I am going to add one more comment - your disambiguation line states that this page is about citizens of the United States of America. That furthers my questioning of your use of the Census, and just the whole issue. Also, I have no response so I am hoping commenting again brings some discussion up. (Some anon) [[Special:Contributions/70.176.70.213|70.176.70.213]] ([[User talk:70.176.70.213|talk]]) 03:34, 31 July 2014 (UTC)
I am going to add one more comment - your disambiguation line states that this page is about citizens of the United States of America. That furthers my questioning of your use of the Census, and just the whole issue. Also, I have no response so I am hoping commenting again brings some discussion up. (Some anon) [[Special:Contributions/70.176.70.213|70.176.70.213]] ([[User talk:70.176.70.213|talk]]) 03:34, 31 July 2014 (UTC)
The problem is that the best thing we could do would be to have the 322 million number, then subtract 12 million for illegals to get 310 million. Though we would also probably have to subtract another 10 million for legal immigrants and have only 300 million. We really don't know how many illegals there are exactly because there aren't really any official numbers on it.[[Special:Contributions/96.241.72.141|96.241.72.141]] ([[User talk:96.241.72.141|talk]]) 13:22, 28 October 2014 (UTC)
== White American infobox ==
== White American infobox ==
Revision as of 13:22, 28 October 2014
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Article images
Americans
There seems to be a lot of discussion on this page about the various images in the gallery at the top of the page, and it might reasonably extend to the images in the various regional galleries lower in the article. Obviously, I think we would probably do well with as many relevant images as possible, possibly/probably including images of as broad a group of "Americans" as possible. Deciding who to include in both the regional image groupings lower in the page and the primary gallery at the top of the page might be best resolved by some systematic discussion of them. Personally, I'd like to have the images represent, between them, as many different groupings as possible, with, if possible, some sort of at least attempt to get some sort of proportional representation of the various groupings of Americans as possible. So, for instance, Martin Luther King Jr. could be used as one of the representatives of the groupings of Christians, religious people/ministers, African-Americans, Southerners, and peace activists. To my eyes, there does seem to be a significant maybe underrepresentation of what might be called academic scholarly people. So, for instance, reviewing the various Nobel Prize winners who might qualify might be one step in the right direction. Also, I suppose, we could look at the Dictionary of American Biography and what groupings are most significant in their index, and try to get representatives of as many of the bigger groupings in that sort as possible included.
Personally, I would like to see, maybe, somewhere down the road, an RfC or two regarding specific proposed inclusions in the various image galleries as possible, but getting together lists of possible candidates might be a good idea first. Any ideas? John Carter (talk) 19:39, 22 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]
The lower images were already discussed and decided on. What wasn't is the infobox, so there's been a lot of back and forth. As a compromise an American flag was put there. A crowd image of ordinary American men and women like the one to the right was also suggested, which may perhaps be the best solution. Middayexpress (talk) 16:55, 26 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Group shots themselves could be, to a degree, problematic, if people want to protest whatever it was the group assembled for as being "American" activity. FWIW, and these are obviously just my personal opinions:
People who have or have had federal holidays named in their honor would probably come first
People who have been potrayed on standard issue US currency, including postage stamps (not counting special commemorative stamps) might come in second
For any groups which do not have individuals included in the above groupings, I went through the 1999 DAB and made the following list: User:John Carter/Americans, indicating which groupings of individuals in at least that edition received at least one whole column, counted by whole columns, although, admittedly, in cases where the group spread on both sides of the same page and the like, I may have made some errors.
