Wikipedia:Reference desk/Humanities

Welcome to the humanities section
of the Wikipedia reference desk.

skip to bottom

Select a section:

• Computing
• Entertainment
• Humanities
• Language
• Mathematics
• Science
• Miscellaneous
• Archives

Want a faster answer?

Main page: Help searching Wikipedia

   

How can I get my question answered?

• Select the section of the desk that best fits the general topic of your question (see the navigation column to the right).
• Post your question to only one section, providing a short header that gives the topic of your question.
• Type '~~~~' (that is, four tilde characters) at the end – this signs and dates your contribution so we know who wrote what and when.
• Don't post personal contact information – it will be removed. Any answers will be provided here.
• Please be as specific as possible, and include all relevant context – the usefulness of answers may depend on the context.
• Note:
  • We don't answer (and may remove) questions that require medical diagnosis or legal advice.
  • We don't answer requests for opinions, predictions or debate.
  • We don't do your homework for you, though we'll help you past the stuck point.
  • We don't conduct original research or provide a free source of ideas, but we'll help you find information you need.

Ready? Ask a new question!

How do I answer a question?

Main page: Wikipedia:Reference desk/Guidelines

• The best answers address the question directly, and back up facts with wikilinks and links to sources. Do not edit others' comments and do not give any medical or legal advice.

See also:

• Teahouse
• Help desk
• Village pump
• Help manual

March 4

National Flags with Writing

Aside from that of Brazil, do any other national flags have writing on them? —Nricardo (talk) 02:25, 4 March 2018 (UTC)

• I managed to find it List_of_national_flags_by_design#Text. I had been expecting a category, though. —Nricardo (talk) 02:38, 4 March 2018 (UTC)

The category you want is Text. Wymspen (talk) 13:36, 4 March 2018 (UTC)

Saudi Arabia. μηδείς (talk) 08:17, 4 March 2018 (UTC)

Lots - mostly either Muslim countries with a religious text in Arabic, or countries with their coat of arms included on the flag. Afghanistan, Andorra, Belize, Bolivia (one variant), Brazil, Brunei, Costa Rica, Dominican Republic, Egypt, El Salvador, Equatorial Guinea, Guatemala, Haiti, Iran, Iraq, Malta, Nicaragua, Paraguay, San Marino, Saudi Arabia, Spain (limiting it to sovereign states recognised as such by the United Nations - you could probably find others if you used a wider definition of a nation). Wymspen (talk) 13:32, 4 March 2018 (UTC)

The majority of them include into the flag design a separately-designed national emblem, seal, or coat of arms which has the writing. Exceptions to this include the flags of Malta (which includes something which is not a national emblem), Iraq, and Saudi Arabia... AnonMoos (talk) 18:00, 4 March 2018 (UTC)

I clicked through the images at this non-reliable source and confirmed Wymspen's list with the exception of Costa Rica. Although Wikipedia says it is the unofficial version, the flag variant I've always seen used for the country is the one without the coat of arms and therefore no text. Not that I've seen it that often.

Flag of Costa Rica shows both variants, with and without the coat of arms. The one with the coat of arms is called the state flag (apparently meaning it is the one used by the government) and the one without the arms is the national flag - though I find the distinction between the state and the nation rather confusing. It is obviously easier, and cheaper, to make the version without the arms for common use, though in most such cases the variant with the arms appears to be the original, and official, flag. Wymspen (talk) 13:10, 5 March 2018 (UTC)

Anyway, I just thought I'd note that the most common languages on flags are Spanish (7 Latin American countries, counting Costa Rica) and Arabic (6 Islamic countries, using a variety of script styles). Latin occurs on 4 flags (Andorra, Belize, San Marino, and Spain), Portuguese on one (Brazil), French on one (Haiti), and English on one (Malta). And while they have changed it since, I would like to give a shout-out to the old flag of Rwanda, with its single giant letter R. --69.159.62.113 (talk) 01:44, 5 March 2018 (UTC)

The text on the Flag of Saudi Arabia is the Shahada, an Islamic statement of faith. For that reason, Saudi flags are always made of two flags sewn together back-to-back, so that the text is never shown inside out, which would be disrespectful. Alansplodge (talk) 12:57, 5 March 2018 (UTC)

Also, according to Saudi wishes, the Flag of Saudi Arabia should not be lowered to half-mast when others are. Hayttom (talk) 19:57, 6 March 2018 (UTC)

Or hung sideways (special sideways flags are produced) or printed on footballs! [1]. Alansplodge (talk) 09:02, 8 March 2018 (UTC)

March 5

I come from X and want to know what Y is

Someone wrote a blog post "I come from Java and want to know what monads are in Haskell"[2] (about a computer topic, details don't matter) and I'm pretty sure the title is a reference to some well known phrase or movie quote or something. Not having luck with web search. Any memories? Thanks. 173.228.123.121 (talk) 05:11, 5 March 2018 (UTC)

