Template talk:Infobox officeholder

Guidelines for when to include each parameter

Some guidelines as to when to use each parameter might be helpful. There is currently a disagreement (Talk:Julia Gillard#Inclusion of monarch and governor-general in infobox) about whether the monarch and governor-general should be included in {{infobox prime minister}}.

Infoboxes vs succession boxes

See article Barbara Snelling. The info box officeholder nearly duplicates the info in the succession boxes. The bio is short and the article looks a bit silly as a result. IMO, the duplicate material in the info box should be rm. Shorten the info box information for readability. Detracts from the article and renders the succession boxes irrelevant IMO. This should be worked out as a policy for all officeholders IMO. Student7 (talk) 15:25, 10 November 2015 (UTC)

"Notes" parameter

Could someone add a "notes" parameter to this infobox such as the one in Template:Infobox military conflict? There's currently a "footnotes" parameter here, but the style is different from "notes" in that the former does not have a line separating it from the rest of the infobox. It doesn't seem like a controversial request, and I would've added the parameter myself, but I cannot figure out how to. --Al Ameer (talk) 04:34, 24 November 2015 (UTC)

Officeholders-elect when the officeholder fills a vacant seat?

What do you do with an officeholder-elect who is taking office where there's no particular person being succeeded? The specific use case I'm asking about is for David Wecht, who was elected to one of three vacant seats on the Supreme Court of Pennsylvania. I've looked and it doesn't appear that the seats are designated in terms easily convertible to predecessor/successor. Is there a way to do essentially what the succeeding parameter does without naming a predecessor to come? —/Mendaliv/^2¢/_Δ's/ 01:44, 21 December 2015 (UTC)

RfC on inclusion of Monarch in Information Boxes on NI politicians

A recent RfC about the use of this template requires some more input - especially as it is in a politically difficult area ----Snowded ^TALK 11:12, 26 December 2015 (UTC)

(Previous comments:) (1) Doesn't actually add anything to the Martin McGuinness article, or other Northern Ireland Republican/nationalist politician articles, except maybe giving unionists a cheap laugh and a moment's validation. However, if we must have it in NI politician infoboxes, surely a less contentious term that wouldn't be found grossly offensive by Republicans/Nationalists could be arrived at? (2) Should we also add "Population", "GDP", "Longest river" and "Highest mountain" to FM/DFM infoboxes? Monarch, longest river, population and highest mountain are relevant for WP entries on states. Not for entries on individual politicians. And considering the lack of power enjoyed by the "monarch" of a parliamentary democracy, the relevance even on the constituent UK state's pages is tenuous.

Add: This optional entry on the template shouldn't be included for nationalist/Republican NI politicians. Including "monarch" it is needlessly "pointy". If something must be included, then add "Head of state" instead. Bastun^{Ėġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ!} 12:43, 27 December 2015 (UTC)

I don't think it is needlessly pointy. The queen is a monarch, she reigns, she wears a crown, she isn't an elected head of state etc etc. Any citizen in the UK or a Commonwealth country has Queen Elizabeth II as a monarch, even if they would vote for a republic in a referendum.--♦IanMacM♦ ^{(talk to me)} 13:30, 27 December 2015 (UTC)

By that logic, Monarch should be added to the 'football biography', 'military person', 'religious person', 'Muslim scholar', 'cricketer', 'Alpine skier' and indeed every 'person' infobox templates. Regarding the pointiness - we're talking about a place where they have riots about flags and burn effigies, and think that's normal. You have the option to not needlessly cause drama or offence, simply by confirming that an optional parameter in a template is indeed optional... Bastun^{Ėġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ!} 14:09, 27 December 2015 (UTC)

If we're going to continue to include the monarch in the infoboxes of English, Scottish & Welsh politicians? Then we must continue to do so for Northern Irish politicians. AFAIK, Northern Ireland is still a part of the United Kingdom, just like England, Scotland & Wales. GoodDay (talk) 14:27, 27 December 2015 (UTC)

"AFAIK, Northern Ireland is still a part of the United Kingdom, just like England, Scotland & Wales." How is this relevant? The First Ministers of Scotland and Wales are appointed by the sovereign. The First and deputy First Ministers of Northern Ireland are appointed by the Assembly. It makes no sense to include the name of the monarch. Moonboy54 (talk) 21:28, 27 December 2015 (UTC)

