Talk:Mahidevran

Origin

In this article the sentence about Mahidevran's origin had been changed several times. Circassian or Albanian ? I badly need a reliable source to back either claim. Nedim Ardoğa (talk) 06:21, 31 January 2011 (UTC)

She was an Albanian; her father, Abdullah Recai was a musician and her brother was Nakkashan Adem. In Albenian Gülbahar means Rosne Pravnere. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.101.0.179 (talk) 11:44, 12 June 2011 (UTC)

About sources

Mahidevran Sultan in Türkçe Bilgi = tr:Meahidevran Sultan in Turkish Wikipedia. Takabeg (talk) 09:10, 24 June 2011 (UTC)

Check the pronunciation

Someone needs to check the pronunciation: stress and vowel length. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 46.161.124.138 (talk) 14:13, 11 April 2012 (UTC)

Turkish People

It's wondering me about the Turks...

SO many false claimed about Mahidevran and a daughter of Süleyman , who called Raziye

Mahidevran had only one son, it was Mustafa.

Raziye was born 1519, as daughter of süleyman and fülane hatun. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 217.248.138.199 (talk) 06:06, 14 October 2012 (UTC)

• Excuse me but I can't see what are you wondering about ? Raziye was one of Süleyman's daughters. What does it have to do with the section head ? Nedim Ardoğa (talk) 19:14, 14 October 2012 (UTC)

• raziye was born 1525... her mum's mahidevran... also mahidevran was Circassian noble... that is mahidevran's nephew's interview http://www.odatv.com/n.php?n=iste-gercek-mahidevran-0910121200

Image

I removed a painting of Rosne Pranvere from the article. The source is "BBC your paintings". The original caption is only "sultana" and there is no reference to Rosne Pranvere. I called both the contributor and the gallery to show any link to Rosne and so far I get none. Nedim Ardoğa (talk) 08:32, 8 January 2014 (UTC)

As stated on the DP of the file on commons, there is no attested connection with Mahidevran nor with Bassano for this picture.--Phso2 (talk) 14:10, 14 January 2014 (UTC)

Title

The page Mahidevran Sultan should be moved to Mahidevran Gülbahar Hatun because Mahidevran was never a concubine or a Haseki Sultan and Hürrem Sultan was the first Haseki Sultan.--Retrieverlove 1:09, 22 June 2014

Not all Sultan's consort who held title "Sultan" after their given name were Haseki Sultan. Example: Mahfiruz Hatice. She's not Haseki nor Valide. Hafidh Wahyu P (talk) 15:12, 24 December 2015 (UTC)

Issue

Mahidevran and Suleiman had five children -- three sons and two daughters.

• Şehzade Mahmud (November 1512 - 29 October 1521);
• Şehzade Mustafa (c. 1515 - 6 October 1553);
• Şehzade Ahmed (c. 1517-18 - ?);
• Fatma Sultan (c. 1521 - c. 1576), married to Mimar Sinan;
• Raziye Sultan (c. 1525 - 1570), married to Taşlıcalı Yahya Efendi--Retrieverlove
• Şehzade Abdullah

References

Mahidevran Hatun

Why is she called Mahidevran Sultan in this article? Before Hürrem Sultan, every consort was called hatun. She's only ever referred to as Mahidevran Khatun or Hatun in sources, see The Imperial Harem, pages 55, 61 and 367. Letempsviendra (talk) 19:30, 16 December 2015 (UTC)

Maybe. Hurrem was the Haseki Sultan which makes her the principal wife and consort of Suleiman but Mahidevran's situation was also different form other consorts like Gulfem as she was the mother of heir apparent to the throne and the future Vailde Sultan. Keivan.f^Talk 09:43, 21 December 2015 (UTC)

Besides, I just reverted your move so the other users can also discuss the matter. Then we can decide to use which title. Keivan.f^Talk 09:55, 21 December 2015 (UTC)

(You reverted to a name that was not the original name of the article and you could have waited the end of this discussion to do so). She is called "Mahidevran Khatun" by Leslie Pierce, a scholarly source centered on the subject. Which reliable source explicitly calls her "Mahidevran Sultan"?--Phso2 (talk) 10:40, 21 December 2015 (UTC)

@Phso2 I moved the page back to its previous title. Now do you have any other sources that call her "Mahidevran Hatun" except the book written by Pierce? Keivan.f^Talk 12:11, 23 December 2015 (UTC)

Actually the original title of this article was Mahidevran. (see History) I chose this title, simply because her name was Mahidevran (and not sultan or hatun). Both sultan and hatun are noble titles rather than her name. Since we don't need to disambiguate the name Mahidevran, the royal title is redundant. Nedim Ardoğa (talk) 14:48, 23 December 2015 (UTC)

