Talk:Neil Robertson

Please stop making this mistake.

Resolved

 – Article was corrected and no comment since May 2010 suggest consenus. Armbrust ^Talk _Contribs 11:14, 12 September 2010 (UTC)

Robertson is NOT the first Australian to win the title. Horace Lindrum won it in 1952. Robertson is the first Australian to win it at the Crucible. Xowets (talk) 00:57, 4 May 2010 (UTC)

"Due to a disagreement with the Billiards Association and Control Council, Lindrum and McConachy were the only players to compete, with most professional players playing in the World Matchplay championship instead. As a result, Lindrum's title win is often ignored, with Cliff Thorburn (Can), Ken Doherty (Ire) and Neil Robertson (Aus) usually regarded as the only non-British World Champions." (from List of world snooker champions). This fact is well-sourced. Armbrust ^Talk _Contribs 00:33, 4 May 2010 (UTC)

Or you could keep it in and add/change the wording to. 1st offical Aussie world Champ, after Lindrum's unoffical win in 1952. Keeps everyone happy and the reader more informed. But i would like to see a source for the unoffical claim KnowIG 00:36, 4 May 2010 (UTC)

What you referenced there doesn't even prove your point. 'Often ignored' and 'not officially recognised' are not the same thing at all. Therefore, whether you like it or not, Horace Lindrum IS the official World Professional Snooker Champion for 1952. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 195.195.128.84 (talk) 00:38, 4 May 2010 (UTC)

I've appended "in the modern era". While Horace Lindrum's win is often discounted it is factually incorrect to state Robertson is the first Australian ever to win it. Similarly with Hendry, he is often regarded as holding the record for championship wins but in actual fact Joe davis, but most snooker commentators only tend to go by the records of the modern era these days. Betty Logan (talk) 00:43, 4 May 2010 (UTC)

The reference says first Australian world champion, don't remove references, and sections without explanation. Armbrust ^Talk _Contribs 00:44, 4 May 2010 (UTC)

I don't abide by Betty Logan's logic (about the commentators only mentioning the modern game) because all tournament they've been talking about how close Eddie Charlton was to winning it, and his chances came before the 'modern' era of the Embassy sponsorship and the Crucible.195.195.128.84 (talk) 00:46, 4 May 2010 (UTC)

Two of Eddie Charton's finals came in the modern era. Betty Logan (talk) 00:50, 4 May 2010 (UTC)

Ignore that, I wrote it thinking you were agreeing with Armbrust.195.195.128.84 (talk) 00:51, 4 May 2010 (UTC)

Overseas

This still seems to be confusing some people. When the BBC refer to "overseas" players, they mean outside of the UK. Ireland is split into two parts - Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland. Northern Ireland is part of the UK while the Republic is not, and the players from the Republic are classed as "overseas" players in the BBC terminology. In that sense Ken Doherty from the Republic is classed as an "overseas" while Alex Higgins and Dennis Taylor are not, despite then having to cross the same sea to compete.

In the modern game since 1969 (when the knock-out format was introduced and all pros were eligible to enter) there have been three overseas winners i.e. three non-UK champions: Thorburn, Doherty and now Robertson. Since Snooker is considered a British and Irish game, sometimes when referring to international winners "international" usually refers to players outside of the UK and the Republic of Ireland.

When pundits and journalists refer to Robertson as the third overseas/foreigner/international player they mean non-UK, and if they refer to him as the second overseas/foreigner/international player they are obviously excluding Ireland from that category. It's important to be clear on this and perhaps avoid confusing terminology.

Resricting the context to the modern game avoids the Horace Lindrum issue. In regards to this, while the WPBSA generally ignores his win it is important to note that this is a point of view and the fact remains he did win it - much of the Australian press for instance are reporting that Robertson is the second Australian to win it. It is not our place to adopt a stance on this issue, but to clearly report the facts as they are: Lindrum won it, but due to a dispute between the players and the governing body an alternative tournament was established and Lindrum's win is often disregarded by other professionals. Betty Logan (talk) 16:50, 4 May 2010 (UTC) Whatever the Australian media may say, snooker players here in Australia are quite content with the "modern era" qualifier that excludes Horace Lindrum. Anyone who knows anything about the game here has a lot of respect for Lindrum as a player, but knows that his world title was almost embarrassingly trivial under the circumstances. 138.217.153.239 (talk) 11:36, 16 May 2010 (UTC)