The rosettacode.org website is very similar. The difference is you start with a solution to a problem, such as the ABC block problem. Then, you look at the solution in a bunch of different languages. It isn't a code translator because each example takes advantage of the code being used. For example, a solution using array iteration in Java could be translated directly to Matlab. The solution would work. But, a proper solution in Matlab would use vector operations instead of iterating. So, you don't want to show the improper solution based on Java. 209.149.113.5 (talk) 18:43, 5 March 2018 (UTC)

No no it wasn't a programming question. The question is who else said "I come from [somewhere] and I want [something]". I.e. it's about the origin of the quote, that the Java-to-Haskell article title riffed on. Thanks anyway though. 173.228.123.121 (talk) 20:42, 5 March 2018 (UTC)

There's "I'm from Missouri. Show me."--Wehwalt (talk) 21:05, 5 March 2018 (UTC)

So, of all the possible examples, you choose the names of two programming languages and a term that is rarely used for anything except a "single unit value" in programming? 209.149.113.5 (talk) 13:07, 6 March 2018 (UTC)

Maybe better to ask on Entertainment? —Tamfang (talk) 09:23, 6 March 2018 (UTC)

<wp:guessdesk>one of the meanings of "to come from" is 3. "to derive one's opinion or argument from; to take as a conceptual starting point." So it could be just ordinary usage and not a snowclone. Or maybe it's 1. "to have as one's birthplace or nationality" (and the implied metaphor programming language=country - which is doubly apropos, given that "Java" is also an island in Indonesia.) 78.50.125.245 (talk) 09:57, 6 March 2018 (UTC)

funny thing, but a search for java ecosystem(another such metaphor - an ecosystem being apparently the totality of tools, services, online communities etc associated with a programming language) finds mostly programming sites 78.50.125.245 (talk) 10:20, 6 March 2018 (UTC)

I tried Googling "I come from * and want". One result. Exact same result I get for "I come from * and I want", which shouldn't be technically possible (coming from an English background). InedibleHulk (talk) 11:54, March 6, 2018 (UTC)

Poland and the Holocaust

According to a recent amendment to the Act on the Institute of National Remembrance Polish law, it is now a crime to "ascribe Nazi crimes to the Polish Nation or to the Polish State". There is much controversy over it, as pointed in the article. Just a few hours after the law came into force, the Argentine newspaper Página 12 was sued by a Polish campaign group, because it used the term "Polish death camp" (well, the Spanish term for that) in an article of December 2017. See here for details.

Without going into the actual law or the controversy about it, there are a pair of things I did not understand. First, even if Página 12 was at fault, how can an Argentine newspaper be sued under a Polish law? Shouldn't it be subject just to the Argentine law, and the Polish law be in force just in Poland? And second, Página 12 wrote that article in December, before the amendment. Shouldn't this law apply for texts written after it came into force? Can a law be retroactive? Cambalachero (talk) 18:28, 5 March 2018 (UTC)

1) Ministry of Justice: "Art. 55b. Irrespective of the law applicable at the place of commission of the prohibited act, this Act shall be applicable to a Polish citizen as well as a foreigner in the event of commission of the offences set out in art. 55 and art. 55a." 2)"Retroactive application of law is prohibited by the Article 3 of the Polish civil code". If the newspaper article was made accessible after the law came in to effect one could possibly argue that this itself violates the law, but that is just my speculation. --GeCaHu (talk) 19:01, 5 March 2018 (UTC)

"Shouldn't this law apply for texts written after it came into force? Can a law be retroactive?"

Is this some attempt at humour or have you not encountered laws with retroactive effects in your personal life? We have a detailed article on ex post facto law: "An ex post facto law (corrupted from Latin: ex postfacto, lit. 'out of the aftermath') is a law that retroactively changes the legal consequences (or status) of actions that were committed, or relationships that existed, before the enactment of the law. In criminal law, it may criminalize actions that were legal when committed; it may aggravate a crime by bringing it into a more severe category than it was in when it was committed; it may change the punishment prescribed for a crime, as by adding new penalties or extending sentences; or it may alter the rules of evidence in order to make conviction for a crime likelier than it would have been when the deed was committed. Conversely, a form of ex post facto law commonly called an amnesty law may decriminalize certain acts. A pardon has a similar effect, in a specific case instead of a class of cases. Other legal changes may alleviate possible punishments (for example by replacing the death sentence with lifelong imprisonment) retroactively. Such legal changes are also known by the Latin term in mitius." Dimadick (talk) 19:10, 5 March 2018 (UTC)

