Talk:Circassians

Is "Adyghe" the correct term in English?

As I understand adyghe (self designation), circassians (in W. Europe), cherkess (in Russia] is a common name for many ethnicities: Abadzekhs, Besleneys, Bjedughs, Egerikhuays, Temirgoys, Khamyshs, Natukhays (Natkhuagias), Shapsughs, Ubykhs. In imperial Russia it was a common name for all these tribes. Only in soviet Russia appeared Adyghe (in Adygeya) and Cherkess (in Karachay-Cherkessia). It was a practise in 1930-ies in Soviet Union rename ethnicities acording to self designation: Udmurts instead of Votyaki, Komi instead of Zyryane. Do we have same confusion with Adyghe? Is Adyghe example of soviet's created ethnicity? Or it was divide et empera policy? --82.135.217.55 19:02, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

You forgot the largest group, Kabardins. The word "Cherkes"/"chirkassians" is still in common use in Russia (and possibly Europe). And yes it was more of a "divide and conquer" thing; the Russian designations of "Adygetsi/Адыгейцы" (in Adygea) and "Cherkes" (in Karachay-Cherkessia) have to do with administrative partitioning, not ethnicity. As far as ethnicity, what you wrote in the beginning is correct -- Adyghe = Cherkes, further subdivided into a dozen or so tribes; many of them live in other places in Caucausus/Russian South such as Krasnodar & Stavropol regions, which are part of their historical homeland as much as Adygea, etc. --Let 07:33, 23 September 2006 (UTC)

Circassian ethnic cleansing

Hey, I did an article about it. Everyone's welcome to add something to or correct the article, incorporate it into existing ones, and also to protect it from overzealous Russian nationalistic editor(s). Thanks! --HanzoHattori 23:01, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

Foster parents

"Familial ties were not strongly encouraged; parents fostered their children to other adults [...]" -- actually I think only the boys were given away, the idea was to aquire pseudo-familial ties to other families, who could be called upon in case of trouble; family and "foster" family ties were very important and thus "encouraged". I'll correct this as soon as I dig up some references. Let 07:49, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

Adyghe as mercenaries

Article claims that "The Adyghe first emerged as a coherent entity somewhere around the tenth century A.D" yet it's also said that they served in the armies of Rome even though the last Roman emperor was deposed in 476. Also I've never heard of Circassian auxiliary forces under any Persian dynasty.

For Rome read Eastern Roman (i.e. Byzantine) Empire Geoff Powers (talk) 11:37, 13 November 2010 (UTC)

"related groups" info removed from infobox

For dedicated editors of this page: The "Related Groups" info was removed from all {{Infobox Ethnic group}} infoboxes. Comments may be left on the Ethnic groups talk page. Ling.Nut 23:22, 18 May 2007 (UTC)

Inclusion in WP:ISRAEL

As I understand it, there are only Adyghe in two villages in Israel. Not to snuff them out of the big picture, but isn't that a little insignificant? Octane ^{[improve me]} 19.09.07 2248 (UTC)

Past Tense

Most of this article, such as the culture section, is written in the past tense. I feel like this implies that as a people, they dont exist anymore, but the info box seems to assert they do. I dont know anything about the topic, so I wont chang it myself, but I feel like it should be changed to show that yes, the Adyghe people still have a culture in the present tense. --DerRichter (talk) 21:19, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

The first half of the culture section deals with the culture before the diaspora (see Muhajir (Caucasus)); certainly, there would be those who would keep up traditions, but their distinctness as a people, in general, is probably more difficult nowadays to see than earlier. Octane ^{[improve me]} 02.02.08 2124 (UTC)

Thanks for the response. --DerRichter (talk) 00:00, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

Genetics

Ha, i just have the laugh of my life, what did they said about our people ? from Central/South Asian, and European ? thats not what my own lineage tells me , i dont need some jewish people form new york to tell me where my "lineage" is from thank you very much , the source is not found 404 , nice try new york ! Wikipedia is a lie, but thank to people like me who at least are from real Adygeya , you will know something else. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Sasukowazokovo (talk • contribs)

I have updated the citation to point to the journal article the link referred to. If you have published information indicating the genetics of your lineage is different, feel free to discuss it here. Please note, however, that your discussions should be confined to the content of the article, not your beliefs about "Jewish people from New York." --TeaDrinker (talk) 03:50, 13 December 2008 (UTC)

