Wikipedia:Village pump (idea lab)

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The idea lab section of the village pump is a place where new ideas or suggestions on general Wikipedia issues can be incubated, for later submission for consensus discussion at Village pump (proposals). Try to be creative and positive when commenting on ideas.
Before creating a new section, please note:

• Discussions of technical issues belong at Wikipedia:Village pump (technical).
• Discussions of policy belong at Wikipedia:Village pump (policy).
• If you're ready to make a concrete proposal and determine whether it has consensus, go to the Wikipedia:Village pump (proposals). Proposals worked out here can be brought there.

Before commenting, note:

• This page is not for consensus polling. Stalwart "Oppose" and "Support" comments generally have no place here. Instead, discuss ideas and suggest variations on them.
• Wondering whether someone already had this idea? Search the archives below, and look through Wikipedia:Perennial proposals, and Wikipedia:Village pump (proposals)/Persistent proposals.

« Archives, 39, 40, 41, 42, 43, 44, 45, 46, 47, 48, 49, 50, 51, 52, 53, 54, 55, 56, 57, 58, 59

Time for a complete overhaul of Wikipedia's appearance

Wikipedia is the 7th largest site on the Internet, but it has one of the worst designs and user experiences out of the top. Isn't it time to completely revamp Wikipedia's user interface? Not only do we need to focus more on the article itself, the interface also has to be organized, clean, and modern. The editing interface needs to be cleaned up as well.

To get an idea of what I'm getting at, I did a quick sketch:

Sketch of redesigned Wikipedia

Of course, this would be a centralized MediaWiki design used across all Wikimedia projects.

Alfred Xing (talk) 03:33, 12 June 2013 (UTC)

Can you add a textual description of what we're looking at and what the various icons would do; basically how you believe everything would function and what are the key differences between your mock-up and the status quo. Is that a drawing of a main page? It includes the edit history? Regarding heavy use of icons and usability, see, for example, this. Also, citation missing for "one of the worst designs and user experiences". --82.170.113.123 (talk) 13:06, 13 June 2013 (UTC)

Great post, 82.170.113.123! Exactly my idea! Wherein lies the benefit of ditching a working, stable design, replacing it with fuzzy icons and bulky designishness for its own sake?--Paracel63 (talk) 02:14, 16 June 2013 (UTC)

Have you seen Project Athena? I think this is the redesign we are supposed to be going with. Marcus Qwertyus (talk) 13:37, 13 June 2013 (UTC)

Thanks! Is this section supposed to be deleted then? Alfred Xing (talk) 16:40, 13 June 2013 (UTC)

Hi Alfred Xing, have you read Wikipedia:Unsolicited redesigns? Lots of people have had the idea of redesigning Wikipedia, but their proposals are almost never accepted. WhatamIdoing (talk) 18:39, 13 June 2013 (UTC)

I've been editing for a few months and I just want to say I disagree with this statement that Wikipedia "has one of the worst designs and user experiences out of the top." The OP states that as if its something we will all accept. I would think someone must have done some analysis of usability testing comparing Wikipedia's usability to other top sites. Has this been done and if so what are some of the metrics? And if we don't have that information IMO a much better use of resources before starting a complete redesign is to collect them and find out what really works and doesn't based on empirical evidence rather than our intuitions. Personally I like the UI a lot as is its clean, simple, and consistent and my first rule of engineering is "if it ain't broke don't fix it". Mdebellis (talk) 20:03, 22 June 2013 (UTC)

there's been some good work done on usability, and as a result, there will be major changes very soon, with WP:VisualEditor and later WP:Flow. But the changes are really about function rather than general appearance. WhatamIdoing (talk) 22:00, 23 June 2013 (UTC)

Thanks for sharing those, they look great. I knew a bit about the visual editor but not the flow tool, that is a good idea. On the visual editor it seems just my luck now that I'm starting to feel competent in the Wiki language I won't need to use it anymore :) Mdebellis (talk) 23:23, 23 June 2013 (UTC)

It's going to be at least several months before VisualEditor is capable of doing everything, and the old system is going to be kept around for years, so your skills won't be obsolete for a long time. WhatamIdoing (talk) 06:49, 26 June 2013 (UTC)