Elizabeth II is not shown in these infoboxes as the appointer. GoodDay (talk) 21:41, 27 December 2015 (UTC)

She's not, but it's another example of how NI politics differs from Britain's. Gob Lofa (talk) 22:01, 27 December 2015 (UTC)

She's not shown as the appointer in the other British politician infoboxes, either. Therefore, no need to make changes to only Northern Ireland. GoodDay (talk) 22:29, 27 December 2015 (UTC)

If you really can't see that Northern Ireland is different to the rest of the UK, should you be commenting at all? Bastun^{Ėġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ!} 22:38, 27 December 2015 (UTC)

Elizabeth II still reigns over Northern Ireland, as she does over England, Scotland & Wales. Unless & until that changes? my position on this infobox matter, won't. GoodDay (talk) 00:06, 28 December 2015 (UTC)

Most of these points have been made at Talk:Martin_McGuinness. The field is problematic for some people and not entirely necessary, but being a politician in the UK or a Commonwealth country means having the Queen as head of state and nominal head of government. The argument that it should be removed for Nationalist but not Unionist NI politicians is a non starter in my view, because it leads to a deliberately imposed inconsistency.--♦IanMacM♦ ^{(talk to me)} 14:52, 27 December 2015 (UTC)

I agree with Bastun's points. I disagree with the contention that NI politics infoboxes must be identical to other UK ones; NI political structures aren't. Gob Lofa (talk) 18:24, 27 December 2015 (UTC)

No reason has been given for making NI infoboxes, or other monarchy infoboxes, different from others. We routinely provide the head of state in a politician infobox, regardless of the country and regardless of the political system. Consider Dick Cheney, who was US defense secretary (that section of his infobox lists Bush Sr, who appointed him) and US vice president (that section of his infobox lists Bush Jr, with whom he served). Or consider Junichirō Koizumi, whose infobox includes Emperor Akihito, who doesn't have any powers, even nominally. Or consider Joseph Boakai, whose infobox lists current President Sirleaf. And on and on and on...there's no reason to remove this field from the NI politicians' infoboxes when the same setup is used with politicians worldwide. Nyttend (talk) 23:48, 27 December 2015 (UTC)

I've just had a look at the pages of the last three presidents of Republika Srpska (see List of Presidents of Republika Srpska); none of them have their head of state in their infoboxes. Gob Lofa (talk) 00:19, 28 December 2015 (UTC)

How about we make the entry special Head of State? Get rid of the odd "appointed by' which is not in the template. Given that is the intention it would be less contentious that naming it as Monarch or President ----Snowded ^TALK 05:18, 28 December 2015 (UTC)

Less contentious, certainly. Would support "Head of State" as a compromise. Bastun^{Ėġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ!} 10:14, 28 December 2015 (UTC)

This is a sensible suggestion. The infobox doesn't currently have a field for Head of State, although one could be added by someone with the relevant authority. Only template editors and administrators can edit the template.--♦IanMacM♦ ^{(talk to me)} 12:00, 28 December 2015 (UTC)

a very simple solution would be to use the appointer field in the template, for the relevant roles the monarch appoints Ouime23 (talk) 12:55, 28 December 2015 (UTC)

No real value in that. The appointment in the UK is simply a confirmation not an actual appointment. What is your objection to explicitly making the name of the field "Head of State"? You can make it the nature of the appointment clear in the text. ----Snowded ^TALK 18:18, 28 December 2015 (UTC)

TBH, I don't see a lot of difference between 'Head of State', 'Monarch', 'President'. But, if HoS will calm the waters? then no prob. GoodDay (talk) 19:24, 28 December 2015 (UTC)

There's nothing wrong with the status quo. The argument is that the Monarch did not appoint the NI officials. However, that argument has no grounds, as the template does not have the monarch as appointer. GoodDay (talk) 14:01, 28 December 2015 (UTC)

No, read above. That's only one of the arguments. Bastun^{Ėġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ!} 18:16, 28 December 2015 (UTC)

we are giving users the false impression, that the monarch appoints NI leaders, you may argue that she is there as the head of state but that is not what it comes across as Ouime23 (talk) 20:33, 28 December 2015 (UTC)

Ouime23, please hold off from making changes like this, until things are settled here. GoodDay (talk) 23:01, 28 December 2015 (UTC)

