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I've just linked two recent dna studies. https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-017-17124-4 and https://www.biorxiv.org/content/biorxiv/early/2017/12/08/230797.full.pdf. Could someone please expand on what I've written if you have a chance to read these very interesting papers? <!-- Template:Unsigned --><small class="autosigned">—&nbsp;Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[User:MairiC|MairiC]] ([[User talk:MairiC#top|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/MairiC|contribs]]) 16:38, 22 January 2018 (UTC)</small> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->
I've just linked two recent dna studies. https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-017-17124-4 and https://www.biorxiv.org/content/biorxiv/early/2017/12/08/230797.full.pdf. Could someone please expand on what I've written if you have a chance to read these very interesting papers? <!-- Template:Unsigned --><small class="autosigned">—&nbsp;Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[User:MairiC|MairiC]] ([[User talk:MairiC#top|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/MairiC|contribs]]) 16:38, 22 January 2018 (UTC)</small> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->

I hope it's okay but I just edited the paragraph about the Ballynahatty genome and the Rathlin genomes. Ballynahatty was from the farming population but the Rathlin genomes were early Bronze Age. It wasn't clear in the paragraph saying that the farming community was from the Middle East and Eastern Europe which isn't accurate. I've also added two new genetic studies. One is done by the same team that released the paper on Ballynahatty and Rathlin.


== Iceland in opening ==
== Iceland in opening ==

Revision as of 17:03, 22 January 2018

Former good articleIrish people was one of the Social sciences and society good articles, but it has been removed from the list. There are suggestions below for improving the article to meet the good article criteria. Once these issues have been addressed, the article can be renominated. Editors may also seek a reassessment of the decision if they believe there was a mistake.
Article milestones
DateProcessResult
October 21, 2005Peer reviewReviewed
December 23, 2005Good article nomineeListed
July 18, 2008Good article reassessmentKept
July 5, 2010Good article reassessmentDelisted
Current status: Delisted good article



October redux

It appears there has been quite the edit war regarding image formatting here, with several edit warriors blocked for a short while. I have full-protected this page for a few days so that after those blocks expire the participants can come here and discuss it like adults instead of edit warring. I hope it is now clear to all involved that edit warring is absolutely not tolerated and if it recurs after the protection expires blocks will be significantly harsher. Beeblebrox (talk) 19:21, 12 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Black Irish origins

Scientific racism irish

Does this image relate at all to the origins of the term Black Irish? or is this not really related? (I had tried to search for images at the commons related to this term, nothing came up, then i found this.) It might be a good image in a section on irish/english relations.Mercurywoodrose (talk) 03:24, 7 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

That looks like 19th Century English/American-Anglo anti-Irish (as well as Anti-Catholic) propaganda when Irish emigres fled the Great Famine and entered into North America and mainland England. It was also pseudo-science designed to besmirch the Irish immigrants putting them in a different category of "subhuman", as was the general view of people of African descent by American and English society at the time.--71.177.31.147 (talk) 00:54, 13 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Black Irish is only a social term for Irish people who are darker than the average Irish person who is quite pale ( Celtic complexion).According to studies done by the Harvard University in the 30's on the Irish population, less than 3% have black hair anyway. In 1997 the Irish Medical Journal showed that 67% of the Irish have brown hair of various shades, while the rest have various shades of blonde and red hair. Though the pale blond shade is less common." Thus the main hair colors in the Irish population are brown, blonde,and red. Black as a whole is in the minority. The most common eye color in Ireland is blue in over half of the Irish population (ScottishDna Project 2014). Over 80% have blue or green eyes, brown eyes again are in the minority. The Irish Ministry of Health, also acknowledges in 2013 that over 75% of the Irish population to have Celtic complexion.By Celtic complexion, the following characteristics are associated with are light-colored hair, blue, green, hazel eyes, and a pale skin which doesn't tan or tans with difficulty and freckles. Thus a " Black Irish" is an Irish person who doesn't fit in those pigmentation characteristics. Nevertheless the term was rarely used in Ireland, rather by the Irish diaspora, thus could be considered a myth or a mere social term. There is no biological or scientific basis to differentiate a black-haired Irish person from the Irish people, they are genetically closely related.The Iberian connection is totally irrelevant, since most of the Irish, Scottish and Welsh males belong to the R1b-L21/S145 subclades, which is scarce in Iberia and southwest France. Mcdonnolly (talk) 12:41, 28 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]