• Welcome to the modern world of the Internet. Laws are largely written (even new laws, even today) for the world that existed before electronics and before the Internet, and laws like this run smack up into them. It used to be that publishing was a singular act with a distinct time and place. The printed word was an object that had a time when it was created. In the modern Internet world, publishing is a continuous act, which exists in every space on earth at all times from the moment it was created in perpetuity. As soon as someone in Poland accesses the article from the Argentine newspaper, it is being published in Poland at that moment and violating Polish law. The Argentine newspaper would have to prevent its servers from sending a copy of that article to clients in Poland; which is certainly technically possible, in order to be incompliance, else it is publishing an illegal text in Poland. At least, that's how I read the situation. You can see parallels of this sort in the Right to be forgotten laws in the European Union, which compel the entire world to prevent information from being published within its jurisdiction. If the EU can prevent some bit of information, written outside of Europe, from being accessed in Europe, Poland can do the same. --Jayron32 20:55, 5 March 2018 (UTC)

It's worth remembering that while the internet has complicated things a great deal, problems could exist before the internet. Consider libels laws for example. The Berezovsky v Michaels case for example didn't just deal with internet publication, but also circulation of the physical magazine in England & Wales. This appears to have been considered in Dow Jones & Co Inc v Gutnick but no copies were actually circulated there however it suggests it could have been an issue. The English case is controversial because at the time, as I understand it neither plantiff had England & Wales as their primary place of residence and a lot of their business interests were likewise not there and the content also related to stuff outside England & Wales. But in the Australian case, the plantiff did AFAIK primarily live in Australia, and a lot of the businesses were there, and the conduct alleged also AFAIK was primarily in Australia. None of this seems likely to apply to the Argentinian newspaper, but it does emphasise the point that just because the content was physically published somewhere else, doesn't mean it didn't make it to the country where it's seen as a problem. You may then get into issues like whether you ascribe responsibility to the publisher. While I'm not aware of any specific examples, similar issues could arise with temporal issues as well. If a law changes so something you've physically published is now illegal, perhaps you won't have problems due to the publication. But if you continue to sell the publication, you may find that this could be a problem. I don't think any of this really arises much in the Argentinian case, but the point is that while the internet may have greatly complicated things, it doesn't mean these issues couldn't arise outside the internet. Nil Einne (talk) 06:02, 6 March 2018 (UTC)

"Is this some attempt at humour" - why would you assume its an attempt at humour? As the article you linked states, retrospective laws are either prohibited or severely discouraged in many countries. Including Poland. Iapetus (talk) 09:55, 6 March 2018 (UTC)

Its a highly political dispute about Collaboration_with_the_Axis_Powers_during_World_War_II#Poland and it was highly political infused by recent similar established law by Poland's neighbor country Ukraine where alike collaboration with the Nazis happened (see Ukrainian collaborationism with the Axis powers for detail), including the Massacres of Poles in Volhynia and Eastern Galicia, that alike forbids to claim any guild or blame of historic ukrainian people like the "national hero" Stepan Bandera or parties or the nation itself. So its more a classic Tit for tat or political conflict between neighbor countries really and given its very, very serious (or in conflict furious) national sensitivity everyone is well advised not to comment or judge otherwise or face the fury of the new national law. Silently shaking ones head is still allowed i guess. --Kharon (talk) 14:04, 6 March 2018 (UTC)

I have an inquiry about the news in Indonesia

With the recent news about gay rights in Indonesia becoming difficult with the law lately, how are transgendered people still able to change gender? Because in wikiedpia's article LGBT rights in Indonesia says people can change gender with judicial approval. But has this changed since the news is happening? Should wikipedia update that section? 184.71.183.70 (talk) 22:13, 5 March 2018 (UTC)

It's worth noting that a lot of countries view the distinction between trans rights and gay rights differently to the west. Iran is notorious as one of the worst jurisdictions for gay people in the world, and it still regularly punishes homosexuality with torture or execution... yet transsexuality in Iran is legal and the country carries out more gender confirmation surgery than anywhere in the world except Thailand (many are gay men coerced into transitioning by the government). Anyway, I can't find any evidence for a change in the law on trans rights in Indonesia (although note that Indonesia has both a civil law derived from Dutch law, and sharia law in many regions. As our article LGBT rights in Indonesia notes, at least one Islamic law council in Indonesia has forbidden change of gender, even though the civil law provides for it) Smurrayinchester 09:06, 6 March 2018 (UTC)

March 6

German pastor arrested for anti-nazi activities and later released

A number of years ago while traveling I read a short autobiographical account by a German pastor of his arrest for anti-nazi activities and eventual release during the Second World War. I cannot remember the name of the author or the book and after considerable searching have not been able to find the book again. It was a relatively short book but described how he wrestled to avoid betraying his principles and his people, but not give the Nazis cause to hold him or punish him. The author was not Martin Niemöller nor Dietrich Bonhoeffer. He was held in a jail or prison and not in a concentration camp. He was regularly interrogated but not beaten or tortured. One of his fellow pastors was executed in the same prison. Can anyone help me? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 31devaux (talk • contribs) 01:26, 6 March 2018 (UTC)

Hans Asmussen? Clarityfiend (talk) 03:02, 6 March 2018 (UTC)

Heinrich Grüber was sent to Sachsenhausen and Dachau, but was released in 1943. Clarityfiend (talk) 03:19, 6 March 2018 (UTC)

Is lying considered wrong in Russian culture?

