Talk:Doctor Who

The Doctors Fascination with Earth

I think it would benefit to add in the premise that the Doctors fascination with Earth possibly stems from the Doctor being half human as revealed in the 1996 movie. I realize that the movie wasn't originally accepted as canon, but with the inclusion of Mcgann in the 50th anniversary special and the Big Finish audio stories featuring Mcgann, it would seem the events of the movie should be accepted into canon.PabloTheMagnanimous (talk) 17:15, 3 February 2017 (UTC)

No. I recommend WP:OUTUNIVERSE. We do not talk about "canon": we talk about what reliable sources say about a TV show. Bondegezou (talk) 17:20, 3 February 2017 (UTC)

We don't have to say anything about canon, I was simply bringing up canon to reinforce my point about adding the comment about the Doctors fascination possibly stemming from the Doctor being half human as revealed in the 1996 movie. I think it holds more credibility to point to events from actually released material in the Who universe rather than sources who talk about the show.PabloTheMagnanimous (talk) 17:26, 3 February 2017 (UTC)

You need to cite a secondary source that makes that analysis. An encyclopaedia isn't supposed to do that. DonQuixote (talk) 17:28, 3 February 2017 (UTC)

Series 11

A draft has been start for Series 11 at Draft:Doctor Who (series 11); contributions are welcome, but the article should not be moved to the mainspace until the series has began filming. Alex|The|Whovian^? 03:41, 20 February 2017 (UTC)

Five years confirmed

The article states that, "In April 2015, Steven Moffat confirmed that Doctor Who would run for at least another five years, extending the show until 2020." I dispute the use of the word "confirmed" and suggest "predicted" instead. User:AlexTheWhovian disagrees. We've been discussing this at Draft talk:Doctor Who (series 11), but AlexTW pointed out the use of the phrase here.

As far as I can see, the citation given merely quotes an interview with Moffat. He's making a personal prediction of what he thinks will happen. It's not a decision that is within his power, nor is it a decision the BBC would take (when have the BBC ever confirmed a series will still be going five years hence?). AlexTW contends this constitutes an official statement by the BBC because the citation is a BBC News article, but that appears to me to misunderstand the editorial independence of BBC News when it is covering entertainment news pertaining to the BBC. The article is carefully phrased to be clear that this is something Moffat said: it doesn't state this to be a fact about reality. Bondegezou (talk) 13:57, 20 February 2017 (UTC)

Radio Times gives some more context with Steven referencing discussions with BBC Worldwide. However both Radio Times and BBC appear to be sourcing from DWM - so someone might like to track down the issue and get the full reference and context. Cheers, Dresken (talk) 18:31, 20 February 2017 (UTC)

Thanks for the RT article. Those are positive comments and I'm happy to have them in the article, but I still don't think there's anything there that confirms the show will run another 5 years. This is a personal prediction by someone leaving the show. An informed prediction, sure, but not a confirmation. Bondegezou (talk) 23:58, 20 February 2017 (UTC)

Eleventh Doctor is Tenth Regeneration, Not Twelfth

The article erroneously refers to the Eleventh Doctor as the Doctor's twelfth regeneration. He was the tenth.

First Doctor = Original Second Doctor = First Regeneration Third Doctor = Second Regeneration Fourth Doctor = Third Regeneration Fifth Doctor = Fourth Regeneration: This is mentioned in The Five Doctors special. Richard Hurndall as the First Doctor asks Peter Davison as the Fifth: "Regeneration?" To which he replies, "Fourth." The First Doctor then says, "So there are FIVE of me now!" Sixth Doctor = Fifth Regeneration Seventh Doctor = Sixth Regeneration Eighth Doctor = Seventh Regeneration Ninth Doctor = Eighth Regeneration Tenth Doctor = Ninth Regeneration Eleventh Doctor = Tenth Regeneration Twelfth Doctor = Eleventh Regeneration Thirteenth Doctor = Twelfth Regeneration