This is a pretty awful design that would take Wikipedia back to where web design was about 1996. One of the positive things to come from the growth of SEO in the late 90s was that designers and webmasters started to get used to the idea that text links were nearly always preferable to icons. Using this design would be like taking a two-decade step backward. Andrew Lenahan - Starblind 12:16, 3 July 2013 (UTC)

• The idea is interesting and I was wondering if we could have a single good design used across all Wikimedia Projects. Some changes which will make a lot more sense will be to increase the search bar's prominence, and consider revamping the left sidebar to include tools that can be used intuitively, rather than relying on knowledge of those tools to be able to use them...

I wonder what editors from the WMF, like Okeyes (WMF) or Steven (WMF), will have to say to such a redesign? TheOriginalSoni (talk) 10:19, 6 July 2013 (UTC)

Wikipedia and Agile Software Development

I've been editing seriously for a couple months now and recently something occurred to me and i'm wondering if its occurred to anyone else and if anyone has written a paper on it. If there is such a paper I would like to read it and if there isn't I might try to write it at some point. It seems to me that editing Wikipedia is Agile software development for content rather than code. This occurred to me when someone asked me if I had any guidelines for writing a Wikipedia article and the first thing I thought of was "start with your references". And I realized that is similar to an agile programming technique, start with the test cases and then write the code. Also, the incremental way Wikipedia evolves. Rather than start with some grand design and then start farming things out with a project plan things grow organically from the ground up. And the constant evolution that an article goes through and the stereotypical kinds of changes are very similar to refactoring. I could give more examples... Anyway, interested to know what people think and if anyone has written on this topic. Mdebellis (talk) 20:13, 22 June 2013 (UTC)

The Wikipedia process isn't agile, it's chaotic! In a typical process, you set goals and rush to achieve them, then you set new goals. In Wikipedia this is much less clear, because each editor typically does whatever they wish, rather than coordinate a common task with other editors. --NaBUru38 (talk) 15:23, 24 June 2013 (UTC)

• More like ageing bureaucracy ignoring customers: When using typical Agile Software Development, the goal is to meet customer requests quickly, or at least provide rapid feedback to change course, then allow customers to follow some other path. Instead, with Wikipedia, the whole system has evolved to be more self-serving for editors, with little or no mention of the readership as being "customers" to be satisfied. In fact, when I have mentioned that articles did not display clearly for thousands of users with Internet Explorer browsers (IE7 or IE8, the world's most-popular browser in 2012), the response has often been, "Who cares?" or, "They should buy a more expensive computer browser" or such. Hence, the bureaucracy has been expanded to meet thousands of style-centric rules of the wp:MOS guidelines (over 70 pages just to name articles per wp:TITLE), and the concept of "wp:Featured Article" (FA) promotes a large mega-page format with a set of internal criteria dictated by committees of editors, rather than to answer requests by a committee (or other group) of interested readers. The wp:Articles for Creation (AfC) is an attempt to respond to reader requests, but there has been little measurement to see which articles are really wanted, or by how many anticipated readers. With the common templates controlled to deter updates, many attempts at "spike solutions" for better performance (or new features) have been resisted as so-called "fork templates" to be quickly deleted. Admins with rough attitudes, rather than burnout from continual wp:BATTLEground mentality against other editors, have remained in power for years, as part of the "imperial admin" core, ageing with the wiki-bureaucracy, rather than resigning to try other hobbies. In fact, repeated calls for "term limitations" such as the one-year admins of the Swedish Wikipedia from 2006, have been rejected by many empowered admins. Instead, WP needs to switch to a reader-focused agenda, with smaller articles to meet reader requests, and promote an agile-ruleset format which is easier to write and proofread. The admins need to be removed from power, even if for only 2 years at a time, to allow room for new admins to control the site. Otherwise, Wikipedia has expanded as guild socialism with the same entrenched groups for many years, in an ageing bureaucracy of slow improvements and general stagnation for multi-year periods. Most large changes to Wikipedia are not new features but merely reflect a reorg of the bureaucracy (such as moving interwiki links into the wp:Wikidata bureau). Overall, WP is the exact opposite of Agile, but typical of long-term, self-controlled committees who define their own meaning of "consensus" as being what they themselves dictate, rather than a broad agreement among all participants. Others can give more examples. -Wikid77 (talk) 14:28, 6 July 2013 (UTC)

