Talk:RT (TV network)

International sources needed ... new section titles

I improved the section titles to conform to WP neutrality requirements ... so I think the article is good in that regard. I did not change any content. The big remaining problem with this article is that it reads like a long list of criticisms by Western sources. Although those are valid and belong in the article, RT is a global network, so reviews/assessments from around the world are needed to round out the article and make it encyclopedic. Maybe inquiries could be made at other WPs for input ... e.g. to get translations of their RT articles & sources. --Noleander (talk) 15:57, 1 November 2012 (UTC)

I agree on foreign sources. Just haven't found too many. Hmmm, I guess we could look up articles on RT in foreign language Wikis and then translate and see what info by what WP:RS seems good :-) CarolMooreDC 16:05, 1 November 2012 (UTC)

Yes, I've done that a couple of times with foreign WPs ... although strictly speaking, the editor adding material must read the sources themselves (see WP:SAYWHEREYOUGOTIT). Also, foreign WPs are not valid sources. There was a debate I saw once about whether it was legitimate to copy & translate material from foreign WPs, but I don't think there was a conclusive Yes or Not that it is permitted. --Noleander (talk) 16:12, 1 November 2012 (UTC)

It seems to me it's grown more acceptable last couple years, probably because of google translate. But it shouldn't be in an article unless there is such a translation. CarolMooreDC 18:27, 1 November 2012 (UTC)

Ok, I used some of your section titles and put "expansion" note where new info is needed in my revert to the October 12 version and good changes to that version. I actually HAVE some of that info spread out over several "add" files which have to put together, plus do some more research since accidentally deleted a whole file of new add material. If at first you don't succeed... CarolMooreDC 18:05, 2 November 2012 (UTC)

"Notable guests" section discussion

I put back the big list with a "discuss note" so here's the discussion:

• Title: I can't remember why Festermunk was against "Notable" since all the guests I listed ARE notable enough to have Wikipedia articles. So if someone has an opinion on removing it, do tell.
• About four are mentioned by WP:RS (underlined) and I've collected about 5 or 6 more not overly notable ones. However even Festermunk wasn't adverse to mentioning some of these. I guess anyone who cares can put an X on the ones who only have RT link to inteview to see which ones might be considered for the list. I'll put in my Xs as most notable/interesting.
  • Politicians (can be described by nationality or not?) British politicians Nigel FarageXx Laurence Kaye (UK Pirate Party UK) and Jeremy Corbyn; French politician Marine Le PenXx; Israeli politician Avraham BurgXx;
  • Former US government officials Henry KissingerXx, Jesse Ventura, David Stockman, Richard PerleX and Paul Craig Roberts;
  • United States Representatives Ron Paulx, Dana RohrabacherX, Walter B. Jones, Jr., Dennis Kucinich and former United States Senator Alan K. SimpsonX;
  • think tank intellectuals John Feffer (Foreign Policy in Focus) and Lawrence Korb (Center for American Progress);
  • journalists and writers Jacob Sullum, Pepe Escobar, Chris HedgesXx, Naomi WolfXx, (Danny Schechter and Glenn Greenwald I'll just mention elsewhere in article)
  • current and former professors Craig Calhoun (head of London School of Economics)Xx, Patrick Michaels , Jeff Cohen and Norman FinkelsteinXx;
  • assorted guests like former lobbyist Jack AbramoffX, investor Jim Rogers, trends forecaster Gerald Celente, Israeli military analyst Uzi Rubin and Apple Inc. co-founder Steve WozniakX.

Thoughts? CarolMooreDC 18:25, 2 November 2012 (UTC)

It looks okay: the key thing is that each guest is notable. My only comment would be that the list is a bit large ... I'm thinking 16 to 20 max, per WP:INDISCRIMINATE. Maybe move some of them into a footnote if it gets over 20? --Noleander (talk) 18:36, 2 November 2012 (UTC)

I'm paring the list down by asking people to put an "X" next to ones they like. :-) CarolMooreDC 18:49, 2 November 2012 (UTC)

OK, above put a small x for Festermunk's choices, and adding a few more ref'd ones. CarolMooreDC 00:19, 7 November 2012 (UTC)

It's too early in Am to start reverting stuff like Anon Ip's addition of Nick Griffin - with no reference. Thoughts? CarolMooreDC 16:15, 7 November 2012 (UTC)

Staff section?

What about a "Staff" section listing a few top-tier managers/executives? At least name them. I think there was a section with 3 listed in the prior version. --Noleander (talk) 18:37, 2 November 2012 (UTC)

Sorry, I should have mentioned that in the more NPOV version most of that material had been moved to the issues criticism paragraphs because what happened was seen more as an RT policy issue or incident related to a specific story. That includes the the broader RT actions on Alexei Navalny/the election/the protests issue of which the Simonyan tweets were just a small part which need a better context. (Question on that in edit/conflict putting in soon.) However, I think there are higher management issues that need to be added under the Organization section, including regarding Simonyan, and whoever else is in charge higher up in Ria Novesti. I don't know right now but have seen mentions and have to research. CarolMooreDC 18:47, 2 November 2012 (UTC)

Finally researched the info on opposition leader Navalny and the protests and see there were a couple different stories there, McFaul which seems more relevant to history since the real story is after their dust up he appeared on RT and coverage of him as a protester. Of course, the larger context of Russian paranoia about western governments organizing street protests to replace pro-Russian with pro-US leaders is not explicitly covered and maybe will throw in a sentence when I re-find relevant source. CarolMooreDC 05:52, 8 November 2012 (UTC)

RT as source about itself and news/opinion source in this article

Another editor deleted some of RT's statements about itself as self-serving (two or possibly all three "citation needed" sentences) - as opposed to, say its claims about viewership. Because of the intervening contretempts I never got around to discussing this, or the fact I doubt they'd lie about these things. Any thoughts?

Also I know there is at least one, probably more, RT Opinions and/or article about the Alexei Navalny issue that is relevant to putting in a paragraph on him and the protests and Simonyan's tweets. As long as it is clear it's RT's news or opinion story, and it is more a response to allegations than an assertion of what is true, I don't see a problem with using that material. Thoughts? CarolMooreDC 18:50, 2 November 2012 (UTC)

Why would they not lie? or at least twist the truth, after all it's their channel. Using RT as a citation itself is problematic because it lends itself to non-neutrality.Oxr033 (talk) 15:44, 30 May 2013 (UTC)

WP:NPOV? IMHO this matter should be further discussed.   M aurice  12:31, 15 November 2013 (UTC)

You can't be serious. Given the controversy surrounding them, it is clearly a neutrality issue. What further discussion does there need to be on something so blatantly obvious?Cliveklg (talk) 10:35, 12 December 2013 (UTC)

RT funding and ownership

I have done some reading in the RT Wikipedia article in Russian regarding funding and ownership, and did some more digging. I think the intro/lead in English is still a mess and inaccurate Here is the information i managed to gather : So we have the article quoting RIA Novosti -

"RIA-Novosti said in a statement issued last month that it is "neither a sponsor nor a backer of Russia Today" and merely participated in establishing the channel as an Autonomous Non-Profit Organization, which provided for its complete legal, editorial and operational independence." http://rbth.ru/articles/2010/03/23/230310_rt.html

RIA Novosti even published an article on the inaccuracy of the Wikipedia English article here itself (good read) : http://en.rian.ru/agency_news/20120206/171179459.html

I believe that RT in Russia is officially/legally an "Autonomous Non-Profit Organisation (ANO) “TV-Novosti”" as also stated in their disclaimer http://rt.com/about/disclaimer/

A quote from a senior government official from 2005 : "Russia Today will come as an independent company, said Mikhail Seslavinsky, in charge of the Federal Agency for the Press and Mass Communications.

The federal government intends to call the State Duma, parliament's lower house, to amend the year's federal budget for Russia Today financing. The channel will be funded through the Federal Agency for the Press and Mass Communications, by grants and from advertising revenues." http://www.rianovosti.com/society/20050607/40486831.html

the above statement is connected to this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federal_budget_of_Russia

And the 3 references in RT Russian Wikipedia article Do show that they are (RT and RIA Novosti) 2 separate entities having 2 separate budgets : http://translate.google.com/translate?sl=auto&tl=en&js=n&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&layout=2&eotf=1&u=lenta.ru%2Fnews%2F2010%2F08%2F06%2Fsmi%2F&safe=off

http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&ie=UTF8&prev=_t&sl=auto&tl=en&u=http://www.ng.ru/politics/2006-09-05/1_svobodaslova.html#submit&safe=off

http://translate.google.com/translate?sl=auto&tl=en&js=n&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&layout=2&eotf=1&u=www.infox.ru%2Fbusiness%2Fmedia%2F2009%2F01%2F21%2FRussia_Today_ekonomi.phtml&safe=off79.181.8.18 (talk) 03:51, 6 November 2012 (UTC)

Alas, the Russia government and those supporting its official positions and statements are not reliable sources for anything else than what they have said, not that what they have said is accurate. When independent authoritative sources indicate RT is genuinely independent of its origins within the Putin cadre with the specific mission to improve Russia's image and promulgate the Russian view of the world--and no longer has those as objectives in any way shape manner or form--we can reflect that. VєсrumЬа ►TALK 04:38, 6 November 2012 (UTC)

I suggest when you have a few spare moments you watch it. The news programming is the same as BBC, CNN. Fox, etc. You seem to be confusing news coverage with editorializing. We continually certify Fox News and MSNBC as reliable despite the polemical nature of some of their talk show hosts. (Do you remember Glenn Beck talking about the Founding Fathers and Christianity? Not mainstream, but his show is not news programming.) TFD (talk) 05:00, 6 November 2012 (UTC)

I suggest you watch it more closely. Blanket support of Putin and his policies, excuses for him. Complete and utter blanket bias to any criticism for Putin or the current Regime. Blanket anti-americanism (this coming from one very critical of the U.S. government) It is a pure propaganda organization. I have to wonder at the neutrality of anyone who would claim it is just like the BBC or CNN. Fox certainly as Fox is a pure bs propaganda news organization also, or anyone claiming they are a credible journalistic organization.Cliveklg (talk) 10:43, 12 December 2013 (UTC)

I don't see a problem with adding what Russian govt sources say, as long as you identify them that way. Though I think we have more than enough on that topic in the lead; put it in organization/budget. Do articles name anyone as being above Simonyan? A normal nonprofit would or she would have some other title, as does the head of Ria Novosti. I do have more neutral and positive "reception" material to put in, if I don't get too sidetracked tonight by other articles and - external events. ha ha ha. CarolMooreDC 00:16, 7 November 2012 (UTC)

Doing some detective work with Google translator in Russian , I found Margarita Simonyan's boss. Basically RT channel is owned by (ANO) TV-Novosti. "ANO" is a legal definition in Russia "Autonomous non-profit organization" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nonprofit_organization#Russia

The General director (highest executive position in a company, analogous to a U.S CEO) of ANO TV-Novosti is Mr. Sergey Frolov. from the Federal Agency on Press and Mass Communications of the Russian Federation own website : http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=ru&u=http://www.fapmc.ru/rospechat/newsandevents/media/2007/08/item3356.html&prev=/search%3Fq%3D%2522%25D0%25A1%25D0%25B5%25D1%2580%25D0%25B3%25D0%25B5%25D0%25B9%2B%25D0%25A4%25D1%2580%25D0%25BE%25D0%25BB%25D0%25BE%25D0%25B2%2522%2B%2522%25D0%25A0%25D0%2598%25D0%2590-%25D0%259D%25D0%25BE%25D0%25B2%25D0%25BE%25D1%2581%25D1%2582%25D0%25B8%2522%26hl%3Den%26safe%3Doff%26tbo%3Dd%26sout%3D1%26biw%3D1061%26bih%3D541&sa=X&ei=7nKdUJ3kL8SF4AS53YGIBA&ved=0CGsQ7gEwCA&

http://translate.google.com/translate?sl=auto&tl=en&js=n&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&layout=2&eotf=1&u=www.broadcasting.ru%2Farticles2%2Fallauthors%2F8%2F&safe=off

Interview with him : http://translate.googleusercontent.com/translate_c?depth=1&hl=en&ie=UTF8&prev=_t&rurl=translate.google.com&sl=auto&tl=en&u=http://www.broadcasting.ru/newstext.php%3Fnews_id%3D25223&usg=ALkJrhh69ime8pXTdvKr8M9_bMuqB4SwVw

I even found the Deputy Director-General , Mrs. Elena Sokolova http://translate.googleusercontent.com/translate_c?depth=1&hl=en&ie=UTF8&prev=_t&rurl=translate.google.com&sl=auto&tl=en&u=http://sokolova-dev-tsukanova.moikrug.ru/%3Fnocookiesupport%3Dyes&usg=ALkJrhiH4MSGNLh9PqEU95fERT6dKyM3oA79.183.1.105 (talk) 18:06, 9 November 2012 (UTC)

Sorry, forgot to even look at this stuff for useful material. Will remind myself in my "ADD" wordperfect file. CarolMooreDC 22:47, 9 November 2012 (UTC)

Don't edit war? (Guests continued)

Thanks for the advice, I suppose, if that's what it was, Carolmooredc. A list of notable guests invited on a network, even if reliably sourced, is in no way encyclopedic. Do you care to add such a list to the BBC article? or even Newsnight? Or Late Show with David Letterman? Come on. It reads like resume padding. Drmies (talk) 05:41, 8 November 2012 (UTC)

First, there is a "Notable guests" section discussion above, thus I've added that topic here. Feel free to move this up as a subsection.

If I revert you and you revert me without discussing. we start getting into edit war. we've had a lot of that lately here.

Anyway, the section was started in part because an editor added SO MUCH negative material there needed some balance. The article is better now. Another place to mention guests would be in the programming section as a counter to the harsh criticism of past guests. In the interest of NPOV, a little bit of primary source referencing - in addition to secondary source mentions - isn't really a violation, if editors are working to make a good and fair article. Also note I've seen a couple "list" articles that actually list all the guests on TV shows, so it's not that totally out of line. CarolMooreDC 06:02, 8 November 2012 (UTC)

But primary source referencing on a tenuous section in an already disputed article is a really bad idea: it sounds like we're inventing something positive, disregarding good editorial practice, in the interest of presenting a balanced article where, for all I know, balance may not even exist. Drmies (talk) 14:56, 8 November 2012 (UTC)

First, the discussion of the kind of guests who appear is relevant under programming and mention of guests who are described by secondary sources really should not be a problem. So far three editors feel a limited listing of guests with RT links is ok and thus I've been paring it down. If you put this section up with previous guest discussions, it might help.