Thus, if The Doctor were not given a new set of regenerations, the Thirteenth Doctor would be unable to regenerate and would die. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2601:645:C300:42D0:E182:1B8F:B199:C723 (talk) 20:00, 28 March 2017 (UTC)

See The Time of the Doctor. DonQuixote (talk) 20:06, 28 March 2017 (UTC)

All explained in the linked episode above. Also, here is a chart I like to keep handy to explain this sort of issue. Enjoy. -- Alex^TW 21:53, 28 March 2017 (UTC)

You left out the War Doctor. So you are wrong. Oakymut2016 (talk) 22:29, 4 April 2017 (UTC)

New Reference Site

Given the imminent release of series 10 on April 15, 2017, why not add The Doctor Who Companion as a reference site.

A good resource for readers/viewers, who want to check what last year was all about before the start of series 10 http://thedoctorwhocompanion.com/2017/03/23/march-2016-17-one-year-in-doctor-who/ — Preceding unsigned comment added by John verbic (talk • contribs) 06:07, 3 April 2017 (UTC)

This is an unofficial fan website that does not conform to WP:V. -- Alex^TW 06:12, 3 April 2017 (UTC)

Pearl Mackie: now or when?

Is Pearl Mackie the companion in Dr Who right now? This is the question behind a recent edit dispute. Should she be listed in the infobox as the companion (with Matt Lucas) now or not until her first episode airs?

Several editors are defending the current position that she's not the companion until her first episode starts broadcasting. Others, including myself, disagree. I think that position falls foul of WP:INUNIVERSE. Mackie is clearly already in the role because that first episode has been made, she's all over promotional materials, she's presented that way and, thus, reliable sources have responded and describe her in that role. Do a Google news search and there are hundreds of articles talking about Mackie as the companion in the present tense. Waiting for her face to actually appear on screen is privileging the fiction over the reality of making and promoting a television show, and Wikipedia favours the latter over the former.

The principle of least surprise also argues that we should be listing her now. That's what readers will expect. They'll be coming to the article to learn about the new season and the new companion. The infobox should reflect that.

Pearl Mackie is the companion in Dr Who right now, because Dr Who is a production, not a fictional universe. Wikipedia follows reliable sources, and reliable sources describe her as the companion now. Bondegezou (talk) 16:26, 5 April 2017 (UTC)

Reliable sources say that she's the companion in future, as yet unaired (ie unpublished), episodes. Things in manuscripts aren't true in terms of writing about fictional characters until they're published as they're not verifiable by the general public. DonQuixote (talk) 17:06, 5 April 2017 (UTC)

I always think it is good to refer to policy in these cases - however after quickly reading WP:FUTURE - I'm actually more confused about this. Maybe there is something more specific that someone knows about? Cheers, Dresken (talk) 19:36, 5 April 2017 (UTC)

Per the documentation of {{Infobox television}}, and the rules and consensus's set by WP:TV: put simply, no episodes has been publicly released where she has been credited as a companion, and hence she does not get included as a companion until such an episode exists; this also applies especially to the updating of the number of series - it does not get updated until the series is publicly available via its airing. Honestly, it's a week and a half away, and for some reason, editors always seem to think that Doctor Who is outside of the Television WikiProject and its consensus's. -- Alex^TW 22:26, 5 April 2017 (UTC)

Reliable sources say she is the companion right now: they use the present tense, not the future tense. WP:TV is applying a WP:LOCALCONSENSUS of dubious nature. Bondegezou (talk) 09:06, 7 April 2017 (UTC)

Please provide an example of a publicly available episode where she has been credited as the companion. Cheers. -- Alex^TW 09:07, 7 April 2017 (UTC)

Has anyone EVER been "credited" as a companion? As far as i know, the credits have only ever has characters names - none have ever said which ones are companions and which ones are not. 12:51, 7 April 2017 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 46.226.49.233 (talk)

I think we can read within context and realise that Alex meant credited as the respective character.

