Talk:Homeopathy

To Do List

add explanation of healing crisis in the context of homeopathy, and how this relates to how homeopathy is claimed to work, including both the homeopathic explanation, and the conventional medical critique. add a broad-brush description of the work of Constantine Hering and James Tyler Kent and how it differs from Hahnemann, keeping the depth of coverage appropriate for a summary article. Kent is noted for "the well-known Kent repertory, on which virtually all modern practise of homeopathy is based" homeopathic hospitals in the late 18th and early 19th centuries were attended by the rich and powerful as the best locations where one could get better. They were relatively clean and calm institutions that had a better cure rate than many of the mainstream clinics of the day. Of course, this was due to the fact that most mainstream hospitals of the day were filthy places where one was more likely to die of an infection rather than be cured. In this, homeopaths of that era were closer to the do no harm dictum of the Hipocratic Oath than many of their contemporaries and, indeed, many practices perfected in homeopathic hospitals are still employed today as best practices for palliative care. The fact that they didn't use the "heroic" measures in common use, such as bloodletting, powerful drugs like arsenic, strychnine, mercury, belladonna, etc. meant that more patients survived, since these drugs often caused more deaths. In many cases doing what amounted to nothing, i.e. placebo homeopathic treatment, was better than doing something, i.e. overkill with poisons, thus letting the body's own recuperative powers do the healing, which for many ordinary ailments is just fine.

Sentence added to 4th paragraph of lead

On September 20, Drg85 added this sentence to the 4th paragraph of the lead:

A recent review regarding the proposed mechanisms for homeopathy found they were precluded by the laws of physics from having any effect.

with this comment:

Added a reference to recently published paper on physical and chemical analysis of homoepathy

On September 30, I removed it, with this comment:

"Laws of physics" point was made in 1st para, and confuses main point of 4th para, which is testing for mechanisms unknown to mainstream science.

Skinwalker put it back, with this comment:

rv removal of sourced text

I removed it again, with this comment:

Please discuss this on the talk page.

And then SkepticalRaptor put it back, with this comment:

Reverted to longstanding NPOV version.

The sentence is not longstanding. It was added 10 days ago. The point is made in the first paragraph. It confuses the 4th paragraph, which is about testing for effects of homeopathy that would come about through mechanisms unknown to science. I think repeating the point in the middle of the 4th paragraph is simply bad writing. If there is some reason for including this sentence in the 4th paragraph, would you please tell what it is? Then we can find a way to address that reason without gratuitous repetition, incoherent flow, or some other kind of other bad writing. —Ben Kovitz (talk) 06:42, 1 October 2012 (UTC)

• This is exactly the sort of thing we should avoid doing. To call this NPOV is a travesty. We are not here to debunk homeopathy. Support removal. --John (talk) 09:29, 1 October 2012 (UTC)

The placement in the fourth paragraph of this referenced material fits in naturally behind the sentence it follows. While I would agree that a minor tweaking of the whole lead would be good, to remove this info from where it is now is wrong.Support keep. John, the link to WP:GREATWRONGS is not applicable here since it's not OR. UPDATE- I somehow missed the original intent of the comment. The sentence is duplication of info in 1st paragraph. Strong Remove. --Daffydavid (talk) 22:28, 10 October 2012 (UTC)

GREATWRONGS relates not to OR but to TE, which I would argue this is coming close towards. Again, this is a complex and nuanced area and not for debunkers (or advocates). It's also under probation I believe so anybody joining in an edit-war could be under threat of immediate sanctions. Jut saying. --John (talk) 12:38, 1 October 2012 (UTC)

Daffydavid, would you please tell a reason why you think the sentence flows naturally in the 4th paragraph? Here on Wikipedia, we prefer to make decisions by consensus, not by voting. If we understand your reason, we can find a way to address that as well as the specific problems identified above. --Ben Kovitz (talk) 13:19, 1 October 2012 (UTC)