Nicknames

While Armbrust has provided a citation to the use of "Melbourne Machine" and "Aussie Ace" [note it was "ace" in the citation], these are not nickname but merely ephermeral titles invented either by a journalist or by an online website looking business. "The Thunder from Down Under" is Robertason's widely known nickname and the only one for this article. bigpad (talk) 09:41, 12 September 2010 (UTC)

The Melbourne Machine is certainly a nickname - one of the previous MCs used to introduce him using it. I have a World Snooker reference so I will add that in. Betty Logan (talk) 11:12, 12 September 2010 (UTC)

Can I say the latest source for "Aussie Ace" doesn't cut it as well. It simply uses the phrase as a description not as a reference to their nickname. We might as well say Ronnie O'Sullivan's nickname is "Controversial Snooker Player". Not to mention the possible unreliable source as a bookmaker. Christopher Connor (talk) 11:45, 12 September 2010 (UTC)

There are many sources for this nickname: World Snooker, Daily Record, This Is Bristol, The Star, Highland News, Entrepreneur (magazine) and Daily Record (again). Armbrust ^Talk _Contribs 12:06, 12 September 2010 (UTC)

"Aussie ace" is the same as saying "Southampton star" or "Belfast battler!" It is *not a nickname - the "a" in "ace" is lowercase, for a start, in all the articles you cited. "Melbourne Machine" is ok, as it's a genuine citation, if only one World Snooker. Armbrust - please don't be re-inserting Aussie Ace. Nicknames is a big weakness in Wikipedia, unfortunately. bigpad (talk) 19:53, 13 September 2010 (UTC)

Ok. Armbrust ^Talk _Contribs 19:56, 13 September 2010 (UTC)

Use of 'Year'

The article contains a number of contradictions in the use of "season" and "year". The "Performance and rankings timeline" table lists seasons while "Tournament finals" lists years. Why don't you replace 'year' with 'season' in the latter, to make the information clear? From the info. in the second table, it was perfectly understandablwe why I wrote Robertson had won a ranking event title every year since 2006 bigpad (talk) 09:55, 27 September 2010 (UTC)

References

Th current BBC reference that's being warred over actually uses the words "British Isles" and not "United Kingdom and Ireland". So in fact we should, and I will, correct the text. We are often told the text does not match the reference, and that we must adhere to what the reference says, so I hope we have agreement here; using words other than those in the reference is original research. LevenBoy (talk) 19:50, 19 April 2011 (UTC)

Just to clariify the situation. British Isles was the original usage, and remained until this edit [1]. LevenBoy (talk) 20:11, 19 April 2011 (UTC)

Would you please clarify exactly which source and quote the text? I've been over the source twice at the end of the disputed sentence and see only the UK and Ireland mentioned. I would prefer to use the UK and Ireland wording since it is more specific but I agree that the text should follow the source, so if the "British Isles" terminology is used I don't really have a problem. Betty Logan (talk) 20:20, 19 April 2011 (UTC)

The 28-year-old is the first player from outside the UK and Ireland to win the world title since Canadian Cliff Thorburn's victory in 1980. That's what the source states.Mo ainm~Talk 20:29, 19 April 2011 (UTC)

I added the dead link tag, and used the link for UK and Ireland. Less contentious.--Domer48_'fenian' 20:30, 19 April 2011 (UTC)

No the source doesn't state that. Here's the source [2]. "UK and Ireland" is too controversial and is clear POV when the source says otherwise, so I'm restoring the more accurate version. LevenBoy (talk) 20:39, 19 April 2011 (UTC)

And also, as I already pointed out, the original edit used British Isles until some ip pushed POV and changed it to UK&I even though it wasn't backed up by the ref. LevenBoy (talk) 20:42, 19 April 2011 (UTC)

OK so we have two BBC sources using the two alternative wordings. That means it is down to consensus among editors. I agree with Betty Logan that we should use a precise term given the option rather than an ambiguous/controversial term. From the look of the above that is the majority view. --Snowded ^TALK 20:45, 19 April 2011 (UTC)

Snowded, study both sources in detail, and the words in the article, and you will see that I am right. Facts; the source I'm using matches the words in the text precisely. The source others are using does not. That source is talking about something completely different - yes, it's confusing to start with but check it out. LevenBoy (talk) 20:48, 19 April 2011 (UTC)