OK I see four in favour of a change to Head of State from Monarch/President? No opposes and Ouime23 not responding to the specific question. If that is the case we can make the request and then go through the UK articles to get them all in line. ----Snowded ^TALK 23:05, 28 December 2015 (UTC)

Go for it. GoodDay (talk) 23:08, 28 December 2015 (UTC)

I oppose the inclusion of head of state where the head of state does not appoint the person, I have provided links to the relevant legislation that shows there is no link between the monarch and the NI FM/dFM, you have not provided a reason that would support its inclusion Ouime23 (talk) 12:02, 29 December 2015 (UTC)

I dislike this supposition that the field is compulsory. I've given examples of where it's not used. Gob Lofa (talk) 13:55, 29 December 2015 (UTC)

I don't think it has to be compulsory, but we need an agreement on when it is not used. Why we would exclude mentioning the Head of State simply on the basis of appointment I am less sure of. By changing it to Head of State we remove the ambiguity that seems to continue to cancern our SPA account Ouime23 ----Snowded ^TALK 13:07, 30 December 2015 (UTC)

• Leave empty. It's obviously a contentious issue. The whole point of the NI Assembly and Executive is to bring opposing traditions together. There's no reason to score political points on Wikipedia when the politicians themselve avoid doing it. Scolaire (talk) 15:06, 29 December 2015 (UTC)

• The Queen invites someone to be Prime Minister, and has weekly meeting with him. The government is her government and she reads out a speech they prepare every year. None of this is true for the First Minister or Deputy First Minister of Northern Ireland. The Monarch is not listed for the Mayor of London either. For only result of including the monarch here is to needlessly annoy nationalists. — Blue-Haired Lawyer ^t 12:52, 30 December 2015 (UTC)

as far as I can see the consensus is to remove the monarch from the NI FM/dFM infoboxesOuime23 (talk) 18:17, 30 December 2015 (UTC)

Why not remove the monarch from all the FM & DFM bios of Scotland, Nortern Ireland & Wales. Removing the monarch from just Northern Ireland FMs & DFMs, to make Irish nationalists feel better, is unacceptable. GoodDay (talk) 18:28, 30 December 2015 (UTC)

as I have said before it's not about nationalism please take your assertions elsewhere the NI FM dFM are not comparable offices with the Scottish and Welsh ones.. The monarch appoints the Scottish and Welsh FM so it is appropriate on those articles Ouime23 (talk) 19:01, 30 December 2015 (UTC)

It doesn't show the monarch as the appointer in any of the aforementioned articles. Why keep asserting that it does? GoodDay (talk) 19:21, 30 December 2015 (UTC)

not but it gives that impression, the monarch has no link to the NI FM dFM so is irrelant to include itOuime23 (talk) 19:24, 30 December 2015 (UTC)

It is relevant, as long as the British monarch reigns over Northern Ireland. GoodDay (talk) 19:25, 30 December 2015 (UTC)

using that argument, you would have to include the monarch on every infobox for a UK citizen, which again is a non starter and the argument doesn't make sense Ouime23 (talk) 19:34, 30 December 2015 (UTC)

We'll have to agree to disagree on this matter. I won't support making Northern Ireland a special case here. We either include the monarch in all FM & DFM infoboxes or we exclude from all. GoodDay (talk) 19:36, 30 December 2015 (UTC)

this is an encyclopaedia which gives factual information we should not be making appeasement to people who cannot grasp the UKs constitutional arrangements Ouime23 (talk) 19:38, 30 December 2015 (UTC)

We'll leave it up to the other participants. GoodDay (talk) 19:53, 30 December 2015 (UTC)

Umm Ouime23 you really aren't helping yourself here and being an SPA is not helping you either. In response to your earlier statement there is no consensus here to remove monarch from the template or to make it optional - just count. You also seem to be the only editor making an explicit question between the Head of State and appointment. By making the name of the field "Head of State" (only you are are opposed to that so far) we make it clear what the name is without implications that the individual accepts the role of a monarch. So there are two questions (i) do we change the name, for this there does seem to be agreement and (ii) is the inclusion of Head of State as a field a requirement for all politician articles? If the answer to the second is no then we get a third namely: Should it be removed for all NI politicians or only for nationalists? ----Snowded ^TALK 20:03, 30 December 2015 (UTC)