Ben Kovitz, don't be pedantic, you aren't the only one who understands the difference be consensus and voting. The sentence fits because - sentence 1 says trials investigated a possible unknown mechanism of action, sentence 2 says "sorry it doesn't work", sentence 3 says the reason no unknown mechanism is found and why the "medicine" doesn't work is a violation of scientific principals. To me this flows naturally. My comment about the lead is that paragraph one states that homeopathy doesn't work so there is a small degree of duplication. I however am not going to wade into that minefield and propose any changes. --Daffydavid (talk) 16:02, 3 October 2012 (UTC)

Daffydavid, thanks for explaining why you think the sentence flows naturally (but no thanks for the "pedantic" remark). I disagree, but I'll think on it further and see if I can come up with wording that addresses both of our concerns. I hope you will, too; the "minefield" need not be so frightening. —Ben Kovitz (talk) 11:15, 5 October 2012 (UTC)

" We can record the righting of great wrongs". It's not OR to include what is already published in a journal and WP:GREATWRONGS doesn't apply. THe issue with debunking is where people use synthesis to do it. IRWolfie- (talk) 10:10, 6 October 2012 (UTC)

Reading over the lead just now, I noticed that this point about violating the laws of science/physics/chemistry occurs in the 1st para, the 2nd para, and the 3rd para. Does anyone not agree that saying this three times in the lead is too many? —Ben Kovitz (talk) 20:19, 10 October 2012 (UTC)

I think paragraph 2 and 3 should be made into one paragraph because of duplicate and similar material. Paragraph 4 contains the duplication mentioned in the discussion at "Sentence added to 4th paragraph of lead" and needs that sentence removed. --Daffydavid (talk)

How about this?

para 1: definition and rejection by science

para 2: main homeopathic practices

para 3: zero dilution's clash with scientific theory

para 4: homeopathy's effectiveness in practice, regardless of theory

This is actually what we have now, except for the sentence in question. —Ben Kovitz (talk) 23:10, 10 October 2012 (UTC)

Homeopathy is not effective in practice. Just to be entirely clear on that. It appears effective due to the usual human inability to make rational observations about ourselves, but the evidence is pretty clear: homeopathy has no effect, but placebo does. Substituting any other worthless healing ritual for homeopathy would have exactly the same results. Guy (Help!) 07:30, 24 October 2012 (UTC)

Support Remove. Since the start of this discussion the phrase in the paragraph has been revised to say 'Homeopathy is precluded by the laws of physics from having any effect.'

1. This now grammatically unqualified statement is very misleading. It is a rewording of the source paper's title, not the papers contents. The claim as it stamds is not included in the papers summary: or in authors description of the paper:

A scientifically qualified statement, which is supported by the source paper might be that: 'The laws of physics indicate that any effect of homeopathy is physically impossible". However, as others have said, a revision to the lead as a whole would seem the best longer term option. And Para 4 might be used to cover: Scientific Studies that have observed the effectiveness of homeopathy, and how this compares with placebo studies (without going over the scientific theory issues already in previous paragraphs) Fuzzything (talk) 22:18, 7 November 2012 (UTC)

What? "Scientific Studies that have observed the effectiveness of homeopathy....."? Just say "Scientific studies of homeopathy...." Moriori (talk) 00:00, 8 November 2012 (UTC)

Indeed, randomized controlled trials are, by definition, not observational studies. —MistyMorn (talk) 10:46, 8 November 2012 (UTC)

Right. I would be very happy with Paragraph 4 being used to cover "Scientific Trials of homeopathy".

Basically, If the theory can be kept to the earlier paragraphs then I am completely happy to support it.

The phrase "The mechanisms of Homeopathy are precluded by the laws of physics from having any effect." would need to be removed from this part, in this case, but a revising of this sentace into a accurate representation of the citation would surely be placable elsewhere in the lead or body. What do you think? Fuzzything (talk) 20:51, 8 November 2012 (UTC)

I really don't see the problem. Paragraph 4 currently summarizes the large "Evidence" section. Scientifically, any biological plausibility is precluded by the laws of physics. So, even if randomized trials did, taken together, provide some apparent clinical evidence of effectiveness beyond placebo (as to some extent they seemed to around the 1990s), one would look for methodological flaws in the trials and their meta-analyses to explain false positive outcomes (a bit like in this lab case [1]). So the content is closely related and I can see no good reason to break it up. —MistyMorn (talk) 21:39, 8 November 2012 (UTC)

