Jump to content

Talk:Rick Perry: Difference between revisions

Page contents not supported in other languages.
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Browse history interactively
← Previous editNext edit →
Content deleted Content added
VisualWikitext
BAMP (talk | contribs)
63 edits
Line 129: Line 129:


::::I'd say it's gotten enough coverage to be a notable gaffe, in the campaign section. But I wouldn't spend more than a sentence on it, and one might want to put it in context of it being notable based on other historical gaffes Perry has made (Texas secession, etc).[[Special:Contributions/204.65.34.39|204.65.34.39]] ([[User talk:204.65.34.39|talk]]) 22:10, 20 October 2011 (UTC)
::::I'd say it's gotten enough coverage to be a notable gaffe, in the campaign section. But I wouldn't spend more than a sentence on it, and one might want to put it in context of it being notable based on other historical gaffes Perry has made (Texas secession, etc).[[Special:Contributions/204.65.34.39|204.65.34.39]] ([[User talk:204.65.34.39|talk]]) 22:10, 20 October 2011 (UTC)

== Article needs improvement ==

This article needs improvement. Step back for a moment and think of what a biography is. Then look at the article. There is too much emphasis on the NRA giving him a A or he opposes Obamacare (but he is a state governor, which has no say). Why not include his opinion on Hawaii Five-O or Sudoku? See, let's focus on his biography.

I will let others make suggestions first. This is to show that I am trying to improve Wikipedia, not have a political agenda for or against the man. Only if there are no suggestions will I start adding and deleting. [[User:BAMP|BAMP]] ([[User talk:BAMP|talk]]) 18:13, 24 October 2011 (UTC)

Revision as of 18:13, 24 October 2011

Rick Perry as Governor of Texas - a copy & paste move which deleted material here & lost the page history

This new article is a problem. First, where's the discussion here to remove all the material to a new article? Secondly, as it stands it is copyvio because it's lost all its contribution history. See Wikipedia:Moving_a_page#Fixing_cut_and_paste_moves - it's got to be fixed by someone if it is agreed that this was a good move. I'm also not sure about the title. Dougweller (talk) 06:09, 4 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

It's not a coy/paste move, it's a split. It may not have the proper contribution history, but splits are allowed. See #Sub-articles?, above. — Arthur Rubin (talk) 09:20, 4 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]
The move was inappropriate and undiscussed. The Political views section of this article was gutted by the move, with the editor responsible for the move deciding for himself which subsections stayed and which ones were deleted ("moved"). The entire move was unnecessary and should be undone. ROG5728 (talk) 09:47, 4 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I've undone it and changed the new article to a redirect here pending discussion. Yes, splits are allowed but you still need to do them properly, and as it was done it's also copyvio. If the article is to be split it should be done through a discussion and in a way which gives us two sensible articles, probably with some duplicated material. Dougweller (talk) 09:55, 4 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion is taking place a few sections up Organization_of_article. Morphh (talk) 16:04, 4 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Hm, I see. But I don't seem to be the only one not happy with it. What seems to have been agreed is that "the next step would be to lay out what goes where. And there is the challenge of writing good summary paragraphs in the main article, summarizing the content of the daughter article". Not that the next step would be a copy, delete and paste leaving the problems I mention above. Dougweller (talk) 16:07, 4 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Ya, I think we have some agreement that the article is becoming too long and the Governorship of Rick Perry would be a good sub-article, but haven't discussed the transition. Guess a couple editors are being WP:BOLD and trying to get things done, figuring we'd work the summary out as we go. Either way, I'm sure we'll get it strait. :) Morphh (talk) 16:15, 4 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I started the sub-article this morning based on the conversation above -- I didn't realize there was a similar conversation going on here. Having a sub-article is uncontroversial -- many, many biographical articles have them, including Barack Obama, Sarah Palin, and John McCain. What will no doubt generate controversy is reducing the "Governor" section of this article to a summary. --Coemgenus (talk) 16:33, 4 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]
You were the second person to do this! Anyway, the only controversial thing would be how to do it. See Wikipedia:Summary style which describes how it should be done, and especially Wikipedia:Copying within Wikipedia which deals with the problem of copyvio (which the sub-article technically is at the moment, will you please fix this?). As talk page histories get archived, deleted, etc. I always recommend a null edit (just add a space somewhere and an edit summary saying 'Null edit, this article was copied from whatever). Dougweller (talk) 17:01, 4 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I had no idea attribution would be an issue. I made the null edit as you recommended. --Coemgenus (talk) 17:50, 4 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks. It took me a while to figure this out also, but I've seen at least one editor blocked, but then he was refusing to do this. Dougweller (talk) 18:00, 4 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, it's a mess and has to be cut and summarized substantially. Plus there probably have been improvements here that need to be moved over. It's called a big job. Who wants to take it on?? (Later note User:Coemgenus said on Governorship article he'll try.) CarolMooreDC 16:28, 21 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I just took a moment to review the entire article after the summary style conversion work and I think that over all the editors did a good job. The article was much too long before forcing the reader to wade/skim through much too much local detail to get the gist. The article is still fairly long at 80k. Good job, that task was not easy. Veriss (talk) 03:18, 9 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Stem cells