Clearly, I acknowledge that choosing the most prominent names first would be kind of top-heavy in favor of politicians of all stripes, and it would be a good idea to specifically ensure that other groupings are included as well. But the preliminary review might serve as at least a beginning, and I think it would be worthwhile to have the images selected based on some sort of comparatively objective criteria. John Carter (talk) 15:42, 27 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]
That bulleted criteria is both logical and objective; it's also gender neutral. Middayexpress (talk) 16:41, 28 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]
May I also suggest this list for consideration, if we are to continue to use multiple individual images of notable Americans.--RightCowLeftCoast (talk) 05:20, 16 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]
As a foreigner chipping in, lose the images, all of them and don't replace them with anything. You will never find an image or collection of images that does the subject justice, so stop trying. Just leave it blank, let the images in the article body do the work. - X201 (talk) 09:22, 29 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]
The addition of Lovecraft means that we have two portraits of notorious anti-Semites here. Lovecraft seems off; why Lovecraft and not Louisa May Alcott or Harriet Beecher Stowe or Maya Angelou? We have a second woman, but Meryl Streep is also an actress. MarkBernstein (talk) 11:14, 8 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]
You show that the total population of Americans is 308,745,538 in the Infobox. I understand that you are measuring using the Census, but then you state that the US has 318,201,000 Americans. Obviously, those numbers are off by 10 million. To make matters worse, your initial estimate does not include the number of Americans living abroad.
If you include the number living abroad, the correct number of Americans would be 321,264,045 - 322,305,738, assuming my math is right. Can you at least please explain the reasoning behind using the Census for 2010 when that only measures reporting American residents in the US, and not true "Americans" necessarily - illegal immigrants who do not self-identify as Americans, nor hold American citizenship.
I'd be interested in the recount aspect. Thanks. (A random anon who like wikis, but mostly Wikia) 24.165.1.243 (talk) 03:01, 12 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]
I am going to add one more comment - your disambiguation line states that this page is about citizens of the United States of America. That furthers my questioning of your use of the Census, and just the whole issue. Also, I have no response so I am hoping commenting again brings some discussion up. (Some anon) 70.176.70.213 (talk) 03:34, 31 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]
The problem is that the best thing we could do would be to have the 322 million number, then subtract 12 million for illegals to get 310 million. Though we would also probably have to subtract another 10 million for legal immigrants and have only 300 million. We really don't know how many illegals there are exactly because there aren't really any official numbers on it.96.241.72.141 (talk) 13:22, 28 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]
White American infobox
Why is there no German representative in the infobox? When was this removed? Why? The Dutch are represented twice.--RightCowLeftCoast (talk) 08:58, 8 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Infobox images
I see that the majority of edits have been changing the images in the lead section infobox. Rather than all these constant edits, let us come to a consensus on what should be in that infobox. Back when I use to be a more active editor, it was just the American flag, due to the civil but constant editing that we see today. What are the goals of the Wikipedians in all this editing? This article is not List of Americans, this is about all people of the United States. Rather than multiple single individuals, is it possible to have multiple pictures of group images, perhaps one per century, 18th, 19th, 20th, and 21st, each being representative of the subject of this article and the History of the United States?--RightCowLeftCoast (talk) 12:33, 15 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]
I think deleting it would be ideal. British people does not do this, and pictures are only displayed for smaller groups with in the country (ex. Scottish people, British Asians). Also the fact that not even half of the images are of women is pathetic. The people pictured are notable Americans, but they definitely aren't a representative group of American people. Considering how diverse the country is, the page as it is shouldn't really look like this. Secondplanet (talk) 23:24, 24 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]
OK, then. Perhaps we should take a poll to determine consensus as to whether there is support of removing the multiple individual portraits in the main info box of this article in the lead section.--RightCowLeftCoast (talk) 05:26, 29 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]
File:American mosaic.jpg The problem here is the number of images - 36 persons are overweight and the viewer is lost in images. The standard number must be 20-27 people (max.30). It is a mosaic of 25 significant and popular Americans, arranged chronologically by date of birth. 5x5 and 5x6 options are the best and are used in many articles as Dutch people, Bulgarians, Brazilians, Germans, Italians, Serbs, etc. Other variant is 27 images in 3x9 as in French people or 16 images in 4x4 as in Norwegians.--Stolichanin (talk) 10:10, 30 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Eh, it seems impossible to agree upon even 30 people to represent Americans. The picture you made certainly doesn't do a good job, at least in my opinion. Secondplanet (talk) 15:23, 30 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Poll
Please sign your name using four tildes (~~~~) under the position you support, and please add a (hopefully brief and well thought out) comment.