And in fact that is precisely what has been found in a series of meta-analyses and systematic reviews. Even the ones that have found some sort of positive result have said that more good quality research is needed, and as that work has been done the evidence in fasvour of homoeopathy has got weaker, from Kleijnen (1991) which said that the evidence was positive but "not sufficient to draw definitive conclusions because most trials are of low methodological quality and because of the unknown role of publication bias" and Linde (1997), which had a positive result qualified by a comment that there was "insufficient evidence from these studies that homeopathy is clearly efficacious for any single clinical condition" (and further qualified by the team's 1999 reanalysis which concluded that the 1997 paper had "at least overestimated the effects of homeopathic treatments"), to Linde (1999) and Cucherat (2000) both of which specifically found that better quality trials were more likely to be negative, through to Shang (2005). Brunton (talk) 12:20, 9 November 2012 (UTC)

"Miasms" - I'm afraid all of you are wrong there

Hahnemann neither introduced the theory, it's ancient (old greece ancient), nor did he come up with the idea that miasms were the cause of most illness - this was common thinking in his days! --Six words (talk) 20:12, 17 November 2012 (UTC)

I just had a look at the source for the sentence in question - it deals with chronic disease, which Hahnemann theorises is caused by "underlying ills", syphillis, sycosis and scabies. These at his time were thought to be caused by miasm. At the beginning of the book, he describes these three diseases as "miasmatic-chronic" and/or "chronic-miasmatic". Later in the book, the diseases themselves are called "miasms", so he's taking an (at his time) accepted concept and slightly re-defines it to primarily mean these three diseases. I think for now it might suffice to change the section title and the first sentence to read

Miasm and chronic disease
In 1828, Hahnemann introduced the concept of "miasms" as the supposed underlying cause of chronic diseases.[30]

but I'll try to find a source that discusses that miasm was a common concept back then. --Six words (talk) 20:55, 17 November 2012 (UTC)

What about: "Hahnemann proposed that "miasms" were the supposed underlying cause of chronic diseases. The "concept" part is redundant, actually, because "miasms" is defined in the next sentence. Dominus Vobisdu (talk) 21:05, 17 November 2012 (UTC)

I guess this is a bit more complicated than I at first thought. The next sentence doesn't really define "miasm" - it describes the homeopathic theory (or definition?) of disease. "Miasm" (used the way Hahnemann seems to define it - as syphillis, sycosis or psora/scabies) is a theoretical explanation for why chronic diseases re-appear or don't respond even though they're treated with a matching "simillimum" - if the disease is caused by a different underlying disease, it won't be healed even though you use the "right" "remedy". We should try to find a secondary source for the definition of "miasm", right now this section isn't sourced very well. --Six words (talk) 21:54, 17 November 2012 (UTC)

Aren't the references at Miasma theory sufficient?

Anyway, Hahnemann used the concept in a different way than they had previously been used - see his book "The Chrinic Diseases" Whilst acknowledging the way they can initially be contracted in a similar way to modern germ theory, he further proposed that once in the system they could be the root of all manner of symptoms - again not so different from germ theory. He didn't propose that they were the "supposed" cause, he proposed that they "were" the cause - unless you can show me differently. I think the sentence should be either left as is or: Hahnemann proposed that "miasms" were the underlying cause of chronic diseases.

When he talks of miasms in terms of them getting in the way of healing, he is referring to a condition returning after having been alleviated (also known as having been being cured), or a new condition arising after a previous one has been cured. His goal was permanent and lasting cure (see organon), so this is why he looked for other approaches. Re last para of the Miasms section, to suggest that he was using the miasms theory as being a reason for treatment failures is misrepresenting this. You could just as easily say use of anti-biotics are treatment failures because very often the same or similar or a further condition arises. That para in a very unclear way, also says Hahnemann used miasms in some way to cover the failure of homeopathy to understand "the unique disease history of each patient" - erm... a homeopath certainly looks at the unique disease history of someone more than conventional medicine does, even today. Its a very low quality reference to include in the article, and that para anyway is very vague and easily confused - needs a rewrite if it is to remain included, though not having the book I couldn't do that. I dare say its probably only a page or so (pp148-149?), so if anyone has access to it I'm happy to write a better summary of Sheltons view.