Moving it all to being a reply to criticism would not be called for, though I may have another source to counter the early complaints about guests. CarolMooreDC 16:37, 8 November 2012 (UTC)

WP:Undue McFaul detail additions

Re: This diff: First, this is a minor incident only notable because it got an Ambassador on the air; and not really much of a controversy or criticism. My one sentence "In early 2012 Michael McFaul, the newly appointed US ambassador to Russia, rejected Margaret Simonyan’s tweeted charge that the United States government had paid for opposition leader Alexei Navalny’s 2010 Yale World Fellows Program semester." is more than enough info for this article and the rest is WP:Undue silliness, in my opinion.

Plus, I find it rather odd that an AnonIP from Bezquez Intnl has added all that negative and even silly detail to the McFaul incident, when AnonIPs from Bezquez usually would add positive info. It was another (twice blocked) editor who always wanted to added the full quotes of the tweet exchange, so I have to wonder who is behind that edit. Does it rise to the level of asking for a sock puppet check? Or did that previous editor just forget to sign in? CarolMooreDC 16:50, 8 November 2012 (UTC)

Yes it was me Carol. BTW Simonyan did not tweet anything. I think now the story is more clear.109.67.33.28 (talk) 19:13, 8 November 2012 (UTC)

FYI, it is a violation of WP:Sock puppetry to edit with both a user name and a registered name and can result in another block for you. I would sign your name to both messages asap.

I'll check and see if I misunderstood the mode of her comment to him later since busy now; but the detail is unnecessary and WP:Undue. CarolMooreDC 19:19, 8 November 2012 (UTC)

Carol I'm not Festermunk, I'm the Annoymous guy who was fighting with Festermonk a month ago109.67.33.28 (talk) 19:31, 8 November 2012 (UTC)

OK, I should have said Festermunk (but didn't want to beat a hopefully dead horse) to clarify but I forgot AnonIps also blocked. Anyway, I'm a little burned out on this right now, but my WP:Undue length of content comments stand. Will propose something else later. CarolMooreDC 19:40, 8 November 2012 (UTC)

OK, here's a short version that makes the story clear but removes unnecessary detail they can get at the links if they really want it. It incorporates your edifying link to Panarin article - and I leave in all your refs:

In early 2012 Shortly after his appointment as the United States Ambassador to Russia, Michael McFaul challenged Margarita Simonyan over Twitter in regards to allegations from RT that he sent Alexei Navalny to study at Yale. McFaul was found to be referring to comment in an article by political scientist Igor Panarin which RT had specified were the views of the author. Ambassador McFaul then accepted an interview by Sophie Shevardnadze on RT on this and other issues and reasserted that the Obama administration wanted a "reset" in relations with Russia.

Hopefully acceptable? CarolMooreDC 00:00, 9 November 2012 (UTC)

Acceptable79.180.0.84 (talk) 00:45, 9 November 2012 (UTC)

Reception section

The entire section looks like cheerleading for RT, especially the lede paragraph. I've have placed in a POV tag for now on the section and reported the user who has been making these changes to the ANI, although all other third-party observers are welcomed to comment on the ANI. Festermunk (talk) 17:46, 8 November 2012 (UTC)

My reply here. Meanwhile, I think it can be hard to separate neutral and positive reception from criticisms (and whatever one can find that WP:RS actual call "controversies"). I actually wouldn't have a problem with calling the section "Reception and criticism." The paragraph on criticism of the criticism could go under objectivity, but it really does introduce some of the more strident criticisms. Rational good faith discussion can sort it all out. CarolMooreDC 19:50, 8 November 2012 (UTC)

You've still yet to answer my questions, why did you: (i) remove content for which there was consensus and (ii) why have you not reinstated them. Simple questions, simple answers. Festermunk (talk) 22:39, 8 November 2012 (UTC)

You WP:ANI was closed as a content dispute. I countered your fantasized claim that there was any consensus (except on one reliable source) at Dispute Resolution at this diff. You still retain your aggressive stance of pulling out every stop to make this an attack article instead of working with others to make it a balanced article. Why not see if any other editors chime in here? CarolMooreDC 23:30, 8 November 2012 (UTC)

Don't have a clue what you are talking about, I wasn't talking about consensus for the RT section I was talking about consensus for specific points in the RT section. In any case, then by your admission via your link, I can re-add the Marcin, Heyman and Simonyan paragraph (The simonyan paragraph I'll put under the staffing section, barring further discussion on that) However, that still leaves your baffling edit for the Assange paragraph as there was consensus that the Assange program shouldn't be in the history but rather programming section.

In addition to all that, you've yet to explain why you removed all the extra sourced information I put but then added extra sourced information of your own, especially for the reception section. Why is that? Festermunk (talk) 00:57, 9 November 2012 (UTC)

n this talk page we try to get input from a number of people. This isn't just you and me and our past conversations which obviously we both can't even keep straight. If the issue is covered in a section above, why not continue the discussion there? If it's a new one, explain here or in a new section. I'll put something in Assange right now. CarolMooreDC 00:46, 9 November 2012 (UTC)

What are you even talking about the the DNR on RT makes it clear that the Assange program should be in the programming section. That user's comment: "Does anyone object to putting the Assange/WorldTomorrow material in the Programming section? That seems like the best path. --Noleander (talk) 05:05, 30 October 2012 (UTC)" to which you never responded. As the DNR shows consensus on that, I suggest you move it to the programming section instead of leaving it in the history one. Festermunk (talk) 00:57, 9 November 2012 (UTC)

As per WP:BRD and consensus on either the relevant sub-sections on the RT talk page or through the RT section on the DNR, I am going to restore and modify all of the aforementioned text that was achieved through consensus, but overridden through the unilateral edits by the user CarolMooreDC. Specifically, I'm going to make the following changes:

1. As per the RT section on the DNR, moving the Assange paragraph from the history section to the programming section. In particular, make note of the lines by third-party observer User:Noleander: “Okay, since the program is still on the air, let's go with the Programming section rather than History section.” and “Does anyone object to putting the Assange/WorldTomorrow material in the Programming section? That seems like the best path.”

2. As per this edit by third-party observer User:Noleander, reinstating all the the properly sourced content under the criticism and controversies section in the-then current Wikipedia version of RT. In particular, note the user’s opinion that, “Although those are valid and belong in the article…” However, as per the RT section on the DNR, a resolution over the name of the headings has yet to be decided upon, so I'm going to leave the headings as shown in the current version of the Wikipedia article as they are for now

2. As the content to be hypothetically reinstated is lengthy, please note the specific issues that were disputed and subsequently resolved:

a. The Marcin Maczka material: in particular, note this sentence by User:Noleander: “Okay, it sounds like there is agreement that Marcin can be used as a source. Any other issues on this one?”

b. NY Times article by S. Heyman: In particular, note this sentence by User:Noleander: “Sure, the negative information from NY Times can be used.”

c. Section for chief editor Margarita Simonyan: In particular, I draw the administrator’s attention to this paragraph between myself, User:Carolmooredc and User:Noleander: "FM Replies 4) Perhaps something like, "RT Staff Issues"? Non-loaded terms like "Staffing" or "Personnel" or "Organization" are most encyclopedic and neutral. Adding the word "Issues" into the section title prevents the section, for example, from doing something as simple as listing the key management personnel. --Noleander (talk) 04:14, 27 October 2012 (UTC) FM Reply 4)That could work, but only if it's under the controversies and criticism section. Putting it in such a format would strike a balance between your (a neutral heading) and my (that Simonyan's occupation and occupational background is controversial) position." Note that my suggestion has yet to be disputed. - this paragraph could go under the staffing section.

An extra note, as most of these requested changes already have consensus, if I don't receive a response to the points I'm raising then as per Wikipedia:Silence and consensus, I'm going to tentatively reinstate the changes. Festermunk (talk) 01:38, 9 November 2012 (UTC)

I don't think there is consensus yet. Could you please post the proposed material here in this Talk page (or in a subpage of this Talk page) so everyone can see it? The specific issue is not so much RS but rather the WP:UNDUE policy: if too much negative material is added out of proportion to the "positive" material, that is an issue. Information, even if perfectly sourced, can be excluded from an article if it misleads the readers by giving an especially negative impression. Also, the section titles as of yesterday were very neutral and satisfactory. Can you clearly post proposed new section titles here? --Noleander (talk) 02:53, 9 November 2012 (UTC)

"Could you please post the proposed material here in this Talk page (or in a subpage of this Talk page) so everyone can see it? " I could but I'd prefer not to because the talk page (much less this section) would then become too unwieldy. Basically, what I said above which is content that you and I both agreed on, but for brevity's sake here they are in abridged form:

1) The Marcin and Heyman paragraphs which you, myself and even User CarolmooreDC says is a legitimate Wikipedia source.

2) Reinstating all the the properly sourced content under the criticism and controversies section in the-then current Wikipedia version of RT which you agreed to as "valid and belong in the article"

3) The paragraph on Simonyan.

Of course, we can debate other issues later, but these three seem to be the most important ones for me to address first. Festermunk (talk) 03:51, 9 November 2012 (UTC)

As Noleander said, except that Marcin is WP:RS, there was no consensus among the only two editors editing at the time and a volunteer dispute resolver on WP:Dispute Resolution Noticeboard. I clearly stated that in this diff], also linked above. (Do I really need to quote it here?) Plus now there are several editors getting involved and issues also should be run by then.

1) What Marcin and Heyman paragraphs where?

2) Reinstating all the WP:Undue negative criticism? That is the problem that I've been trying to correct.

3) All the Simonyan material has gone into areas more relevant to the article, except to the extent it was WP:Undue. Your preference for pushing an attack paragraph constructed to make her look really bad is a WP:NPOV and a WP:BLP violation. CarolMooreDC 04:16, 9 November 2012 (UTC)

1) It's in the DNR, I'm not going to find it for you when you can do it yourself.

2) As opposed to having the lead paragraph for the reception entirely pro-RT POV? How about I remove all that on grounds of WP:UNDUE? Actually I can't. Here's why: "The NPOV policy does forbid the inclusion of editorial bias, but does not forbid properly sourced bias." In any case, where do you get this idea that only pro-RT sources can be put into the article? I'm proposing that the content be introduced and merged alongside the pro-RT content, while you on the other hand are dedicated to removing only content that is critical of RT.

2) I should also remind you that there is already another user who has said that the content you're referring to is, "valid and belong in the article" so as of right now, the only person who is advocating that properly referenced criticism from valid sourced be removed from the article is just you.

3) No it hasn't the Simonyan material about her connections to Putin aren't in the article anywhere, and the McFaul issue she had with him is weirdly under the history section when in fact we discussed that it should be under the staffing section.

4) I forgot to put this in the original list but the Assange section is still under the history section even though DNR shows that there was consensus that it should be in the programming section. As of today, you've still yet to put the Assange program in the programming section. Festermunk (talk) 04:52, 9 November 2012 (UTC)

Festermunk: You can put the proposed material in a subpage of the talk page: that way we can see it, but it won't clog up this talk page. All you have to do is create a new WP page such as Talk:RT_(TV_network)/proposedMaterial (click on the red link) and put the text there, with citations. --Noleander (talk) 05:19, 9 November 2012 (UTC)

Done @ Talk:RT_(TV_network)/proposedMaterial. In essence, what you said was O.K. except I changed the heading and added relevant content in the current version of the RT article and merged it into the propsed material content. Festermunk (talk) 05:57, 9 November 2012 (UTC)

Noleander has a good idea. As for specific responses:

• 2-first one)OK. Since the reception subsections are all negative material followed by responses, it seemed NPOV to have the first paragraph be some neutral or positive statements. The second paragraph is below. The first sentence obviously is relevant; I really wasn't sure where to put next two sentences which seemed to support that statement:

Journalists have noted that RT has received "considerable" criticism.[89] Glenn Greenwald wrote that RT showing the Julian Assange show led to "a predictable wave of snide, smug attacks from American media figures".[46] Mark Adomanis rebuts some of the "fevered denunciations" against RT and Julian Assange in an article in Forbes.[45]

• 2-second one) Just be specific. What is the most important and different negative material that has been removed that you think must be in? Put that on another page per Noleander. Just wanting to re-add all those hostile opinions saying something already there once or twice or three times is what is WP:Undue and that's most of what you were adding after User:Ipsign reverted you after you returned from your first block.
• 3) Simonyan: I thought I had put in the flowers and more than one source about her connections in the 3rd paragraph of history, but with all the cleanup and retrieval work I had to do, evidently missed it.
• 4) I never agreed Assange belonged in programming so please stop misrepresenting me. No one else supported your cutting it out of history, in the discussion section above. That is because WP:RS worldwide covered Assange program and especially the Hezbollah leader "scoop". CarolMooreDC 05:29, 9 November 2012 (UTC)

2) "Since the reception subsections are all negative material followed by responses, it seemed NPOV to have the first paragraph be some neutral or positive statements. " What kind of logic is that?

2) As opposed to having the lead paragraph for the reception entirely pro-RT POV? How about I remove all that on grounds of WP:UNDUE? Actually I can't. Here's why: "The NPOV policy does forbid the inclusion of editorial bias, but does not forbid properly sourced bias." In any case, where do you get this idea that only pro-RT sources can be put into the article? I'm proposing that the content be introduced and merged alongside the pro-RT content, while you on the other hand are dedicated to removing only content that is critical of RT.

2) I should also remind you that there is already another user who has said that the content you're referring to is, "valid and belong in the article" so as of right now, the only person who is advocating that properly referenced criticism from valid sourced be removed from the article is just you.

3) But it doesn't go in the history, it should go in a section called 'RT Staff' or 'Staff' as we discussed at DNR.