{{note|...}}

Maybe {{note|...}} should display a warning if the note is not being used in the article? --82.170.113.123 (talk) 23:49, 22 June 2013 (UTC)

User:Ucucha/HarvErrors will do that for you. --  Gadget850 ^talk 20:51, 27 June 2013 (UTC)

Fourth "Get started" option - Translate

Hello, yesterday I became a member of Wikipedia. As soon as I had logged in a welcoming "Get Started-guide" greeted me with some ways I could improve Wikipedia. They were: Fix Spelling and Grammar, Add Links, and Improve Clarity. I think there should be a fourth option, I was thinking a "Translate" option would be good to have there. Maybe with some way of seeing two articles, one from each language, at the same time, to ease translating them. I was on Wikimedia just now and was asked to translate a page, with one section of the page in English and the other section with the other language, I think it worked very well. The way I understand it, articles with the spelling issues template are automatically added to the articles that appear in that guide. The same could be easily done with another template. What do you think? --Jokygabble (talk) 09:47, 25 June 2013 (UTC)

Hi, thanks for the good suggestion. I've left a note at the Editor engagement experiments project (which is organizing the WP:Getting started feature) pointing to your suggestion here, so that they can potentially give more accurate feedback.

As far as I know, the current design is kept minimal in order to avoid overwhelming new users, who come from a large variety of demographics and backgrounds. There is a more complex version of the same idea, at WP:Community portal/Opentask, with translating suggestions in the bottom-right corner. I believe new users used to be directed there (?), but the concerns of overwhelming the newcomers resulted in the new small page, with linear progression rather than an abundance of possibilities. Hope that helps. –Quiddity (talk) 16:08, 25 June 2013 (UTC)

Parental permission for under 18's to use Wikipedia

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

Parental permission for under 18's to use Wikipedia refers to my idea proposal. As we all know, Wikipedia has naughty pages such as Sex, Penis and other touchy subjects that may be harmfull to the eyes of under 18's. There should be an option under the log in section, where if you tick the under 18 box, you must get the under 18's parents to sign a form and fax it to WikiMedia, to verify the reation of a kiddy account. --Alv Ko Koöp (talk) 19:36, 27 June 2013 (UTC)

Parents should be monitoring their children's internet habits. The internet can't do it for them. Resolute 19:42, 27 June 2013 (UTC)

The internet can't do it for them, that is correct, but as Wikipedians, we must be responsible. Do YOU want to be involved in the next law suit involving Wikipedia? Do YOU want your child to type 'boobs and view it on Wikipedia? NO --Alv Ko Koöp (talk) 19:53, 27 June 2013 (UTC)

Appeal to emotion is a logical fallacy. On your first point, I invite you to show me the statue by which anyone could sue. To your second, I don't care. There are a million places where kids searching for boobs will find better content. At least here, there is a chance they might actually learn something about human anatomy. Resolute 20:38, 27 June 2013 (UTC)

How would this be enforced? --  Gadget850 ^talk 20:48, 27 June 2013 (UTC)

So basically the proposal is to deprive a significant portion of the human population - namely those in their prime learning stages of life - of this great and nearly endless learning resource, out of the fear that they might read up and see boobs and penises (penii?)... and that somehow that harms them? You do know that censorship is what places such a heavy amount of emphasis on those body parts? Also, what stops a kid from faxing it? And what lawsuit can come of seeing an image on the internet? Gah! I'm responsible for everybody's actions except my own. - Floydian ^τ _¢ 22:19, 27 June 2013 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Grassroots campaign for Wikipedia Zero to schools, teachers, administrators and communities...oh and a short film too.

Ntsika talks about what free Wikipedia means to him.