Having said this, there are criticisms of miasm theory out there from other homeopaths we can include, as well as the development of the theory. Cjwilky (talk) 23:26, 17 November 2012 (UTC)

It's not a theory. You keep using that word. I don't think it means what you think it means. SkepticalRaptor (talk) 23:28, 17 November 2012 (UTC)

Hi skeprap :) Better to follow the thread of the discussion rather than sidestepping to over analysing words. But, try looking at Theory. Maybe you are meaning a specific branch of that known as Scientific Theory, in which case if you read the Chronic Dieases book you will find that Hahnemann did take it that far.

Please refrain, if you can, from derisory comments tucked away in the edit summary when you are posting :( "here we go again. Someone needs to read WP:NOTAFORUM" Cjwilky (talk) 23:48, 17 November 2012 (UTC)

See WP:NOTAFORUM. You're using this stage as your personal "Homeopathy works" forum. You never get anywhere, because you've brought absolutely nothing to the article. OK? Your personal attacks are so lame that they're laughable. SkepticalRaptor (talk) 21:53, 18 November 2012 (UTC)

(edit conflict) Wait, now the sentence should be left as-is? It was you who tried to change it (introducing the "supposed")! My contribution to this sentence was the "chronic" part. --Six words (talk) 23:54, 17 November 2012 (UTC)

Ooops! Nope, I didn't introduce "supposed", that was Dominus, and it doesn't make sense as a sentence if thats included. Yep, got caught too much into the whole section and forgot the chronic bit, that is crucial :) Cjwilky (talk) 01:28, 18 November 2012 (UTC)

No, I didn't. Get your facts straight before you say someone did something. Dominus Vobisdu (talk) 03:09, 18 November 2012 (UTC)

You're right, but no big deal eh? :) seems it was JzG. Cjwilky (talk) 18:37, 18 November 2012 (UTC)

No, it is a big deal, because I can count on one testicle the number of times you've been right about water, and that may be that it has two hydrogens and one oxygen in the molecule. But that's real science, so I'm skeptical about homeopaths even understanding that concept. SkepticalRaptor (talk) 21:55, 18 November 2012 (UTC)

Cjwilky, you left the sentence as "In 1828, Hahnemann introduced the concept of "miasms" as the underlying cause of chronic diseases". That is misleading and/or inaccurate. He introduced miasms as the supposed cause, but they are not the cause of anything at all, because they don't exist. Guy (Help!) 15:57, 22 November 2012 (UTC)

JzG/Guy - you can read that sentence two ways. He introduced the concept of miasms as the cause of chronic diseases (that continually returned after alleviation), he didn't introduce it as a supposed cause, he was very clear that it was "the cause" . The less amiguous version of this sentence would be "In 1828, Hahnemann introduced the concept of "miasms" as being what he saw as the underlying cause of chronic diseases."

Whilst I'd be happy to debate whether miasms exist or not, I don't think our take on them is relevant here. We are describing the philosophy and theory of homeopathy. Cjwilky (talk) 19:09, 24 November 2012 (UTC)

Alternative medicine article discussion to restore MEDRS and NPOV content and sources such as Annals of New York Academy of Sciences and Journal of Academic Medicine

A discussion to restore the first 14 sources of this version, including Annals of New York Academy of Sciences, Journal of Academic Medicine, etc., to the Alternative medicine article is now going on here. ParkSehJik (talk) 02:57, 22 November 2012 (UTC)

"the"/"his" doctrine of similia similibus curentur

I see in the first sentence of the article "the" has been changed to "his" with the edit note of "his doctrine, not a doctrine (it was more or less non-existent by then)". I don't get the reasoning here. It is a doctrine that has been in existence before Hahnemann eg Similia_similibus_curentur#similia_similibus_curentur. As such its clearly not Hahnemanns doctrine, so seems to me "the doctrine...." is the accurate term and should be used here in the article. Cjwilky (talk) 19:36, 24 November 2012 (UTC)

