Wikipedia:Deletion review/Log/2012 February 14

14 February 2012

User:Bittergrey/CAMH_Promotion

User:Bittergrey/CAMH_Promotion (talk|edit|history|logs|links|watch) (XfD|restore)

This user-space list of diffs seems to have been speedy-deleted without discussion. DGG, the nominator, had elsewhere stated that he was not neutral and "too involved"[7]. The list was less than a week old. I was gathering the diffs to have a more objective answer to a question asked to me at WP:COI/N.

I understand that a non-neutral admin might not like what the diffs conveyed, especially when viewed collectively. I also understand that since they are diffs, not RS's, what they convey should not be edited into mainspace articles. However, I believe this user-space list about a Wikipedia-related matter does not require deletion, much less speedy-delete without discussion. BitterGrey (talk) 01:25, 14 February 2012 (UTC)

• Just take a look at it. (If you're not an admin, I can email you the contents). Accumulation of material for attack on another editor. Does anyone thinks I should send it to MfD to call attention to it,which I suppose is what BG is trying to accomplish? Does anyone want to take the responsibility for blocking the person who's been accumulating this? As BG says, I'm too involved to do that myself, and certainly too involved to act as a mediator. But I'm not too involved to delete an attack p. DGG ( talk ) 02:23, 14 February 2012 (UTC)

DGG, would you care to detail why those diffs are really so dangerous? Diffs keep us anchored in what really happened. Regarding "accumulation of material for attack on another editor," this is an assumption of bad faith, a violation of WP:AGF. An admin should know better.

Also, please provide diffs for your comments on my talk page, DGG. I'm pretty sure you've made at least two errors[8], but can't be sure since you didn't provide any diffs.

As for attack pages, DGG, I notice you haven't deleted these two[9][10].BitterGrey (talk) 03:00, 14 February 2012 (UTC)

• Comment Since diffs are often, and reasonably, demanded for dispute resolution, it can be appropriate to create relevant lists. However, precedent seems to be that some such lists should not be kept on-wiki and I can go along with this. In this case a second admin performed the deletion. If BitterGrey has now lost his work, DGG should be (and I think is) willing to email it to BG for maintenance offline. Thincat (talk) 11:50, 14 February 2012 (UTC)

Three seconds. Fastily made 42 deletions in that two-minute period and is currently being discussed at ANI. Regarding this diff list, there was no discussion, and no indication that he gave more than 3-seconds of thought to the deletion. He probably went just by DGG's conclusion, not realizing that DGG wasn't neutral. Unlike DGG, I won't assume a hostile intent: Fastily's deletion was probably in good faith, but not given enough thought.

My preference would be to keep the list on-wiki, if only to keep DGG and friends from calling it an 'off-wiki attack.' Of course, this history should be available: I think attempts to hide this history are indications that someone has something to hide. BitterGrey (talk) 14:19, 14 February 2012 (UTC)

• • At this point, after the attack on my neutrality above, I agree that I should not take any further admin actions. Like many others involved in this subject, I started out neutral--not just neutral, but initially ignorant of the issues. Having learned the issues, I remain sympathetic to all parties involved. But having dealt with the people, and tried as hard as I could to keep a matter that involve not just on-wiki but RW charges affecting personal and academic integrity, I have remained I think on the whole neutral until now, though not from now on. Now experiencing the attitude of one of the people involved, it is clear that my efforts at urging restraint have clearly not succeeded. (I should explain that this is not a case of people resorting to off wiki action to support editing here, but the opposite--a RW debate (if debate is not too polite a word) that has carried over here). I therefore suggest to BG that I will restore the page if BG wishes to promptly proceed to try for a proper resolution of the matter, presumably via RfC, though I expect it will go further. DGG ( talk ) 17:50, 14 February 2012 (UTC)

DGG, please learn the difference between quoting what you wrote (with diff) and an "attack." This antagonistic negativity isn't helping anyone. If you are willing to restore the page, that would be great. However, given the breadth of the patterns that emerged, I'm not going to commit to any particular timeline to 'fix' everything. Rushing to do so would be, at best, disruptive. My goal is transparency: I used Wikipedia histories to build a bigger picture - something anyone can do if they put the time into it. No secrets, no accusations, just history. If Wikipedia collectively knows about that history and the consensus is not to care, that would be fine. Of course, that should be the collective decision, not yours or mine. BitterGrey (talk) 18:29, 14 February 2012 (UTC)