I think so too. The royal title is redundant, we should return to the original title "Mahidevran". Anyway, she is also given the title "hatun" and not "sultan" in Padişahların Kadınları ve Kızları by Çağatay Uluçay ([1]).--Phso2 (talk) 20:14, 23 December 2015 (UTC)

I don't agree with you. So many other royals carry noble titles before or after their names and these titles are included in their articles' names. Prince, Duke, Sultan, Khan, etc. So if her royal title was "Hatun" then let it be as it is. Keivan.f^Talk 08:13, 24 December 2015 (UTC)

@Nedim Ardoğa Anyway I have a question that you may have its answer. Can we include the title "Sultan" after the name of a Haseki Sultan? Ayşe Hatun (wife of Murad IV) was a Haseki. So I think we should change "Hatun" to "Sultan". Keivan.f^Talk 08:25, 24 December 2015 (UTC)

There is no established usage of royal titles in WP: See three different examples. Elizabeth I of England, Queen Victoria and Elizabeth II, all referring to the queens of the same country. But you can see that both Elizabeth I and Victoria needs disambiguation whereas Elizabeth II is immensely more notable than the two other Elizabeth IIs (a princess and a ship) . Consequently, no royal titles are used in the article heading. Since there is no other notable Mahidevrans I prefer Mahidevran as the title of this article. `Nedim Ardoğa (talk) 09:11, 24 December 2015 (UTC)

@Nedim Ardoğa All of the examples you gave here are articles about monarchs. The protocol about the consorts is that their articles' titles should include their royal titles, Queen Máxima of the Netherlands, Empress Kōjun, Queen Sofía of Spain, Razia Sultana, Mandukhai Khatun, Empress Dowager Cixi, etc. Of course if there was another thing named Mahidevran, a ship for example, its article would be titled Mahidevran (ship) or Mahidevran Hatun (ship) and in my opinion it's not a good reason for changing this article's title as it has nothing to do with this page. Keivan.f^Talk 12:27, 25 December 2015 (UTC)

@Nedim Ardoğa @Keivan @Phso2 Please see some references which proves her title to be Sultan. You may also look for Turkish sources like Turkish Philology; Türk dili: dil ve edebiyat dergisi, Issue 454. I want to make one point clear, Peirce simply didn't mentioned her title in her book, instead she added Hatun to her name which was used for every single lady at that time, even maids, and even today, Hatun (or Khatun) literally translates as "Madam" or "Lady". She did that out of respect. But Peirce's not using her title simply doesn't mean that she didn't have that title. For example, Chairman Mao's page in Wikipedia is Mao Zedong and Queen Elizabeth's page is Elizabeth II but it doesn't mean that Queen Elizabeth isn't queen. Mahidevran would have been called Hatun prior to Mustafa's becoming Heir Apparent, but as tradition goes, in entire Ottoman History, the mother of heir apparent was referred as Sultan. But even if that's not the case, the sources I have provide does claim her to be a wife, so it's apparent and obvious her title was Sultan. Worldandhistory (talk) 00:51, 27 January 2016 (UTC)

Her name was Mahidevran. You can add many royal titles and epithets to it. In ancient and medieval times, the royal people used too many epithets. In some cases the number of epithets are so much that they make reading difficult. So it is best not to use royal epithets in the article titles. However one can add a section dedicated solely to the epithets, titles and alternative names (see an example in Tardu) . Thus I oppose both hatun and sultan. Nedim Ardoğa (talk) 08:49, 27 January 2016 (UTC)

@Nedim Ardoğa I agree, the page should only read as Mahidevran. Though you must keep in mind Hatun is not a title. And I would like to present some other sources which referred her title as Sultana. So I would strongly recommend to have it mentioned in her article. We should present all that every source has to offer and simply just doesn't present the history as we please. The sources provided, even if they are "snippet views" contradicts the motion that "Historically, Mahidevran couldn't be called Mahidevran Sultan".Worldandhistory (talk) 19:13, 28 January 2016 (UTC)

References

Date of death

Keivan, do you really have access to the proposed source? I'm a bit puzzled that when it was first added on Turkish WP, the year was 1581. (besides, you don't mention Turkish among the languages you speak)--Phso2 (talk) 10:22, 25 December 2015 (UTC)