Paracelsus laid the foundations with his "like cures like", but Hahnemann elevated this far-from-true idea to a pseudo-"law", even though it has no scientific basis. It is therefore "his" doctrine, which his followers believe, but which no one else recognizes: "Hahnemann's law of similars is an ipse dixit axiom, in other words an unproven assertion made by Hahnemann, and not a true law of nature." -- Brangifer (talk) 06:36, 30 November 2012 (UTC)

Adverse effects

Here's a systematic review that meets MEDRS:

• Adverse effects of homeopathy: a systematic review of published case reports and case series. P. Posadzki, A. Alotaibi, E. Ernst. International Journal of Clinical Practice, Volume 66, Issue 12, pages 1178–1188, December 2012. DOI: 10.1111/ijcp.12026

Brangifer (talk) 03:20, 30 November 2012 (UTC)

Despite the suspect nature of the author, Ernst, I agree with it being included, though only if its made clear that these are all cases where a material dose of the material suspected of causing the allergy/adverse reaction is used. I note that since 1978 30 cases have been found worldwide - perspective of this kind is relevant to the article - I'd say the same if we were talking about pharma med reactions, otherwise we are in danger of misleading. It would make sense to give examples of the potencies and substances concerned. Cjwilky (talk) 22:07, 2 December 2012 (UTC)

"homeopathy" or "homeopathic remedies"?

In this http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Homeopathy&diff=525999753&oldid=525973492 edit, skinwalker changed deleted some "citations needed" but also changed

Johnson was unable to find any evidence that homeopathic remedies contain any active ingredient.

to

Johnson was unable to find any evidence that homeopathy contains any active ingredient.

I suggest this is changed back.

I reverted it. Skeprap reverted it back to skinwalkers edit. I reverted this again and requested it be brought to talk if anyone had an issue. Skeprap reverted it again without saying why. I had corrected it again. I say corrected as explained in my edit notes ie that it makes no sense as homeopathy is a described process not a substance. Further, the youtube video cited claims:

"remedies contain well... nothing"

"common remedies are just sugar pills"

"even critics say this part of homeopathy (the consultation) may have some value, spending time with a patient, as for the remedies..."

"there's nothing to these homeopathic medicines"

"homeopathic medicines are sugar pills"

"there is no medicine in homeopathic medicine"

"the remedies largely have no active ingredient"

"when you get the remedies there's no active ingredient in there"

etc.

As you see, nothing whatsoever about "homeopathy contains no active ingredient", only that "remedies contain no active ingredient", and it does say "...this part of homeopathy (the consultation) may have some value". Seems that there's some inaccurate reporting going on by sceptics here. Skinwalker? Skeprap? Cjwilky (talk) 21:47, 2 December 2012 (UTC)

Calling these "remedies" is a bit stupid, since they don't do anything. (Military music, anyone?) But that's what the source calls them and I don't have a better name for it. Replacing "remedies" with something else throughout the article would be ideal. "substances" perhaps? TippyGoomba (talk) 22:08, 2 December 2012 (UTC)

And Cjwilky has a hissy fit when I do this by make some lame accusation about something regarding me. I'd be ok with "substances" or "potions." SkepticalRaptor (talk) 23:00, 2 December 2012 (UTC)

"Potions" is a good one. But more seriously, what about "preparations"? I agree that remedies makes it sound as if they actually are effective in some way, and should be avoided. Dominus Vobisdu (talk) 23:13, 2 December 2012 (UTC)

The problem is that "Johnson was unable to find any evidence that homeopathy contains any active ingredient" simply doesn't make sense: theology doesn't contain Gods, geography geology doesn't contain rocks, and homoeopathy doesn't contain remedies. "Preparations" sounds good though... AndyTheGrump (talk) 23:45, 2 December 2012 (UTC)

Oh, come on, let's use potions! But if that's just a bit POV, preparations sounds great. Good one Andy! SkepticalRaptor (talk) 03:33, 3 December 2012 (UTC)

Or "nostrums"! Or just plain "water"! But preparations seems the most realistic here. Dominus Vobisdu (talk) 03:43, 3 December 2012 (UTC)