I would also like to point out that this article is about American people. Famous figures are hardly relavent to the article topic, yet some seem to see it as a criteria for image inclusion on this page. There isn't a reason popularity or notability should be considered if images are included. Secondplanet (talk) 03:26, 9 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]
RightCowLeftCoast (talk) 01:15, 3 September 2014 (UTC) Back when I was a more active editor on this article, I believed it sufficient to have images in the infobox of each of the Racial and ethnic group sections of the article. Each section can have an individual of each of the ethnicities within that racial group, as determined by consensus. Although I like the idea of group images for each of the different centuries that the United States has been around (18th, 19th, 20th, & 21st), failing that removing images from the primary infobox might stop these edit wars from re-occurring. However, I would like to remind the poll creator of WP:!VOTE; perhaps a notification to relevant Wikiprojects is in order to show consensus for or against removing the primary infobox individual portraits.[reply]
Omit: A perpetual source of dispute and contention. Some of the current choices are indefensible, most notably the inclusion of a contemporary Louisiana politician. Both 20th century scientists are known primarily for textbooks and television. Of the 36 in the current page, three are women. At first glance, none are Jewish, one is Asian-American -- and Inouye is otherwise arguably not among the 25 most significant senators in US history. Conservative politicians are grotesquely over-represented. We have lots of athletes and entertainers, but no winners of the Nobel Prize (besides Hemingway), no great physicians, no great engineers (besides Ford, and his anti-semitism rather taints him as a role model). This will never be settled will always be a source of tension and controversy, and is entirely extraneous to the project goals.MarkBernstein (talk) 20:52, 7 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Added more diverse people with more occupations. --TDKR Chicago 101 (talk) 21:45, 7 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]
No you didn't. There is still only four women on a image wall full of men. The concept isn't that difficult to understand. Secondplanet (talk) 03:20, 9 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Technically, he made it 5 women (I'm guessing that's still not enough), w/someone removing 1 of them. Blaylockjam10 (talk) 06:48, 11 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Keep infobox images
--TDKR Chicago 101 (talk) 02:13, 3 September 2014 (UTC) I go both ways to be honest. Although I think we should keep the images, but add a small note saying editors not to the change pictures. Plus if a mosaic is to be used for the future it should have these people in it. Then again most of the edits are on the images. --TDKR Chicago 101 (talk) 02:13, 3 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Blaylockjam10 (talk) 07:21, 4 September 2014 (UTC) I'd keep the images, but 1 suggestion I have is replacing Robin Williams w/an Asian American. It appears Williams was added after his death. He's notable, but I'm not sure he's notable enough. I don't see any Asian Americans in the infobox images. If there aren't any, 1 should be added. I agree w/adding a small note asking editors not to change the pictures.[reply]
The current 36 images are undue weight. Obviously their number must be reduced. I made a few adjustments and used people from the current image, but cut the number to 24, as you can see now. There are several problems with current images:
1. When the images are more than 30 the viewer is lost in the image.
2. We must to add at least one American, who was born after 1974 (under 40 years). One general rule in the images in infobox is to describe people from different generations and historical periods. Many nations have least one person, born after 1974. For example - Italians has Valentino Rossi, Serbs - Novak Djokovic, Bulgarians - Grigor Dimitrov and Nina Dobrev, Brazilians - Neymar and Adriana Lima, Norwegians - Lisa-Mari Moen Jünge, etc. The youngest American in current images is Michael Jordan, who is 51 years old (1963). I added Angelina Jolie, who was born in 1975. Actually, if we compared to the other articles, she is on the border (Grigor Dimitrov and Neymar are born in 1990s). But she is world popular as a whole. Other people who can to replaced or to be added in images - Michael Phelps, Beyonce, somebody who you want.
