Talk:Ali

poor article

i cant believe what i read ! , the article mostly displays the Shi'e view only using Shi'e sources as Muslims sources , although Shia is only 10% of Muslims ! , this is NOT acceptable . the responsible of this Sabotage is Sa.vakilian (talk · contribs) . i hope somebody can fix this problem , because this article in recent case is historically not acceptable , it only Reflects the Shie's view although it is Different from neutral sources and the majority Muslems (Sunni) sources . محمد الباحوث (talk) 00:49, 9 September 2014 (UTC)

محمد الباحوث Salam, Can you please check the references of the article before accusing the others! As a newcomer with few contributions[1], I advise you reading etiquette especially WP:GOODFAITH. You can also ask Sunni participants such as User:MezzoMezzo about me. Thanks.--Seyyed(t-c) 04:40, 9 September 2014 (UTC)

However, I am open to discuss with you about every case which is controversial based on Wikipedia policies and guidelines and I confess that there may be some sentences like what you have changed in the article that need correction five years after developing this article. I wish I had time to check whole of the article based on the sources and fixed it again.--Seyyed(t-c) 08:08, 9 September 2014 (UTC)

Responding to the ping here. محمد الباحوث, you seem a bit new so I will try to keep things short and we can progress from here.

First of all, I'd like to suggest that you review Wikipedia:No personal attacks. Wikipedia is a place where we deal with each other like adults. You can't accuse a total stranger of "sabotage" or similar things without any proof at all. The default here is the benefit of the doubt - please review Wikipedia:Assume good faith.

Second of all, your comments here really aren't helpful. It's possible that articles on Wikipedia may lean toward a certain point of view, and quite frequently that's done subconsciously by editors who don't even realize it. But what specifically is the problem in this article? What passages to you find objectionable and why? And if you want progress to be made, you will need to be patient and post issues here one by one. Then other editors will be able to participate in said discussions. It's time consuming, but it's a proven method for improving the encyclopedia.

Take some time to cool off and think things over. Your fellow editors aren't your enemies and I can tell you that based on seven years or so of interaction, Seyyed is an honest and hardworking editor who wants to expand on articles related to the history of the Middle East and South Asia (and possibly other topics I'm not aware of). Please remember to always be respectful even when disagreeing, and think of other editors as your colleagues. MezzoMezzo (talk) 07:16, 11 September 2014 (UTC)

Criticizing orientalists' approach towards Ghadir Khom

@User:Mehdi ghaed added something about orientalists' approach towards Ghadir Khom: also some scholars such as Sayyid Muhammad Rizvi believes that orientalists explain the Ghadir Khum event regerardless to shiitte views rather that they interpret the event according to Sunni attitudes.

Let's suppose this claim is correct. There are some criteria in wikipedia for adding information to the article.

1. According to WP:NPOV, aq Jimbo describes clearly about WP:UNDUE:

• If a viewpoint is in the majority, then it should be easy to substantiate it with reference to commonly accepted reference texts;
• If a viewpoint is held by a significant minority, then it should be easy to name prominent adherents;
• If a viewpoint is held by an extremely small (or vastly limited) minority, it does not belong in Wikipedia regardless of whether it is true or not and regardless of whether you can prove it or not, except perhaps in some ancillary article.

1. According to WP:RELIABLE the claim needs reliable source. WP:SCHOLARSHIP explains which source is reliable in academic context.
2. Due to the fact that the source is a Shia website, the claim may be a religious viewpoint. Then according to MOS:ISLAM :In Islam with organized academies or recognized theological experts in religious doctrine and scholarship, the proceedings of official religious bodies and the journals or publications of recognized and well-regarded religious academies and experts can be considered reliable sources for religious doctrine and views where such views represent significant viewpoints on an article subject. Ordination alone does not generally ensure religious expertise or reliability. Absent evidence of stature or a reputation for expertise in a leading, important religious denomination or community, the view of an individual minister or theologian is ordinarily not reliable for representing religious views.

Finally, I think this claim can not be added to the article unless the above criteria are satisfied.--Seyyed(t-c) 09:55, 21 July 2014 (UTC)

Thanks for this. I'd expressed concerns about this when I originally removed it and was planning to look into it more, but I am now removing it again until we can get agreement that it should be in the article and that it is reliably sourced. Dougweller (talk) 11:33, 21 July 2014 (UTC)

I think that Muhammad Rizvi's viewpoint as as famous scholar shiite concerned with second criteria , namely:

• If a viewpoint is held by a significant minority, then it should be easy to name prominent adherents;

Since that Shiite could be thought of as a significant minority . Sayyed mummad Rizvi is the Imam of Shiah community of British Columbia. According to common sense, the shia community of British Colombia are prominent adherents.

Secondly, though I refer to a website as reliable source but must be mentioned that the source is both as a book compiled in that site and also is a part of book as below: Shī‘ism Imāmate & Wilāyat. Canada: Al-Ma‘ārif Books. 1999. ISBN 0-920675-11-5 Therefore according to the rule: 1. Material such as an article, book, monograph, or research paper that has been vetted by the scholarly community is regarded as reliable, where the material has been published in reputable peer-reviewed sources or by well-regarded academic presses. There is no problem about source. I think that the editor misinterprets the above law.Mehdi ghaed (talk) 15:49, 21 July 2014 (UTC)

As I understand he is a Shia scholar. Therefor, you should add it based on the third point not the second one. Sayyid Muhammad Rizvi, Shia scholar, believes that orientalists explain the Ghadir Khum event regerardless to shiitte views rather that they interpret the event according to Sunni attitudes.