I'd suggest that 'preparations' is precisely the term needed, in that homoeopathic practitioners seem to insist that how the substance is prepared is what matters, whereas both orthodox science and common sense will hold that 'preparing' something this way has no significant consequence beyond increasing the price of the 'active' ingredient - water. Both agree that 'preparation' occurs - the debate is over its effectiveness. AndyTheGrump (talk) 03:58, 3 December 2012 (UTC)

'Homeopathic preparations' works for me, I also wouldn't mind calling it 'homeopathic products'. --Six words (talk) 10:17, 3 December 2012 (UTC)

I'll go with "preparations" here too, although the source does say remedies and medicines repeatedly and never mentions preparations. In the past we have had similar discussions about words used and it has been said "thats what the source says", as though thats a definitive judgement, so useful to know thats definitely not the case in all your judgements. Cjwilky (talk) 13:39, 3 December 2012 (UTC)

Is there a homeopathic potion that you can concoct for passive aggressiveness? Damn, I'm funny. SkepticalRaptor (talk) 04:28, 8 December 2012 (UTC)

'Quackery' in lead'

Shivang Tyagi (talk) 21:22, 7 December 2012 (UTC) on 8th Dec 2012 i Tried To Remove The Line Stating Homeopathy As Quackery For All Those Favouring It : Its Accepted Form Of Alternate Medication In Many Countries Including India. Plese Go Through These Articles First.. We Should Not State Something As Quackery Without Knowing Its Basics. Some Articles May Help Gaining Some Positive Attitude :

• understand-the-molecular-processes-involved-in-potentization
• homeopathic-potentization
• how-homeopathy-works
• 'Molecular Imprints' Vs 'Bio-magnetic' - John Benneth Debates With Chandran Nambiar K C Over Sicence Of Homeopathy

Please read Wikipedia:Identifying reliable sources, and in particular, Wikipedia:Identifying reliable sources (medicine). We will not accept a website run by a homoeopathic practitioner (e.g. as a source such as dialecticalhomeopathy.com) for anything except the practitioner's own opinions - if they are of any note, for which there seems to be no real evidence. That homaeopaths claim not to be promoting quackery is hardly surprising. And we are well aware that in some countries, homoeopathy is promoted as 'alternative medicine' - our article says so. This does not change the fact that it is widely seen as based on unscientific and disproven premises by the medical community, and generally considered by this community to be quackery. This issue has been raised before here by supporters of homoeopathy, as a look through the archives will reveal, and it is quite evident that the article lede complies with Wikipedia policies, is properly sourced, and states the facts, as provided by the sources we recognise as valid. A few links to a random homaeopath's website aren't going to change this. AndyTheGrump (talk) 21:52, 7 December 2012 (UTC)

An Exerpt From Wikipedia:Identifying reliable sources (medicine) Clearly says that studies of experts in relevant fields should be considered. we can provide his reference in the article if it provides any direction to the article.

"Ideal sources for such content includes general or systematic reviews published in reputable medical journals, academic and professional books written by experts in the relevant field and from a respected publisher, and medical guidelines or position statements from nationally or internationally recognised expert bodies. This guideline supports the general sourcing policy at Wikipedia:Verifiability with specific attention given to sources appropriate for the medical and health-related content in any type of article, including alternative medicine. Sources for all other types of content—including all non-medical information in medicine-related articles—are covered by the general guideline on identifying reliable sources rather than this specific guideline."

"generally considered by this community to be quackery" general considerations vary from person to person and isnt a authentic measure to considered to keep a point in front on large masses. here we have a study in above mentioned articles. would soon be providing you with more in-depth studies . I AGAIN Request to go through the articles from a neutral set of mind.