3. The majority of the faces must be Americans, who are popular outside of United States. For example - Merilyn Monroe and Hemingway are world famous, while Oprah Winfrey and Edgar Allan Poe are almost unknown for non-Americans (which do not minimize their significance). But it's not so important.--Stolichanin (talk) 19:11, 7 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]
@Stolichanin: I didn't have a problem getting lost in the 36 pictures. I get lost in part of your mosaic due to the entire 2nd row being black & white photos. Quite a few of the people you chose don't seem to follow your 3rd rule. I had to click the George Gershwin link to know who he is. Blaylockjam10 (talk) 01:51, 9 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]
I like the mosaic and support it being the official Americans image. Perhaps replacing Gershwin, who is a composer, with international known composers such as John Williams or Leonard Bernstein. Keep the other people. --TDKR Chicago 101 (talk) 22:20, 9 September 2014 (UTC)--TDKR Chicago 101 (talk) 22:20, 9 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Actually, George Gershwin is very well known outside the US. He is a far more important musician than John Williams and, importantly for this application, he is widely considered a quintessentially American composer. Outside the US, "American music" means, more than anything else, jazz. No one wrote more jazz standards than George Gershwin. MarkBernstein (talk) 15:29, 10 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]
The most important criteria for the list of Americans in the infobox should be diversity & identifiability to Americans. International renown is important, but not as important as those 2 criteria. Blaylockjam10 (talk) 06:48, 11 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Consuelo de Saint Exupéry
Consuelo de Saint Exupéry, subject who was re-added, is not an American, as defined in this article; therefore the subject falls outside of the article's scope. Subject lived in America but was never a U.S. Citizen. I am revert this, and if there is an objection, let us discuss why.--RightCowLeftCoast (talk) 21:57, 29 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Where are the women?
Can anyone give me a good reason why half of the photos in the info box are not women? Gandydancer (talk) 12:32, 11 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]
More suggestions: Jane Addams, Sacagawea, Billie Holiday, Margaret Fuller, Margaret Sanger, Rebecca Lee Crumpler, Emily Dickinson, Mary Cassatt, Julia Child, Maria Goeppert Mayer, MKF Fisher, Dorothy Parker, Grace Hopper, and Louisa May Alcott, . Many of the current choices seem arbitrary or worse, and clearly some are motivated by contemporary right-wing politics. Some other people who are missing: Tecumseh, Scott Joplin, Groucho Marx, Charlie Chaplin, Booker T. Washington, W.E.B.DuBois, Henry Ozawa Tanner, Louis Brandeis, Thurgood Marshall. Why Ronald Reagan and not Teddy Roosevelt? This seems to be a vexed territory; I'd support removing all these arbitrary image collections. MarkBernstein (talk) 23:38, 11 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]
I've added more women. I know that there are some people missing, but there's not enough room. Chaplin was English not American, check the article. Plus we also need more "recent" Americans (from the 60s, 70s, 80s, and 90s) rather than those who lived 100 years ago (1900s. --TDKR Chicago 101 (talk) 23:33, 13 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]
One argument about photos is that they should be distributed purely on notability. For instance if 80% of the most notable people were women then 80% of the photos should be women and vice versa. Gregkaye✍♪ 19:40, 7 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]
That could work if there was an objective way to determine who are the most notable people, and to compare notability. But there isn't. Also the argument doesn't fix the problem of under-representing minorities and their achievements and contributions to American society, because "notability" is probably not independent of race and gender and minority status. Being "notable" for much of US history was something that was mainly reserved for upperclass White men. So choosing "notability" (what ever it means) as the sole criterion for inclusion is simply perpetuates a particular political and historical bias, and hence doesnt escape the problem.User:Maunus ·ʍaunus·snunɐw· 19:51, 7 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]
"One argument about photos is that they should be distributed purely on notability". An excellent argument to help perpetuate sexism. I believe that wikipedia can do better than that. Einar aka Carptrash (talk) 19:54, 7 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]