@Phso2 First of all most of the parts in Pierce's book are sourced except a few exceptions and death date of Mahidevran is one of them. I can't speak Turkish fluently but I have a basic knowledge of it. Anyway I had a discussion with the user who added this source on Turkish article (albeit in English) and he replied like this: "The empire was using Islamic calendar during that era. The source that your book (Pierce's book) has used may be an Ottoman source that was written in that era. So, if the main source for example says "someone had died in 988", her death year can be 1580 or 1581. The reason of that difference "may be" this." The current source which is used on the article says that she had died in the last month of 987 Hijri on day 16, which is exactly the same with 3 February 1580. Besides there are images taken by a user from her tomb and one of them (this photo) shows a note on her grave including her death year, 1580. Keivan.f^Talk 12:45, 25 December 2015 (UTC)

But on your talkpage Rapsar doesn't say anything about "the last month of 987 Hijri on day 16" and he actually wrote the date is 3 Şubat 1581. What exactly does the source say?--Phso2 (talk) 21:26, 25 December 2015 (UTC)

@Phso2 I'll ask him, then I'll inform you. Keivan.f^Talk 08:19, 26 December 2015 (UTC)

You should retry to finally obtain an answer. But anyway, it was a bit too bold from your part to change the sourced date from 1581 to 1580 only on the basis of the mausoleum photograph, isn't it?--Phso2 (talk) 17:52, 6 January 2016 (UTC)

@Phso2 I'm not running away from answering. Check the Turkish Wikipedia. I have already left a message on that user's talk page. Anyway, the date given on Leslie Pierce's book isn't sourced as well. As you can see all the sentences are sourced in that paragraph except that sentence. Also I didn't change that date based on a grave note, but based on a reliable source used on Turkish Wikipedia. Then you asked for the exact date and I told you to wait for a while. I again left a message on his talk page. Currently I'm waiting for his response. Keivan.f^Talk 17:49, 10 January 2016 (UTC)

Now he has answered. I don't want to argue, but it was indeed you who changed the date from 1581 to 1580 in the Turkish wikipedia, so you lacked carefulness this time; but from now you will be more watchful.--Phso2 (talk) 22:20, 10 January 2016 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 8 February 2016

The Word Birinci Kadin means "First Lady" as in (respected) wife of reigning king, not "First Woman". Please correct that. She is known to be a legal wife before Hurrem Sultan, but not so popular since Hurrem Sultan was the first "slave" to become a legal wife, hence, only Hurrem's being a legal wife is so popular. 113.203.158.58 (talk) 00:23, 8 February 2016 (UTC)

Done EvergreenFir (talk) Please {{re}} 19:48, 19 February 2016 (UTC)

Title of this page

I request a change of title, to revert it back to its original name (which was only "Mahidevran") and maintain its protected status. Why does she have sultan next to her name? The information given in this page reveals that despite being called addressed as a sultana she wasn't one, and before that edit came to be the page addressed her as hatun (and many others too ), which is also a title she's been given in other sources. She was not a sultana, she was a Birinci Kadin , therefore if any "royal title" should be used to her name it should be that; this is highly misleading and causes conflict with Ottoman history. 190.218.117.86 (talk) 01:47, 29 February 2016 (UTC)

I second it. In fact the matter has already been discussed above (See section Mahidevran Hatun) Nedim Ardoğa (talk) 07:46, 29 February 2016 (UTC)

I beg to differ, in many books (arts, literature whatever you may call) she has been known as Sultana. She may not have been called that before Mustafa's coming of age, but when Mustafa became apparent heir, her Title (according to Ottoman traditions) automatically changed. Also, a Sultana was a woman in Sultan's family, being a mother of heir apparent living in the Harem at the same time the title Haseki was used for Hurrem, it can be asserted that she was also called Sultana, due to the fact that in her time (when Hurrem came along) Sultana title was already started being used for royal consorts regardless if they were haseki or not, see example of Mahfiruz Hatice Sultan, who was niether haseki nor Valide. Give me one name of the mother of potential heir to the throne (like mustafa) who wasn't called Sultana after 1500. Depriving someone of their last name or title for your own satisfaction is NOT just, it's highly misleading and causes conflict with Ottoman history. Also, she became an important symbol of how ottoman consorts never had a permanent position in Harem and politics as it was only after Mahidevran with whom the Ottoman started respecting their royal consorts, it is obvious, that when Hurrem Sultan was given such elevation the same time the mother of heir apparent was alive and living in the Harem, that Mahidevran was also considered as Sultan's family member and hence the title. Also please keep the recent source in mind about an interview with her alleged descendant. If interviews can be cited in Wikipedia for every living or dead person, why there is so much debate in this one? I do NOT understand. Here are some sources (regardless of their nature) they contradicts the motion that she wasn't called Sultan. She has been known by this title since Nurbano's time. No need to change the title. 113.203.150.188 (talk) 02:19, 1 March 2016 (UTC)