4) Doesn't mattered whether you agreed or not because we've already discussed this at DNR. I can't help you if you think "noe on else supported your cutting it out of history" when Nolelander clearly says that he thinks the the Assange section should be in the programming section as he says at the DNR. If you don't move it to that section, I will. Festermunk (talk) 05:53, 9 November 2012 (UTC)

Festermunk: Your tone is becoming very belligerent again. Please be calm and respectful, otherwise you will get reported for Edit Warring again. My statements made in the DRN case were made based on the prior outline of the article. The new outline is much improved, and that change impacts the assessments I made beforehand. Regarding Assange: I made it clear in the DRN case that either location was fine - it is not a big deal. The article has many more important areas that need improvement. --Noleander (talk) 06:00, 9 November 2012 (UTC)

I am calm and respectful, where do you get the idea that I'm not? I understand that in the DRN you said basically that it was a coin-toss, but when I pressed you further on it you said that it should be in the programming section as the program is still on air, in fact you even said that it was the best path if the program was put in the programming section. Your exact wording: "Does anyone object to putting the Assange/WorldTomorrow material in the Programming section? That seems like the best path. --Noleander (talk) 05:05, 30 October 2012 (UTC)" Festermunk (talk) 06:09, 9 November 2012 (UTC)

The concern about your behavior stems from your 3 recent reverts (immediately after returning from a 1 week block) plus comments like "If you don't move it to that section, I will." Regarding Assange: I still consider it a coin toss, and we really need to be focusing on the quality of the article and the overall balance. Insisting on moving a paragraph from one section to another equally good section is not a good use of time. --Noleander (talk) 06:27, 9 November 2012 (UTC)

I don't have an idea why you keep going on about my "behavior" I am calm and respectful. I understand we need to be focusing on improving the balance of the article...which is why we're dealing with the Assange program issue. It's unclear how you say that you still consider it a coin toss when you wrote this in the DRN ( Your exact wording: "Does anyone object to putting the Assange/WorldTomorrow material in the Programming section? That seems like the best path. --Noleander (talk) 05:05, 30 October 2012 (UTC)"). You say that it's because of the change in outline, but that is confusing as the outline for the article is still the same as it was when we initiated the DNR. Perhaps you can elaborate further.

2) If you want to be logical, please reply to what editors actually wrote. AGAIN: Re first sentence of Reception lead, Positive comments do NOT just come as a reaction to negative ones. That is the simple logic. Or we could just make a separate section on positive comments then? Obviously sentence about their being criticism is relevant; where to put two replies is up for discussion. As for the rest, the DNR is old history now, and it was just you and me - and a volunteer dispute resolver who has now decided to become an editor of this page. There are other editors here though I can certainly understand why with your aggressive and hostile attitude they might want to avoid interacting with you. That is the way you disrupt collaboration on a page. CarolMooreDC 17:59, 9 November 2012 (UTC)

Proposed material page

In addition to this, I would also like to remind you that I'm still waiting for your feedback on the changes I've made at Talk:RT_(TV_network)/proposedMaterial. Festermunk (talk) 14:19, 9 November 2012 (UTC)

Could you update that talk subpage and indicate what parts you are proposing to add. It is a bit confusing: some of the text is boldface ... is that all you want to add? Other paragraphs (not bold) are already in the the article. Note that starting a paragraph with a few bold faced words (as in Libya) is discouraged by the WP manual of style. --Noleander (talk) 14:38, 9 November 2012 (UTC)

"some of the text is boldface ... is that all you want to add?" That's right so for brevity's sake I won't indicate what parts I'm going to add. Somehow when I wrote that what I would merge the relevant content in the current version into the proposed version of the reception section would be bolded, it didn't come up on Wikipedia, so the confusion was probably due to a technical error? In any case, yes the boldface text is what I want. As for your concern about the bold faced words, that's just a stylistic issue I'll change that when we reach a consensus on the content. Festermunk (talk) 15:26, 9 November 2012 (UTC)

An addendum to my last post: "Other paragraphs (not bold) are already in the the article." Alright, I see what you mean, the bolded paragraphs denote the paragraphs that I would merge from other sections of the paragraph. In that case, I'll put in italics the information I'd like to see added in. Festermunk (talk) 15:31, 9 November 2012 (UTC)

• As you will see some of the things you are complaining about WERE taken from your version and put in current version of article. Did you ever read it? Also criticisms should be in somewhat dated order since first couple years it was more amateurish and had more questionable guests than more recently. I do have one ref to that effect haven't put in yet; and I'm sure I've seen others I'll keep eyes open for.
• A separate section for RT Staff...this was agreed upon in DRN. Untrue. You don't want to hear what others say
• Margarita Simonyan - she acknowledged that she once received flowers on her birthday from Mr. Putin.[6] I already said YES. Everything else is redundant or trivial.
• Peter Lavelle - September 11 attacks. Trivial example as part of your attack article mindset
• "peddling the softer side" of former Soviet Dictator Joseph Stalin, - there is one negative opinion I believe, if there were two, a third more neutral one would have to be added for balance, and I have one. Is it worth all those sentences?
• Later critical opinions on RT have included:" First separate propaganda and anti-American criticisms are already in separate paragraphs. What do each of these add that is NOT already in there? Putting in every single quote you can find that is some shade of the same criticism is just WP:Undue POV attack behavior.
• Marcin Mączka writes' etc. Most of that in there now. Adding more becomes WP:Undue
• , the "brainchild of former Information Minister Mikhail Lesin and Putin's press spokesman, Aleksei Gromov" Is in there now. Have you bothered to read the newest version?? Rest is repetition of points already in there. If you think any sentence makes a BETTER case than one in there already on the topic AND comes from a more reliable news source, instead of just some opinionator spewing distain, replace it.
• quoted journailst Ed Lucas as saying that the core of RT was, "anti-Westernism."[29] Isn't there a paragraph already on that? I don't have a problem with adding it since it's funny to see someone on Al Jazeera saying that.
• Alyona Show could use mentioning; rest is just piling on WP:Undue
• Evgeny Morozov pointing out Point already made...just piling on WP:Undue

So that's my view, as I've stated repeatedly. CarolMooreDC 18:24, 9 November 2012 (UTC)

• A separate section for RT Staff...this was agreed upon in DRN. Untrue. You don't want to hear what others say

Then prove that I am wrong.

• Margarita Simonyan - she acknowledged that she once received flowers on her birthday from Mr. Putin.[6] I already said YES. Everything else is redundant or trivial.

But it's not in the right section, it should be under the staff section as we discussed on DRN. Also, you're missing the extra citations that further document her closeness to the Kremlin. This edit by User Nolelander: The Staffing section should certainly contain a paragraph on the chief editor. Right now, there is no section called, 'Staff' and the paragraph on Simonyan isn't in there.

• Peter Lavelle - September 11 attacks. Trivial example as part of your attack article mindset

Like your edit here quoting a statement by Tracy Quan, that "RT is a far more interesting network than some care to admit" in the lead paragraph of the reception section?

• "peddling the softer side" of former Soviet Dictator Joseph Stalin, - there is one negative opinion I believe, if there were two, a third more neutral one would have to be added for balance, and I have one. Is it worth all those sentences?

Like your edit here quoting a statement by Tracy Quan, that "RT is a far more interesting network than some care to admit" in the lead paragraph of the reception section?

• Later critical opinions on RT have included:" First separate propaganda and anti-American criticisms are already in separate paragraphs. What do each of these add that is NOT already in there? Putting in every single quote you can find that is some shade of the same criticism is just WP:Undue POV attack behavior.

Because they aren't in there. Where are they?

"Putting in every single quote you can..." Like your edit here quoting a statement by Tracy Quan, that "RT is a far more interesting network than some care to admit"?

• Marcin Mączka writes' etc. Most of that in there now. Adding more becomes WP:Undue

The original paragraph ("it is usually related to the progress of Russia’s “modernisation”, economic achievements and the growth of foreign investment" and, "embarrassing information about Russia is usually omitted and RT never broadcasts programmes showing Russia’s social problems, condemning corruption or administrative incompetence."), which was said to be O.K. on the DNR. Also, it's not in the receptions (then criticisms and controversies) section where we decided on the DRN where it could be

• , the "brainchild of former Information Minister Mikhail Lesin and Putin's press spokesman, Aleksei Gromov" Is in there now. Have you bothered to read the newest version?? Rest is repetition of points already in there. If you think any sentence makes a BETTER case than one in there already on the topic AND comes from a more reliable news source, instead of just some opinionator spewing distain, replace it.

But it's not in the reception section.

• quoted journailst Ed Lucas as saying that the core of RT was, "anti-Westernism."[29] Isn't there a paragraph already on that? I don't have a problem with adding it since it's funny to see someone on Al Jazeera saying that.
• Alyona Show could use mentioning; rest is just piling on WP:Undue

"rest is just piling on WP:Undue" Like your edit here quoting a statement by Tracy Quan, that "RT is a far more interesting network than some care to admit" in the lead paragraph of the reception section?

• Evgeny Morozov pointing out Point already made...just piling on WP:Undue

Like your edit here quoting a statement by Tracy Quan, that "RT is a far more interesting network than some care to admit" in the lead paragraph of the reception section? Festermunk (talk) 19:34, 9 November 2012 (UTC)

I looked at the updated subpage of this talk page, which contains the material you want to add. It appears to be 100% negative. That is a red flag. It suggests that you cherry-picked information from the sources, and are rejecting all neutral/positive information. The article, under no circumstances, can be 90% negative and 10% neutral/positive, which is what your proposal would achieve. Can you review the sources and see if there is any neutral/positive information? I've already found a few neutral/positive facts from your sources that are not yet in the article. The WP:UNDUE and WP:NPOV policies require that the article reflect the rough balance of material that is out in the sources. --Noleander (talk) 03:12, 10 November 2012 (UTC)

Remaining issues?

A couple of us had had enough as of yesterday and independently took Festermunk to ANI and 3rrn. So he's indefinitely blocked for edit warring and I DIDN'T HEAR IT... He had a few points that were worth discussing and I tried to discuss them above but he preferred to ignore my attempts to collaborate. So just to be collaborative, below are the things people should comment on if they are problematic or need tweaking:

• Second paragraph of reception section mentions a lot of criticism and then has two sentences inferring too much. Probably could go lower down somewhere but I haven't had energy to deal with yet with all the back and forth; will do sooner rather than later.
• Margarita Simonyan - she acknowledged that she once received flowers on her birthday from Mr. Putin.[6] Our AnonIP put in fuller info in her article saying it was something spontaneous he did on hearing it was her birthday. Worth putting in?? Interesting but not critical.
• "peddling the softer side" of former Soviet Dictator Joseph Stalin, - I did see one less negative/rather humerous comment on it, in addition to this one, so both would have to be mentioned. Is it worth mentioning at all?
• quoted journailst Ed Lucas as saying that the core of RT was, "anti-Westernism."[29] I guess Festermunk put it in. (Yesterday's other Festermunk WP:Undue I'm taking out unless someone beat me to it.) I see a couple existing refs to "anti-Western/American". Leave it in?
• Alyona Show could use more mentioning since a couple sources say it was RT's most popular and/or well thought of show; his quote was just piling on more negativity.

So that's my thoughts for now. CarolMooreDC 14:13, 10 November 2012 (UTC)

Absurd description of VOA

From the Reception>Objectivity section : "After the 2005 announcement the station would be launched, the U.S. government-sponsored VOA[86]". really? just sponsored? sponsored is a nice whitewash for the word funded. but it is not just funded . it is owned by the US government :

"The IBB supports the day-to-day operations of Voice of America" "The position of IBB Director is appointed by the president of the United States, with Senate confirmation" International Broadcasting Bureau

The IBB is part of the Broadcasting Board of Governors, guess who is a member of the board of governors ? Hillary Rodham Clinton the 67th United States Secretary of State. http://www.bbg.gov/about-the-agency/ Should be - "the U.S. government-owned/controlled VOA" 109.67.33.28 (talk) 19:13, 8 November 2012 (UTC)

Festermunk: I could not find that info on the source page so put what I did find. Feel free to correct it. A long derisive post is not necessary to correct a simple error. CarolMooreDC 19:24, 8 November 2012 (UTC)

I'm not Festermonk. I'm the guy who put in the Glen Greenwald original quotes.109.67.33.28 (talk) 19:34, 8 November 2012 (UTC)

Corrected my error. Obviously another reason to get a handle. Feel free to correct with the proper reference, whatever it might be. CarolMooreDC 19:42, 8 November 2012 (UTC)

Subsections in History

I added subsections to the History section and spread it out slightly, as it was very cramped and very long. I am not 100% sure about the subsection titles, any suggestions of better names would be welcome.Hentheden (talk) 22:11, 8 November 2012 (UTC)

I can see it needed to be divided a bit, though I think that's too many.

• It could be done like BBC is done by year, say: 2005-2007; 2008-2011; and 2012 (adding "to present" on January 1 2013).
• Or it could be done topically and yearly: Foundation (1st three paragraphs); Growth (next six paragraphs); and then 2012 (adding "to present" on January 1 2013). I have a slight preference for latter myself. Meanwhile tweaked it a bit and moved awards paragraph to that section. CarolMooreDC 00:22, 9 November 2012 (UTC)

Travelodge

How did Russia Today manage to get shown on almost all UK Travelodge TVs in the early part of the 21st century, even sometimes to the exclusion of nationally-local BBC News 24 which was also available on the "freeview" setup that the Travelodge TV setup was using? Was it part of a global Travelodge/RT deal? I think I've briefly seen an explanation for this in reliable sources somewhere, but it needs to be fleshed out properly and mentioned in the article. --Demiurge1000 (talk) 23:32, 8 November 2012 (UTC)

Quotes from Margarita Simonyan

Two quotes from RT Editor-in-Chief Margarita Simonyan, but im not sure where to add them  : "Simonyan said it was good that countries like Russia are spending money to make their voices heard "after so many years in which the international media scene was reduced to the points of view of Anglo-Saxon countries. For five years, I have been watching BBC and CNN news every day — they have almost exactly the same topics, the same wording, the same order. And for so many years they were the only international TV news sources. … It’s great that there is a channel with a different view, different experts and a different order."