It’s probably very hard to generalize, but I’m wondering if In Russian culture, lying is considered as wrong as it is other western countries where Judeo-Christian ethical systems are popular.

It seems like president Putin and his government lie about everything and Putin has that sort of smirk that seems to say he doesn’t care if you believe him or not. I’m referring to lies about whether he interfered in the USA’s election, whether he has opponents and critics murdered, whether his country systematically dopes its athletes, whether or not his military shot down a passenger plane or committed atrocities in Syria. The list of demonstrable lies goes on and on.

Do the Russian people mind this? Is lying considered a relatively small sin, compared to the sin of being weak or powerless?

I’m an American and I’m extremely aware that our President too is a colossal liar. Trump lies as much or even more than Putin. And other recent presidents have lied too, some more than others. But I think the difference is that in most American people HATE it when their leaders lie, and they criticize them for it (I wish they wouldn’t elect liars in the first place, but that’s another issue).

Trump’s approval rating is in the 30s (in part due to his dishonesty) and Putin’s is sky high—I think that even if you allowed for the fact that polls in Russian might be less rigorous than approval polls here , I think no one would dispute that Putin is more widely admired among people than Trump is among his.

So what gives? Do Russian people care that Putin lies all the time? Is it considered bad or wrong? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Captain Breakfast (talk • contribs) 16:42, 6 March 2018 (UTC)

See Vranyo. In short, there's two kinds of words for lies, one of which is a lie that everyone knows is a lie but plays along with anyway. This was the article that introduced the concept to me, and discusses it in relation to Putin (though it is several years old).

The Moscow Times has an article on the subject as well. It's origins aren't ignoble. The original idea is that someone who would look bad from admitting the truth can say something that probably gives the other person the truth without being shamefully open about it. An equivalent you might see in the west: someone asks their friend how their new shirt looks. Friend says "It's... fine?" with a concerned look that's quickly replaced by every attempt to avoid eye contact. The person probably figures out that the shirt looks horrible but is reassured that at least their friend cares how they feel.

However, when it's applied to policy (especially for a national gov't), things can get royally fucked up. Ian.thomson (talk) 17:04, 6 March 2018 (UTC)

"vranyo" is an everyday, ordinary word, not the name of some quintessentially Russian social phenomenon "Moscow" Times (more like Langley Times) would like it to be (any more than "bull***" is the name of some quintessentially American social phenomemon.) Russians hate lying as much as everyone else. It's not "most Americans" who hate Trump for "lying," only roughly a half. The idea Orthodoxy is somehow soft on morals or "not really" Christianity is a literally 300 years old religious propaganda trope. As to those things - taking down civilian planes, killing opponents, systematically doping athletes - Russians (well, those with a favorable view of Vladimir Putin) don't think he, or Russia, did, so don't consider it lying when he denies them or chooses not to comment on them.

Know that anytime you're offered anthropological explanations, you're BEING HAD. Russians don't have a higher tolerance for lying, any more than Arabs' reasons to resist Anglo imperialism is the fear YT is gonna emancipate their wimmin (not kidding, that's a real trope.) The sooner you realize people are roughly the same everywhere the sooner you become a rightful citizen of the world and not some apologist for US imperialism. Good luck. (It's sad what's becoming of the RefDesks, but "he started it") 78.50.151.26 (talk) 17:57, 6 March 2018 (UTC)

Most of the cases you cite as proof for lying are objectively disputable or, stronger even, without any clear evidence no matter excessive investigations. Even the President of the United States keeps calling some of these cases a "Witch hunt". It does not suffice anymore today to judge just from alleged motives and clues, which is exactly how the witches where prosecuted obviously wrong in the medieval, basically because everyone believed in "evil magic" and the church/pope was always right. --Kharon (talk) 18:20, 6 March 2018 (UTC)

(edit conflict) Notice I pointed out a western equivalent and didn't actually specify which nations' politics are messed up by it (because it's bad for any nation). Notice I said there's two kinds of words for lying. The other kind does describe what we'd just call "lying" (or even "bullshit") with no qualifiers. Vranyo is an everyday word, but it is one that carries contexts that "lying" does not. Notice I said nothing about Orthodoxy. Try actually reading posts before responding to them, instead of just making assumptions based on nationality. Ian.thomson (talk) 18:25, 6 March 2018 (UTC)

¡Hola. The OP talked about Orthodoxy. I was replying to everyone. Sorry if I was nasty (I got carried away a bit in my 2nd paragraph.) I don't hate the West or anything. The MT just wants project to a bad image of Russians and they're not even being original. Solzhenitsyn already said, "Let's not live by lies." Russians are their own worst (=best) critics, and always have been, they (I'm saying they, as I'm not ethnically Russian, just russophone) don't need the airplane nonsense. Speaking of journos, just like Americans know where they were on 9/11, some of my earliest childhood memories is when I learned about Dmitry Kholodov and Listyev. 78.50.151.112 (talk) 14:02, 11 March 2018 (UTC)