News on genetics

http://newswatch.nationalgeographic.com/2013/11/21/the-genographic-project-returns-to-ireland-to-reveal-dna-results/

Pipo — Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.203.97.65 (talk) 04:40, 8 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I've just linked two recent dna studies. https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-017-17124-4 and https://www.biorxiv.org/content/biorxiv/early/2017/12/08/230797.full.pdf. Could someone please expand on what I've written if you have a chance to read these very interesting papers? — Preceding unsigned comment added by MairiC (talkcontribs) 16:38, 22 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I hope it's okay but I just edited the paragraph about the Ballynahatty genome and the Rathlin genomes. Ballynahatty was from the farming population but the Rathlin genomes were early Bronze Age. It wasn't clear in the paragraph saying that the farming community was from the Middle East and Eastern Europe which isn't accurate. I've also added two new genetic studies. One is done by the same team that released the paper on Ballynahatty and Rathlin.

Iceland in opening

"the main groups that interacted with the Irish in the Middle Ages include the Picts, Scots, and the Vikings. Due to this contact, Icelanders are noted for having some Irish descent. Approximately forty percent of the settlement population of Iceland were Gaels that originally came from Ireland or what is now Scotland.[8]" - possibly mention that the 40% is mostly inherited from the X chromosome (women). Shappin Trally (talk) 08:46, 14 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Irish Ancestry

Apologies if this has been mentioned a few times before, I checked the archives and couldn't find a post about this. But why does the Irish population number state people who claim ancestry while most other denonyms do not. Granted I have not checked all 200+ countries but all the ones I have checked so far just state a number and don't go mention claims of ancestry. Why is this? (not saying there is anything against it just a bit curious about it) 82.20.70.162 (talk) 17:29, 29 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I guess just because the research in the matter is available. The Banner talk 18:28, 29 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Offensive People Graphic

This article refers to people who are ethnically irish.

There are several people in that face-infographic who are ethnically pure english. Boyle, Stoker and the duke of wellington for instance. Others are either ethnically lowland scots like George Best or anglo-irish like Hyde

Can someone remove them? This is a highly insulting article. The presence of the colonist family of Boyle in particular. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 37.228.218.114 (talk) 23:32, 10 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

No, as this infographic is a neutral display of people born in Ireland or of Irish descent. The Banner talk 23:56, 10 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Video clip on the origins of the British and the Irish.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JEL7nCM5itg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vFQiuGvxMd0 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.73.133.236 (talk) 15:39, 3 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Infobox

@The Banner: The infobox is only slightly shorter, but now all the photos are sloppily placed and it's difficult to read. Would you please put my changes back? --Steverci (talk) 01:53, 30 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]

No! Your design of the infobox took half of my screen and was far too massive. Would have made the article unreadable for users of the mobile version of Wikipedia. The Banner talk 09:59, 30 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Wikipedia is an online encyclopedia, so that's not really a strong argument. Even so, the infobox is virtually the same size, but your design would make it difficult to select photos. --Steverci (talk) 01:26, 31 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]
@The Banner: If you will not defend your reverts, I'm going to restore my edits. --Steverci (talk) 19:20, 4 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Sometimes I have a life outside Wikipedia, sorry for the inconvenience caused by that.
Secondly, look in the archives for earlier discussions about the photo gallery. There is a clear consensus to keep the present presentation. (archive 5) The Banner talk 23:39, 4 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, but you've been here editing in the meantime. Anyway, just had a look at the whole thing, it was a 4-1 vote against you, then Mabuska changed his vote. And now I'm saying Option two is better, so it's 4-2. It's also worth pointing out there was never an agreement for Option one, Lfdder just thought it was becoming a waste of time and let you have your way. --Steverci (talk) 16:55, 5 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]
If you go on a hiatus again, the infobox will have to stay the previous way until you take the time to discuss this. --Steverci (talk) 02:06, 26 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]
This is not a vote, this is about consensus. The consensus is to keep the present style. The Banner talk 07:11, 26 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]
And as I stated before: your presentation was extremely wide. It took up nearly half of my (wide) screen. It will be an even bigger intrusion for people with a smaller screen or the mobile users. You have to think about them too. Personal taste is not a concern here. The Banner talk 07:19, 26 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Again this is an online encyclopedia so that was their mistake, and also again by far the biggest problem they could have is it would be frustratingly difficult to select a picture with the current collage. Granted, we'd just simply have to adjust the width for my collage so it's roughly the same size as yours.. --Steverci (talk) 01:32, 27 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