Lineage? We are not talking about dogs , are we? I have more in common with algerians than with south asians.At that point you also can say that europeans have african lineage , this is the difference .Give some facts and more information about the study , but no! this is "wikipedia" ,here everyone is smartass and with 3 words everything is said ! Im not offended or anything , just the lack of interest in things amaze me . Adygeya have any relation with central,south ,european no in language not even in culture.Our dear "scientists" from new york maybe just pick some mixed adugheyes since the armenian and georgian populations is growing in caucasus like any other. This is not information , its just bullshit. --User:Sasukowazokovo (talk) 12:13 , 14 December 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for the clarification. I used the term lineage since that is the term you used and is used in the article, but I certainly mean no offense. Your point is well taken, that genetic relatedness does not imply cultural affiliation. The anthropological literature is replete with instances demonstrating precisely that. The inclusion of genetic information, I think, is set apart and provides only some information about a group; I don't think the phrasing in the article implies any level of cultural affiliation. Hope this helps, --TeaDrinker (talk) 00:07, 14 December 2008 (UTC)

Please be informed this information is a wrong information, The Adyghe are pure Europeans and because of that the researchers used them representing Europe; however, the connection between the Adyghe and Central Asia is due to the fact that a large groups Adyghe immigrated from the north caucasus to Anatolia from thousands of years and not the opposite, not because the Adyghe are mixed, but because the Anatolians have a European (Adyghe) bloods, thank you in advance. -take scientific information with the historical one- and you can know the truth.... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 94.249.5.153 (talk) 14:53, 20 October 2009 (UTC)

The genetics text as it is does not make a tremendous amount of sense. They surely are from somewhere? And the race concept in genetics is usually treated with great care; also the genetics-language relationship is a difficult one to study. I can not access to the study in the citation from here, but I think this section should be changed a bit, to actually give some real information. Leirus (talk) 16:37, 6 January 2011 (UTC)

Circassians=Adyghe

The article about Circassians refers to the same people. Circassians=Adyghe. Maybe the articles should be joined. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 188.103.253.124 (talk) 13:05, 5 June 2010 (UTC)

I don't think this article should be joined with the Adyghe people. My great grandfather was Kabardin, I am German and don't know much about Kabardin. If it would be under the Adyghe people I would not have any way to find out about the Kabardin and their heritage. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.110.208.93 (talk) 02:54, 5 January 2014 (UTC)

Aldamad Ahmet Namee Shapsug - The President of the Syrian State from 1926-1928

I cant find this in the source given, I cant find any source on the internet for this. --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 11:32, 21 December 2010 (UTC)

I agree. I will therefore remove his name from the list. If anyone could provide a good reliable source/s that would prove us wrong - please do so. TheCuriousGnome (talk) 18:44, 21 December 2010 (UTC)

Removal of links to foreign language Wiki articles on same subject

On May 11, 2011, for the second time in recent weeks (previous occasion was April 1), the links from this article (and vice versa) to some 16 foreign language articles on the Adyghe (Circassian) people were removed, presumably because the foreign langiage articles used the term Circassian, rather than Adyghe. However, so far as I have been able to determine, the articles in question relate to exactly the same subject as this article. The fact that English Wikipedia has chosen to use (the debatably more exact) term "Adyghe people", as opposed to the more popularly-understood term "Circassians" (or a variation thereof), used for many of the foreign language Wikipedia articles, should in no way prevent Users being able to link directly from this article to the appropraite foreign language article covering the same subject. The links should be reinstated. Davshul (talk) 08:48, 26 May 2011 (UTC)

picture of the fall of Damascus

The caption of the picture of the fall of Damascus has "A car carrying the Free French commanders, General Georges Catroux and Major-General Paul Louis Le Gentilhomme, enters the city. They are escorted by Vichy French Circassian cavalry." The Free French fought on the side of the allies against the Vichy regime, and I have never heard of victorious officers being 'escorted' by the enemy. Is there another way to word this to make sense to a total layman like me? --Richardson mcphillips (talk) 00:40, 9 June 2011 (UTC)