Hello everyone on English Wikipedia,

I wrote a blog post a week ago about a short film I'm making for the Wikimedia Foundation 2013 fundraiser about a class of High Schoolers in a slum in South Africa who wrote an open letter and started a Facebook page for free access to Wikipedia on their cellphones so that they can do their homework:

http://blog.wikimedia.org/2013/06/19/movement-for-free-access-to-wikipedia-south-africa/

I had started a discussion on Meta (Meta being the most appropriate place) that resulted in the following page being created for idea collaboration in the effort of the high school students (for anyone who is interested in collaborating):

http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Unlock_The_Secrets_Of_Wikipedia_Zero

I am posting here because I think that there are users of English Wikipedia who would (in all likelihood) want to be part of this effort and do not use Meta very much.

I am doing this as part of my role at the Wikimedia Foundation, please do inform me if my effort here is in any way a violation or an abuse of rules, procedures or etiquette. In such a case, I would very much appreciate it if I could be pointed in the right direction. Thank you!

Vgrigas (talk) 20:36, 28 June 2013 (UTC)

Expansion to social media

Hi! After a year of being a member I became an admin of a Facebook group Cool stuff that's on wikipedia when it had only two members. I became motivated to unite it with the real thing because it's mutually beneficial. I'm sure you'll see the obvious benefits and its overall potential without a list.

The group needs publicity and contributions in the form of interesting subjects. In the optimal situation Wikipedia would invite all its members to join the group, maybe just by copying this message their user page, and maybe even advertizing the group for a while.

When I joined the group, "wikipedia" was not capitalized and I'll keep it "uncapitalized" for its double meaning. However, I'm already thinking about using the group also as a source of funds for open source projects.

I guarantee that the group will always remain mutualistic with Wikipedia and as objective, informative and interesting as possible.

Probios (talk) 23:41, 28 June 2013 (UTC)

Edit: FB groups seem to be of very poor quality, I cannot even change the group's pic! It's better to create a new community page for this endeavor and post everything from the group in to it. So now I have a possibility to rename the page. What would be the best name in your opinion? Here's some possibilities: 1. Cool stuff that's on Wikipedia (CSTOW) 2. Objective & interesting information (OII) 3. IOI 4. IOITOW 5. IITOW 6. Cool wiki (CW) 7. Interesting stuff on Wikipedia (ISOW) 8. Interesting & intelligent information (III) 9. Intellectually intriguing information — Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.166.123.34 (talk) 02:48, 29 June 2013 (UTC)

• • It now has all of 15 members, and the content seems to consist of pretty much random links to various Wikipedia pages. I don't really see the point, and I certainly don't recommend using talk pages to advertise a Facebook group. That would be spam. Andrew Lenahan - Starblind 04:47, 2 July 2013 (UTC)

Enable two-factor authentication

Hello, Wikipedians. I'm suggesting enabling support of two-factor authentication on Wikipedia (since there is already a MediaWiki extension for this).

Although complex passwords can protect accounts from being compromised, it's still possible for the passwords be leaked. Here is a possible scenario: User:Example uses the same password for his account on Wikipedia and Site A, but Site A stores users' passwords in clear text. When Site A is compromised, User:Example's passwords leaked from its user databases can be used to log into his/her account on Wikipedia.

Two-factor authentication can be used as an additional safeguard. One of the implementations is when a user (the legitimate owner of the account or a cracker) attempts to log into an account with two-factor authencation enabled, they not only require to input their password, but also need to input a constantly-changing token generated by a token generator (e.g. their phones and array cards).^[figure]

This system makes it harder for a cracker to log in to someone else's account - he/she not only needs to know the password, but also needs to get a hold of the legitimate owner's token generator. Zhaofeng Li [talk... contribs...] 12:00, 3 July 2013 (UTC)

Is it your idea that this would be something each user could choose to do, or something that would be required, and therefore that anyone who can't afford the additional equipment isn't allowed to edit? WhatamIdoing (talk) 11:26, 4 July 2013 (UTC)

It would most definitely need to be optional. Theopolisme (talk) 13:42, 4 July 2013 (UTC)