If it helps, on the RuNet, I always defend the West against unfair attacks by Russian patriotards and obscurantists, too. 78.50.151.112 (talk) 14:15, 11 March 2018 (UTC)

I know almost nothing about Russian culture, but "vranyo" sounds more benign than the Arab phenomenon of lies to protect an important person's sense of dignity -- the classic example of which is Nasser and King Hussein of Jordan discussing how they'll fabricate a hoax that U.S. and British planes (not Israeli) destroyed the Egyptian and Jordanian air forces in 1967.[3] These dignity-protecting lies can lack basic plausibility, but they aren't offered with a wink or a smirk, and any attempts to dispute them can trigger an enraged and furious response. The final breakdown between W. Bush and Arafat in 2002 happened when Bush felt personally betrayed and offended by Arafat's dignity-protecting lies that he knew nothing about the Karine A ("Arafat had lied to me. I never trusted him again. In fact, I never spoke to him again." -- Decision Points by George W. Bush)... AnonMoos (talk)`

We do not answer requests for opinion or debate.--WaltCip (talk) 12:16, 8 March 2018 (UTC)

Imprisonment for public protection...

... was abolished in 2012, but what is England's and Wales' today's treatment with dangerous convicts then? Has there been established any corresponding, appropriate substitute to protect the public from such criminals constituting a menace to it?--Converto (talk) 16:48, 6 March 2018 (UTC)

As is mentioned in the article, there is already the option for life imprisonment, including the contentious whole life order. Part of what made the IPP law so dangerous was that it acted as a kind of backdoor way of giving someone what amounted to a life sentence despite them not being found guilty of a commensurate crime (if they had, they'd have been give life imprisonment instead). The quote from Juliet Lyons at the bottom of this sums up the problems nicely. Matt Deres (talk) 20:25, 6 March 2018 (UTC)

March 7

Modern/correct name of a 15th century Dutch town

So, in researching some of my Dutch ancestors, I've come accross a place named 'Hemegsels', 'Hemegsele', or 'Hemegseet' where Swaene van Indijck was supposed to have been born ca. 1470. I've looked everywhere and tried finding similarly-named places, but I've had no luck. As I don't know how the Dutch languages as place names changed, and given that this was long before Dutch Indepdence, I assume it's not going to be an easy find. Could someone help, please? Sir William Matthew Flinders Petrie | ^{Say Shalom!} 20 Adar 5778 15:51, 7 March 2018 (UTC)

Interesting. There are several different early settlers of New York (New Netherlands) which were listed here as being from Hemegseet, Holland. But outside of genealogies, I can also find no record of such a place. I'm unsure if they mean Holland as in "Holland proper" or Holland as in "The Netherlands" in general. --Jayron32 16:20, 7 March 2018 (UTC)

• Looking at List of populated places in the Netherlands, the ending -sel and -selt and similar are common, but -seet is not; it makes me think that might be a typo or misspelling --Jayron32 18:08, 7 March 2018 (UTC)

Looking at the spelling -gseet, I wonder if this could have been -geest. There are quite a few Dutch places with that ending. Wymspen (talk) 22:44, 7 March 2018 (UTC)

I wonder if it's a misreading of a handwritten document that has propagated throughout genealogy websites (since those seem to be the only places that these spellings occur). I've seen that happen before so it wouldn't surprise me. But unless we can trace the original post (and ultimately the original document) I'm not sure what we could do about it here. Adam Bishop (talk) 18:24, 7 March 2018 (UTC)

There is an archaeological site and lieu-dit in or near Baelen (in modern-day French-speaking Belgium) called "Hemesels". See for example Baelen's own website (quoting two publications by Heike Fock with Hemesels in their title). ---Sluzzelin talk 19:08, 7 March 2018 (UTC)

Hi, I'm from NL and have good knowledge of place names. This is not an obvious typo, it looks like the first part of the name is garbled, which makes it kind of difficult. But we he no places starting with Hemeg- or Hemegs-. So I tried to focus on the last part of the name.

My best guess is Nunspeet (one old spelling is Nuwenspete). It's in the Harderwijk area where Swaene married a guy called van Rensselaer. Googling his name also leads to this area. Elspeet is also close. Can't think of other places on -eet in the country (but I didn't check that).

Note that I'm not sure, but this may help you in finding further clues (like Swaene's parents?)