File:Cherkess4.jpg Nominated for Deletion

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File:Circassian female ceremonial dress.jpg Nominated for Deletion

An image used in this article, File:Circassian female ceremonial dress.jpg, has been nominated for deletion at Wikimedia Commons in the following category: Deletion requests March 2012 What should I do? Don't panic; a discussion will now take place over on Commons about whether to remove the file. This gives you an opportunity to contest the deletion, although please review Commons guidelines before doing so. If the image is non-free then you may need to upload it to Wikipedia (Commons does not allow fair use) If the image isn't freely licensed and there is no fair use rationale then it cannot be uploaded or used. To take part in any discussion, or to review a more detailed deletion rationale please visit the relevant image page (File:Circassian female ceremonial dress.jpg) This is Bot placed notification, another user has nominated/tagged the image --CommonsNotificationBot (talk) 15:35, 20 March 2012 (UTC)

Turkey 140,000 Circassians?

It's not possible. First of all Turkey is knows as the place with the most Circassians in the world, and about 90 percent of the Circassian were deported to Turkey. The reference source is absolutely wrong. And according to this and this there should be over 2 million Circassians in Turkey.--Adamsa123 (talk) 18:39, 11 September 2012 (UTC)

See Talk:Turkey#Percentages of ethnic groups in Turkey for a discussion of how this manipulatively this editor used the source, reverted. Lumialover2 (talk) 21:45, 23 September 2012 (UTC)

When the population below the age of 18 is added to the findings of ethnic identity distribution among adults in Turkey by subjects' responses, the population of Arabs is calculated as 550.000. The same calculation reveals that the numbers of immigrants may be 310.000, Laz 220.000, those of Caucassian origin (Circassian, Chechnian and Georgian) 210.000 and Roma people 30.000.

What manipulation were you talking about again? --Mttll (talk) 10:38, 26 September 2012 (UTC)

Your 140,000 claim was from a table in the study that, as we've already discussed, must not be used for these purposes since it talks about something different. Lumialover2 (talk) 11:02, 26 September 2012 (UTC)

Read what I last quoted again. This is the final result (with population below 18 is in consideration) and not the "raw data" as you are fond of calling it that way. --Mttll (talk) 12:23, 26 September 2012 (UTC)

Response please? I will be restoring the figure in the infobox unless I receive a response in 2 days. --Mttll (talk) 04:54, 30 September 2012 (UTC)

I already told you. That source is simple wrong and as a prove I gave three sources. If you want a reliable source search for sources that discuss only about Circassians. --Adamsa123 (talk) 21:40, 3 October 2012 (UTC)

The source will not be wrong just because you say so. It's especially more reliable than this mere news article, because it's based on a fully verifiable extensive study on the demographics of Turkey. --Mttll (talk) 09:41, 4 October 2012 (UTC)

Like I said, if you really want a reliable source search for sources that discuss only about Circassians. It's true that it is not wrong because I said so, but it's a fact that the country with the most Circassian in it is Turkey. If you would have said there at least one million Circassians in Turkey that would make sense, but only 140,000?--Adamsa123 (talk) 11:45, 4 October 2012 (UTC)

According to the survey that study is based on, nearly 0.2% (about 140 thousand people) in Turkey identify as Circassian, while 0.1% (about 70 thousands) speak Circassian as mother tongue. You have to consider some factors like intermarriage and assimilation. Personally, I don't believe the number of Circassians in Turkey would approach to a million unless people who are of partial Circassian descent are included. Though in that case, a single person can descend from several different ethnic groups, that's why such surveys as well as national censuses on this matter are based on self-identification. Anyway, the source is legitimate, so I don't see why it shouldn't be be included in the infobox at least along with the current ones. --Mttll (talk) 10:25, 5 October 2012 (UTC)

What you mean you don't believe the number of Circassians in Turkey would approach to a million. Accordion to the source in the article there are at least 6 million Circassians in the world. 700,000 in Russian, 150,000 In Syria, 100,000 in Jordan, 40,000 In Germany, etc. So where are the other 4 Million Circassians live?. About 90% of the Circassians were deported to Turkey by the Russians a century ago. You can't ignore all those facts.--Adamsa123 (talk) 10:56, 5 October 2012 (UTC)