I: have already stated the monarch should only be included for roles where the monarch appoints them, we should not included them for any other UK politician i.e. local government leadersOuime23 (talk) 20:09, 30 December 2015 (UTC)

Yep that is your opinion, is it still your opinion if we make the field 'Head of State"? I assume it is, but there is no consensus so fare for that. Removal of the Head of State has some agreement but not necessarily for that reason. I don't think it will reach consensus especially if we want to remove it from all NI politicians. So the three questions I ask above are relevant. Remember the body of the article can make the nature of who appoints clear in proper context ----Snowded ^TALK 20:17, 30 December 2015 (UTC)

the answer to your question is the head of state/monarch whatever you want to call it should only be included in roles where there is a link ie appointed by, for other roles such as council leaders/ mayor of London it should not be included Ouime23 (talk) 21:09, 30 December 2015 (UTC)

Well, if we've participants refusing to recognise the nature of Northern Ireland or the nuanced compromise that nature requires, who am I to agree to one? Striking earlier support for compromise. Remove what is in any case a non-compulsory field, per Scolaire, Ouime23, Gob Lofa, and Blue-Haired Lawyer. Bastun^{Ėġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ!} 00:14, 31 December 2015 (UTC)

Remove. I see no compelling case for including the UK head of state in the infoboxes for NI politicians, nor for any other politicians for that matter. I note the head of state is omitted from the infoboxes of Northern Ireland Assembly and First Minister and deputy First Minister, where a better case could be made. In my view, a head of state listing is more suited to the infobox of an office than a person. Daicaregos (talk) 12:00, 31 December 2015 (UTC)

Remove - from all FMs & DFMs of Scotland, Wales & Northern Ireland. Keep out of FMs & DFMs of England aswell, if England should form its own devolved Parliament. GoodDay (talk) 13:57, 31 December 2015 (UTC)

Remove. Forgive an unrepentant republican...but in all the cases noted above, twas the voters who actually appointed them. And by the way I wouldn't be surprised if User:GoodDay is waiting to say that Canadian etc such pages should also require removal. Such a trouble maker. :) Juan Riley (talk) 20:26, 1 January 2016 (UTC)

I would like to see the Monarch removed from the Canadian premier bios infoboxes aswell. But, that's a tad more difficult, considering the number of bios involved. GoodDay (talk) 21:37, 1 January 2016 (UTC)

it seems clear the consensus is to remove the monarch field form the NI FM/dFM articles, could someone please update the articles? I would do this myself but I fear it would be reverted by other users. Ouime23 (talk) 21:41, 1 January 2016 (UTC)

Remove from all of them, including Scotland & Wales. GoodDay (talk) 21:59, 1 January 2016 (UTC)

this discussion is about he NI roles as has been pointed out the monarch appoints the Welsh and Scottish FM's, is you want to remove it from those articles please made your case for doing soOuime23 (talk) 22:16, 1 January 2016 (UTC)

If we don't agree to remove from all bios-in-question? I'll have to withdraw my support of removal in the Northern Ireland bios-in-quesiton. It's either all or none. GoodDay (talk) 22:19, 1 January 2016 (UTC)

Was about to say I am brave or foolish enough to do the removal, but, however, not really experienced enough to do so. And then User:GoodDay saved me. I think (sigh) I have to agree with him. Juan Riley (talk) 22:26, 1 January 2016 (UTC)

Though I briefly reverted Ouime23's deletions today on the Norther Ireland-based articles-in-question, I later restored those deletions with further corrections. We appear to have a consensus to exclude the monarch.

Now, I've reverted Ouime23's additions of Scottish Parliament as nominator, to the infoboxes of Scottish FMs. Do we need to have a Rfc on that topic? GoodDay (talk) 17:40, 5 January 2016 (UTC)

RfC announce: Religion in infoboxes

There is an RfC at Template talk:Infobox#RfC: Religion in infoboxes concerning what What should be allowed in the religion entry in infoboxes. Please join the discussion and help us to arrive at a consensus on this issue. --Guy Macon (talk) 19:39, 2 January 2016 (UTC)

Template-protected edit request on 16 January 2016

|predecessor = Barack Obongo change to Barack Obama

198.0.237.251 (talk) 23:40, 16 January 2016 (UTC)