T. E. Lawrence?

What makes T. E. Lawrence Irish? His father was from Ireland, but that doesn't mean that Lawrence himself was Irish. Are there any sources that call him Irish or any evidence that he considered himself Irish? --64.132.0.201 (talk) 01:12, 22 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for warning that somebody had changed the infobox is something ridiculous wide and with strange pictures. Reverted now. The Banner talk 04:30, 22 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]
No problem --64.132.0.201 (talk) 18:56, 22 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Ethnicity is generally determined by parentage. As his father was from a long-established Anglo-Irish family, it can therefore be said that the was half Irish. On the matter of ethnicity, his mother was 1/4 welsh. --Uamaol (talk) 18:13, 25 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Total population

"c. 70–80 million worldwide". Can we please make clear the difference between Irish people on the one hand, and people of Irish descent? The actual Irish population is far smaller than the "total population" cited! Fergananim (talk) 17:42, 5 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]

We are talking about the "ethnic group" and that is quite a bit more than just Irish people. The Banner talk 19:02, 5 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Then why is the article called Irish people? Fergananim (talk) 17:44, 10 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Origins and antecedents

I'm fairly sure I have commented upon this before, but ... why does an article on IRELAND start with "Prehistoric settlement of the British Isles" [sic], and quotes from the National Museum of WALES? Fergananim (talk) 17:48, 5 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Perhaps because the Celts did not only live on the island of Ireland but also on other islands and in regions as nowadays Wales? The Banner talk 19:00, 5 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
No. There is not the slightest evidence for any 'Celtic' presence in Ireland, past or present. There remains only one valid use of the term Celtic, and ethnicity is not one of them. Fergananim (talk) 17:44, 10 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Unreliable sources

Why are sources like Seamus McManus, Bob Quin, Irish Central, Stephen Oppenheimer and Bryan Sykes, used as sources? The first three utterly misuse source material, the last two woefully misunderstand them. Are people not aware of actual Irish history books? You know, written by historians??? Fergananim (talk) 18:47, 5 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]

You should allow some time to respond to this, now I have reverted youedtits. Could you explain a bit more clearer what is the problem with those sources (with evidence) instead of chopping everything away? The Banner talk 18:57, 5 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Apologies, I should have done as you said. Nevertheless, why is it that a folklorist, a TV producer, an American website, and two British scientists, are considered appropriate sources for a historical article? Fergananim (talk) 17:27, 10 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Well, I think Mac Manus is an undesirable source. There's no shortage of good history books written by modern scholars, and no reason to rely upon the view of romanticist written almost a century ago. A simple way to determine if a source is reliable is to see if the author is cited by his/her peers in the field. If modern historians don't use so-and-so as a source for early Irish history, we probably shouldn't either.--Brianann MacAmhlaidh (talk) 21:54, 10 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
I agree. I can't say that I have ever heard of those names in regards to proper works on Irish history. I concur that a lot of older stuff falls into romanticism, but so does some stuff that is perpetuated by "expert" historians today, however there is some older stuff from a century ago that is of high regard, even if it does have a nationalist twang to it. Mabuska (talk) 12:47, 11 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Ethno-national nature of article compromised by recent edits

The most recent edits of the table include a multitude of people who do not fit into the ethno-national definition of 'Irish' as favoured by this article - namely that the Irish are a 'nation and ethnic group.' To give one example, Jonathan Swift was in fact Anglo-Irish, and would not have considered himself as part of an Irish nation or ethnic group. Aardwolf A380 (talk) 23:53, 12 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]

What is happening is that an IP is adding a silly big array of very dubious people. I consider that vandalism so I have reverted it, like many times before. The Banner talk 19:34, 25 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
"Anglo-Irish (Irish: Angla-Éireannach) was a term used primarily in the 19th and early 20th centuries to identify a privileged social class in Ireland, whose members were the descendants and successors of the Protestant Ascendancy."
Being born in a country/region, or having parentage of a country/region, usually makes you of that country/region. A fair deal of those which would have met and still meet the conditions of being Anglo-Irish, see themselves as Irish of English descent, even those of the unionist community. Uamaol (talk) 16:36, 29 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]

" agreed to indentured labor contracts with full and informed knowledge of what that entailed" & NPOV

Wikipedia can't say this in it's own voice, we need an attributed quote. And as other sources disagree, we need them as well. Doug Weller (talk) 05:24, 2 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

NI flag

Northern Ireland doesn't yet have a flag. Gob Lofa (talk) 12:09, 28 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]