http://blog.chron.com/rickperry/2011/10/perry-touts-stem-cell-therapy/ Questions raised over legality of Perry’s stem cell treatments

Which section does this go under, personal life or health care policy? Hcobb (talk) 18:12, 2 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Why is the Houston Chronicle not considered a proper source for the Governor of Texas?

c.f.:

Wikipedia:Reliable_sources#Statements_of_opinion

Hcobb (talk) 20:38, 2 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]

"N*ggerhead" hunting camp

This is all over the news, but nowhere on this page, because the slightest mention is reverted. Hcobb (talk) 20:55, 2 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Any contentious claims made in a BLP must be strongly sourced. I noted that the WaPo article which seems to have been one source for the HuffPo opinion piece given as the cite might be usable, but that the claim must be precisely worded in accord with facts in that article. I am sorry if you feel this is censorship in any way, it is just required by Wikipedia policies. Cheers. Collect (talk) 21:14, 2 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I normally don't get too involved in overtly political discourse but this issue needs to be addressed right away. I'll provide some sources from a few of the more liberal oriented papers to get things started:
Need some conservative commentary to balance things out. Let's do this right. Veriss (talk) 04:09, 4 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Wikipedia is not a debating society. The aim is to write BLPs conservatively (not in the political sense of the word) and to that end WP:BLP has specific rules. One of which is that contentious claims must be strongly sourced, and another is that material of minor significance should be given weight only in proportion to its significance. Cheers. Collect (talk) 13:36, 4 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I really don't understand your objection. I provided three WaPost, two NYTimes and one LA Times article as potential sources. What about those sources is not strong? I recognized those three sources are seen by some as having a liberal viewpoint so I suggested that sources from more conservative reliable media, such as the Washington Times, be considered to keep a balance. Veriss (talk) 03:38, 9 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Comment: I don't think the paragraph belongs in the "Presidential Campaign" section. I'm not sure where it should go. If there was a "Controversy" section, I'd say put it there, but there isn't one. -- Adjwilley (talk) 21:28, 7 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not sure that it belongs there as well but since it appears that he and his family have been associated with the camp since 1983, basically his entire political career, it doesn't really belong in the personal section either. I don't think controversy sections are encouraged so one shouldn't be made. Veriss (talk) 03:30, 9 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Controversy sections are common on Wikipedia. How about "Hunting camp controversy"? Here is another article:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/behind-the-rick-perry-hunting-camp-story/2011/10/07/gIQAbNvzTL_story.html --Timeshifter (talk) 14:06, 9 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Find me the controversy section on Barack Obama and we will look at adding one here.--JOJ Hutton 14:25, 9 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Policy: According to Wikipedia founder, Jim Wales on the policy page Wikipedia: Criticism

"The best approach to incorporating negative criticism into the encyclopedia is to integrate it into the article, in a way that does not disrupt the article's flow. The article should be divided into sections based on topics, timeline, or theme – not viewpoint. Negative criticism should be interwoven throughout the topical or thematic sections. Creating a "Criticism" section exacerbates point-of-view problems, and is not encyclopedic."