Collecting diffs of this sort without using them has normally been held to be an attack. The general feeling has been it leads to increased disharmony. Viewing it that way isn't my private decision, it's part of the practices i'm supposed to be enforcing. either you want this resolved, or you want to continue to build up resentment. There are only two proper things do with disputes of this nature: to ask the help of the community to settle them, or to not let them interfere with the editing. In the one case, you want the diffs to use them in a regular process. In the other case, you don't need them on-wiki. Your choice. To insist on having them here without wanting to use them shows a desire to continue the sort of hostility that amounts to personal attacks. You brought this here. I always recommend acting as if everyone were friends to a certain extent for the sake of the encyclopedia, and not pursuing matters. That remains my advice. But if you can't do that, or even if you don't want to do that for whatever reasons, that's why we have the procedures for resolving the conflicts. I don't think it reasonable to have it both ways: to encourage dissension, but refuse to settle it. DGG ( talk ) 19:03, 14 February 2012 (UTC)

Re: "You brought this here."[11] and "a RW debate (if debate is not too polite a word) that has carried over here"[12]. DGG, please substantiate or retract your diffless statements. Again, I think you need to get your facts straight. This is an on-wiki matter about Wikipedia content. BitterGrey (talk) 20:09, 14 February 2012 (UTC)

Comment: DGG removed[13] my request that he support or retract these and other specific negative statements, after deleting my comment[14] to give himself the last word. Clearly, he was too quick to make accusations and now can't be bothered to support those accusations. How common is this type of behavior among admins? BitterGrey (talk) 03:06, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

• Undelete- No discussion. Nominator has been "too involved"[15] for several months, mistakenly seems to think this is RW problem, and is not assuming good faith. Deleter did so in 3 seconds.BitterGrey (talk) 20:54, 14 February 2012 (UTC)
• Comment: while patrolling CAT:CSD I saw that page (and two similar ones) tagged as attack pages, and thought about them for more than an hour. As more than seven hours elapsed from tagging to deletion, a number of other admins must have looked at them too. When Fastily deleted them, I was drafting a reply declining the speedy, saying that I did not consider they fell within the definition of WP:CSD#G10, that they could be taken to MfD under WP:UP#POLEMIC, but that even there I thought, as they were less than three days old, their author could mount a defence under the clause that says "The compilation of factual evidence (diffs) in user subpages, for purposes such as preparing for a dispute resolution process, is permitted provided it will be used in a timely manner." DGG, is there more than meets the eye here? Why do you think that clause does not apply? JohnCD (talk) 20:40, 14 February 2012 (UTC)
• I have reverted my deletion, and have sent it to MfD for a community discussion at Wikipedia:Miscellany for deletion/User:Bittergrey/CAMH Promotion. I have nominated it, but will not be discussing it further. (I think the clause does not apply because the user has said, above, they will not commit to using it promptly) DGG ( talk ) 04:20, 15 February 2012 (UTC)

DGG, I still expect you to support or retract your negative comments, specifically "You brought this here."[16] and "a RW debate (if debate is not too polite a word) that has carried over here"[17]. This is an on-wiki matter about Wikipedia content, and admin powers do not include license to hit-and-run. BitterGrey (talk)

• Question DGG has started another deletion discussion while this one hasn't formally closed yet. Could I ask a _neutral_ admin what the likelihood of an "undelete" closure would have been? Given DGG's mishandling of things, his diffless insinuations, and that he is now outside even the letter of Wikipedia procedure[18], I'm getting a really bad feeling about the upper authority structure at Wikipedia. Specifically, I'm hesitant to let him dictate a less favorable "relist" outcome. BitterGrey (talk) 05:56, 15 February 2012 (UTC)
• Close. Undeleted and listed at Wikipedia:Miscellany for deletion/User:Bittergrey/CAMH Promotion. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 06:38, 15 February 2012 (UTC)
• Note: I have closed Wikipedia:Miscellany for deletion/User:Bittergrey/CAMH Promotion as a WP:POINTy nomination. This discussion needs to be completed first. ···日本穣^? · 投稿 · Talk to Nihonjoe · Join WP Japan! 06:43, 15 February 2012 (UTC)
• List at MfD. The page is not a clear attack page. It may, however, violate WP:UP#POLEMIC or be otherwise undesirable. XfD is the place for discussion of the merits of the page. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 06:57, 15 February 2012 (UTC)