You could possibly have the following: Northern Ireland or United Kingdom, just as these exist:  England or United Kingdom. Regards Denisarona (talk) 16:35, 28 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Hard to see cross-community support for either any time soon. Gob Lofa (talk) 16:43, 28 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
The standing consensus was that Northern Ireland is not an independent state so the flag of the parent state has to be used. What new arguments do you have to change that consensus? The Banner talk 18:37, 28 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Poppycock. Explain then the use of the Scottish flag in similar circumstances. Gob Lofa (talk) 18:49, 28 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
No serious arguments? The Banner talk 19:08, 28 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
That's fair enough. Gob Lofa (talk) 19:16, 28 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
We are talking about the standing consensus on this article, not on the consensus somewhere else. The Banner talk 19:30, 28 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
I disagree; so does Snowded. Where's your consensus? Gob Lofa (talk) 19:33, 28 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Still, where are your arguments that the standing consensus needs to be overturned? (I hope you are able to see that the UK-flaf was in use by and large from August 2013) The Banner talk 22:21, 28 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Northern Ireland doesn't have a flag. IMHO, using the Union Jack for NI, would merely create confusion here, as it's already being used for the UK. GoodDay (talk) 20:47, 28 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Northern Ireland is part of the United Kingdom. It would correctly state both states existing at the island at present. The Banner talk 22:11, 28 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
NI isn't in Great Britain. GoodDay (talk) 22:13, 28 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Northern Ireland is part of the United Kingdom but I admit, on the island of Ireland. The Banner talk 00:11, 29 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Proposed solution

Place the 'Republic of Ireland' with the other sovereign states in the infobox. Then combine the Northern Ireland & Great Britain entries into one entry - 'United Kingdom'. GoodDay (talk) 22:17, 28 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]

And since the current Great Britain estimate is very rough (check its source discussion) we need hardly budge it by just changing Britain to UK. Sounds good to me. That way only sovereign states are listed with (ahem) recognized flags. Juan Riley (talk) 22:47, 28 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
The alternative is listing only Ireland (the island) without a flag...perhaps a shamrock? Juan Riley (talk) 22:56, 28 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Happy to move to UK and have implemented that. If a NI figure is required it could be put under the UK figure this avoiding the contentious flag issue ----Snowded TALK 23:27, 28 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
I go with GoodDay's recent edit. Though I will admit to question marks concerning the numbers. Juan Riley (talk) 00:20, 29 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
But folk must realize all such numbers are hand-waiving estimates. Juan Riley (talk) 00:22, 29 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Proposal for the deletion of all the galleries of personalities from the articles about ethnic groups

Seemingly there is a significant number of commentators which support the general removal of infobox collages. I think there is a great opportunity to get a general agreement on this matter. It is clear that it has to be a broad consensus, which must involve as many editors as possible, otherwise there is a big risk for this decision to be challenged in the near future. I opened a Request for comment process, hoping that more people will adhere to this proposal. Please comment here. Hahun (talk) 23:37, 2 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]

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New data Celtic DNA

This recent study (http://dx.doi.org/10.1038/nature14230) may require a revision about the Irish-Celtic DNA section. According to the study there is no modal Celtic DNA, at least in the UK. My guess, and this is pure speculation, is that, when compared with the UK, Irish most closely resembles Welsh DNA and this study indicates that the Welsh DNA is of another category from traditionally Celtic areas such as Cornwall.Utopian100 (talk) 19:07, 12 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

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Infobox at odds with lede

So this article explicitly states in the lede: The Irish people (Irish: Muintir na hÉireann or Na hÉireannaigh) are a Celtic nation and ethnic group native to the island of Ireland, who share a common Irish ancestry, identity and culture. In the infobox it states Regions with significant populations: Republic of Ireland 4,581,269 (2011)[2] Northern Ireland 1,810,863 (2011)[3]

Basically the total populations of both the RoI and NI have been taken and simply classified as all belonging to a Celtic nation and ethnic group who share a common Irish ancestry, identity and culture? Yeah, that's total bullcrap. At best all the article should state is that it refers to people from Ireland.

Then if you take into consideration the "Irish diaspora", not all of them descend from the Celtic nation and ethnic group, indeed what is a true Irish ethnic group considering the amount of migration and mingling between various different peoples on the island over the centuries and even millenia.