I agree with Betty Logan and Snowded. The preciser term is better. Armbrust ^{Talk to me} _Contribs 20:51, 19 April 2011 (UTC)

But it doesn't match the source  ! ! ! LevenBoy (talk) 20:52, 19 April 2011 (UTC)

The other source says "the first player from outside the UK and Ireland" so both phrases conform with sources. My comments above stand. You really would have more credibility if you edited on any other subject., SPAs to my mind are the cause of too much conflict on wikipedia. --Snowded ^TALK 20:53, 19 April 2011 (UTC)

Have you even read the source Levin Boy it is a couple of lines up in blue you cant miss it, or are you just going to edit war? Mo ainm~Talk 20:55, 19 April 2011 (UTC)

For heavens sake read it, won't you! The source you are going on about makes no mention of being the first player in ranking tournaments, it's about Cliff Thorburn or something. It is a source about something else. LevenBoy (talk) 20:57, 19 April 2011 (UTC)

(ec)SPA account what do you expect? Now Levin is up to 3rr we can expect the alter ego of lemon monday to appear to take up the edit warring cudgel. --Snowded ^TALK 20:58, 19 April 2011 (UTC)

Robertson, who rises to number two in the world, had trailed 5-3 but having edged ahead, kept his nose in front despite not being at his best. He sunk the last ball of a tense, error-ridden final at 0054 BST. The 28-year-old is the first player from outside the UK and Ireland to win the world title since Canadian Cliff Thorburn's victory in 1980. Does the source not say that? can you really not read? Mo ainm~Talk 21:01, 19 April 2011 (UTC)

CURRENT TEXT - The 28-year-old is the first player from outside the UK and Ireland to win the world title since Canadian Cliff Thorburn's victory in 1980.The 28-year-old is the first player from outside the UK and Ireland to win the world title since Canadian Cliff Thorburn's victory in 1980.

BBC SOURCE - His fourth title makes Robertson the most successful player from outside the British Isles in ranking tournaments.

Now Snowded, tell me I'm wrong, and if you just once more refer to me as an SPA or make any more insinuations of sock puppetry I'll report it. LevenBoy (talk) 21:03, 19 April 2011 (UTC)

You are a SPA LevenBoy and you edit in tandem with another SPA LemonMonday, so I think alter ego is a fair enough phrase. Feel free to report this if you want, and feel your own conduct can bear investigation --Snowded ^TALK 21:24, 19 April 2011 (UTC)

Mo aim, your source is something else, about Cliff Thorburn. LevenBoy (talk) 21:03, 19 April 2011 (UTC)

Again have you read the source? Mo ainm~Talk 21:05, 19 April 2011 (UTC)

And BTW the current text is this: "There he defeated 2006 champion Graeme Dott 18–13 to become only the third player from outside of the UK (and only the second from outside of UK and Ireland), and the first Australian, to become world champion in the modern era of the game" Armbrust ^{Talk to me} _Contribs 21:10, 19 April 2011 (UTC)

this says UK and Ireland. This link is dead and was reverted by LevenBoy which is just a blind revert. They then another blind revert. Here is another blind revert. Please do not disrupt the page to make a point. --Domer48_'fenian' 21:06, 19 April 2011 (UTC)

:Yes, your source says The 28-year-old is the first player from outside the UK and Ireland to win the world title since Canadian Cliff Thorburn's victory in 1980.. So tell me, how does that equate to the current edit-warred-out text of His fourth title makes Robertson the most successful player from outside the British Isles in ranking tournaments. ? LevenBoy (talk) 21:09, 19 April 2011 (UTC)

In one of the edits, the correct source was replaced by a wrong source (which used a different terminology), and has still not been corrected. This explains the above confusion over the sources and wording. Christopher Connor (talk) 21:16, 19 April 2011 (UTC)

"But Robertson, who has yet to win a world title, scoffed at suggestions he could now be considered the game's most successful player from outside Britain and Ireland." That is in your source LevenBoy? --Domer48_'fenian' 21:18, 19 April 2011 (UTC)

The source was changed by Levin Boy here Mo ainm~Talk 21:23, 19 April 2011 (UTC)