Shivang Tyagi (talk) 22:29, 7 December 2012 (UTC)

It may be that on balance the evidence is currently against homeopathy, and we know most editors on here consider it quackery. However, the article says "Within the medical community homeopathy is generally considered quackery." There is one source for this, but I wonder where in that source that is said? Anyone have access to it? Having discussed this particular point with several random medics, they all raised eyebrows and said they had heard that term used rarely. Some said it was used in more extreme criticisms. There is nothing in the world I have come across that supports this claim. I'd like to see evidence for this claim. Cjwilky (talk) 22:19, 7 December 2012 (UTC)

"It may be that on balance the evidence is currently against homeopathy"? Cjwilky, you are well aware of WP:FRINGE (and WP:OR concerning your 'medics') - please take your soupbox elsewhere. AndyTheGrump (talk) 23:11, 7 December 2012 (UTC)

Consider reading this study  : http://www.thebee.se/SCIENCE/Potprobl.htm

with references of this article mentioned here : http://www.thebee.se/SCIENCE/Potref.htm Shivang Tyagi (talk) 22:48, 7 December 2012 (UTC)

No. We are not the slightest bit interested in such 'studies' - only material conforming to Wikipedia:Identifying reliable sources (medicine) can be used here - this is not open to negotiation, it is Wikipedia policy. AndyTheGrump (talk) 23:00, 7 December 2012 (UTC)

See the answer to Q11 above. Yes, it's quackery. No, we don't says so in the voice of the encyclopedia. Yes, we do report that others say so. LeadSongDog come howl! 23:08, 7 December 2012 (UTC)

The Wahlberg ref was previously used to illustrate the last part of "The lack of convincing scientific evidence to support homeopathy's efficacy and its use of remedies lacking active ingredients have caused homeopathy to be described as pseudoscience, quackery". I see BenKovitz changed the wording to its current version. Was this discussed? Where does the Wahlberg ref cite that homeopathy is generally considered quackery within the medical community? Cjwilky (talk) 01:17, 8 December 2012 (UTC)

Q11 Above As Mentioned Demands Reliable Authentic Proof To Say It As Fraud/Quackery. Just On The Basis Of Ones Own Perception You Cant Claim The Whole Millions Of Homeopathic Doctors And The Branch As Of Quacks Without Actually Prooving Them So. You Need To Have Something To Either Proove It Wrong Or Withdrawing Such Words From Encyclopedia Used Without Neutral Consensus. Shivang Tyagi (talk) 02:25, 8 December 2012 (UTC)

Have you actually bothered to read the article? Anyway, we don't have to prove anything, beyond what we say in the article - that reliable sources state that homoeopathy has not been proven to do anything whatsoever, that its supposed mechanism is incompatible with even elementary science, and that it is widely seen as pseudoscientific hokum by the medical community. And I've no idea where you get the idea that Wikipedia decides content according to any sort of 'consensus' of the opinions of contributors. It doesn't - it represents the sources. If you wish to promote homoeopathy, you will need to find somewhere else to do so. We don't misrepresent fringe theories as factual, no matter how profitable it would be for the promoters of such theories to do so. AndyTheGrump (talk) 02:38, 8 December 2012 (UTC)

The Article You Are Constantly Mentioning Should Be Referred To Others Too.. It Clearly States About Long List Of Acceptable Sources. I Don't Know What Personally You Don't Consider Among All Those Articles Mentioned As Against The Wikipedia:Identifying reliable sources (medicine). Here's A List Of PEER REVIEWED MEDICAL LITERATURE ABOUT THE BASIS OF HOMEOPATHY, EVIDENCE BASE, ITS RECOGNITION AND RESEARCH WORKS. KINDLY GO THROUGH THEM BEFORE COMMENTING.Some Articles Sourced From Europe & USA Based HOMEOPATHY SOCIETIES And Medical Journals. :

http://www.homeopathyeurope.org/Research/basic-research/biological-models

http://www.homeopathyeurope.org/Research/basic-research

http://homeopathyusa.org/specialty-board.html

http://homeopathyusa.org/homeopathy-now.html

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1475491607001051

http://homeopathyusa.org/faq.html (SOME GENERAL QUESTIONS ANSWERED)

http://www.fda.gov/ICECI/ComplianceManuals/CompliancePolicyGuidanceManual/ucm074360.htm (FDA Compliance )

http://www.homeopathyeurope.org/regulatory-status (REGULATORY STATUS EUROPE)

http://www.homeowatch.org/history/reghx.html

By the Way FOR CONSENSUS Topic : WIKIPEDIA SAYS TO EDITORS (Below FAQs 2 column ) "There have been attempts to recruit editors of specific viewpoints to this article. If you've come here in response to such recruitment, please review the relevant Wikipedia policy on recruitment of editors, as well as the neutral point of view policy. Disputes on Wikipedia are resolved by consensus, not by majority vote." Shivang Tyagi (talk) 03:09, 8 December 2012 (UTC)