I believe that, if all men and women are created equally they each individual should, to some extent, be considered by that individuals own merit. I believe that one of the few things that Wikipedia advocates is a WP:NPOVGregkaye✍♪ 20:07, 7 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Ahha. Men and women are not created equally and they have never been given equal access to perform those social functions that give access to the social prestige that we sometimes call "notability". That is not for lack of merits, but because Men and Women have traditionally been assigned different spheres in which they can seek merit and only the sphere in which males were given preference has been considered to lead to "notability". Also the NPOV policy has no relevance to how to base editorial decisions about whom to include in a photo cavalcade. User:Maunus ·ʍaunus·snunɐw· 20:13, 7 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]
I believe that all manifestations of sexism are intrinsically wrong. Gregkaye✍♪ 20:17, 7 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Then why are you arguing in favor of perpetuating one of its manifestations which holds that only mens achievements are notable enough to be on lists of Notable people?User:Maunus ·ʍaunus·snunɐw· 20:31, 7 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]
That isn't what I said. Gregkaye✍♪ 21:24, 7 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]
No, but as I explained in my previous comment it is the consequence of what you said.User:Maunus ·ʍaunus·snunɐw· 21:25, 7 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]
I am in favor of a rotating cast of characters in the photo montage. I am not that thrilled with the current naming of rows. Let it just be Americans of some note. If George Washington misses a month or two, that's okay. Carptrash (talk) 04:45, 8 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Why the hell is Ronald Reagan listed before John F. Kennedy? There is nothing intrinsically special in becoming US president, Secretary of State or Senator. They are all jobs that someone has to do even by misplaced actors.
Barrak Obama is the first Black U.S. President, Harvard graduate, civil rights attorney and reportedly faithful family man who hasn't launched any arguably unnecessary/unproductive wars. If you are going to consider promotion of minority groups and women then also consider Nancy Pelosi, Janet Yellen.
Please go by notability or the likes of Condoleezza Rice will seem out of place. I don't think that it helps to patronise as is the case with inclusion, at this point in time, of the likes of Taylor Swift. As far as singers go you've had the likes of Ray Charles, Frank Sinatra and Jimi Hendrix. People can be regarded as significant/notable if they have broken new ground or because they are the best at what they do.
When will it be time that WP accept what may be inevitable that native americans greeted all the others that got to the Americas but even they are in all likelihood as increased archeological study develops just as transplanted?66.74.176.59 (talk) 06:28, 19 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Wikipedia doesn't just 'accept' it, but states it as a fact: "Native Americans, whose ancestry is indigenous to the Americas, originally migrated to the two continents between 10,000-45,000 years ago". AndyTheGrump (talk) 07:54, 19 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]
United States R US or Americans we AM.
At some points in the article I got the impression that the words America and American were repeated as if to push the use of this identity.
From an outside perspective I like to question whether this approach may be counter-productive and whether WP:SOAPBOX may apply:
Enemies of the United States typically refer to the nation as America.
The United States only constitutes one of many countries in the Americas and only about one third of the total population.
Hawaii is arguably better defined as constituting a part of the United States rather than as representing a part of America.
The primary reference to the country and is the United States. This is fairly well represented through many of the categories and articles connected to Category:Government in the United States and I would personally propose that this reference may be beneficially applied in other topics as per support from WP:UCRN.
The term "United States" conveys a message of unity in specific ownership of a single nation while 50 countries across two continents share the roots of "American" terminologies.