Comment:"The compilation of factual evidence (diffs) in user subpages, for purposes such as preparing for a dispute resolution process, is permitted provided it will be used in a timely manner." The list of diffs was only three days old when first deleted, and I'm not a full-time Wikipedian. My concern is that DGG and friends (who are full-time wikipedians) will try to keep me bogged down in multiple deletion discussions and equally pointless deflections to preclude me from doing any good in a timely manner. BitterGrey (talk) 07:14, 15 February 2012 (UTC)

• Either endorse outright or move speedily to MFD and delete it there. User is clearly less interested in dispute resolution than in keeping this publicly viewable for as long as possible (see his edits to the MFD, or the current header on this userpage). There's nothing here that couldn't be edited just as easily offline. 74.74.150.139 (talk) 07:25, 15 February 2012 (UTC)

Comment: Actually, the intent there was to synchronize the concurrent speedy and non-speedy deletion nominations, to try to reduce the amount of debating. Given that the list has only existed for three days (excluding time deleted) and already has two deletion nominations, I had hoped to discourage new nominations for deletion, at least for the next couple days.BitterGrey (talk) 07:52, 15 February 2012 (UTC)

Question: Would others approve of offline development? I'm willing to do so, but (as stated before) would prefer to develop this on-wiki, if only so that DGG and friends can't label it an 'off-wiki attack.'BitterGrey (talk) 14:34, 15 February 2012 (UTC)

• Endorse. While there are some procedural oddities here. I regard the page as a clear example of an appropriate G10 deletion. If you want to start an RfC you may do so, but you may not gather and present accusations in userspace this way. Eluchil404 (talk) 07:32, 15 February 2012 (UTC)
• Endorse. I agree with DGG and Eluchil404. Polisher of Cobwebs (talk) 08:27, 15 February 2012 (UTC)

Comment: DGG acted to implement relist[19].

• Endorse. I commented above. G10 deletion looks appropriate to me and nothing in this DRV changes my view. Had the page been only an annotated series of diffs I would have thought MfD appropriate. Thincat (talk) 09:33, 15 February 2012 (UTC)

Question: Might I ask what changed your mind? It is still an annotated list of diffs that an involved admin is trying to delete. Were DGG's "procedural oddities" that persuasive? I'm also curious about the sudden chorus. BitterGrey (talk) 14:34, 15 February 2012 (UTC)

BG, I did what I thought would satisfy you. it was my intent that this be closed since I relisted it elsewhere. I apologize for not making that clearer, but I didn't want to close this, since I've agreed to do no admin function respecting you. I'm glad someone closed the MfD, since it shouldnt be at two places . DGG ( talk ) 15:13, 15 February 2012 (UTC)

DGG, When is this 'now-I'm neutral-now-I'm-not' dance ever going to end?

You've been non-neutral in this issue since some time in 2008. When I got involved in 2011, you "banned" me without due procedure[20]. (You retracted that suddenly too[21].) Are you concerned that a real truthtelling will find out something you don't want known? Now I regret that, in the little time I had to spend developing this list, I didn't spend more time documenting your role in this tangled mess.

Again, support or retract the growing list of undiffed negative comments you have made against me. BitterGrey (talk) 15:40, 15 February 2012 (UTC)

In reply to BG "what changed your mind?": I can now see the page in question, previously I could not. My change has been from uncertainty to "endorse", not from "overturn" to "endorse". Thincat (talk) 19:33, 15 February 2012 (UTC)

• Comment The sudden chorus of editors and IPs voting to endorse a position DGG no longer supports[22] seems to be due to my edit at the other discussion[23]. It has been described as a "boldfaced, all-caps rant"[24], perhaps rightly so. The truth is I've never had one of my user pages deleted, much less double-delete proposed by a "too involved" admin (his words, not mine[25]). The procedure I read said this shouldn't happen, and so didn't give me any guidance about what to do. (Attack pages against me have been let to fester for months, with one nearing its first birthday. Not sure if any of those ever got deleted.) I don't enjoy arguing and was hoping to head off multiple, active deletion debates. BitterGrey (talk) 15:21, 15 February 2012 (UTC)
  • Actually, Bittergrey, the diff you provided seems to suggest that DGG still thinks the page should be deleted. Also, for what it is worth, my endorsing deletion of it had nothing to do with the second diff you provide. It is best not to make assumptions about other editors' motives. Polisher of Cobwebs (talk) 19:21, 15 February 2012 (UTC)