Yes, it will be optional. Editors can choose to enable or disable this feature freely. Zhaofeng Li [talk... contribs...] 00:00, 5 July 2013 (UTC)

• I would suggest it's probably not worth putting a lot of effort into arguing for this right now. The mere fact that an extension exists does not mean that there is the infrastructure to support that extension, for example, or that it is likely to scale - the Wikimedia MediaWiki instances are a complex beastie and I've seen great proposals with strong consensus fall afoul of the difficulties that come from juggling N hundred machines with N hundred databases. According to the extension page, it's version 0.2; according to the git summary, it's receiving pretty infrequent contributions (although that could just indicate stability). I'd suggest getting a feel from the Platform developers (@Greg (WMF):) as to whether it's something the devs are interested in supporting, and whether it's even workable. Ironholds (talk) 10:51, 8 July 2013 (UTC)

Tagging wanted images and providing list to editors to fulfill requests for them

There are many articles that would be enhanced significantly with a good picture. Often the place, person, or thing that needs a good image is readily available to some editor somewhere. For example, I was recently editing an article about a hospital in Kansas. I'm sure there is an editor in Kansas that can drive down the road, snap a picture, and add it to the article. Amateur photographers would love to work on getting great images on topics that relate to their interest or to their location. The challenge is getting the ask to the people able and willing to fulfill it. I recommend that the Special pages have a link to a list or images that are wanted (similar to the Wanted files page). In addition, there should be a way to tag the request that that editors can filter for requests that can be fulfilled by them.War (talk) 23:27, 3 July 2013 (UTC)

Maybe the template could be called {{Image requested}}! ;) Seriously though, it would be interesting if someone somehow combined Category:Wikipedia requested photographs (and subcats) with Special:Nearby. Or maybe they have and I don't know it yet? Anomie⚔ 02:47, 4 July 2013 (UTC)

Ya know...every time I turn around Wikipedia has another feature I didn't know existed even after I tried looking for it. The {{Image requested}} template combined with Category:Wikipedia requested photographs is half way there. Combining this with some information on where the item can be found is exactly what I'm hoping for.War (talk) 04:14, 4 July 2013 (UTC)

Turns out what I want already exists. See the {{Image requested}} template description page. It says, in=: specifies where the photograph may best be taken, and adds the article to the appropriate location subcategory if there is also a "Wikipedians" category for the location...War (talk) 04:20, 4 July 2013 (UTC)

Community unblock decisions

I'm looking to draft a proposal to make unblocking more of a community driven process, rather than a single admin action. The idea is that while the button to perform the action is enabled for administrators, the community should make such calls. I believe it is important for the community to make such calls to prevent an accumulation of power with administrators. Some unblocks are rather straight forward, and an admin can just grant or deny the unblock. In cases of disagreement or doubt, this becomes more difficult. I'm looking to bring the outcome of a block request more in to the communities hands. For that, I'd like to create some sort of 'unblock requests for discussion'. As a rough first idea I would like to propose that when a user requests an unblock, any uninvolved Wikipedian in good standing, basically anyone who sees merit in the request could open a centralised unblock discussion, where if consensus is found to either block, or unblock, an admin will close the discussion and perform the outcome. Possible problems are trolls that abuse community resources on the one hand, and lynchmobs and general powertrippin' Wikipedians on the other. Other thinking and talking points are how we would determine consensus, and what to do in the case of no consensus. I could also see the possibility for this devolve into a 'votes to ban', which is to put it mildly not a stellar outcome, and any implementation should take care to avoid this.

If such a proposal is well received, it could also help in making sure that an indefinite block is really an indefinite block, and not a de-facto ban disguised as an indefinite block. I have always found time based blocks to be punitive in nature almost by definition - when not taking IP blocks in to account obviously. I would like some feedback on the validity of the general idea, the relation to AN(/I), additional things to watch out for, and possible ideas for implementation we could draft in to a proposal. Martijn Hoekstra (talk) 09:48, 6 July 2013 (UTC)