Note that the Dutch language is much older than the independence, so don't focus too much on that. Jahoe (talk) 13:09, 8 March 2018 (UTC)

At the times being described, the lands would have been part of the Burgundian Netherlands, which while not a sovereign state in the modern sense of the word, would have still be recognized as having some cultural and social continuity akin to what we might call a "stateless nation" in the modern sense, united by their common language and culture. Terminology also creates an issue for us here. When the text says "Holland", we don't know when and what is meant by Holland. In 1470, Holland would have meant only the County of Holland, and not the greater Netherlands, but from the time of the late 1700s/early 1800s, "Holland" was a widely used synecdoche for the entire Dutch Republic; so it depends on when the text was written. --Jayron32 13:22, 8 March 2018 (UTC)

I have some doubts about that. The Dutch republic started in the late 1500s and Hollands domination over the "other Netherlands" is even older than that. Jahoe (talk) 13:54, 8 March 2018 (UTC)

It's arguable that Holland was the most important of the low-country polities in the 15th century. Brussels was the most important low-country city until well into the 1500s, Charles V & I used Brussels based his court there and used it as the capital of his large empire, economically Flanders was probably more powerful as a polity given the importance of the Flemmish wool industry to the region. The economic and political power in the Low Countries was decidedly more to the south than the north during the 15th century; the rise of Holland and its cities (esp. Amsterdam) didn't overtake the southern part until at least a century later. And it is even more doubtful that the terminology "Holland" would have been applied to the entire region in the 1470s. --Jayron32 15:26, 8 March 2018 (UTC)

You're right there, Brussels and Flanders weren't dominated by Holland. But that's the Southern Netherlands, they didn't become part of the republic and were never accidentally described as Holland.

But we're talking about Harderwijk here. That's in the north, the county of Gelders, which was surely under Hollands influence. This Hollandic domination may well have started as early as the 1200s.

To me it's quite plausible that our "early New Yorkers" misnomer-ed the Harderwijk area as Holland, albeit strictly incorrect. Jahoe (talk) 16:51, 8 March 2018 (UTC)

(AN IP-editor removed his/her response here, so my following two responses lost their context.) Jahoe (talk) 19:24, 8 March 2018 (UTC)

Is that the same person? Born in Harderwijk contradicts the OPs question. Also i found van Rensselaer as name of the husband. Hm, strange. Jahoe (talk) 16:56, 8 March 2018 (UTC)

Ah, the husband is Henrick Woltersz van Rensselaer. So probable the same Swaene after all. Jahoe (talk) 17:12, 8 March 2018 (UTC)

Some responses from a banned IP-editor were removed from the discussion, leaving it a bit awkward. Summarizing: Swaene van Indijck married Henrick Woltersz van Rensselaer in 1485 in the Dutch town of Harderwijk. Our "mystery village" might be in this area. Jahoe (talk) 19:37, 8 March 2018 (UTC)

In the mean time I found that, especially in this part of the country, it wasn't unusual to use names of farms in the records, in stead of names of towns and villages. Perhaps because there were few villages in this area, it was desolate. So we might well be searching for the name of a (long disappeared) Geldrian farm of around 1470... The van Rensselaers were (rich) farmers, so it would have made sense that Swaene was a (rich) farmers daughter...

One thing I may not have mentioned clearly is that "Hemegseet" or whatever doesn't sound like a proper name in Dutch ears; it must have been garbled in some way. Also note that Swaene van Indijck may also have been known as Swaene ten Indijck or even Zwaene in den Dyck, etc. The name obviously meaning something as "on the inner (safe) side of the dike".

Spent some time on researching this today and it was fun, perhaps because I myself descend from (poor) Geldrian farmers. But I've ran out of options and I'm giving up, Nunspeet is still my best guess. Please can I have a full sized needle in a haystack now? ;)

Tonight I will say a little prayer for Swaene from Hemegseet, born about 650 years ago. Jahoe (talk) 22:04, 8 March 2018 (UTC)

Howdy all, thank you so much for the responses. Unfortunately, it’s quite late here, but just wanted to make sure it was known that I’ve seen there’s activity, and I’ll be able to give it a read later today (Friday). Sir William Matthew Flinders Petrie | ^{Say Shalom!} 22 Adar 5778 00:52, 9 March 2018 (UTC)

Research paper about the history of the Chinese heritage language schools in the United States

Just yesterday, I read a research paper in the EbscoHost database. I didn’t finish reading it, because it was insanely long. But as far as I got, it detailed the history of the Chinese heritage schools in the United States. It began as a way to educate the young offspring of Chinese immigrants in the US during the 19th century, so that they could always have the opportunity to return to China and find work, and also as a way to cope with the racial segregation in schools. Then, something happened in the 20th century, which shifted the language curriculum from Cantonese and Taishanese to Mandarin. (In modern times, “Mandarin” may mean Taiwan Mandarin, which teaches largely Traditional characters, or PRC Mandarin, which teaches Simplified characters.) Also discussed, Chinese weekend heritage schools (in earlier times, children would go to afternoon Chinese school and weekend Chinese school, probably gaining more exposure in the language) weren’t really effective at promoting literacy. Most children grew up with just a connection to Chinese culture and identity, returning all their knowledge of the language to the teacher. Anybody can find such a research paper? 140.254.70.33 (talk) 17:54, 7 March 2018 (UTC)