I'm open to other explanations as to why all the votes to endorse in this week-long debate came within a two-hour period. BitterGrey (talk) 15:52, 18 February 2012 (UTC)

• Okay, I'm confused. The DRV was opened because it was felt that DGG deleted something out of process. DGG admitted he may have been in error, reversed his speedy deletion, and put it up at MFD to obtain consensus on whether or not deletion was warranted. And that nomination was then closed as pointy? I don't get it. Once he reversed his decision and allowed it to go up for discussion, why was this DRV not closed and that MFD not allowed to continue? If the page was worthy of being kept, the consensus at MFD likely would have reflected this. Close this DRV and re-open the MFD, and allow it to proceed for the full time, is all I can really say here, based on what I can see. Umbralcorax (talk) 20:12, 15 February 2012 (UTC)

It would have been less problematic if this discussion had been closed before the other discussion had started. All we know for sure is that procedures were not followed. This fiasco was, at best, poorly handled by an admin who is, in his own words, "too involved[26]". "Pointy" is putting it mildly: I would consider any use of DGG's administrative powers authority against me since he declared non-neutrality in 2011 as abuses of that power authority. BitterGrey (talk) 20:50, 15 February 2012 (UTC)

Once the MFD was opened, this DRV should have been closed as moot. Period. There is no need to keep thwacking at this dead horse when the admin admitted he made a mistake and turned the deletion decision over to the community. Umbralcorax (talk) 21:07, 15 February 2012 (UTC)

(edit conflict) BitterGrey, to be fair, DGG did not use admin powers against you in this case: he did not delete these pages, he tagged them as G10, which any user could do, and left them in the CSD list for another admin to decide about. He used admin powers to undelete them in order to take them to MfD, but you can't say that was using admin powers against you. JohnCD (talk) 21:15, 15 February 2012 (UTC)

Clarified. Technically the "ban" didn't involve admin powers either - it just would have been laughable if a non-admin did it. I seem to have missed the admission of wrongdoing, or the retraction of any of the wrong statements he's made in this discussion. As for the renomination, it seems to have brought a chorus for 'Endorse', while before the trend seemed to be 'relist' or maybe even 'undelete,' so it wasn't necessarily an act in my favor. BitterGrey (talk) 01:33, 16 February 2012 (UTC)

• Bittergrey, there are good reasons why you don't get to make a laundry list of diffs and accusations in your own userspace. You're publishing dirt about someone in a place they may not see, and/or may not feel they have the right to reply. Your laundry list of diffs and accusations belongs in some kind of text document on your own computer, or any other kind of unpublished state, until you actually lauch an RFC. Do you see?—S Marshall T/C 11:54, 16 February 2012 (UTC)

I have to disagree on multiple points. "The compilation of factual evidence (diffs) in user subpages, for purposes such as preparing for a dispute resolution process, is permitted provided it will be used in a timely manner.". As for inviting others to contribute, the only invite I was able to get out before the deletion is here. Please note that there is no "except you" statement, and assuming one is yet another violation of good faith. That is also an example of my use of the list. I had hoped to use it conversationally on talk pages instead of building it up as some massive out-of-the-blue "attack". Less disruptive for Wikipedia, and less work for me. Given the multiple undiff'ed accusations that I had not planned to use the list above, I'll add a redundant and boldfaced link to that instance where the list was already used. I regret that others don't take the time to gather diffs like I have tried to. BitterGrey (talk) 15:04, 16 February 2012 (UTC)

There's a huge difference between collecting a handful of relevant diffs in userspace in preparation for a full RFC, and writing a massive tract about a particular user on its own separate userpage. Wikipedia's general policies about content that's defamatory towards a named person do apply in your userspace, and everywhere else on the whole site. (Famously, Gwen Gale once deleted an entire AfD on grounds of BLP violations.)—S Marshall T/C 19:46, 16 February 2012 (UTC)