Popular culture and Ottoman court etiquette are two different things. Also, the rules are clear: no woman other than the sultan's own female blood relatives and main wife use the title of sultan . The references you've cited present a clear inconsistency with defined Ottoman titles and therefore they are invalid.190.218.117.86 (talk) 16:57, 1 March 2016 (UTC)

This is the point, whether she was a main wife or not. Whatever sources we can find, half of them supports the Hatun theory, the other half supports Sultan theory. Popular culture is defined from what had actually happened in the past, the existence of this woman wasn't thousand of years ago that we can assume the popular culture has adopted "myths". Also I would like to repeat a point I made earlier, the interview with her alleged descendant cannot be overlooked. Interviews are constantly being used in Wikipedia for every notable person, why neglect this one? If that is wrong, Wikipedia should never ever cite an interview source in any other article as well. Above all, her being mother of heir apparent is not a popular culture but a fact. While she was serving as the mother to heir apparent she was considered a Sultan's family member (Ottoman court etiquette), hence the title. 113.203.156.141 (talk) 23:52, 1 March 2016 (UTC)

First of all, those references you've cited are: 1) popular culture based books 2) recent and based on art and theatrical depictions; as such, these references are unfounded and misinformed when it comes to Ottoman history. Therefore they can't be used. And for your information, she wasn't the mother, sister, aunt or main wife of the sultan: she wasn't a sultana, even when a theatre play calls her that. On the case of Roxelana, it was a nickname she was given that didn't elevate or lowered her status and wasn't a direct reflection of Ottoman culture but more of the influence she had on history. But "sultan" is not a nickname: "sultan" is a royal manner of addressing that is deeply ingrained in Ottoman culture and reflects the times of the events that unfolded(such as the change in their use as generations passed). "Sultan" had many meanings throughout history and did reflect the status and the way of interacting of the times; if we want to accurately depict history then, at last, she's a "hatun". One of the alledged theories points to her mother being addressed in that manner. In the times of Suleyman, not everyone could be addressed that way. The reason I call for a page title is to respect Ottoman customs and history, nothing more. 190.218.117.86 (talk) 05:20, 3 March 2016 (UTC)

Also, let's not forget that many of those artistic/theatrical depictions are based on rumors and fictitious creations for the sake of entertainment. If you treat Ottoman history as merely entertainment, you're not doing your job to inform people. The title of this page has to be changed and needs to be protected from any form of cultural erasure. 190.218.117.86 (talk) 05:26, 3 March 2016 (UTC)

Excuse me one more time. It is explicitly explained that the title "Haseki Sultan" was created when Hürrem married Suleyman. It is also stated that before "Haseki Sultan" all concubines used the title hatun. If "Haseki Sultan" was created solely for Hurrem when they legally married, breaking a 200 hundred tradition of not marrying, why should anyone assume that other concubines of the sultan would start using "sultan" if they didn't marry him? The change of titles was to differentiate a legal wife from a concubine/consort/unrecognized wife or however you want to call it. 190.218.117.86 (talk) 05:37, 3 March 2016 (UTC)

A few sources does claim she was a wife. Specially every Circassion origin theory. We cannot overlook them. Hurrem and Mahidevran were 2 main consorts. Please see meaning of "Birinci Kadin" in whatever Ottoman Dictionary you like. Birinci Kadin was used for wives only, Brinici Kadin was not used for concubines or ordinary consorts, Birinci Kadin meant First Wife/Senior Consort. Although Sultans didn't used to lawfully wed their wives, Birinci Kadins were considered and treated just like lawfully wedded wives. Even so, a Sultan was NOT allowed to have more than 4 Kadins at a time (Brinci Kadin, Baş Kadın or Sultan Kadin was the first ranking wife), but can have as much concubines as he liked. This tells how important and high ranking Birinci Kadins were (see any ottoman dictionary you like to see what Birinci Kadin means and what was their positions in early history of Ottoman.) Though Hurrem was more favored, Mahidevran was still a wife and mother of heir apparent. I think it is obvious that the exception would have been made at that time for a non-Haseki consort to be called a Sultan. Hatun is not a Title at all. Hatun is used for every other lady in Turkish and Persian language. Even lowest ranking maids of the Harem were called Hatun out of respect. If Sultana cannot be used for a "Birinci Kadin" then Hatun should also not be used. People have done a great job depicting fake ottoman culture. Please consider all sources available. Everyone is emphasizing on only one source for the subjected woman that is of Leslie P. Peirce's and simply ignoring those sources/references/theories they don't like. Please be fair. I oppose changing the title from Sultan to Hatun. If you must, then make the title read as "Mahidevran" only. 125.209.82.212 (talk) 15:03, 3 March 2016 (UTC)