"In regards to Western media criticism of RT's "Coverage of conspiracy theories" Margarita Simonyan, the channel's editor-in-chief argued that the channel’s policy was merely to provide a platform for marginalized points of view that otherwise got little coverage, like the Sept. 11 conspiracy theorists. "I personally do not believe them. But I believe that if there are people out there who think so but do not get into mainstream media, they deserve an audience — and we should give them a forum,”. Simonyan noted that viewer resonance and audience numbers confirmed that the policy is right. She also added that giving airtime to “truthers” was morally comparable to Western media coverage of the 1999 apartment bombings in Moscow and two other cities that killed 293 people. "What about Western media reports saying that Vladimir Putin was behind the bombings?".http://rbth.ru/articles/2010/03/23/230310_rt.html79.180.0.84 (talk) 00:31, 9 November 2012 (UTC)

I already put in short version on apartment bombings. The other is one of a number of good ones she's said on that and similar topics. What's already in there already on the same topic? Is this one shorter and punchier? ("Sound bites!") I have a whole list of them myself I was waiting to look at later to see if they were needed to fill in any obvious holes to balance the article. CarolMooreDC 00:41, 9 November 2012 (UTC)

Scrap

...this sentence from the lead: "RT, according to its corporate profile, "covers the major issues of our time for viewers wishing to question more."" What they do (or don't do) according to their corporate profile is not of any relevance to us or the reader, and the sentence contains only corporate fluff. Right now it's the first sentence of the second paragraph; as it happens, the second sentence works just as well, even better, to open that paragraph, describing that the network does. Not that I want to get involved with this article, of course. Drmies (talk) 02:59, 9 November 2012 (UTC)

Actually it is their slogan and several WP:RS talk about it, but I lazily left it as is. (It runs ads with the slogan several times a day.) Will put on my list to properly place and ref. CarolMooreDC 04:06, 9 November 2012 (UTC)

Or just remove it as unnecessary, since it is. Drmies (talk) 15:39, 9 November 2012 (UTC)

It could go as well in History or elsewhere depending on how WP:RS frame it. I'm just staying away from lead while it's reverted. CarolMooreDC 17:47, 9 November 2012 (UTC)

Carol, this has nothing whatsoever to do with reliable sources. Not everything that is reliably sourced goes in an article. We don't do mission statements, for instance, or visions, or programs, even if they are reliably sourced on the main page of the outfit's website. It's a matter of editorial decision: this is not what good articles anywhere, in the lead or otherwise, unless it is proven to be of special interest (I assume Fox's "Fair and Balanced" is well-written about). I'm going to go ahead and remove it; it can only improve the article. Drmies (talk) 17:58, 9 November 2012 (UTC)

AnonIp editwarring again

Hey, Mr. Bezeq International, you can NOT revert other's material more than 3 times in 24 hours. Please read and study WP:3rr. Adding new material is ok if it doesn't delete other existing material. If you remember a few weeks back the article was protected so AnonIPs couldn't edit at all and that will happen again if 3rr violations continue. So please a) stop doing it and b) consider getting a registered user name so we don't get confused and have to keep checking if it's you or some other AnonIp. Thanks! CarolMooreDC 04:27, 9 November 2012 (UTC)

Carol what do you think of the new lead ? doesn't it sum up everything in a straightforward, respectful and Non POV way ?79.182.22.161 (talk) 04:55, 9 November 2012 (UTC)

Carol I"m truly sorry, but , as usual Festermunk is abusing the revert function to block anything that even smells neutral and not negative .

I have no choice but to revert him back. I"m not even assuming, I'm declaring zero good faith by Festermunk. All this mess is happening ONLY with him.79.182.22.161 (talk) 05:17, 9 November 2012 (UTC)

I get dizzy with the back and forth I really would need more parties to opine at this point to have an opinion besides keep it like it was. CarolMooreDC 05:25, 9 November 2012 (UTC)

OK, AnonIp, I did edit warring complaint vs. Festermunk where refer'd to you, but not official complaint since I didn't have energy to add up the diffs; and last time they dealt with the problem without them. So again consider registering and counting your reverts. Thanks. CarolMooreDC 20:44, 9 November 2012 (UTC)

I would just like to say that I personally agree with you CarolMooreDC and I think the current intro sums up everything in a very nice non-POV way. "I don't understand why you're reverting this when there's already consensus for it, why don't you discuss this on talk?" is complete rubbish Festermunk and what's more you know it. And thanks for cleaning up the History subsections and minor awards CarolMooreDC, it looks much tidier now. Hentheden (talk) 23:52, 9 November 2012 (UTC)

Festermunk has been blocked indefinitely now and Admin said unlikely any appeal will work. So hopefully our Anon IP can now be on his/her best behavior :-) We can revert any problematic edits of last 24-36 hours. And I think I will now archive all the long disputes centered around him so we can just look at the ones that more collaborative editors might want to continue to discuss. I'm quite exhausted tonight myself by all this. CarolMooreDC 00:49, 10 November 2012 (UTC)

I hope you can keep your anons straight. Good luck with it! Drmies (talk) 05:37, 10 November 2012 (UTC)

Thank heavens for Geolocate :-) CarolMooreDC 13:51, 10 November 2012 (UTC)

ANO TV-Novosti general director quote

The following paragraph was in Reception>Objectivity section : ANO TV-Novosti (RT TV's parent Organization) General director (CEO) Mr. Sergey Frolov has stated "Our responsibility is not to be someone's lawyer or prosecutor. It is too stupid to hold information, because then you have to repeat it from others. We do our best to respond swiftly and impartially. Present the facts and not speculate or theorize. Actually, the problem is very simple: If we start to filter news or silent something - people will switch to CNN or BBC."http://translate.google.com/translate?depth=1&hl=en&ie=UTF8&prev=_t&rurl=translate.google.com&sl=auto&tl=en&u=http://www.broadcasting.ru/newstext.php%3Fnews_id%3D25223/

Carolmooredc has reverted this On the grounds that "remove Novosti leader quote since not clear he's talking about RT and not other branches".

I think you made a mistake, and confusing RIA-Novosti headed by Svetlana Mironyuk with ANO TV-Novosti (Which ownes only RT Network) Headed by Sergey Frolov. The cited source Interview is all and only about RT TV.109.65.25.151 (talk) 15:53, 10 November 2012 (UTC)

Yes, the source makes it clear the discussion is about RT-TV. I've restored the material. However, it probably should be cleaned-up, and perhaps moved to another section? --Noleander (talk) 16:28, 10 November 2012 (UTC)

Sorry, think I was starting to get a little burned out. CarolMooreDC 20:52, 12 November 2012 (UTC)

Firing of all RT America Reporters

Anyone have information on the mass firing of most or all of the RT Reporters employed a month ago? This seems to correspond to a sudden shift in RT Focus. Press TV seems to have undergone a similar purge. This coup is very mysterious. I am trying to track down RT Reporters and ask them what happened. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.162.4.7 (talk) 15:45, 27 December 2012 (UTC)

FYI this is their on air talent page which they update from time to time.

Obviously we need reliable sources not original research. Given all the antagonism towards RT, one would think there would be such stories by now. Of course western media fire reporters too when its politically necessary, like right before Iraq war or anyone who criticizes Israel (though even that's gotten a bit more permissible lately under Obama). So we shall see... CarolMooreDC 21:18, 27 December 2012 (UTC)

I see Lauren Lyster already is working for Yahoo Finance so working for RT is not the kiss of death. CarolMooreDC 22:19, 17 January 2013 (UTC)

Controversies_and_criticisms_of_RT

I noticed that there is another name of the article Controversies_and_criticisms_of_RT. If someone finds its appropriate, then a separate article with the name should be created. Now it is misleading. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 193.0.101.218 (talk) 13:10, 19 January 2013 (UTC)

See Reception section which we agreed should have that info, per policy. See above. CarolMooreDC 19:49, 19 January 2013 (UTC)

Obejctivity and Bias

Can we include a para about how anti-EU RT is - and how anti non-white/immigration it appears to be too. I just noticed it was officially endorsed by British National Party leader Nick Griffin as 'the only real news channel!' i.e the only one that actually gives his party significant airtime.

What about including the fact that RT have a strong web presence especially on YouTube — Preceding unsigned comment added by Oxr033 (talk • contribs) 15:22, 30 May 2013 (UTC)

Viewing figures in lead

"Viewers" is defined as "Someone who has tuned in a minimum of one time". I think it's misleading to lump regular views and one-time viewers as 'viewers' because it implies they all watch it when that might not be true. I can't find any neutral sources for the '2 million in the UK' statistic, other than from RT (which has a dead link), apparently RT claims it 'doesn't release figures' or something to that extent. Any ideas? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Oxr033 (talk • contribs) 15:47, 30 May 2013 (UTC)

Thanks for the note. I don't know why sites change all their links so unnecessarily! Probably others are bad too; I did change some a couple weeks ago.

I updated those two but don't have time to verify everything each use says right now. CarolMooreDC - talkie talkie🗽 16:18, 30 May 2013 (UTC)

I removed the claim that "it is the most popular news channel in Britain after the BBC and Sky". What it actually says in the cited source (New Statesman) is "It is, it boasts, the most popular news channel in Britain after the BBC and Sky." i.e. this is referring back to a "boast" from RT itself.--Shantavira|^{feed me} 19:00, 12 December 2013 (UTC)

Why long Russian name in info box?

Per this diff, putting that long ANO "TV-Novosti" (АНО "ТВ-Новости") in the info box title is totally WP:Undue; putting it in the description isn't really necessary; it belongs in the lead. This is English wikipedia. Why is User:TarzanASG insisting on putting Russian names in those two places?? CarolMooreDC - talkie talkie 01:32, 7 June 2013 (UTC)

• It's Russia-based company and de jure it has only Russian original name like Channel One Russia, China Central Television, etc. For example, OJSC VimpelCom is Russian company, but Russian language isn't used in the article about VimpelCom Ltd. because there is no reason for that. It's Wikipedia standard: original name + translation. Isn't it? --TarzanASG (talk) 07:19, 7 June 2013 (UTC)

That's usual practice, but in the lead, not in the info box if it's real long and likely to confuse people. CarolMooreDC - talkie talkie🗽 00:55, 8 June 2013 (UTC)

Propaganda on govt-related stations

Basically that's in there because WP:RS call it a propaganda source. If one objects, the best thing to do is find a couple WP:RS calling the BBC, NPR, and other govt sponsored/supported TV stations elsewhere propaganda, put them in those article and then add the category. That's what I'd do if had the time and energy :-) CarolMooreDC - talkie talkie 18:55, 18 June 2013 (UTC)

Introduction and notable guests

Hi, I just wanted to leave a note here after I saw the page history, in case anyone wants to discuss this. There was previously a list in the introduction of what looked like every important person ever to appear on the channel. I trimmed all but a few (the ones not citing YouTube) and used one of the other existing sources to note the "propaganda" claims. There should probably be a more balanced layout, but at least it looks better for now. Aiwen Zhang (talk) 22:52, 9 November 2013 (UTC)

Totally negative POV driven. reverted79.176.189.89 (talk) 21:47, 11 November 2013 (UTC)

Perhaps people would listen if you articulated your concerns here instead of being disruptive. Just an observation from someone not involved in your dispute. Cheers. Aiwen Zhang (talk) 04:24, 12 November 2013 (UTC)

Go back and read the tremendous POV wars in the past on the tlak page. immense effort has been put to keep this article neutral without personal negative POV79.177.2.120 (talk) 18:11, 15 November 2013 (UTC)

Issue solved: I moved it to the proper section, RT (TV network)#Notable_guests. - Yambaram (talk) 18:53, 15 November 2013 (UTC)

looks good to me. thanks Yambaram79.177.2.120 (talk) 19:52, 15 November 2013 (UTC)

• • @79 From the article it appears that the POV wars on the article have not yet stopped. But please also note that having or not having a POV war ultimately has nothing to do with whether there were any such issues or not. Moreover, the latest discussion of edit warring I can see is almost a year old.

• Since content on any page is decided by policy, could you please provide a rationale for why the paragraph should stay as is on the article? I've also tried to ask the other editor to come to discuss this issue. TheOriginalSoni (talk) 20:22, 15 November 2013 (UTC)

Hi Soni. I did some reading and Wikipedia's guidelines state that the introduction should be a summary of the article -- of which the trivia list is only one part. I also believe there is a policy about not citing primary sources, which supports my culling of the YouTube clips. Finally, if we are supposed to represent the contents of the article in the intro, the disproportionate criticism section merits a passing mention per my original edit. The current version without any guests or criticism is fine by me though. Aiwen Zhang (talk) 08:49, 16 November 2013 (UTC)

Anti-Israel paragraph

I just looked over the paragraph that was being argued over before I wandered into this mess and it's actually quite flimsy in light of Wikipedia's guidelines on subject weight.

RT has been accused of being anti-Israel by officials and media outlets on multiple occasions. The main claims are that it's too one sided, that it uses propaganda in news reports, and exaggerates events - which once led to an official complaint made by Israel's foreign minister to Putin at their meeting. Examples include RT's reportedly anti-Israel correspondent Abby Martin's accusation against Israel, claiming that the country uses 'Hitler Methods' like no other country, or The Algemeiner critics of RT, saying that the news network's anti-Israel agenda has gone even further than Arab TV.

US Jewish groups think everyone is anti-Israel and at best the wording is dishonest. Please discuss before re-adding the paragraph. Or keep ignoring the talk page and go back to accusing people of vandalism. Aiwen Zhang (talk) 18:43, 17 November 2013 (UTC)

Nobody is hiding this, as being accused by the pusher of this paragraph. it is simply edited to conform to wikipedia guidelines. this is how it's now displayed in the article :

RT has been accused of being anti-Israel by Jewish and Israeli sources. The main claims are that its too one sided and unbalanced reporting - which once led to a complaint made by Israel's foreign minister Avigdor Lieberman to Putin at their official meeting.[138][139][140][141]

Now it's is in accordance to wikipeida policy of NPOV, Neutrality and Undueweight79.180.117.184 (talk) 23:20, 17 November 2013 (UTC)

No it isn't. "Jewish sources" is offensive. I would rather see something like "US Senator Joe Lieberman said..." or better yet incorporate it elsewhere. I won't have time to figure it out this week so I guess we'll see which version prevails. Aiwen Zhang (talk) 23:49, 17 November 2013 (UTC)

Why is it offensive? Israeli newspapers are called Israeli sources. And the second source ,describes its own self as a Jewish newspaper:

The Algemeiner

The fastest growing Jewish newspaper in America, the NEW Algemeiner serves as a valiant media voice addressing the most compelling issues of our time, with vision, integrity and moral clarity.