That source obviously reached the total figure by adding up what they think are the number of Circassians in different countries. So we are not supposed to take the total figure as an a priori fact and distribute it to different countries. And actually, you are right that Circassians were deported in the 19th century. That may have some relevance here. Let's take a look at a fact in the 20th century:

According to 1965 official nation-wide census in Turkey; out of 31,009,934 (total population), 58,339 (0.18%) spoke Circassian as mother tongue, while 4,563 (0.01%) spoke Abaza as mother tongue. --Mttll (talk) 12:10, 5 October 2012 (UTC)

Well if you still planning to put that source again in the article, at least please don't remove the 2 million and its sources from the list.--Adamsa123 (talk) 12:41, 5 October 2012 (UTC)

They were present in my last version. For the record, I consider we have reached a consensus. If I'm wrong, please let me know. --Mttll (talk) 14:18, 5 October 2012 (UTC)

Most of the Circassians in Turkey doesn't count as Circassian. They count as Turks. The Turks don't recognize most of them as a separated ethnic group, and like I said before there is no way there are only 140,000 Circassians in Turkey. About 90% of the Circassians were deported from Caucasus to Turkey and most of them stayed there.--Adamʂa123 (talk) 20:17, 12 March 2013 (UTC)

They count as whatever they identify as- that's how ethnicity works, by self-identification (within reason). If they identify as Circassians, than they can count as such. --Yalens (talk) 17:14, 23 March 2013 (UTC)

I think 140,000 Circassians is ridiculously low (was largely ridiculed and discredit by most Circassian organizations in Turkey) even when taking to account massive amount of Turkification. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Nesij (talk • contribs) 00:19, 3 May 2013 (UTC)

Neopaganism as minority religion

Although I know some people probably don't like this fact for various reasons, according to recent surveys (), neo-pagans constitute a considerable portion of Circassian areas: 12% in Karachay-Cherkessia and 3% in Kabardino-Balkaria. The one reason I haven't put this on the page yet is because it isn't clear yet to me whether a substantial amount of the pagans are Circassians or if they're primarily Karachay/Balkars (does anyone have the percentages by ethnicity?), though other sources have indeed referred to the existence of "traditional religion followers" among Circassian populations...--Yalens (talk) 15:07, 19 February 2013 (UTC)

I've decided to just go ahead and add a small section, on the grounds that no matter how marginal or non-marginal the phenomenon is among Circassians (we dont' know if its the Karachay-Balkars or the Circassians mainly or both), the existence of Circassian pagan revivals is documented. --Yalens (talk) 14:45, 7 April 2013 (UTC)

carpets/mats

This section was originally about mats woven from grass (put in December 2010, unreferenced); it's since been changed to carpets, which are not the same thing, though grass is still mentioned. The problem is, supposedly the grass used for "thousands of years" is pampas grass, which as the name suggests is native to South America, and was only introduced to Europe in the 1800's not long before the Circassian diaspora. Also, there seems to be very little on Circassian rugs or mats; the only references or images that come up on a web search are here. So it does seem to be part of the culture, but widely noted? Hmm... KarlM (talk) 06:56, 8 September 2013 (UTC)

Adyghe in more languages

I will add their name in Russian and Persian as well, as I believe both Russians and various Iranian empires played a big role in shaping the most important scenery of Circassian history, aka in the 17th/18th century by the Russo-Persian and Caucasian wars.

Regards ~~ — Preceding unsigned comment added by LouisAragon (talk • contribs) 19:07, 17 January 2014 (UTC)

Requested move

The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Moved per consensus, to the more common name as used in the English language. bd2412 T 21:31, 24 February 2014 (UTC)

Adyghe people → Circassians – per WP:COMMONNAME Jaqeli (talk) 17:28, 5 February 2014 (UTC)

Survey

Feel free to state your position on the renaming proposal by beginning a new line in this section with *'''Support''' or *'''Oppose''', then sign your comment with ~~~~. Since polling is not a substitute for discussion, please explain your reasons, taking into account Wikipedia's policy on article titles.