Patriotism can be positively expressed through either terminology
America and American are legitimate and common terms in all varieties of English to use for the USA and its citizens, and are commonly-recognizable names to most of the rest of the world outside Latin America. Even the Latin Americans "recognize" the usage just fine, opposed to it that some of them are. From the US-American viewpoint, it is just as much, if not more, SOAPBOX to try to repress its usage, and certainly offensive to most of us Americans. It certainly violates WP:ENGVAR to try to suppress its usage on US-related articles. You might have a point on overusage in articles such as Americas, but not here. Anyway, this is an old argument, and it isn't likely to go away any sooner than the Falklands/Malvinas, Macedonia/FYROM, or the British Isles/Britain and Ireland naming disputes, etc. etc. And by the way, Ireland is a major English-speaking country, thanks to the British themselves, so the Irish do have somewhat of an argument ENGVAR-wise! - BilCat (talk) 03:31, 19 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]
I have to agree with BilCat here, there have been numerous discussions about this, and consensus has not changed. Also WP:COMMONNAME applies to this article, and the common name for citizens of the United States is "American", plural being Americans. Therefore, I say WP:DEADHORSE, and we move on.--RightCowLeftCoast (talk) 09:05, 19 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]
I agree with RightCowLeftCoast. Folks south of the border very rarely refer to themselves as "Americans" so the chance of misunderstanding is minimal. Both US and American are short for the "United States of America" and have been in common use worldwide since 1776. Rjensen (talk) 05:46, 20 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Beyonce
I would think that Michael Jackson or Ella Fitzgerald would be better candidates that Beyonce whose musical success doesn't have the historical impact of the other two. Same goes with Taylor Swift, for country music, there are definitely more historically significant individuals.--RightCowLeftCoast (talk) 19:58, 7 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Ella Fitzgerald should replace Beyoncé and Taylor Swift with Johnny Cash? As a suggestion. The other people are okay. --TDKR Chicago 101 (talk) 02:58, 8 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]
I would suggest replacing Taylor Swift with Dolly PArton instead. And would propose replacing beyonce with Billie Holliday rather than Ella Fitzgerald.User:Maunus ·ʍaunus·snunɐw· 03:30, 8 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]
The idea is to be proposed a people of different age. I was explain this above. It's not a problem to replace Swift or Beyonce, but least one of their places must be covered by person, who was born in last 20 - 30 years. Michael Jackson will be good addition for one of these places, but the other is needed by some young American. Christina Aguilera or Selena Gomez are two well known suggestions for the last place, because we have only one person with Latin American descent in this collage for now.--Stolichanin (talk) 08:36, 19 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Why include someone young? Doesn't that fall under WP:RECENTISM? Unless they have been involved in a world recognized significant first (like what Michael Phelps did (setting a present world record for most gold medals in a single summer olympics)), why include a young individual in the lead infobox at all?--RightCowLeftCoast (talk) 08:57, 19 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]
It is a fundamental principle in all collages (see the articles about other nations, which I gave like examples above). These people are well known today, especially for young readers. Furthermore, it is way to escape from this some sort of ancient Greek "dead nation syndrom", which has great people only in the past. Actually it is not a list of "The Greatest Americans". It's just a mosaic with 30 famous and significant Americans (too many people for infobox collage, especially for nation, which officially exist from only 238 years, but it is interesting exception and the mosaic here is different aranged as well). --Stolichanin (talk) 15:27, 19 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]
It is a fundamental principle in all collages
If it is so fundamental, where is the policy or guideline?
RECENTISM is an essay (granted), and one that has received a lot of support over the years. If anything speaks against including recent, "today", based editing. This is an encyclopedia, not Tiger Beat.--RightCowLeftCoast (talk) 05:21, 20 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]
No consensus for the mosaic
There have been alot of complaints above regarding the choice of images, and there has been no response from the drive-by user who added the mosaic. Given that there was absolutely no discussion about replacing the individual images in the infobox with a mosaic in the first place, I am restoring the previous format. Please do not readd mosaic without getting a consensus first. Thanks. - BilCat (talk) 17:32, 17 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]
I see only suggestions above, but no one objection or opinion against the mosaic. --Stolichanin (talk) 08:20, 19 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]
There was not consensus for it either. Having individuals instead of a single mosaic makes it easier to edit, but leads to a slow moving edit war over whom is selected.
Personally, I say it was better not having any collage or mosaic, and leaving the infobox blank. There are sufficient infoboxes in the different sections below the lead section to more accurately represent the diversity of Americans.--RightCowLeftCoast (talk) 09:00, 19 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]