Hence 'Jewish sources'. you implying that describing a source as 'Jewish' is somehow offensive - is offensive. I also found it important to note this in the article , because ALL the sources (israeli + jewish) reporting "RT Anti-israel" have, naturally, a Bias favorable towards israel.79.177.145.220 (talk) 03:47, 18 November 2013 (UTC)

The Algemeiner Journal cannot claim it speaks for the Jews anymore than their friends at Fox News can claim to speak for the Americans. The "Algmeiner critics is sourced to one reporter, Lakkana Nanayakkara. A neutral way of phrasing the it would be to say that some right-wing politicians in Israel and their media supporters have accused RT of being anti-Israel. TFD (talk) 04:50, 18 November 2013 (UTC)

neutrality of the article

In light of this, I'm surprised that there isn't any section about how controversial the network. At least there needs to be a debate about this. Royalenlightenment (talk) 17:28, 9 December 2013 (UTC)

But there is one! 4.2 Mezigue (talk) 17:55, 9 December 2013 (UTC)

Your source does not say RT is controversial, but says it strives to provide "balanced" coverage. TFD (talk) 18:19, 9 December 2013 (UTC)

@ Mezigue: I should've been clearer, a controversial/criticism section that addresses solely the controversies of RT, not as a subsection of another section, or lumping it in with other headings so as to dilute the content.

@ TDF: the balance coverage part is about RIA Novosti. If you look at what is written about RT in the article ("which for opposition-minded Russians is more of a government mouthpiece, giving carefully selected news with a clear pro-Kremlin bias.") it is clearly controversial with at least some of the russian population.Royalenlightenment (talk) 20:13, 9 December 2013 (UTC)

Also, why is there no mention of anything of the "reception section" in the intro section given how long the reception section is? And for the reception section, why can't you just make a section that is for RT and another one that perceives it negatively? That seems to be the point of a reception section...Royalenlightenment (talk) 20:25, 9 December 2013 (UTC)

And as for this edit, yes I understand Russia Today is different from RT, but all I've done is mainly just move information around! Royalenlightenment (talk) 21:18, 9 December 2013 (UTC)

Objectivity & Criticism?

"David Weigel writes that RT goes further than merely creating distrust of the United States government, to saying, in effect: "You can trust the Russians more than you can trust those bastards." highly unencyclopedic quotation

"Since its foundation in 2005, RT has attracted wide criticism in the West..." weasel wording

"Russian-Israeli blogger Anton Nosik (ru) said the creation of Russia Today "smacks of Soviet-style propaganda campaigns..." Anton Who?? non-notable source

"A representative of Reporters Without Borders..." Weasel wording. Representative's name?? "Luke Harding in The Guardian described Russia Today's advertising campaign in the United Kingdom as an 'ambitious attempt to create a new post-Soviet global propaganda empire.'" hostile source; irrelevant personal opinion

"In Russia, former KGB officer Konstantin Preobrazhensky criticized RT as "a part of the Russian industry of misinformation and manipulation".[143] Andrey Illarionov, former advisor to Vladimir Putin, has labeled the channel as "the best Russian propaganda machine targeted at the outside world." highly hostile sources; anti-Putin political bias likely to cloud judgement; despite being state funded, RT is a news organization and not the Russian government itself.

More on the section titled "objectivity and criticism". Many news organizations have their biases and give weight to particular viewpoints on certain issues and this is NOT a crime, so long as fundamental ethics are not violated. No credible media organization will tolerate racial incitement, for example. Furthermore, none of the criticisms in the section can really be related to professional or ethical misconduct on the part of RT. If evidence of misconduct does exist, then it can be placed under a suggested "Controversy" heading just as in the Wikipedia entry for CNN. Under such a heading, specific, concrete examples of misrepresentation of facts, editorial interference, bribery etc if they exist and are well sourced, can be placed. As it currently stands, the criticisms directed against RT appear to be based on nothing other than the fact that it is Russian and/or lends more weight to viewpoints highly critical of western mainstream perspectives. --Campingtrip (talk) 07:14, 15 January 2014 (UTC)

Abby Martin

I'm the last one to be influenced by TV or by some presenter's personal war with Wikipedia. However, thre is an will be an influx of people trying to find her after what she (very bravely) said. Just leaving it here. 95.49.169.254 (talk) 12:32, 4 March 2014 (UTC)

What's all this about a page about her being censored? She was on about it this morning.Keith-264 (talk) 08:36, 15 January 2014 (UTC)

It is a bit of a story. To keep it simple, Abby Martin wanted her article created on Wikipedia. It was in the mainspace, so anyone is allowed to hold an Article for Deletion review on it. It failed the discussion and was redirected here. So, several users recreated the article. Another AfD was held and it was redirected here again. Then, a few users went a bit rouge and restored the page. After an edit war, an admin enforced the redirect and locked the article from being created in the mainspace, but it is still allowed in the userspace. Martin was upset and blasted Wikipedia for it. Her followers did the same and basically hit the Article Feedback with complaints of censorship. (If any of you are reading this, you could just create the article at Wikipedia talk:Articles for creation/Abby Martin and get it approved for the mainspace.) --Super Goku V (talk) 01:39, 16 January 2014 (UTC)

User:Super Goku V, on what do you base your initial assertion that "Abby Martin wanted her article created on Wikipedia"? It seems to imply that events were explicitly initiated by her rather than done independently by editors interested in her and her show. --Kevjonesin (talk) 06:50, 16 January 2014 (UTC)

My sentence was more in regards to her wanting a page on Wikipedia, though looking closer at the issue does show things a bit better. If you look at [the history for Abby Martin], you will see that everything appears to be finished on December 30 in that the AfDs were done and the redirect was put in place. However, on January 12, the page was edited by a small group of users within a four hour window. After User:John Reaves locked the page for editing, Martin made a tweet about it here the following day. Considering that she would have know about it on the 30th, I don't see why she would comment on it the day after it got deleted a third time. Not matter what happened, she did help to produce two different videos on Youtube about what she believes occurred and blasting us for it. All things considered, I believe that is enough to say that she wanted an article on Wikipedia. --Super Goku V (talk) 17:21, 16 January 2014 (UTC)

Right on. I think you're saying 'quacks like a duck ...'. Though in that second vid you linked it seems she's more concerned/astounded by the Wikipedia process than by the existence or lack thereof of an article about her. I've come to warn folks—when Wikipedia comes up in conversation—that, much like law and sausages, it's not always so pretty when you get-under-the-hood and see how it's made. --Kevjonesin (talk) 06:50, 17 January 2014 (UTC)

Basically, you hit the hammer on the nail. Anyways, it seems that several users are working together to come up with an article. The only issue that I see left is what to do about tge Feedback, but that can be handled in time. --Super Goku V (talk) 20:45, 17 January 2014 (UTC)

Thank you very much. I take it that writing a decent article would be the constructive thing to do?Keith-264 (talk) 08:26, 25 January 2014 (UTC)

User:Viriditas has a sandbox version, User:Viriditas/Abby Martin, going and has mentioned that he's open to collaborating. --Kevjonesin (talk) 18:35, 25 January 2014 (UTC)

I am no fan of Ms Martin, but believe she, and all of the most senior anchors, hosts, and correspondent of RT should have separate short articles. As highly visible media individuals making a daily impact (review the market penetration information in RT article opening), there will be curiosity regarding these individuals—where are they from, where did they study journalism, where did they work before RT, have they ever received awards, etc.? Wikipedia is a venue where this information can be aggregated and presented in unbiased fashion. I haven't time or professional cause to champion this, but would ask that the question be revisited at a high, and objective level. LeProf — Preceding unsigned comment added by 50.179.245.225 (talk) 17:05, 12 February 2014 (UTC)

Ditto that. At the very least, at this point, it seems odd that there is no explicit mention of her on "Criticism of Wikipedia." — Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.169.154.237 (talk) 02:42, 21 February 2014 (UTC)

• FYI, There's a proposed new version for AfC review located at Wikipedia_talk:Articles_for_creation/Abby_Martin.

--Kevjonesin (talk) 00:24, 22 February 2014 (UTC)

Propaganda

Please don't add the word propaganda again, the source doesn't even mention it in this context.--Communist-USSR (talk) 17:31, 21 February 2014 (UTC)

Communist-USSR, It would be easier for me, and likely others, to follow your comment if you'd post a link here—from the article's page history—to the edit(s) to which you refer and/or otherwise elaborate a bit more. --Kevjonesin (talk) 00:14, 22 February 2014 (UTC)

Also, put in reliable sources [RS] which validate your position. — Charles Edwin Shipp (talk) 15:34, 6 March 2014 (UTC)

Objections to coverage in March 2014

http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/1403/05/pmt.01.html Nick Kristof (of NY Times), Liz Wahl, and Abby Martin on Piers Morgan. - Sidelight12 ^Talk 16:31, 6 March 2014 (UTC)

Liz Wahl quits

http://www.theverge.com/2014/3/5/5475538/rt-anchor-liz-wahl-quits-on-air — Preceding unsigned comment added by 62.245.205.130 (talk) 06:43, 6 March 2014 (UTC)

Headline-1: Watch Russia Today Anchor Boldly Quit Her Job on the Air: ‘I Am Proud to Be an American’

• http://www.theblaze.com/stories/2014/03/05/going-viral-russia-today-anchor-quits-her-job-at-state-owned-tv-network-live-on-the-air/

QUOTING: Wahl said she is the grandchild of Hungarian refugees who fled brutal Soviet oppression.

“I am very lucky to have grown up here in the United States,” she said. “I am the daughter of a veteran, my partner is a physician at a military base, where he sees everyday the firsthand accounts of the ultimate prices that people pay for this country.”

“That is why personally I cannot be part of a network that is funded by the Russian government that whitewashes the actions of Putin. I am proud to be an American and believe in disseminating the truth. And that is why after this newscast I am resigning,” Wahl concluded.

Headline-2: Russia Today Anchor Quits On Air.

• Voice of America: http://www.voanews.com/content/russia-today-anchor-quits-on-the-air/1865548.html

"In order to succeed there you don’t question," she said.

Headline-3: Russia Today Anchor Quits Over Ukraine Coverage; Former Host Says Network’s Credibility Is “Destroyed!"

• http://www.slate.com/blogs/weigel/2014/03/05/russia_today_anchor_quits_over_ukraine_coverage_former_host_says_network.html

This Slate writer provides some interesting insights.

Headline-4: VIDEO: Watch TV news presenter quit live on air over channel's presentation of Ukraine crisis.

• http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/weird-news/liz-wahl-news-anchor-quits-3212240

QUOTING FROM THE ARTICLE: "As she closed her bulletin on Wednesday the journalist told of being from a family who fled to America to escape Soviet forces during the 1956 Hungarian revolution. She added she was the daughter of a military veteran and her partner was a physician who worked for the U.S. army “where he sees every day first hand accounts of the ultimate prices people pay for this country.”

She then said: "And that is why, personally, I cannot be part of a network funded by the Russian government that whitewashes the actions of Putin.

"I'm proud to be an American and believe in disseminating the truth. And that is why, after this newscast, I'm resigning.”

Charles Edwin Shipp (talk) 16:29, 6 March 2014 (UTC)

Headline-5: RT reacts to anchor Liz Wahl quitting on air

• http://rt.com/usa/rt-reacts-liz-wahl-042/

"...it is nothing more than a self-promotional stunt. We wish Liz the best of luck on her chosen path."
Charles Edwin Shipp (talk) 16:38, 6 March 2014 (UTC)

Bad citation - cited article does not validate claim

I read the cited article for the following two claims. It did not validate either of them. These claims may still be valid. Just that the citation used does not justify them. (The citation refers to a Nielsen ratings report that could validate (or invalidate) these claims.)

• the number one foreign station in five major U.S. urban areas in 2012.
• It is also very popular among younger American people, U.S. college students, and in U.S. inner city neighborhoods.

Mdnahas (talk) 03:38, 10 March 2014 (UTC)

Nielson is the only way that I know of for tv viewership samples to be collected, and statistics (from primetime to superbowl to world series) are based on it. Are you referring to something else? - Sidelight12 ^Talk 07:46, 11 March 2014 (UTC)

roflmao

It is also very popular among younger American people, U.S. college students, and in U.S. inner city neighborhoods

got an ubbiased ref for that? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.148.193.254 (talk) 03:54, 13 March 2014 (UTC)

Criticism section

This reference is used many times, but has a broken link

Marcin Maczka, The Propaganda Machine, New Eastern Europe website, July 9, 2012, originally published in New Eastern Europe: New Europe, Old Problems No. 3 (IV), 2012. http://www.neweasterneurope.eu/node/383

In the second to the last paragraph in the criticism section, I think the quotation marks were misplaced, but I can't verify it from the above broken link. "Andrey Illarionov, former advisor..." - Sidelight12 ^Talk

Morgan Piers interviews Martin, Wahl and Kristof

Advisement to reinsert Kristof's comments on Morgan Piers like

"In March 2014, New York Times op-ed columnist, Nicholas Kristof said on Piers Morgan Live, 'at the end of the day, RT is a Russian propaganda arm.'"

or add comments Kristof made comments about Wahl and Martin's actions. - Sidelight12 ^Talk 08:15, 11 March 2014 (UTC)

Kristof is certainly notable, and the fact that similar claims have been added to this article already is no reason to delete this one (as an IP is claiming in edit summaries). petrarchan47tc 23:29, 18 March 2014 (UTC)

It's also in the same transcript as Pier's interviewing Martin and Wahl. I made a mistake the first time around by putting the wrong link in, that didn't have the full show. I will ask the ip from the same region and likely same user to discuss their concerns. http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/1403/05/pmt.01.html - Sidelight12 ^Talk 23:38, 18 March 2014 (UTC)

Wahl drama continues

• An Afternoon with Liz Wahl, the Reporter Who Quit RT and Hasn't Heard the End of It
• Neocon Con? US right stage media attack on alternative news (RT) petrarchan47tc 11:25, 20 March 2014 (UTC)
• Liz Wahl interview with Brian Stelter of CNN - Sidelight12 ^Talk 01:17, 24 March 2014 (UTC)

Definitely need to bring up that neocon connection. When I look at it more closely will figure out how to put it in. Meanwhile see TruthDig's Max Blumenthal and Rania Khalek article; Neocon Foreign Policy Initiative interview with Liz Wahl by James Kirchick; [Slate defending Wahl, Funnier Slate followup article on same. Amusing to watch the propaganda battles, after all... Carolmooredc (Talkie-Talkie) 20:34, 28 March 2014 (UTC)