• Oppose. "Circassian" can also refer to Kabardian. --JorisvS (talk) 17:58, 5 February 2014 (UTC)
  • Yes; and the Kabardians are within the scope of this article as noted in the introduction. —  AjaxSmack  02:40, 6 February 2014 (UTC)

• Support to reflect the article's scope and the common name of the group. The article is not just about the West Circassian Adyghe who speak the Adyghe language and originate from western Circassia including the area that is now Adygea (which is what "Adyghe" usually refers to in English). It is about all Circassians, inhabitants of Circassia who speak the Circassian (macro-)language and of whom a large number are part of the Circassian diaspora (even the Kabardians). The article's sources reflect this. —  AjaxSmack  02:40, 6 February 2014 (UTC)

• Comment. I think that having a stand-alone general article about Circassians is a good idea, but we do need separate ones about Adyghe and Kabardians as well. If there's a way to re-organize the current two articles (this one and Kabarday) into three, I'd support that. But only moving this article is simply shifting the problem into a different direction; I don't think I can support that.—Ëzhiki (Igels Hérissonovich Ïzhakoff-Amursky) • (yo?); February 6, 2014; 14:29 (UTC)
  • Having two articles might work (and some other interwikis do this; e.g., Russian: Адыги/Адыгейцы, Polish: Czerkiesi/Adygejczycy, Spanish: Cherquesos/Adigué). I would posit that a new article about the Adyghe should be created rather than a new one about the Circassians because most of the content of this article is about Circassians as a whole, hence my support of a move. a new "Adyghe" article could also be a DABCONCEPT article. Also note that this section in the Russian article is not a bad summary of the current ethnonyms of the peoples involved. —  AjaxSmack  19:28, 6 February 2014 (UTC)
    • Yes, this is pretty much what I was trying to say. I have nothing against moving this article and creating a new one for Adyghe; it's moving this article and not creating a new one for Adyghe at the same time I don't support :) In other words, if a new article is not going to be created, I see no point in moving this one.—Ëzhiki (Igels Hérissonovich Ïzhakoff-Amursky) • (yo?); February 6, 2014; 19:47 (UTC)
      • I created such a stub at User talk:AjaxSmack/Sandbox/Adyghes. Please review, comment, and/or edit. —  AjaxSmack  22:16, 14 February 2014 (UTC)

• Support tentatively As it is used here, Circassian is the better and more accepted term in the English language, with use dating back centuries. Adyghe seems pretentious, it is like trying to call Chinese people "Zhongguoren" in English... That being said, it doesn't make much of a difference to me. --Yalens (talk) 17:15, 6 February 2014 (UTC)

• Support per Ajax --Երևանցի ^talk 05:12, 7 February 2014 (UTC)

Discussion

Any additional comments:

Note the corresponding articles using some form of "Circassian":

• Circassia
• Circassian Majlis
• Circassian Day of Mourning
• Circassian nationalism
• Circassian language
• Circassian people
• Circassian diaspora
• Circassian beauties
• Circassian music
• Circassian coast
• Circassians in Iraq
• Circassians in Israel
• Circassians in Syria
• Circassians in Turkey
• Ethnic cleansing of Circassians
• Russian–Circassian War

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Boris Johnson as a Circasssian

Right, I've looked into this with a lot of detail and I can find no reliable link for this claim. The Guardian had an article about this disproving it as nothing more than family folklore, please remove him from the pictures of notable Circassians.

Boris Johnson as a Circasssian

Right, I've looked into this with a lot of detail and I can find no reliable link for this claim. The Guardian had an article about this disproving it as nothing more than family folklore, please remove him from the pictures of notable Circassians. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 109.151.160.18 (talk) 20:06, 21 April 2014 (UTC)

I demand as a Circassian!

My name is Andy Napso (Анди Нэпсэу) I am a true Circassian from my father and mother side and from my grandfather and grandmother side, I am from Kfar Kama Israel, Circassians in diaspora, my last name is Napso (prenounced Nepsow) from Shapsugh clan from black sea cosatal area. I DEMAND! as a Circassian to remove all those photos and names, those people are NOT CIRCASSIANS!! those are from different nations who got only a little Circassian blood from diaspora and slavery, the fact that you put them there is insulting the Circassians! The only true Circassians from those people are : Bibars Natkho, Sati Kazanova, Yuri Temirkanov and Al-Ashraf Qansuh al-Ghawri who was a Circassian MamlukeAndynapso (talk) 18:10, 23 April 2014 (UTC)