Article is a joke. Mabuska (talk) 22:38, 9 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Feel free to improve. The Banner talk 22:44, 9 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Will be some undertaking, care to help? Mabuska (talk) 22:52, 9 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
You had at least four year time to spot the fact that the article was lacking in quality. Why the harsh response now? The Banner talk 23:34, 9 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
The article has not been the same throughout that period and things get missed especially with a watch list as big as mine. Why your lack of improving the article either in that time frame? Mabuska (talk) 08:16, 10 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Because I am Dutch and no expert. The Banner talk 11:11, 10 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Coulda fooled me going by all your previous interactions and views given above, but regardless I will sandbox and work on it. Mabuska (talk) 12:22, 10 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
I live in and on Ireland. And my main concern is to keep the article neutral and fight vandalism. The Banner talk 19:22, 12 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

ireland is considered one of the six celtic nations along with cornwall, britanny, isle of man, scotland and wales so I fail to understand your grievance.Chris hazzard1981 (talk) 19:00, 10 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Re-read what I'm on about. Also if you are the same Chris Hazzard as the SF politician then you have an obvious conflict of interest on this issue. Mabuska (talk) 14:24, 12 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Though to point out, obviously you feel Irish and that you are part of the Celtic nation, but how does the surname Hazzard fit into that? Obviously it is all parts of a whole but not all Irish are Celts. Mabuska (talk) 14:47, 12 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Well I am certainly culturally celtic and partly ethnicically celtic. By "partly ethnically" I mean that I am sure some of my ancestors were celts in Gaelic Ireland, inter-ethnic breeding pretty much guarantees this. I would say even Ian Paisley snr was partly ethnically celtic.

Celtic culture is the indigenous culture of this island, which I and everyone else was born and raised in. The most pro-union and anti-gaelic culture place in the North of Ireland (shankill road) derives its name from Gaeilge which I think speaks for itself.

If that does not make Ireland a celtic nation then I dont know what does.

I am not the sf Chris Hazzard by the way but I am related to him.Chris hazzard1981 (talk) 15:07, 12 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Actually Celtic culture originates from central Europe and thus is not indigenous to Ireland. You see that's the issue with the article at the moment. You are partially ethnically Celtic, and so am I, but how do any of course know for sure? Academics are now rectifying the mistakes of 19th century antiquarians in stating that Celtic is a culture (language included) not an actual ethnic group. No one is entirely "Celtic". And not everyone here is brought up in Celtic culture but many of those would consider themselves Irish. Indeed the English and Scots culture and influences is as much part of Irishness as Gaelic. The Union has no bearing on the matter or what the people of the Shankill think about Gaelic or whatever. What does matter that as Irish people (being from the island of Ireland) many of them aren't of Celtic culture or maybe even ethnicity. See the article is a confused mess. Mabuska (talk) 18:39, 12 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Well yes but there is no evidence Irish celtic culture does not originate in Ireland. I think every person has an upbringing with a celtic backround, be it because the town they live in derives its name from Irish, they play hurling, they live in an area that for thousands of years was inhabited by the ancients celts or whatever whether they like it or not. I suppose the article should say how the people of Ireland are not 100 percent culturally or ethnically homogenous. It does seem to paint all Irish people with a broad brush when it ought not to. The article should reflect the cultural and ethnic diversity of Irish people.Chris hazzard1981 (talk) 19:16, 12 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Because someone lives in a town whose name may derive from Irish or live in an area that was inhabited by someone else previously does not equate to being brought up in that culture. Being brought up in a culture means being brought up with that language, traditions, art, beliefs, etc. Do people in Strangford grow up with a Scandinavian culture seeing as its name derives from Norse? No. Apart from that I agree with your last statement.

No nation or ethnic group in the world is 100% homogenous. The Irish people are very diverse and not all derived from the one select source. To state so is to ignore all the Mesolithic, Neolithic, Iron Age and Pictish pre-Celtic culture people in Ireland as well as the later Romanised Britons (most famous of them all being St. Patrick), Norse, Danes, Norman (Cambro, Anglo, and Scoto), Norse-Gaels, Scots, English, German Palatinate, Huguenot, Moravian, Jewish - to name the most prominent, and that doesn't even look at what constitutes those peoples.

As J.P.Mallory states in The Origins of the Irish, ISBN 978-0-500-29184-9:

Current archaeological evidence admits at most the entrance of small bands of elites and their craftsmen, but there is nothing to support a major settlement of a foreign population ('the Celts'). On the other hand, the evidence of tribal names would appear to suggest that broad areas - a third or more of the island - were occupied by tribes presumably speaking Celtic languages or dialects of Britain or the Continent.