I remember I typed “heritage language” into the keyword box, but now I can’t find it using this keyword. 140.254.70.33 (talk) 17:57, 7 March 2018 (UTC)

FWIW: There is a history (or whatever Windows calls it) which allows checking previous activities in research. Unless deleted, you should find websites you have contacted recently. --Cookatoo.ergo.ZooM (talk) 17:00, 8 March 2018 (UTC)

I’ll try. But I think it’s important to know that the user enters EbscoHost through the library. I think it’s a library subscription. Sometimes, the history only tracks the general website, not the specific page on a website. 140.254.70.33 (talk) 17:28, 8 March 2018 (UTC)

March 8

Western Orthodox University

Any reliable sources on the staus and validity of Western Orthodox University please? It looks like a diploma mill to me. Asking because I have just been clearing up some spam promoting a person whose Wikipedia biography says he's a tutor for it. DuncanHill (talk) 10:59, 8 March 2018 (UTC)

"The University is not accredited by any government or para-statal authority and does not award state degrees." That's from their own website. --Jayron32 12:36, 8 March 2018 (UTC)

March 9

Modern numeral systems

The western Arabic numerals, 0123456789, are obviously widely used. In Iran, the national standard is the eastern Arabic numerals, ٠١٢٣٤٥٦٧٨٩, which are also in wide use in a few other countries. Other than these two numeral systems are there any others that still enjoy widespread use as the primary numeral system within some population? I don't mean cases like Roman numerals or Chinese numerals, which are still familiar and understood but rarely used in day-to-day affairs. Rather, I am interested if there are countries or populations where the predominant writing standard for numbers is still something other than Arabic numerals. I think the Burmese numerals or the Indian numerals might qualify, but I'm not really sure how widely used these are today. Dragons flight (talk) 14:40, 9 March 2018 (UTC)

When I was in China, the predominant way to represent numbers was with Chinese characters with the exception of 0, which used the Arabic/Latin 0. It wasn't just "familiar". It was the norm. 209.149.113.5 (talk) 15:50, 9 March 2018 (UTC)

There are many systems. See Template:Numeral systems for a comprehensive overview. 86.155.145.152 (talk) 16:34, 9 March 2018 (UTC)

But the question asked about systems "that still enjoy widespread use as the primary numeral system within some population", not for just a list of systems. --69.159.62.113 (talk) 17:38, 9 March 2018 (UTC)

I suppose you could be right about China. I've never been there myself, so I don't have any local knowledge. However, from the internet I am familiar with many documents like this [4] and portals like this [5] (both from the Ministry of the Environment) or news releases like [6] that consistently mix Chinese text with Arabic numerals. That's where my impression has come from that Arabic numerals have become the dominant numeral system in China. Dragons flight (talk) 18:09, 9 March 2018 (UTC)

I have two leaves from a calendar, for respectively Monday 19 February and Tuesday 20 February. It is Gujarati on the left and English on the right. The English side uses western numerals and the Gujarati side uses Gujarati numerals. On the left the dates are the 4th and 5th of the month in either the lunar or the sidereal calendar (I don't know enough to distinguish) and the year is Vikrama Samvat 2074. So in that part of the world Hindi numerals seem to be well established. 86.155.145.163 (talk) 15:31, 10 March 2018 (UTC)

I also have a book printed entirely in Gujarati (including the numerals), except for the word INDIA on the title page and some Arabic accompanying the picture of a mosque at the beginning of the first chapter. From my new-found knowledge of this language (which I didn't know existed till yesterday) I can see three dates on the title page - 2001, 1393 and 1973. 1393 is the Islamic year which began in 1973. The book is evidently recently printed, and demonstrates that the Gujarati numerals are embedded in the culture. 86.155.146.232 (talk) 12:52, 11 March 2018 (UTC)

Syria's conflict

I just checked this website [7]. I am not sure if it will work for everyone so the essence there is that a fighting goes on in residential areas, some paramilitaries run around loading shells in mobile assault cannons, women actually, everyone is excited. My question is: what do they eat? I mean, who supplies them bare necessities? Who finances this war? Where do they get all those shells? There should be trucks full of food and ammunition running there constantly to supply them. It is not a video game by any means. What is the logistics of all this? AboutFace 22 (talk) 14:42, 9 March 2018 (UTC)

There's several sources here, of varying relyability, that go into the topic. --Jayron32 14:55, 9 March 2018 (UTC)

In city areas there are often extended existing tunnel systems. Additionally such tunnels have been part of the history of Trench warfare. The Tunnel systems in the Vietnam War for example in cases like the Củ Chi tunnels extended to a 75-mile (121 km)-long complex. Besides their strategic use in warfare such tunnels are of course also used as shelter and to establish supply lines (read our article Gaza Strip smuggling tunnels) but they also have to be kept secret for obvious reasons and thus can not be used by aid convoys. --Kharon (talk) 16:55, 9 March 2018 (UTC)

Which is regarded as a prestige language in Hong Kong - Standard Mandarin, Standard Cantonese, or English?