@Bondegezou: It's not dubious when it's based on acadaemic consensus of not treating unpublished work as if it were published. And I highly doubt that only a handful of editors are involved in WP:TV, so WP:LOCALCONSENSUS goes right out the window, I'm sorry to say. DonQuixote (talk) 14:40, 7 April 2017 (UTC)

Doesn't matter how many editors: WP:TV cannot overrule basic Wikipedia principles.

It would fail RS to cite an unpublished work, but no-one's suggesting that. We're suggesting citing the dozens of published RS reports that describe Mackie now as the companion. You wish to ignore those secondary sources and rely purely on a primary source (an episode being broadcast): that violates WP:PRIMARY. This obsession with the primary material is a common flaw in TV and film coverage on Wikipedia, but WP:PRIMARY is absolutely clear that we look to secondary sources over primary sources. Any reasoning that privileges the episode itself over secondary sources is in violation of Wikipedia policy. Bondegezou (talk) 16:22, 7 April 2017 (UTC)

As mentioned before, reliable sources are saying that she's the companion for series 10--a body of work that hasn't been published yet. Please stop quoting out of context.

And infoboxes are for summarising published works related to the subject. DonQuixote (talk) 16:27, 7 April 2017 (UTC)

Is there any point to this discussion? There's no rush to change anything, so can't we wait for just 8 days, when the "The Pilot" will be broadcast. It's not long! TedEdwards 16:33, 7 April 2017 (UTC)

To the IP... What do you think the opening credits are? I'll post a link at WT:TV for the project members to come here and expand on this topic. -- Alex^TW 17:47, 7 April 2017 (UTC)

Hang on a second - we need to wait for someone to be credited in a role before we say that they're playing that role? when did that rule get written, cause it's utterly stupid!! Does that mean that when the new doctor is announced and the rest of the world is talking about it and publishing reliable sources left right and centre, wiki won't be able to put down that he he's playing the doctor until the first episode of series 11 has actually aired?!?! The concept of waiting till someone has played a role before being able to put it on wikipedia is ridiculous. 94.1.61.64 (talk) 16:43, 8 April 2017 (UTC)

That is perfectly correct, per WP:CRYSTAL. As DonQuixote said, infoboxes list what has happened, not what will happen - the prose, of the actual body and content of the article, that's where such information is added until then. -- Alex^TW 16:45, 8 April 2017 (UTC)

@94.1.61.64: This is an encyclopaedia not a newspaper. Encyclopaedias are written after the fact. DonQuixote (talk) 17:55, 8 April 2017 (UTC)

This should wait until her first episode is aired, per DonQuixote. Lost on  Belmont ^3200N_1000W  (talk) 19:02, 8 April 2017 (UTC)

Sorry, but which of the 5 things in crystal does it break? It doesn't break 1, as it is "almost certain to take place", 2 is irrelevant (companions don't follow a predetermined pattern) - it doesn't break 3 as we're not extrapolating anything, 4 is irrelevant (companions are not scientific theories) and it doesn't break 5, as it's not a rumour. But hey, if wiki wants to look stupid this time next year when it is not able to put the name of the person who everyone will then know is playing the doctor beside 'doctor', then go ahead and stick to your stupid nonsensical rule. 2A02:C7D:15A:AB00:CC44:E0EA:7FE6:3EDE (talk) 19:44, 8 April 2017 (UTC)

Ps - if you're being extremely technical and overly worried about reporting the future, then why have Matt Lucas? he's not a companion NOW, as there are no episodes on for him to be companion in currently airing. He may have been a companion in the last thing that aired, but suppose he leaves the show? Suppose he isn't credited as a companion again? You're breaking wiki rules by "extrapolating" that he will continue be a companion in future unaired episodes!!! 2A02:C7D:15A:AB00:CC44:E0EA:7FE6:3EDE (talk) 19:51, 8 April 2017 (UTC)

PPS - I've just realised My IP has somehow changed from earlier - for the benefit of admins, these last two comments are the same user as 94.1.61.64. this is not an attempt to pretend that multiple people disagree, just a genuine IP change. 2A02:C7D:15A:AB00:CC44:E0EA:7FE6:3EDE (talk) 19:54, 8 April 2017 (UTC)

"In particular" means that those are specific examples and not every possible example.