However, I have not convinced about satisfying WP:UNDUE yet. Can you please provide another reference with support this claim, as well.--Seyyed(t-c) 14:07, 21 July 2014 (UTC)

as far as I found out it, Shiite and Shiite scholar like Rizvi counted as a significant minority not as a extremely small (or vastly limited) minority.

besides as Wikipedia linked and formerly I bold the name of Rizvi in Wikipedia, it is clear that not only Rizvi counted as known and famous figure among Shiites but also as below:

"Sayyid serves as a crucial figure in the building of bridges with other faiths and surrounding communities. These accomplishments have been due to, firstly, his numerous written works promoting peace and understanding, and, secondly, his continued active participation in inter-faith and inter-community dialogues". because of this I dint think it is needed to mention further sources.Mehdi ghaed (talk) 16:07, 21 July 2014 (UTC)

unfortunately, you've got the issue completely wrong. What you has written about Muhammad Rizvi does not relate to our context, i.e. history. There is written While in Vancouver, he was able to complete his Master of Arts degree in History (with no prior undergraduate degree) in 1991 from Simon Fraser University. How do you expect we accept such a big claim from someone with MA in history. Please pay attention to his works. It is clear that his main field of study is Fiqh.--Seyyed(t-c) 03:24, 22 July 2014 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 26 September 2014

84.255.151.48 (talk) 21:52, 26 September 2014 (UTC)

Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format. Cannolis (talk) 23:06, 26 September 2014 (UTC)

Concern from a new editor 9th December 2014

I am slightly concerned about this page. There seems to be an element of bias in the article. It has a strong leaning towards shia opinions, in fact it reads like a sectarian opinion piece. I shall give my reason at the end. I was under the impression that articles must be neutral and meet consensus. Therefore would it not be more appropriate to have a an articles on Ali that is agreed upon by concensus and then have seperate articles for Shia, Sunni, Alawi and Sufi views on him. Would it also be possible for someone to specifically look at the references. There are a lot of references to 2 canonical hadith books; Sahih Bukhari and Sahih Muslim. These are primary textbooks which seem to have been used maliciously to put a particular point of view across. I apologise beforehand if I am mistaken in my observation. I do not mean to be rude but this is an obvious strategy used on debating forums using sources in such a way. Since this is not a discussion forum, could I suggest that, like the limits on use of Quran as reference, the same criteria apply to these texts as well. Surely it would be more useful to use the most authoritative commentaries on the hadith books like the two Fath Al Bari's or any other that you can find.

Regarding the other reason for the inherent bias, there is no mention of the role of Abu Bakr and Aisha in making Ali's marriage to Fatimah successful. I guess this would make the 'opinion piece' further down the article less favourable. If sources are needed they are: Jila ul Ayun Bihar al Anwar Manaqib Kashaful Ghumma Ibn Maja Amali by Atusi

I am not asking for removal of the content but just that it be moved into another side article (I don't know what the correct terms for this is yet) and the general tone of the article should be more neutral.

I am hoping to learn so welcome any constructive criticism, especially any grave errors I have made. Mbcap (talk) 03:08, 9 December 2014 (UTC)

I just edited the introduction but forgot to put in an edit summary. I changed the line about his birth in the Kaaba to make it more neutral. Mbcap (talk) 20:03, 9 December 2014 (UTC) @Mbcap, Thank for your attention and suggestions. I review your points one by one.

• Therefore would it not be more appropriate to have a an articles on Ali that is agreed upon by concensus and then have seperate articles for Shia, Sunni, Alawi and Sufi views on him Of course, we have tried to do so since 2007. Therefor we moved a lot of information to the articles such as Shia view of Ali and Non-Muslim view of Ali and tried to reach consensus on this page.
• I am not asking for removal of the content but just that it be moved into another side article As I told above, we have moved the information which has not supported by secondary and tertiary sources. I think moving such information to the sub-articles is not acceptable.
• Would it also be possible for someone to specifically look at the references. There are a lot of references to 2 canonical hadith books; Sahih Bukhari and Sahih Muslim. These are primary textbooks which seem to have been used maliciously to put a particular point of view across. These are just for clarification and in every cases there secondary reliable sources which support those primary sources. We tried to follow this guideline.
• Regarding the other reason for the inherent bias... Please be bold and provide information with reliable sources. Of course, some of the sources which you have mentioned or all of them are primary sources. For example, Bihar al Anwar is nothing but collection of Shia Hadiths.

Thank for your polite and positive approach to make the article more neutral. Let's know your suggestions in details. --Seyyed(t-c) 05:46, 27 January 2015 (UTC)

Why Rafida hijacked page?

This about great caliph of Muslimeen and you know islam make up mostly people of Haq from the ahlul sunnah. Why have Rafida hijack page. I tell to you to make fair the page and not propaganda. Shukran. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.114.138.76 (talk) 23:13, 29 December 2014 (UTC)

This comment describes Shia Muslims with a pejorative term, Rafida. The comment does not represent the consensus among Sunni Muslims or any people of good will. I am sorry it was posted. — ℜob C. alias ALAROB 20:08, 30 March 2015 (UTC)

Into compression

Should we make the introduction shorter?--88.111.129.157 (talk) 19:37, 17 May 2015 (UTC)