Possible sources

Here is some additional source material that I'm not sure about incorporating into the article, I might come back to it later, if someone else wants to, feel free --Trappedinburnley (talk) 20:22, 27 March 2014 (UTC)

• Rosie Gray, How The Truth Is Made At Russia Today, Buzzfeed, March 13 2014
• Margarita Simonyan, 5 very serious answers to 5 very serious questions from BuzzFeed, RT, March 12 2014

• Kiev snipers hired by Maidan leaders - leaked EU's Ashton phone tape, RT, March 05 2014
• Doctor disputes Estonian foreign minister's claims, ITV, 13 Mar 2014
• Ukraine crisis: March 5 as it happened, The Telegraph, 5 Mar 2014

• Time to grab guns and kill damn Russians – Tymoshenko in leaked tape, RT, March 25 2014
• Tymoshenko denies 'wipe out Russians' comment, Al Jazeera, 25 Mar 2014

The Al Jazeera or Itv sources above don't mention RT, nor has a relation to the topic. Don't know if Itv is reliable. The log style events from Telegraph (@ 00.25) would be hard to use, or to find something that hasn't been said, but it does point to 'Buzzfeed' (listed above) and 'the Daily Beast' (added below). RT sources could be used, under certain circumstances, like to give detail or a quote of what a third-party source mentioned (the buzzfeed rtv interaction might be useful for something). I believe the source from Buzzfeed's site can be used. - Sidelight12 ^Talk 04:59, 28 March 2014 (UTC)

• Exclusive: RT anchor Liz Wahl Explains Why She Quit

My thinking behind the first two is obvious. The others do need further explanation. While watching RT I've noticed quite a lot of stories based on intercepted phone calls at "somehow" got posted to social media (Turkey seems to be having a similar problem ATM, can't imagine why :) ). All appear to be edited (In the case of the Tymoshenko story, some sentences have obviously been constructed from clips). The problem I've got is that many of the storys run across Russian media and while I can show that they're always disputed, finding someone responding specifically to RT is more difficult. Maybe they would be more suited to a different article? --Trappedinburnley (talk) 19:32, 28 March 2014 (UTC)

A few more on the theme of propaganda --Trappedinburnley (talk) 19:46, 30 March 2014 (UTC)

• Julia Ioffe, What Is Russia Today? Columbia Journalism Review, 28 Sep 2010
• Russia wages propaganda war over Ukraine, ft.com, 3 March 2014
• Robert Fulford, Putin’s news network, National Post, 29 March 2014
• András Simonyi, Our Answer to Vladimir Putin Is... Stephen Colbert, Huffington Post, 28 March 2014

  I guess I can find several dozens Russian language sources saying it is propaganda - but I do not see why all of them should be in the article.--Ymblanter (talk) 20:13, 30 March 2014 (UTC)

  Yevgeny Kiselyov compared RT with the Völkischer Beobachter [1]--Ymblanter (talk) 07:23, 31 March 2014 (UTC)

I agree that if the sources don’t add something new to the article they probably shouldn’t need to be included. I assume from your subsequent comment in the Propaganda Tool discussion that you understand my thinking behind searching for them. Actually a few Russian based sources would surely go some way to countering the Western bias argument? --Trappedinburnley (talk) 20:23, 31 March 2014 (UTC)

Keeping article NPOV

I worked a lot on this a few years ago and haven't looked at lately. Just made a few changes which weren't exactly NPOV oriented. But can see that the addition of a criticism section in addition to responses which includes a lot of criticism, is already problematic, without reading it. Probably a lot of WP:Undue in there. Will have to review the rest. I hope old rejected stuff was not dredged up; we'll see...

It looks like partisans on either side have not been doing too good a job keeping it NPOV per policy. There is no doubt West's government regulated/controlled (and sometimes owned) media outlets also engage in rather obvious propaganda. Wikipedia editors are supposed to be smart enough to use sources to transcend either type of propaganda, not push it or fall for it. So let's be smart.  :-) Carolmooredc (Talkie-Talkie) 20:31, 28 March 2014 (UTC)

Propaganda tool

Frankly, I am sick of this. There was a statement in the lede that the channel has been accused in propaganda. In the article, there is a section about this, which is well sourced. I did not add the statement, but after someone removed it I reformulated the statement. It has been repeatedly removed by one user in good standing, at least two IPs, and now by a user who edits infrequently. The removals have been reverted, not only by me, but also by other users in good standing. Not I was accused in blatant POV (note that the last IP tried to change the sentence adding that this is an anglo-american POV). None of the users ever made an effort to open a discussion at the talk page. Since I do not really like edit-warring, I have to open it. Please give your opinions on whether the sentence ("The network, particularly due to its coverage of the 2014 Crimean crisis, has been repeatedly referred to as a propaganda tool.") belongs to the lede. I welcome users in good standing to comment, not socks. Thank you.--Ymblanter (talk) 19:32, 29 March 2014 (UTC)

The personal POV summary statement "The network, particularly due to its coverage of the 2014 Crimean crisis, has been repeatedly referred to as a propaganda tool.", currently being pushed by Ymblanter, has been introduced couple of days ago by Trappedinburnley (then in the form of "The channel is often criticised for its lack of impartiality and use of propaganda."). The statement is an unsourced summary that's at best POV pushing and at worst contains weasel words. It establishes nothing (who?, when?, where's the source?) other than that Ymblanter and Trappedinburnley don't like RT, which is a valid POV, but it doesn't belong in an encyclopedia entry.Zvonko (talk) 20:11, 29 March 2014 (UTC)

There is no POV. RT is widely taken as such. Referenced too.--Galassi (talk) 20:13, 29 March 2014 (UTC)

So why are no sources provided for the above statement, then? Well, because there are none - the statement has been written by Ymblanter and Trappedinburnley who synthesized it from the specifically cited criticism by the specific individuals, all of which is covered in the criticism section. Pushing personal POV through synthesizing opinions is a clear violation of the explicit wiki policy against original research Wikipedia:SYNTH. Zvonko (talk) 20:37, 29 March 2014 (UTC)

I was the one who started this, so sorry for any difficulties I’ve caused. I’ve watched quite a lot of RT in the UK, especially during times of conflict involving Russia. I’m genuinely interested in Russia’s honest view of things. Sadly RT doesn’t really help me there.

RT is obviously a propaganda tool, that isn’t to say it’s all lies. Most of the content is clearly intended to undermine confidence in our (western audiences) leaders, sources of information, even our way of life. The rest is about promoting Russian interests ie Anti-fracking = Russia has lots of natural gas to export.

So far I’ve been unable to find any straight denials from RT either. Just counterclaims that Western media is also full of propaganda and that the truth is so elusive that all news is POV. The article does have balance issues, and if I could find intelligent rebuttal from respectable people I would add it. If anyone else can, feel free. Then we could add something positive to the sentence, but I don’t know if it will stop people trying to remove it.

The lead section of an article is a supposed to be a summary. This article has lots of well sourced content criticizing the channel including the word propaganda. Not mentioning that in the lead is obviously incorrect. The guidelines on Weasel Wording and referencing don’t apply in the same way to the lead, again because it is a summary. OR? Nonsense. I should point that it is a simple matter to add a nice string of refs to the statement, making them easier to find.

The obvious way forward is try and find wording that people are more comfortable with, but I have no idea what that might be.--Trappedinburnley (talk) 21:23, 29 March 2014 (UTC)

First off, your personal views on RT (or anything else for that matter) are entirely irrelevant here. The Talk section of a Wiki article isn't a personal blog. Let's stick to the article and how it fits into the Wiki guidelines.

"The lead section of an article is a supposed to be a summary. This article has lots of well sourced content criticizing the channel including the word propaganda. Not mentioning that in the lead is obviously incorrect. "

Under the sections "Criticism", "Guests", and "Responses to RT's news coverage", the article's present version cites the opinions of thirty six different individuals/organizations about RT with seven of them using the word "propaganda". That's 7 out of 36. Highlighting the term used by less than one fifth of those deemed worthy of having their opinions included in the article is misleading.

"The guidelines on Weasel Wording and referencing don’t apply in the same way to the lead, again because it is a summary."

What gave you that idea? The criteria for lead section is here Wikipedia:Lede.Zvonko (talk) 22:21, 29 March 2014 (UTC)

See: Wikipedia: The Missing Manual & WP:WEASEL Should we assume that you would support expanding the sentence with views commonly found in the other sources? --Trappedinburnley (talk) 22:58, 29 March 2014 (UTC)

We? ... Are you representing a group of editors? As for your question, I'd have to see what you (the plural you, the singular you, or however many of you there are) have in mind specifically.

Generally speaking, the articles covering subjects whose temporal and contextual scope isn't straightforward, that is they're open to interpretation and personal POV, should stay away from summarizing other people's opinions of it. This is why sections such as "Reception" and/or "Criticism" exist.Zvonko (talk) 23:36, 29 March 2014 (UTC)

Like Zvonko said, this is blatant POV pushing. The claim is not attributed/it's clearly WP:WEASEL, and it's not even sourced. Just because a few individuals (rivals might I add) have criticized RT does not mean we can present their opinions as prevalent and factual in the lead of the article. Bottom line: Stop pushing unsourced POV material. LokiiT (talk) 00:49, 30 March 2014 (UTC)

It is perfectly sourced in the body of the article, and I already have drawn your attention to this fact. The sensence in the lede summarizeds the article and does not have to be sourced.--Ymblanter (talk) 07:30, 30 March 2014 (UTC)

Selective summarizing (you picked a characterization used by 7 sources out of 36 and decided to highlight it in the lede) to reflect your personal POV, in addition to weasel terminology like "repeatedly", was the guideline violation in the statement you wrote. The current one written by Volunteer Marek is a bit less egregious only because he bothered to introduce two new sources (though he hasn't bothered to expand upon them in the article's body) so he highlighted a characterization used by 9 out 38 sources while ignoring all others. In both instances we have a misinterpretation of the article in the lede.Zvonko (talk) 15:12, 30 March 2014 (UTC)

Look, you can write 20 more times that it is my POV. I suggest you better read carefully the answers, since all your objections have been carefully refuted.--Ymblanter (talk) 19:19, 30 March 2014 (UTC)

Bottom line: Reliable Sources ref'd use precisely that term "propaganda". The section you removed is well ref'd not WP:SYN. Capitalismojo (talk) 02:17, 30 March 2014 (UTC)

The way it works is that the lede summarizes the article. If an article talks about some important aspect of its subject, and that info is sourced in the main body of the article, then it is not necessary to source the summary sentence(s) in the lede. But just for good measure, I added a few sources to the lede sentence(s) as well.Volunteer Marek (talk) 02:31, 30 March 2014 (UTC)

To be precise you took one existing source (out of 36 existing ones) and highlighted it in the lede because it fits your POV. Those that don't fit your POV, you ignored. Then you added two sources in the lede that were previously not in the article and are thus not actually explained within the article that you're supposedly summarizing.

So right now the lede "summarizes" the supposedly general opinion of RT as "propaganda" even though such characterization is used in 9 out of 38 opinions (23%) given in the article.

So yeah, kudos - you summarized the article's 'reception' part so well that you failed to include 77% of the opinions in it. Great job.Zvonko (talk) 03:44, 30 March 2014 (UTC)

I'm not sure if I understand what you're saying. Yes, I added two additional sources to support the claim. How is that "bad"? And we don't need every single source about RT to describe them as "propaganda". We just need a sufficient number so that characterization is noteworthy. And that we more than have.Volunteer Marek (talk) 07:16, 30 March 2014 (UTC)

Looks like I'm gonna have to draw here. Those two source aren't expanded upon within the article's body. The lede is a summary. How can you summarize something that hasn't been laid out first? That's one problem.

Another, bigger, problem is the fact that the lede you've written is completely inadequately summarizing the "reception" section of the article. It pushes your own POV using terminology and characterization that's supported by only 23% of the actual opinions in the article. So for the third time - the article contains 38 opinions of the subject (counting your two source that haven't yet been expanded upon in the article), 9 of those 38 opinions use the characterization being highlighted in the lede. Inadequate summary.Zvonko (talk) 13:36, 30 March 2014 (UTC)

• First, noting that an outlet engages in propaganda is not unusual. See Category:United_States_government_propaganda_organizations with 18 odd entries. However, even if two or three sources use phrase "propaganda tool" - and in relation to some particular incident - in any of these articles that language is just not NPOV or appropriate for a lead. And who describes it as such needs to be described in the reception/criticism section (of which there only should be one). Carolmooredc (Talkie-Talkie) 03:16, 30 March 2014 (UTC)

But it's not just "two or three sources", it's a common description. As to the "who" you can propose adequate wording if you'd like, but the fact that it is widely perceived and described as such is a fact.Volunteer Marek (talk) 07:16, 30 March 2014 (UTC)

The characterization as "widely" and "repeatedly" are entirely unsupported by facts. What you consider "wide" and "repeated" appears in 9 out of 38 sources.Zvonko (talk) 13:36, 30 March 2014 (UTC)

Maybe you'd have a valid point if this was a case of 9 sources saying "it's propaganda" and the other 29 saying "no, it's not propaganda". But that's not the case here. You have 9 sources saying "it's propaganda" and 29 just not addressing that particular issue. It's like if I survey sources which mention "the earth" and noted that only a fraction of them make an explicit claim that "the earth is round" but most don't bother making that statement explicitly, and then try to argue that in the article on Earth we cannot state that it is round, because *only* a fraction of sources state so explicitly. Nonsense.Volunteer Marek (talk) 21:17, 30 March 2014 (UTC)

The argument for removing the propaganda claim has been, "I don't like it." Propaganda is what they do, it is well documented, and it is the truth. Their own reporters and an increasing amount of reliable sources even said that. The lead is a summary which is well referenced within the article. I judged RT without bias at the beginning, until I looked into it. So, its ok for RT to take elements of the truth to distort it? So, RT can take quotes or pictures out of context to completely change the meaning? Wikipedia isn't allowed to do that. It's either hypocrisy or clinging to beliefs for people to expect a double standard in Wikipedia, which Wikipedia is following, and expect no standards in another place. Besides, it says it has been referred to as, which says this is the voice of reliable sources, not Wikipedia's voice. So do you want us to lie, to achieve what you call NPOV? - Sidelight12 ^Talk 06:39, 30 March 2014 (UTC)

Editorializing, soapboxing, and grandstanding. This tendency to treat Wikipedia talk pages as a personal blog is really starting to get on my nerves. Nobody here cares about your personal views on anything. Stop sharing them. They're irrelevant.