I don't see the problems this is supposed to resolve. We vet admins so thoroughly because we want to be able to trust their judgement, and if there is concern about an admin's decison on an unblock request there's already the possibility to debate that decision at AN and AN/I. What's the purpose of holding the discussion before the admin's decision instead of afterwards, except creating more (unnecessary) discussions? Huon (talk) 20:18, 6 July 2013 (UTC)

I perceive a (fairly large) problem with making discussing handling unblock requests an admin affair. It should be a community task, not an admin task. Right now, it is treated like an admin task, with every once in a while a massive shitstorm on AN/I that may override the block, and/or lead to emergency desysoping in the largest such storms. It is up to the community to decide if someone should be unblocked, and barring special cases, it is the communities onus to work that out. Admins are thoroughly vetted, because we need to trust they will get the power to do very much, but the mandate to do relatively little. Handling unblock requests unilaterally should not be part of that mandate. Closing community discussions and enacting the outcome should be. Martijn Hoekstra (talk) 21:47, 6 July 2013 (UTC)

• Contact neutral balanced admins instead: With more editors becoming admins, then there is a better chance, these days, to contact a level-headed, neutral admin with a balanced viewpoint. Please note that block-happy admins are a peculiar problem of the "imperial admin" concept of "lifer" admins who are not re-elected, as compared to the one-year admin term limits of the Swedish Wikipedia adopted since 2006. Normal people do not issue "indef" million-year-plus blocks (or topic-bans) and not think "how ruthlessly fascist" and vicious. Normal people would block a person for a few days and ask for reform, then perhaps a few weeks to negotiate a mutual understanding, but the whole concept of 1-month blocks, or the stuck-on-stupid indef or one-year blocks just emphasize an imperial admin class entirely out-of-touch with how to talk to normal people. I do not see the point of trying to develop a rational procedure for reforming ruthless admin behaviour, but instead, seek a level-headed admin with normal judgement. As a graduate of a prestigious university, I want to assure people how there are many astoundingly brilliant and kind people in the world, and so expect better reasoning with a wider range of educated admins. However, I would keep promoting the need for term limits of admins (perhaps 2-year reapproval), with at least a two-year desysop option, to allow other admins to gain control of WP and encourage former admins to seek an alternate hobby. There is indeed "safety in numbers" once the power structure has been defused. -Wikid77 (talk) 21:08, 6 July 2013 (UTC)
• Two things. RfA has been thoroughly hijacked to reward favorite editors instead of actually vetting potential admins to see if they are capable of using the tools correctly. Secondly, anyone can request that someone else be unblocked now, either at AN or ARB, depending on who did the block, but is very true that long term blocks are pretty counter productive. I would guess that the majority of those receiving long term blocks (present company excepted) simply resort to creating and using a different username, further angering the community. The solution is to eliminate the punitive blocks, such as the one I recently received (they are prohibited, but are quite common), and be less eager to dish out long term blocks. One thing though that is little understood is that an indef block could actually be simply a block of undetermined length, although it is commonly misinterpreted as an infinite block, especially to the recipient. It might be better if that was clarified by specifying a length, but that too would create the wrong information. The only real solution is clear blocking messages, as well as clear information on the user talk page, for example using the words "this is a block of undermined length, it is not an infinite block, and was applied so that..." Apteva (talk) 00:50, 7 July 2013 (UTC)

Education-based versions for Wikipedia articles

Wikipedia is a great tool for many levels of education, but some articles can be too "complex" for high schooler or too "simple" for college students. Wikipedia could offer multiple versions of a single article

Example:

Wikikid: A version of the article for pre school to elementary, with lots of simplified text, examples and images to help kids having a rough idea of the subject. (similar to the magic schoolbus level of information)

Wikipedia for everyone: A version for average-educated people (High schoolers to working class people), with simplified text and vulgarised concepts on an fairly accurate level (similar to a documentary)

Wikipedia plus: A version for people with a higher level of knowledge (college to Ph.D) of the subject, with accurate concepts and veracious information. To modify those article, some restrictions may be required though.

Note #1: The names for the versions are not suggestions, only examples. Note #2: In this text, The term "education" refers to knowledge of the subject of the page itself, (a Ph.D biologist should normally not modify an article on a quantum physics article)

Thank you for your attention!