There is a much more in depth discussion about it on that page but the take-away is that dedicated controversy sections are often just potential dumping grounds, adversely affect due weight and are disencouraged. Veriss (talk) 02:44, 10 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Comment: Here's my two cents on the matter. Does this belong in an article about Rick Perry? Yes, it is a big deal. Does this belong in his biography? Not really. I'd personally say lets put this in his presidential campaign article and call it a day. Kessy628 (talk) 17:19, 9 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I think it does belong in his biography. It is not an isolated gaffe or oopsie that happened while on the campaign trail last month. It appears to have been part and parcel to his whole 28-year political career. Many will feel that his association with it reflects on his humility, wisdom, judgement and commonsense; if not also his capacity for awareness of racial issues. It is part of Rick Perry the person and the career politician, not just the 2012 campaign. Veriss (talk) 02:19, 10 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Actually most in the media have already moved on. Its really a non-story compared to attending a racist church, which also is not in anyone's biography.--JOJ Hutton 02:45, 10 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Let's be careful to keep our comments centered on the point at hand, and not make snide political remarks about what is and isn't in another wiki page. What is or is not added should be based on wiki policy, not a political tit for tat POV pushing. 204.65.34.39 (talk) 22:08, 20 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Subprime Perry

http://www.boston.com/news/local/new_hampshire/articles/2011/10/03/perry_bet_big_on_tax_grants_to_subprime_lenders/

Is the AP a reliable source anymore? Hcobb (talk) 13:53, 3 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]

The AP churns out a lot of stories that are heavily abridged by their subscribing media outlets. So the answer to your question is that it depends. The Washington Post editors did a much more in depth analysis of the same article that appears to be more balanced then the abridged boston.com article and would be a better starting point for research.
The WaPo version includes context such as motives for governors, that caps were put in place for Texas loans, some enterprise funds were contractually recouped from Countrywide and that his Attorney General conducted investigations. If it doesn't become a national campaign issue then it may be best to present it in the Governorship sub-article. Veriss (talk) 04:02, 9 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]

WP:3RR

(An Editor) has been officially warned about that policy and the fact that anyone could likely report the current apparent violation at WP:AN/EW. Cheers. Collect (talk) 01:00, 12 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Wow, and I was worrying that I had become too confrontational regarding this article. Sir, you just called out an editor by name on the talk pages. That is really not good. I won't insult you by pasting in the WP:Links concerning AGF that say we shouldn't do that as you are an experienced editor with almost 20k edits and surely know about them. I have taken a couple breaks from this article, perhaps you might consider one as well. Veriss (talk) 07:49, 12 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Neutrally worded notices are not "attacks." I have made few edits to this article other than to follow WP:BLP requirements which some seem to forget. Cheers. Collect (talk) 13:01, 12 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Policy on the English Civil War

http://firstread.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2011/10/12/8279640-perry-commits-post-debate-gaffe-on-revolutionary-war

What section does support for the English Civil War go under? Hcobb (talk) 15:45, 12 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Prolly as "really important" as someone saying there are 57 states. The English Civil War was in the 17th century. Wikipedia has enough totally unimportant stuff that it need not seek out further unimportant stuff. `Collect (talk) Collect (talk) 18:29, 12 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Perry appears to be referring to the American Revolution, and not the English Civil War. -Darouet (talk) 22:08, 12 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
It looks like a simple slip of the tongue rather than a significant gaffe. Unless the story gets more traction it'd be too trivial to add. If it does get more attention it'd belong in the campaign article.   Will Beback  talk  22:27, 12 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I'd say it's gotten enough coverage to be a notable gaffe, in the campaign section. But I wouldn't spend more than a sentence on it, and one might want to put it in context of it being notable based on other historical gaffes Perry has made (Texas secession, etc).204.65.34.39 (talk) 22:10, 20 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Article needs improvement

This article needs improvement. Step back for a moment and think of what a biography is. Then look at the article. There is too much emphasis on the NRA giving him a A or he opposes Obamacare (but he is a state governor, which has no say). Why not include his opinion on Hawaii Five-O or Sudoku? See, let's focus on his biography.

I will let others make suggestions first. This is to show that I am trying to improve Wikipedia, not have a political agenda for or against the man. Only if there are no suggestions will I start adding and deleting. BAMP (talk) 18:13, 24 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Retrieved from "https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Rick_Perry&oldid=457184882"