That was a quote from Wikipedia policy (although the link needed fixing). Disagreements with it should be discussed there, not here.BitterGrey (talk) 02:51, 17 February 2012 (UTC)

It was a quote from a guideline, actually. BLP is policy, though.—S Marshall T/C 09:11, 17 February 2012 (UTC)

This reading of BLP makes it a form of diplomatic immunity: A living person would be able to produce an endless stream of sockpuppets, using them to promote himself and demote their competitors. Wikipedia readers would know only that Wikipedia agrees fully with that person. Wikipedia editors who knew better would be barred from ever mentioning the truth - it would be a BLP violation. Of course, this too is based on the mistaken assumption that this diff list is some attack against Cantor: It was actually started to explore the promotion of Cantor by another editor (who, to the best of my knowledge, is not Cantor). The only reason it might look like such is because that is what I found when looking into who was promoting Cantor. BitterGrey (talk) 15:24, 18 February 2012 (UTC)

• Its interesting that nobody has yet commented on the validity of the assertions. If it is true that Cantor's name cited in large part due to self-citations, then he might be guilty of a pretty severe WP:NOT violation; using Wikipedia as a means of self-promotion. The proper thing to do with this evidence is to discuss its validity and whether or not he breached WP:NOT. Deleting the page without discussion of the evidence on it just serves to bury what might be legitimate criticism. FWIW I think the undeletion was a good move and the early closure of the MfD unjustified. ThemFromSpace 21:38, 16 February 2012 (UTC)

That's the province of Del Rev? That all disputes come here to be settled?. (Given the ARS template and its relatives, it does sometimes seem that way.) But FWIW, it seems WMC's recent edits have been to propose his work as sources on article talk pages. As I understand it, that's just what he's supposed to do. DGG ( talk ) 01:40, 17 February 2012 (UTC)

DGG: Didn't you say something about not discussing this further[27]?

Themfromspace: The complication is that James Cantor couldn't have done it alone. There were others who noticed the pattern and could have kept Marionthelibrarion's edits in check if he did not have the assistance of others, including DGG. An example of the two "librarians" engaged in an edit war against a common foe is here[28][29][30][31][32]. That written, I don't know whether DGG's multiple nominations for deletion were to protect himself, Cantor, or the more involved editor who's recent edits triggered the list development. (Yes, all those who assumed the list was intended primarily as some attack against Cantor are wrong. Since Cantor's current behavior isn't bad and closely monitored, I'm not expecting any disciplinary action against him due to these past edits. A skeptical review of the fruits of what is now known to be self-promotion, perhaps, but not disciplinary action against Cantor.) BitterGrey (talk) 02:31, 17 February 2012 (UTC)

• Question: To avoid the appearance of an attack, I excluded the name of the editor who's edits I was looking into from most comments on the list and most discussions about this list. (It was in the first version of the list, however, for 26 minutes[33]). He has not extended the same courtesy in the _two_[34][35] pages he is maintaining against me. Should I put it back in? BitterGrey (talk) 20:11, 18 February 2012 (UTC)
• Well if I'm essentially being involved now, I might as well endorse deletion. The page had a collection of diffs mostly from 2008 and 2010 regarding conflict of interest in citing one's self. I fail to see their relevance now, particularly when the editor in question (James Cantor (talk · contribs)) is now scrupulously adhering to the kinds of guidelines found in WP:COS, [36], [37], to the point of bringing up his own conduct on COIN [38]. I'm frankly not sure what I'm doing there, since I have no conflict of interest regarding James Cantor or his organization. I don't see how the page can go anywhere seeing as it seems to be little more than either a list of people who, in the past, have cited James Cantor's work (and as Cantor is an expert in the areas his publications are added to, publishing in reliable sources - this is laudable, not a problem) or a list of people against whom Bittergrey has a grudge. Certainly there's nothing that would be useful in a RFC/U for a user's current conduct and many of the diffs in question are utterly unremarkable (such as James Cantor noting he is the current editor of a journal [39]). If the purpose of the page is to prove that James Cantor cites himself, that's also obvious, and no longer an issue (since he now obviously complies with WP:COS). If the purpose of the page is to prove that people cite James Cantor - that's obvious and unimportant unless there is somehow an assumption that citing James Cantor's work is inherently wrong. It's not, Cantor is a known expert in the field publishing in reliable sources. The page can never go anywhere that I can see. WLU (t) (c) Wikipedia's rules:^simple/_complex 20:44, 18 February 2012 (UTC)