You're a flat out liar Mo ainm! Go back to this edit [3] which was before User:LemonMonday made his edit which started all this off. Now, does the text being referenced match the second paragraph of the source? If you look carefully you'll see that it does - EXCEPT - in the source it says British Isles and in the text it says UK and Ireland. So who's right here. Also, as I pointed out above, originally the text said British Isles until back in May last year an ip changed it without discussion to UK & I. LevenBoy (talk) 21:30, 19 April 2011 (UTC)

LevenBoy, the source you want to cite also says "But Robertson, who has yet to win a world title, scoffed at suggestions he could now be considered the game's most successful player from outside Britain and Ireland." That is in your source LevenBoy? So even your source is conflicting using both terms. You choose to only use one of them. --Domer48_'fenian' 21:36, 19 April 2011 (UTC)

(edit conflict) x2 I'll remind you that calling another editor a liar is a personal attack, do you deny the edit made in the diff I provided? Also as an SPA it's great the way you cherry pick what you want from the source you and your SPA friend edit warred to insert namely most successful player from outside Britain and Ireland. Mo ainm~Talk 21:40, 19 April 2011 (UTC)

Domer - Quite right, but in the second paragrpah it says His fourth title makes Robertson the most successful player from outside the British Isles in ranking tournaments. and that is the text being referenced. Only problem is, in the article it says His fourth title makes Robertson the most successful player from outside the UK and Ireland in ranking tournaments. So why is the source difeerent from the text? LevenBoy (talk) 21:43, 19 April 2011 (UTC)

Spot on LevenBoy. A source is being used to back up a statement, but the words of the source used in the article have been amended to support politcal POV. The users above are quite well aware that you are right on this point but are being deliberately obstructive by throwing in red herrings all over the place. This one couldn't be more clear. LemonMonday Talk 07:47, 20 April 2011 (UTC)

Tweedledum and Tweeedledee in their Disney incarnation I see, maybe the odd Byrom manifestation would avoid the inevitable conclusion. Otherwise sources support both phrases so lets use the least controversial version shall we. --Snowded ^TALK 08:30, 20 April 2011 (UTC)

No, let's fix the text of the article so that it matches the source. I can't wait fo the next time that you whine about a source not saying British Isles when the text does. LemonMonday Talk 19:46, 20 April 2011 (UTC)

Can this issue please be resolved here without continuous edit warring? I've restored to what seems the 'pre-battle' state. RashersTierney (talk) 00:08, 21 April 2011 (UTC)

The text has both versions and as far as I can see all editors (5/6 depending on how you count reverts on the article) are agreed bar the twin headed SPAs of LemonMonday and LevenMonday and the latest Irvine22 sock --Snowded ^TALK 06:14, 21 April 2011 (UTC)

Snowded, you're a fraud. You have us believe you're some sort of academic, but you can't even write without demonstrating an almost dyslexic confusion. You still refuse to answer the key point - why should the words of a source be changed to fit political POV? As to "consensus", don't forget that the majority of editors here are effectively a single Irish nationalist voice talking and editing as one. LemonMonday Talk 06:33, 21 April 2011 (UTC)

Adding a failure to apply WP:AGF to edit warring are we? The sources support both wordings LemonBoy so it is down to consensus. Oh, I am partially dyslexic by the way, so I don't regard that term as a form of abuse. --Snowded ^TALK 06:36, 21 April 2011 (UTC)

Seems to me, the majority wishs to use UK and Ireland. GoodDay (talk) 06:41, 21 April 2011 (UTC)

(ec) No, they simply don't. The words used are almost a direct quote from the source, except of course BI has been replaced by UK&I. I've got to say this, regardless of AGF, NPA or anything else, but you've shown yourself to be a duplicitous manipulator, and those who suspected this all along can use this current example as clear evidence. LemonMonday Talk 06:44, 21 April 2011 (UTC)

-GoodDay, your interjections are worthless and irritating, just go away. They also often result - as here - in edit conflicts. LemonMonday Talk 06:44, 21 April 2011 (UTC)

WP:3RR, begs to differ on who's being the irritant. GoodDay (talk) 06:48, 21 April 2011 (UTC)

You'll find I'm not in breach of it, but hold on there: think about Snowded - is he also an edit warrior? Yes, I hear you say from across the ocean. Quite right. If you want to complain abot warring compalin about him as well. Have you noticed there's always edit warring and aggravation around all hiw WIkipedia interests. As for this snooker one, he reverts just the same as the Irish nats and everyone else. LemonMonday Talk 06:51, 21 April 2011 (UTC)