We're discussing the content of the lede here. Right now, as it stands, it doesn't adequately summarize the opinions of the subject being discussed in the article. It favours one opinion (that of RT being Russian propaganda) over others because that POV happens to be shared by several editors who are aggressively pushing it.Zvonko (talk) 13:36, 30 March 2014 (UTC)

You're soapboxing by using omission. The RELIABLE SOURCES say this. And with other Wikipedia articles, GENERALLY DONE, the introduction, while not using a source, SUMMARIZES STATEMENTS THAT ARE SOURCED. There is a statement that says, NPOV is what reliable sources have to say about it. If you can't find something that favors your opinion, you probably can't. You can't cry out, NPOV is to make Kim Jong look good. So you haven't addressed anything, and replaced another opinion with your own. Did you read anything other than only 1 line of opinion? Wow, you used that excuse to ignore everything else, good job. And, if you missed it, I was talking about the lead. Do you want us to lie and use omission to achieve what you call NPOV? Basically, you just don't like it. If anything, omitting it from the lead is non-neutral POV. - Sidelight12 ^Talk 16:39, 30 March 2014 (UTC)

Do you posses any cognitive ability or comprehension skills? You're accusing me of omission while without blinking you support a summary that ignores 77% of what it is supposedly summarizing. If you insist on lede summarizing the relevant opinions on the subject than it should SUMMARIZE THEM, not 23% SUMMARIZE THEM. As for the other stuff, Kim Jong et al. - please save it for your blog or Facebook page. Zvonko (talk) 18:51, 30 March 2014 (UTC)

1/4 of refs is an awful lot, and it is less than 1/4 of the lead. There were about 20 different claims in the article that said it is propaganda. Are there that many reliable statements, or refs that say otherwise? That's a lot, don't you think? Why didn't you add to the summary in the lead instead of whining? Did you miss that? You either can't, or you expect us to do your work for you. More of your useless disguised opinion. - Sidelight12 ^Talk 19:16, 30 March 2014 (UTC)

1/4 is 1/4. 1/4 does not equate to "an awful lot" nor to any other characterization other than 1/4. It is one quarter of something. You can not pretend to summarize something by highlighting only 23% of it and then call it a summary. That's not a summary, it is peddling of a personal POV.

9 out of 38 opinions use the word propaganda. 29 do not. Highlighting the former while ignoring the latter because it fits your POV is a violation.

As for your accusation that I whine too much let me just remind you again how we got here. TrapedinBurnley and Ymblater have an obviously strong and clear personal POV about the subject of this article. So strong in fact, that they wanted to include their personal POV in the lede. So they selectively mined the opinions already presented and expanded upon in the article's body for the specific characterization that fits their personal POV. They managed to find a suitable characterization that fits their POV among those opinions and proceeded to highlight it in the lede, all the while pretending that such a POV-heavy highlighting constitutes a "summary" despite the fact that it appears in 7 out of 36 opinions (19%). Then came VolonteerMarek and made a bad "summary" even worse, though at least he bothered to find two new sources that support his (and TrapedinBurnley and Ymblater's) POV but didn't actually expand those two new sources in the article. So now the 'summary' characterization in the lede reflects 9 out of 38 (23%) of the opinions in the article. And all of the above is perfectly fine by you because it fits your own personal POV.

And now we come to your "whining" characterization of me. You and your buddies (you and TrapedinBurnley use plural pronouns like 'we' and 'us' so I guess one is to assume you act like a block here) first decide to push your own POV in lede, then you pretend that your POV in lede is actually a summary, and now when you are called out for it you quickly put the burden of fixing this mess on me.Zvonko (talk) 08:03, 31 March 2014 (UTC)

Would you please stop bullshitting. If someone here has a strong personal opinion about the subject this is you. So strong in fact that you continued to revert until you overstepped four reverts, and I had to report you. Concerning your argument, you were already pointed out that your argument is void, but once again: Do you want me to add 30 more references with call RT propaganda so that these references will be in majority? I can easily do this.--Ymblanter (talk) 08:08, 31 March 2014 (UTC)

I do not appreciate your aggressive tone and uncivilized language. Wikipedia:Civility

It's becoming clear that expecting anything sensible from you like good faith or constructive editing is an exercise in futility.Zvonko (talk) 09:36, 31 March 2014 (UTC)

Weren't you the first one to hurl insults? If you want to water down that line, go ahead, but don't remove it. It was fine before, but someone tagged it with, who what when, so now, who what when is answered. Apparently, the person who tagged it, doesn't like how that backfired. 1/4 of sources, or including 20 (counted) claims by notable individuals is enough for inclusion in the lead. "has been repeatedly referred to as a propaganda" avoids Wikipedia's voice so is NPOV, but to say "it is propaganda" would not be NPOV. It was one line of the summary. If the whole lead said this, then you'd have a point, but it doesn't. Despite my viewpoint, it is NPOV to include the mention in the lead. Reliable sources say this, it so happens English is a western language, but there are even reliable non-western sources in English. When I had a content dispute in a science article where research is scarce, I did the work to ensure it was more Neutral in POV, and found if the claims didn't reflect the sources, even if I didn't access all the sources behind paywalls. It so happens here, I'm reflecting the sources as they are. And its not like they're behind paywalls. I use rules as they are used generally by Wikipedians all across Wikipedia. So, should we change the rules just for you, simply because 'you don't like it'? I actually won't argue with removing "and has been described as an "'extension of... Putin's ... confrontational foreign policy'. The criticism of the network's nature as a propaganda tool increased during the coverage of the 2014 Crimean crisis." but if someone tags it again with "what, when" then mention of the Crimean crises goes right back in. - Sidelight12 ^Talk 10:18, 31 March 2014 (UTC)

The notable statements by many more in those 23% of reliable sources in the article to account for mention into the lead but less then 23% of the lead = due weight. - Sidelight12 ^Talk 10:43, 31 March 2014 (UTC)

Apparently (from the discussion above) One quarter of the refs and sources here talk about RT as a propaganda outlet. (9 0f 28) That is "widely" but removing the word "widely" and replacing it with "commonly" or "often" might work as well. Perhaps an adjective is not even neccesary. Is it possibly better just to say "RT is described as..."? Volunteer Marek has made a thoughtful, policy based argument for the lede. The argument against it so far seems weak. Keeping key information that is heavily ref'd and RS out of the lede is a non-starter. Capitalismojo (talk) 16:48, 30 March 2014 (UTC)

Firstly, we're talking about adverbs, not adjectives. Secondly, no, adverbs 'widely', 'commonly', 'frequently', 'repeatedly', and 'often' do not adequately describe 23% of something within the total (by the way it's 9 out of 38, not 9 out of 28). Thirdly, Volunteer Marek hasn't suggested anything, much less anything thoughtful; he went ahead and included his personal POV in the lede opinion summary through selective highlighting of one specific characterization found among the opinions in the article that's reflected in only 23% of the total opinions in the same article while completely ignoring/omitting/excluding characterizations from the remaining 77% of opinions. He then came here on 'Talk', pronouncing this characterization that fits his personal POV as "widely supported fact", but unfortunately for him and for you --- 23% does not equate to being used in connection with "widely".Zvonko (talk) 18:51, 30 March 2014 (UTC)

That sentence sticks of negative POV to high heaven, and the article was quite NPOV before. off-course RT has a russian bias. they never deny it. western cooperate media are the biggest propaganda machines ever. was there even 1 voice of dissent invading Iraq? invading Afghanistan? " "war on terror" "? One editor here encapsulates the problem : "how dare RT question the truth our media and government have been feeding me" can you even hear yourself?do you know how brainwashed you sound? LarryTheShark (talk) 18:15, 30 March 2014 (UTC)

The statement that said it has been accused of propaganda was better before. But since someone marked it with, what when where. Well that got answered. - Sidelight12 ^Talk 19:16, 30 March 2014 (UTC)

So what? Add a propaganda statement to a CNN article provided it is properly sourced, I do not mind.--Ymblanter (talk) 19:19, 30 March 2014 (UTC)

Look lots of sources state it's a "propaganda tool" or something similar. Whether that's "widely" or "lots" doesn't matter - the choice of the adverb or adjective (that also doesn't matter) is open, as long as it reflects the underlying idea. Second, one's opinions about CNN or "western corporate" media also doesn't matter (and actually... nevermind). If you can go out there and find numerous *reliable* sources which make that claim, then as Ymblanter said, go ahead and put it in the relevant articles. But that has nothing to do with this one. Third, if you can find reliable sources which explicitly deny the claim that RT is a propaganda tool, those can be included as well. But in the absence of any of that, leave well sourced and relevant text alone and don't remove simply because you don't like it.Volunteer Marek (talk) 21:13, 30 March 2014 (UTC)

For the millionth time, you're not addressing the issue here because you know you're in violation of guidelines. Your "summary" doesn't properly summarize the opinions in the article. You're pushing your own personal POV by selectively synthesizing a viewpoint based on a characterization found in 23% of the opinions.Zvonko (talk) 08:03, 31 March 2014 (UTC)

Also, I don't even know where this "only 9 out of 38" numbers got pulled out of. Even a cursory glance at the ref section strongly suggests that it's way more than 9 sources which note propagandistic aspects with RT's coverage.Volunteer Marek (talk) 21:21, 30 March 2014 (UTC)

It is not, count them. Before you added your two sources that haven't yet been explained in the article there were 36 individuals/organizations whose opinions have been included in the article. 7 of them use the characterization "propaganda".Zvonko (talk) 08:03, 31 March 2014 (UTC)

The inclusion of references claiming that RT is propaganda tool in the lead is wrong in my view. Why because it gives undue weight to the particular opinions of Western media and scholars that have themselves not been scrutinized for their political positions/allegiances. Secondly its inclusion in the lead is a recentism. Sietecolores (talk) 05:47, 31 March 2014 (UTC)

Nope, and not really. Volunteer Marek (talk) 07:38, 31 March 2014 (UTC)

Here are my suggestions to resolve the matter:

• First of all, right now ,the article should have the tag :

• As explained by Zvonko in his "1/4 is 1/4" paragraph, the sentence should be totally erased for WP:UNDUE. At the very very minimum it should be defined to reflect that policy:

Some critics have repeatedly referred to the network as a propaganda outlet and has been described as an "extension of... Putin's ... confrontational foreign policy".[9] That criticism of the network's nature as a propaganda tool increased during the coverage of the 2014 Crimean crisis.[10][11]

• Reference 9, is an article by Julia_Ioffe who has an extremely negative Political bias on anything "Russian Federation", and i mean anything, including Hockey . and should not be used as an NPOV source even if it was published in the Columbia Journalism Review.
• If the paragraph will remain (with my 2 word edit), a response from RT should be added at the end:

Some critics has been repeatedly referred to the network as a propaganda outlet and has been described as an "extension of... Putin's ... confrontational foreign policy".[9] The criticism of the network's nature as a propaganda tool increased during the coverage of the 2014 Crimean crisis.[10][11] RT responded to the accusations of Propaganda, stating "The charges of propaganda tend to pop up every time a news outlet, particularly RT, dares to show the side of events that does not fit the mainstream narrative, regardless of the realities on the ground. This happened in Georgia, this is happening in Ukraine".[ 1 ] At the same time, the network relishes in its reputation as propaganda "we put the fact that this is propaganda right out front. We're putting out the truth that no one else wants to say. "Truth is the best propaganda"."[ 2 ] LarryTheShark (talk) 09:41, 31 March 2014 (UTC)

An SPA with zero edits outside of this page and their user page.--Ymblanter (talk) 10:06, 31 March 2014 (UTC)

Attacking the messenger and not the message is indicative of the weakness of your arguments. Furthermore, your unsubstantiated judgment that i am a SPA is in violation of WP:NPA.

I declare that i have no ties of any kind to RT. I have been editing as an IP editor in wikipedia quite a while. I registered to make it more easy for me (my ISP provider has a dynamic IP address) in long talk discussions.

Actually come to think of it, you are Russian (probably opposition) and therefor have a conflict of interest and inherit bias on this subject. (please add that little text under your nick). Thank you LarryTheShark (talk) 10:29, 31 March 2014 (UTC)

You know, for someone who starts their comment with complaints about "attacking the messenger" you sure do switch to actual attacks - haphazardly inferring a person's beliefs, positions and potential bias based solely on their presumed ethnicity. Now. Actually, given that you are a brand new account who pops into here and jumps right into the middle of a contentious discussion and starts talking about "undue tags", well, sorry but that just screams SOCKPUPPET! Don't insult our intelligence, that's all that Ymblanter appears to be saying. Assigning beliefs and making presumptions about editors based on their ethnicity? Well, that's another matter entirely.Volunteer Marek (talk) 23:54, 31 March 2014 (UTC)

I noted that because at some point RfC would be closed, and then it is good to know for the closed that you have less than 10 edits. It is a pretty standard practice. You are welcome to add to my posts that I have 43K edits and was elected administrator with over 100 votes, I am fine with that. Concerning your message, the formulations can be discussed (and probably will be discussed when the article gets to DRN at some point), but your whole argument is based on "1/4" Zvonko's argument which is plain invalid.--Ymblanter (talk) 10:35, 31 March 2014 (UTC)

BTW I do not have any conflict of interests with respect to this article. I do not live in Russia and I am not involved (and never been to) any political activity.--Ymblanter (talk) 10:37, 31 March 2014 (UTC)

I take my words back, some what, because it still appears, to non regular wikipedia editors like a an intentional delegitimization tactic. I thought SPA means "special interest.. something". i had to search myself until i found WP:SPA. i recommend you hyper-link to it the next time you use it with a new registered editor to avoid confusion. Now let's get back to the issue at hand LarryTheShark (talk) 11:08, 31 March 2014 (UTC)

Agree with the proposal of LarryTheShark. Wikipedians should assume good faith, a low number of edits can't by no means de-legitimize an user, it absurd. Lets keep to discuss LarryTheShark's proposal. Sietecolores (talk) 16:35, 31 March 2014 (UTC)

The problem is that I still have to see a policy based argument why the sentence should not be in the lede. The 7/36 argument is invalid for the reasons which were already explained: The other 29 refs do not say there is no propaganda, they just do not mention it. The recentism argument can not be applied to the article on a channel founded in 2005 (and most of the propaganda statements are from before 2014). Concerning the formulation of the sentence - I am open to amending it, but saying that the channel is critized by those who criticize it sounds to me like tautology. Saying that it is criticized only in the US is clearly incorrect.--Ymblanter (talk) 18:03, 31 March 2014 (UTC)

Agree. There is more than ample RS refs supporting that. Capitalismojo (talk) 18:47, 31 March 2014 (UTC)

We can move "and has been described as an "extension of... Putin's ... confrontational foreign policy".[9] The criticism of the network's nature as a propaganda tool increased during the coverage of the 2014 Crimean crisis.[10][11]" from the lead, and reword it. The quote is correct with 1 minor omission [Vladimir] that didn't change the meaning, however using ... makes it appear as if there is a misquote, when there isn't. The second ... wasn't needed. The second sentence uses Wikipedia's voice, and not of the criticizers'.