WP:Kettle, WLU. You've been nursing attack pages against me for nearly a year[40][41]. As for Cantor, you responded to his post only after I commented on the article, and then only to express that you had not read the article but were determined to cite, even though you had not yet read it. Your exact words were "I'll read and integrate it." You didn't engage in the discussion (which was trending toward not to cite at all[42]) but edit warred to insert the citation in multiple places[43][44] with a new paragraph dedicated to Cantor[45]. Multiple editors needed to get involved to restrain you.

Let's consider a more blatant example, Cantor's chapter in the Oxford textbook of psychopathology. It is a general article on the paraphilias, cited ten times in all of Wikipedia. WLU cited it NINE times [46][47][48][49][50]4x[51]. If this reference were truly that important, it doesn't make that no one else was citing it. (#10 is at Courtship_disorder, added by Cantor[52]).

I would ask those reviewing the list to note that (unlike WLU's attack pages against me) I only had a few days to work on the list before the first deletion. I also focused initially on promotion away from the pages I was familiar with. One of the possibilities I was exploring was that WLU was only promoting Cantor to get revenge on me. It does seem that he only promotes Cantor in articles I've edited. BitterGrey (talk) 22:33, 18 February 2012 (UTC)

This is the page to discuss whether your subpage should be undeleted - not user conduct. Feel free to bring up my conduct at the appropriate venue. WLU (t) (c) Wikipedia's rules:^simple/_complex 02:11, 19 February 2012 (UTC)

You argued that my list could never amount to anything, I countered by demonstrating that there was much I hadn't had a chance to include (it was effectively three days old) and that you had a conflict of interest in calling for its deletion. What you did not argue is why it is somehow wrong for me to spend a couple days on an objective history survey (so objective that most probably thought it was about Cantor instead) while you have been nursing two laundry lists of my every perceived wrong for months. These perceived wrongs include, among many many other things, my asking an admin for advice regarding your laundry lists[53]. BitterGrey (talk) 14:49, 19 February 2012 (UTC)

• Request: At only 71 hours old before the first deletion, that the subject of my survey was WLU[54] was probably not clear at first glance. Now that it has been stated explicitly, could I ask all those who have not yet voted to restore my list of diffs to review the lists WLU has been maintaining against me for nearly a year[55][56] and restate their position? If he didn't want people gathering history on him, he shouldn't be gathering history on other people. BitterGrey (talk) 06:42, 24 February 2012 (UTC)

• Overturn speedy deletion. The relevant section of our userpage guideline states, "The compilation of factual evidence (diffs) in user subpages, for purposes such as preparing for a dispute resolution process, is permitted provided it will be used in a timely manner." Assuming that BitterGrey was using this page to compile evidence for an imminent DR filing – and I don't see why we shouldn't – the page falls under a specific exemption from WP:ATP and therefore should not have been deleted under G10. Firstly, there is no indication that this was intended to remain in userspace for the long-term, as the page only existed for three days before it was tagged for deletion. Secondly, the content of the page is not blatantly inappropriate for being kept temporarily in userspace. S Marshall wrote above that "there's a huge difference between collecting a handful of relevant diffs in userspace in preparation for a full RFC, and writing a massive tract about a particular user on its own separate userpage." While that may be, my judgment is that this page is far closer to falling in the first category than in the second.

  However, BitterGrey should take note that the same guideline I refenced above also states, "Negative evidence, laundry lists of wrongs, collations of diffs and criticisms related to problems, etc., should be removed, blanked, or kept privately (i.e., not on the wiki) if they will not be imminently used, and the same once no longer needed." So BitterGrey should be given a period of time to compile his evidence and use it to initiate whatever DR process he has in mind; if he fails to do so during that time, the page may be deleted at MfD. If I recall correctly, the unwritten rule used to be that editors had to use the evidence within six months or else the page would be deleted. Six months strikes me as too long. In this case, I think the page should be deleted in two months if BitterGrey has not used it in a DR process by that time. A Stop at Willoughby (talk) 02:22, 2 March 2012 (UTC)