, 20 February 2011 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by TITandNICK (talk • contribs)

Delete: TITandNick's comment above only suggests Wikipedia:Other stuff exists. That article went under review a while ago. If you are going to make claims that it's "widely considered" something, you better provide some sources. Andrzejbanas (talk) 16:11, 20 February 2011 (UTC)

It's wel agreed that Back to the Future, JP and Star Wars are science-fiction adventures. Im going to nominate science fiction action for deletion too — Preceding unsigned comment added by TITandNICK (talk • contribs) 17:26, 20 February 2011 (UTC)

• Delete and upmerge back into SF and Adventure films. Triple-intersection category, and as far as I can tell, no other country/genres do this. Lugnuts (talk) 17:04, 20 February 2011 (UTC)
• Comment – we have Category:Action films, Category:Science fiction action films, Category:American science fiction action films. We also have Category:Adventure films but not Category:Science fiction adventure films. Is 'science fiction adventure' redundant to 'science fiction action' whereas 'adventure' is not redundant to 'action'? Discuss. Occuli (talk) 19:26, 20 February 2011 (UTC)

Category:Keyboards (computing)

Propose renaming Category:Keyboards (computing) to Category:Computer keyboards

Nominator's rationale: Rename to avoid parenthetical dab, and according to recently renamed main article Computer keyboard. Pnm (talk) 04:57, 20 February 2011 (UTC)

• Support Rename to match title of parent article. Alansohn (talk) 19:50, 20 February 2011 (UTC)

Category:Danish refugees

Propose deleting.

Nominator's rationale: Accidental creation (the correct wording is "IN Denmark"). Denmark doesn't seem to generate its own refugees, so category is very likely wholly unnecessary. JFHJr (㊟) 02:15, 20 February 2011 (UTC)

Category:List of Films Shot Near Victoria, British Columbia, Canada

Propose merging Category:List of Films Shot Near Victoria, British Columbia, Canada to Category:Films shot in British Columbia

Nominator's rationale: Merge. Upmerge to parent, no need to have such a specific category for 2 articles. Tassedethe (talk) 22:13, 12 February 2011 (UTC)

• Comment, would a more widely-scoped Category:List of films shot on Vancouver Island be useful? I also note that if the consensus is to keep, the capitalisation will need fixing. Grutness...wha? 22:07, 14 February 2011 (UTC)
  • I think you'd want that to be Category:Films shot on Vancouver Island. Good Ol’factory ^(talk) 22:26, 14 February 2011 (UTC)
    • Hah! Very true. What GO said. Grutness...wha? 23:39, 14 February 2011 (UTC)
    • this suggests that there are quite a few - and we have articles on a lot of them. Grutness...wha? 21:41, 19 February 2011 (UTC)

---

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion so a clearer consensus may be reached.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Timrollpickering (talk) 02:01, 20 February 2011 (UTC)

• Upmerge - category is too specific/underpopulated. jonkerz♠ 20:46, 20 February 2011 (UTC)

Category:Film designers by nationality

Propose renaming Category:Film designers by nationality to Category:Production designers by nationality

Nominator's rationale: The parent category is Category:Production designers. Five of the seven subcats (including the one I just created for Canada) are "FOOian production designers." So I recommend we rename for consistency. Shawn in Montreal (talk) 01:23, 20 February 2011 (UTC)

• Rename per nom. --Pnm (talk) 04:59, 20 February 2011 (UTC)