Yes ShivangTyagi I think you are confused. There is no vote going on right now. Did you read the FRINGE link that AndytheGrump left you? We are not going to go through your long list of article from homeopaths. I did glance through one (http://www.homeopathyeurope.org/regulatory-status) and it is VERY outdated, it seems to just be a generic reference page that is unsourced and not reputable. I do not see what it has to do with your claim that the lede should be changed?Sgerbic (talk) 03:23, 8 December 2012 (UTC)

Not one of those citations qualifies as a reliable medical source. I know that homeopaths and real scientists look at reliable sources differently, but in this article, in this project, only peer-reviewed, secondary sources, published in high impact journals count. Websites, blogs, and homeopathic potion menus don't count. If you're unwilling to read Wikipedia guidelines, there will not be a good conversation here. SkepticalRaptor (talk) 04:25, 8 December 2012 (UTC)

Yes read Q11. Still no indication where its shown that the medical community generally call homeoathy "quackery". For sure a few people use the word, but hardly "generally" unless you can show different. Shivang - don't worry, most of them are usually like this, stick with it :) They are correct in what they say about sources needing to be quality, just a shame they made leaps of judgement sometimes like in the case of "quackery" and "generally"in the lead. Cjwilky (talk) 10:38, 8 December 2012 (UTC)

I Have Read All Those Links And Standards WikiPedia Needs. The Links You COMMENTED Think Are Not Merely Websites Or General Blog Sites. They Are Country/Continent BASED NATIONAL BOARDS OF HOMEOPATHY . I Don't THINK Calling SUCH REPUTED Media As Baseless And Unreliable Accounts To Anything. HAVE A LOOK AT THEM YOU WILL FIND PEER_REVIEWED JOURNALS IN ABUNDANCE, SCIENTIFIC STUDIES AND UNIVERSALLY FOLLOWED RESEARCHES. "Its Shameful to claim something without proper references and than demanding Further Reference TO REMOVE IT." And The One Calling Europe Board As OUTDATED.. Homeopathy Isn't New So, HOW CAN YOU EXPECT ITS RECOGNITION TO BE OF RECENT YEARS??? ITS RECOGNISED DECADES BACK EVERYWHERE AND SAME IS BEING FOLLOWED UPTILL NOW .. Were You Expecting It Show You Recent Dates ?? That Gives You Dates Of Boards When They Were Formed And Accepted.

I Dont Think There's Any One MEDIC Here Who Can Actually Give ANY Proper Judgement Being Neutral. Its Of No Use To Argue With Non-Medics On Topics That They Actually Don't Understand. Shivang Tyagi (talk) 23:27, 8 December 2012 (UTC)

Propose Warning Label

Just thought that it might be a good idea to start every article such as this one with a warning label such as the one used on the Italian Wikipedia pages. It would keep the back and forth discussions over the lede to a minimum. Here is one example http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agopuntura It translates to "The practices described here are not accepted by medical science, have not been subjected to experimental tests conducted with the scientific method or have not overcome. May therefore be ineffective or harmful to health. The information for illustrative purposes only. Wikipedia does not give medical advice: Read the warnings." So clearly there is precedent on Wikipedia for this. Sgerbic (talk) 14:22, 8 December 2012 (UTC)

Um, the English Wikipedia is no obligation to follow Italian Wikipedia precedent, or vice-versa. On the whole, consensus here seems to be that such custom disclaimers are best avoided, if for no other reason than that they might be taken to imply that where an article did not have such a disclaimer, Wikipedia was claiming to be a legitimate source for medical advice etc - which could have legal implications. Note also that every Wikipedia article carries a link to the Wikipedia:General disclaimer at the bottom of the page. AndyTheGrump (talk) 14:28, 8 December 2012 (UTC)