More importantly they state the following which can be used as a response in regards to the edit you reverted (not made by me by the way):

Page 244: That the ancient authors never referred to the ancient British or Irish as 'Celts' has attracted an enormous amount of publicity and debate over whether we an legitimately apply the term 'Celtic' to the Irish (and ancient British) or whether the 'Celtic' name represents a recent myth constructed by modern nationalists in Ireland, Scotland, and Wales to put distance between them and the dominant English.
Page 245: In a nutshell not only was there no evidence that anyone on the Continent ever extended the name Celts to the people of Ireland but also until the time of George Buchanan (a 16th century Scottish poet), no one in Ireland ever imagined that they shared any particular kinship with their British neighbours, irrespective of what cover name might be applied.
Page 246: We are into sensitive political territory here, with 'Celticity' regarded by some as an inherent element in the national self-identification of the Irish. When a recent popular introduction to Irish history boasts that 'Ireland is now the only remaining Celtic nation in the world' you can understand why, in the eyes of some, dismissal of the Irish as a Celtic 'people' may be regarded as a form of intellectual genocide perpetrated largely by insensitive or even malicious English academics.

Are the Irish actually a Celtic nation? Not really. Like all nations it is a mongrel where certain aspects of its diverse strains shine greater than other aspects, such as its Q-Celtic language, which is the oldest surviving language in Ireland. Indeed most would assume that the bagpipe is a quintessential part of Scottish Celtism, but it originates from the ancient Near and Middle East. Mabuska (talk) 21:36, 12 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

You are strawmaning me. I mentioned "celtic backround" as opposed to "celtic culture". There is a difference.
I am not sure why you think ethnic and cultural diversity in Ireland does not make her a celtic nation. To say "x is a celtic nation" is not to say everybody is ethnically and culturally the same. If I were to say "czech republic is west slavic nation" I would not be wrong despite the fact that there are ethnic and cultural germans living in the sudetenland. I also think if a citation refers to Ireland as a celtic nation wikipedia should refer to it as such.
I am not sure how the idea of a celtic identity not existing until recent times is really an argument for anything. I can tell you consider yourself British despite the fact that the idea of the Britishness never existed until imperial invasions.
Strawmaning? I dont know what that means. I do call it unconfortable reading for those who believe in highly dubious myths. And in regards to a British identity, it was created by James I in the early 17th century to provide a common identity for the people of the kingdom's he ruled. Even it is older than the idea that Ireland and Scotland are Celtic nations.
A look at my user page tells you straight away I am a British citizen but that doesn't mean I'm not an Irish person. I am as I from the island of Ireland. However Irish people also means people from the Republic of to which I am not. Two different definitions on Irish people ignored by this articles introduction and general scope. And anyways what I am or consider myself to be has absoltuely no bearing on this issue and implies a crass attempt at ad hominem to denigrate my highly valid points.
If Ireland was not considered a Celtic nation until the last few centuries due to nationalist antiquarians and the such, claims now ever more widely disputed then how can they be reliably called such in this article with such certainty? I have provided a source that is widely acclaimed even by Irish nationalist press such as the Irish News. A very specfic expert source that shows that calling Ireland a Celtic nation is fraught with problems and why so. At best all we can do is state that it is regarded as such by some but disputed by others and why so. The first couple of sentences of the intro is not the place for this. Indeed it is suited for the article on the so called Celtic nations.
Indeed this article is about Irish people not what kind of nation they are alleged to be which is silly considering as even you admitted, the Irish aren't homogenous as are no people on the planet. The eulogies of both James Craig and Edward Carson both call them proud Irishmen, did they consider themselves part of a Celtic nation? Celtic is a part of Irishness but only a part. You can't be a Celtic nation if your only part Celtic. Ireland is as much an English nation if you consider the language that dominates the island and many other close cultural traits but no-one is calling for that absurdity to be added in the article. Mabuska (talk) 01:59, 15 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
By "strawmaning" I meant that your argument was a strawman. No it was not an ad hominem attack. You were making the argument or at least seemed to be that because the idea of a celtic identity for Ireland was only created recently by nationalists it did not exist. I was merely pointing out your doublethink.
Ok I think you are right there, I will revert my edit now.Chris hazzard1981 (talk) 08:45, 15 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
I hadn't looked at this before, but yes I think it is better without Celtic in the lead. + Being pure Fir Bolg myself I protest at the way these Milesian immigrants have taken over the place and called it their own ;-) Dmcq (talk) 10:38, 10 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]

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