One sentence is enough. 7/36 sources including mentions by 20 different individuals or sources, or even less is enough for minor inclusion in a lead. Or look at it as 1/5 of sources saying this is enough to make less than 1/5 of the lead due. The fact that a lot of sources say it, make it due for inclusion in the lead. If anyone wants to insert a counterclaim that is said by reliable sources without using synthesis, go ahead. Even if there are 3 different reliable sources that say the same thing for a rebuttal, it may be able to go in the lead. - Sidelight12 ^Talk 19:01, 31 March 2014 (UTC)

Congratulations to LarrytheShark, you might be very new, but you’re the first person from the “I don’t like it” camp to get onboard with the reformulation idea! It is surely the only reasonable way forward. Although I disagree with your interpretation of the Ioffe hockey article and feel obliged to point out that your proposed text doesn’t refute the propaganda claim even slightly. I feel strongly that the criticism should be mentioned in the lead but it seems fair to me that it should be balanced with a response of some kind. --Trappedinburnley (talk) 20:10, 31 March 2014 (UTC)

Every news channel has been accused of propaganda. Most U.S. news sources for example promoted the U.S. governments false arguments for the war in Iraq. In order to give prominence to them, it is important to find a secondary source that explains the prevalence of the view. Citing the opinions of two journalists to say it has "has been repeatedly referred to as" is OR. Get a source that makes that judgment. TFD (talk) 23:11, 31 March 2014 (UTC)

It's undoubtedly true that every news channel has been accused of propaganda by someone at some point. What matters is whether a particular news channel has been accused of propaganda by multiple reliable sources which discuss the issue at length. The underlined part is NOT true for many news channels. But it is true for this one.Volunteer Marek (talk) 23:49, 31 March 2014 (UTC)

I agree with TFD. This needs a secondary source. Multiple primary sources are anecdotal evidence. NinjaRobotPirate (talk) 00:16, 1 April 2014 (UTC)

This *has* secondary sources. Multiple ones. These are not primary sources. This is not anecdotal evidence - one or two sources. This is many many sources, and many many more can be easily added.Volunteer Marek (talk) 01:17, 1 April 2014 (UTC)

Sources

Sources which directly mention the propaganda aspect:

• Bloomberg Businessweek
• International Business Times
• Voice of America
• The Guardian
• Standpoint magazine
• Al Jazeera
• Columbia Journalism Review
• Slate
• Southern Poverty Law Center
• Der Spiegel
• Lieberman as quoted by Haaretz
• The Algemeiner
• A different article from The Algemeiner
• The Interpreter Magazine (points out that one of RT's spokesman is a straight up neo-Nazi
• Accuracy in Media

Sources behind a paywall, but pretty much call it propaganda:

• Independent (check this one - Highbeam)

Sources which don't call it "propaganda" directly but which compare it as such to Soviet era propaganda

• New Republic

That's almost EVERY single source in the criticism section. And that's 17, not 9. I have no idea where this "38" number was pulled out of, as a number of total sources in the section, but it's clearly "widely reported".

Note also that these represent a very wide spectrum of sources. I mean, the SPLC is in there.

Here's some more sources, just doing a quick ten second search, which say it's a propaganda tool but which are not currently in the article:

• Liberty voice
• Huffington Post (reporting on coverage of others)
• The Intercept
• USA Today
• National Post
• Transitions Online

and more is easy to find.

In fact, given how widely this fact is covered in reliable sources, this issue should be non-controversial, and this whole discussion is really a big waste of time due to a couple of user's WP:IDONTLIKEIT. Volunteer Marek (talk) 02:26, 1 April 2014 (UTC)

• Primary source: "This is a propaganda source."
• Secondary source: "The following journalists have labeled TalkRT a propaganda piece, and here's analysis on the controversy."

Find a secondary source that identifies the controversy and analyzes it. Individual journalists that label it a propaganda source are primary sources. I didn't bother to read through the entirety of every source you listed, but several of them were obvious primary sources for this claim. The Slate article at least referenced a controversy on YouTube, but that's not so useful when discussing international politics. Personally, I'm only here because LegoBot invited me, and I couldn't care less whether it's labeled propaganda or not. I'm only concerned with Wikipedia policies. NinjaRobotPirate (talk) 02:49, 1 April 2014 (UTC)

Nope, primary sources are sources which are close to the event - like the Russian government document leaked by Anonymous which specifically outlines how the propaganda should be conducted (actually, that should be in here somewhere). That'd be a primary source. Anyway, several of the sources above do say something like "RT TV has been labeled as a propaganda tool by so-and-so and by so-and-so". So it qualifies even under this second definition.

This is the standard way of using news reports and magazine reports for this kind of information.Volunteer Marek (talk) 04:49, 1 April 2014 (UTC)

Again, you are drawing a conclusion based on your original research. You search for sources that say it is propaganda. If you follow the OR path, a better way would be to identify top media people and see what they say. Do Anderson Cooper and Shep Smith call it propaganda? Why or why not? But since this is a tertiary source, you need to find secondary sources that explain what the media says, not primary sources where various writers say it is propaganda. An expression of opinion btw is a primary source for the opinion expressed. A source that comments on the opinion is a secondary source.

Incidentally, al Jazeera's "Listening Post" which you quote accuses both Western and Russian media of propaganda. Are you now going to add the moniker to articles about Western media?

TFD (talk) 08:11, 1 April 2014 (UTC)

No, I am not. You've been around Wikipedia long enough, you know what original research is, so why are you pretending it's something else? The sources say it's "propaganda". I am reporting what the sources say. You seem to think argue (I doubt you actually "think" this) that finding sources is itself "original research" because, you know, looking for sources is a type of research. This is of course absurd. If this was the standard on Wikipedia, nothing cold be sourced. Again, stop pretending. "Original research" would be if I made up something or drew some conclusions on my own based on, say, that leaked Anonymous instruction sheet that Russian government send out (*that* is a primary source). And please stop with the wikilawyering of the definition of secondary sources. These plainly satisfy the requirements. Sources like these are used throughout Wikipedia articles in exactly this way.Volunteer Marek (talk) 08:23, 1 April 2014 (UTC)

BTW, I don't see why Anderson Cooper's opinion should reign supreme here (hell, you just invented that standard out of thin air), or why he should even have one (has he even said anything about RT?), but for what it's worth, the first interview that Liz Wahl gave after quitting RT because ... it's a propaganda tool, was *with* Anderson Cooper.Volunteer Marek (talk) 08:35, 1 April 2014 (UTC)

[2]- there are billions of RS on its propaganda tool-ness, surely? I don't get the TFD problem with this.Sayerslle (talk) 08:51, 1 April 2014 (UTC)

That's a much better source. It actually identifies a controversy instead of stating an individual opinion. By policy, editorials are primary sources. See WP:PRIMARY for details on that. Stringing together multiple primary sources does not allow you to draw your own conclusions; that's synthesis. I see this often in film articles, where someone will say that a film had a negative critical reception, then list three or four reviews by individual critics, none of whom directly discuss the film's wider reception. These wider, analytic articles, such as The Guardian source above, are the ones you need to find. NinjaRobotPirate (talk) 10:30, 1 April 2014 (UTC)

The refs are not editorials or opinion pieces. Almost all are straight reporting pieces by reliable mainstream world media sources. These are Wikipedia's ordinary standard references and not primary sources, by definition. In fact only the Standpoint magazine (UK) article appears to be a column. There are two ref'd articles from non-profits, those aren't opinion pieces either. Capitalismojo (talk) 13:14, 1 April 2014 (UTC)

I’d just like to remind people that this is a discussion on the content of the lead. What description of the criticism that appears frequently in the article is appropriate for the lead?--Trappedinburnley (talk) 12:19, 1 April 2014 (UTC)

List of published various descriptions depicting RT

Regarding the Lead, and argument here, its all a question of wording, and which to chose. I think this covers the full spectrum of possibilities:

• RT's official statement: "RT provides an alternative perspective on major global events, and acquaints international audience with the Russian viewpoint". (Source)
• Vladimir Putin - "Certainly the channel is funded by the government, so it cannot help but reflect the Russian government’s official position on the events in our country and in the rest of the world one way or another. But I’d like to underline again that we never intended this channel, RT, as any kind of apologetics for the Russian political line, whether domestic or foreign." (Source)
• Peter Lavelle (Prominent RT show host) - "“No one is telling me what to say,” said Peter Lavelle, the effusive host of “In Context.” Nevertheless, he said, the channel does take certain views. “ Part of our mission is public relations,” " (Source)
• Hilary Clinton - "... the Russians have opened up an English language network. I've seen it in a couple of countries and it's quite instructive." (Source)
• Kathryn Stoner-Weiss, deputy director of the Center on Democracy, Development and the Rule of Law at Stanford University - “It’s clearly a pro-Russian perspective; that’s the purpose of Russia Today,” she says. “Sometimes, a pro-Russia perspective involves an anti-somebody-else perspective—and we’re the most useful target at certain times.” (Source)
• Glenn Greenwald - "That that network has a strong pro-Russian bias is unquestionably true" (Source)
• Daily Express (UK) - "Russia Today, or RT, is the Kremlin’s answer to the BBC World Service. Seen as an arm of soft foreign policy, it is funded by the Russia government, in the same way the BBC World Service was financed by the Foreign Office.""it has also been criticised as too pro-Kremlin" (Source)
• MSN - " Liz Wahl, quit the network live on the air over RT's pro-Putin bias" (Source)
• The Sydney Morning Herald - "Russia Today is widely perceived as the voice of the Kremlin" (Source)
• Utne Reader (US magazine) - "worldwide Russian TV network spreads a unique brand of anti-American propaganda" (Source)
• Business Insider - " Russia's Propaganda Channel Already Has A Map Showing Crimea As Part Of Russia" (Source) LarryTheShark (talk) 11:28, 2 April 2014 (UTC)

Funny, Hilary Clinton being snarky. What is the point of this list? What content do you want to add using these refs? Capitalismojo (talk) 12:32, 2 April 2014 (UTC)

The point, as I understand it is that stating or quoting sources (usually Western) that says RT is propaganda tool gives that viewpoint undue weight (WP:UNDUE) given that there are much more view points that that. An aggravant is that these are personal/editorial opinions and not part of a more deep non-partisan analysis. I still consider th whole issue at stake here is WP:RECENTISM, RT actually existed way before the Crimean crisis. Sietecolores (talk) 15:13, 2 April 2014 (UTC)

No. There's no UNDUE problem here as we're not talking about a source or two, but multiple, reliable, respectable sources. It's a very common description of the subject of this article and in fact *NOT* including it, in the lede or the body, would be POV. And you can call it "personal/editorial opinions" or we can call it "non-partisan analysis". And the description of RT as a propaganda tool predates the Crimean crisis and will likely still be accurate after it's over. So recentism isn't an issue either.Volunteer Marek (talk) 15:27, 2 April 2014 (UTC)

(ec) The propaganda accusation also appeared way before the Crimean crisis.--Ymblanter (talk) 15:28, 2 April 2014 (UTC)

As I see it, in order for the Lead sentence to be NPOV, it should be something like this :

According to RT's mission statement "RT provides an alternative perspective on major global events, and acquaints international audience with the Russian viewpoint". Other sources have described RT from: "clearly having a pro-Russian perspective" or "a strong pro-Russian bias" to "the voice of the Kremlin" or "Russia's Propaganda Channel"LarryTheShark (talk) 16:12, 2 April 2014 (UTC)

The issue is not rs but weight. Virutally any source is rs for the opinions of its writer. Weight says, "Neutrality requires that each article or other page in the mainspace fairly represents all significant viewpoints that have been published by reliable sources, in proportion to the prominence of each viewpoint in the published, reliable sources." How do you determine the prominence?" Do you Google search "RT+propaganda" and count the results? Or do you use a secondary source that says something like "many informed sources consider RT propaganda." Only by establishing the prevalence of a view can weight be established. The al Jazeera article for example accuses both Western media and RT of propaganda. Yet Volunteer Marek chooses to add that info to the RT article but not articles about Western media. Obviously he thinks he is a better judge of weight than secondary sources.

Larry, saying that they want to present news from a Russian perspective is not the same thing as saying they falsify facts in order to make Russia look better. All news media present news from a perspective. I notice that stories about the UK are more frequent in The Times than the New York Times.

TFD (talk) 16:31, 2 April 2014 (UTC)

I could get behind LarryTheShark’s proposed text or something similar. TFD I can’t find the Al Jazzera source you refer to but you’re not suggesting that an article about RT that includes a claim the propaganda appears in the western media would be appropriate for use anywhere except here and maybe here? Lying is only a part of propaganda, it’s about twisting the truth to fit a narrative of your choosing, the less lying involved the better it works. I find arguing that RT isn’t propaganda to be ridiculous, even RT don’t do that. To borrow from LarryTheShark’s earlier suggestion, check this out for wesel words:

"The charges of propaganda tend to pop up every time a news outlet, particularly RT, dares to show the side of events that does not fit the mainstream narrative, regardless of the realities on the ground. This happened in Georgia, this is happening in Ukraine". RT press office[3]

The obvious issue with Larry’s suggestion is how to decide which quotes make it into the statement.--Trappedinburnley (talk)

I specifically used 4 examples. 2 which appear moderate and 2 which are appear extreme/loaded. all 4 should be used , and in that order to keep the article NPOV.LarryTheShark (talk) 22:18, 2 April 2014 (UTC)