Look, it's quite simple. Donald Trump was elected President of the United States on 8 November 2016. He didn't become President until 20 January 2017. Similarly, Pearl Mackie was announced to be the series 10 companion in April 2016. She filmed scenes in early 2017. She won't be the series 10 companion until it airs. There's no such thing as "companion elect". And Matt Lucas appeared in The Return of Doctor Mysterio. DonQuixote (talk) 23:15, 8 April 2017 (UTC)

Trump was not doing the work of President until 20 January. However, Mackie has been doing the work of companion -- filming, publicity -- for many months now. So your analogy doesn't work. We have to rely, as per Wikipedia principles, on what reliable sources say, and reliable sources say she is (present tense) the companion.

Privileging the opening credits is to put a primary source above secondary sources, in contravention of policy (WP:PRIMARY). Bondegezou (talk) 13:49, 9 April 2017 (UTC)

Seriously? That's called being an actor--companions aren't real people, they're fictional characters. Mackie is an actor who will portray a fictional character, a companion, in series 10--which is what reliable sources are saying. Context matters. The fictional character Bill hasn't appeared in an episode yet as it hasn't aired (unpublished work) and shouldn't go in the infobox. DonQuixote (talk) 13:57, 9 April 2017 (UTC)

To the IP: We will probably be able to put the name of the Thirteenth Doctor's actor in the infobox this time next year, as the Thirteenth Doctor is almost certain to appear at the end of this year's Christmas special after the regeneration, so will have appeared in an aired episode. It's what they did in 2013, when Peter Capaldi took over the role. So doesn't that make your arguement about Wikipedia looking stupid redundant? And also, please see WP:NORUSH. You'll see that this discussion is pointless, as the infobox is being changed anyway in less than a week, when Pearl Mackie appears in an aired episode. TedEdwards 16:49, 9 April 2017 (UTC)

Can I just point out that if you're taking the opening credits as an indication for who is a companion, then you'll have to re-do the companion list - Bruno Langley and Noel Clarke were never in the opening credits (and John Barrowman didn't get in them with the Ninth Doctor either), but John Simm was. 2A02:C7D:15A:AB00:19C3:8D6:6DA0:427D (talk) 11:32, 10 April 2017 (UTC)

John Hurt's War Doctor

John Hurt's War Doctor should be added to the list because if anyone has watched the Doctor Who 50th Anniversary Episode -- The Day of the Doctor -- he is listed in the Credits of the Doctor as the fourth name from the top. Here is how it is shown in the Credits of the episode...

Matt Smith, David Tennant <--- There should be a note that David Tennant's "11th" Doctor used a regeneration cycle to repair his body but redirected it the rest of the Regeneration Energy to his severed hand, Christopher Eccleston, John Hurt <--- This shows that even though he is the War Doctor he is the 9th one in the line who at the end REGAINS his name as the Doctor, Paul McGann, Sylvester McCoy, Colin Baker, Peter Davidson, Tom Baker, Jon Pertwee, Patrick Troughton, William Hartnell,

Also it should be considered that though Peter Capaldi is considered the 13th Doctor (also mentioned in "The Day of the Doctor") that he should be considered the 14th Doctor due to David Tennant's Doctors 11th Regeneration was redirected to his severed hand as everyone can see in Season 4 Episodes 12 and 13. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Trekkie38 (talk • contribs) 00:58, 8 April 2017 (UTC)

Please review Writing About Fiction. DonQuixote (talk) 01:42, 8 April 2017 (UTC)

@Trekkie38: There have been multiple discussions on that. Please see the archives of this talk page. -- Alex^TW 01:51, 8 April 2017 (UTC)