I just read this source (http://www.nytimes.com/2010/07/23/opinion/23iht-edyu.html), and it seems that “Cantonese” is lowest rung. English is the language of prestige, so the little kid learns English from non-native English speakers so that he can enroll in the prestigious international school. Meanwhile, I’ve read elsewhere that Standard Cantonese is the prestige dialect of the Guangdong area. But as PRC China is rising, wouldn’t Hong Kong people value Mandarin more and more? Okay, which language is actually prestigious in Hong Kong? Or do the parents just want to send the boy to a prestigious international school and satisfy the English requirement? 140.254.70.33 (talk) 17:17, 9 March 2018 (UTC)

It may depend on who you're talking with and the context of the conversation. Trying to deal with a gov't bureaucrat from Beijing? Mandarin. Talking to a member of the upper-middle class, to see who can brag about their kid more? English, depending on their context. Talking with someone who moved from Guangdong to Hong Kong a long time ago to reduce the PRC's presence in their life, about said move? Cantonese. Ian.thomson (talk) 17:23, 9 March 2018 (UTC)

See also Cantonese v Mandarin: When Hong Kong languages get political from the BBC. "The social rejection of Putonghua (i.e. Mandarin) has come as people question their Chinese identity, which has alarmed both the Hong Kong and mainland Chinese governments". Alansplodge (talk) 13:53, 10 March 2018 (UTC)

March 10

Do French families bear collective responsibility for income tax?

Hello. Sorry if my question sounds stupid, but I've not been successful in finding the answer. In France personal income tax is imposed on families rather than individuals. So, if a French citizen living an extravagant lifestyle and/or abusing alcohol refuses to pay his income tax share, do his family members have to pay it in his stead on pain of legal consequences? --Синкретик (talk) 14:51, 10 March 2018 (UTC)

Hello, don't have the answer but am posting a basic reference: the French wikipedia article on the personal income tax Impôt sur le revenu (France) FYI, the French wiki also has a reference desk: l'Oracle.70.67.222.124 (talk) 17:09, 10 March 2018 (UTC)

By family, what is included is a spouse and any dependents living together. It does not include grown-up children living on their own, siblings, cousins, etc. It doesn't matter how much you spend: you are liable for inclome tax on your revenues. Under French law, one spouse is liable for the unpaid income tax of the other. This ends when there is a divorce or legal separation. See here (in French) [8]. But I am not a lawyer (and not even French) so if the OP's interest in this is anything more than simple curiosity, he should consult a professional. --Xuxl (talk) 19:50, 10 March 2018 (UTC)

There is also an article here on the English wikipedia although it doesn't really answer the question of what happens when one member refuses to pay Taxation in France#Income taxes. This from KMPG [9] says "Married couples are required to file jointly - exceptions are allowed only under very limited circumstances.". It also has some details on ages for children to be included as dependents. Complete OR, but I would imagine the most common way to handle a situation like the OP outlines would be a civil case and divorce. As for any dependent children, such issues would likely be handled via child support. (But in any case, it's fairly unlikely the children are going to be a reason to have to pay more tax.) Nil Einne (talk) 03:45, 11 March 2018 (UTC)

Looking at it from that angle, it seems that it's simply the case that "Married filing separately" is not normally allowed as it is in the US. So it doesn't sound like something extraordinary compared with the US, where you report all income and pay the tax accordingly (or get a refund, as the case may be). ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 17:19, 11 March 2018 (UTC)

While we have specific rules about offering medical or legal advice, financial and tax advice don’t get the same respect. Contact a tax professional, if you want specific tax advice. Don’t ask Wikipedians! DOR (HK) (talk) 09:07, 11 March 2018 (UTC)

Tax advice is a type of legal advice. --69.159.62.113 (talk) 11:00, 11 March 2018 (UTC)

Wouldn't filing for divorce be a disproportionate way of handling this situation, especially if young children are involved? Anyway, the cost of the divorce might be greater than the outstanding tax. 86.155.146.232 (talk) 12:25, 11 March 2018 (UTC)

Well no one said it's all about the tax. For many people, when their spouse is refusing to contribute to their partnership, it's a serious matter. This may or may not be financially depending on the specifics of the relationship, and may includes things like a joint account for at least part of any earnings, but if both people are happy with whatever arrangement they have, the OP's question simply does not arise. It only arises if one of the spouses isn't satisfied with whatever the other spouse is contributing and doing as part of the relationship. There are various means to try and resolve this e.g. couples counselling. But ultimately if the spouse won't change and the other spouse is unable to accept the nature of their relationship, divorce is hardly an uncommon outcome. Some things common among the French people may be a bit weird to anglophones, but I think you'll find expecting their spouse to actually be part of the partnership rather than just fooling around on their own is one thing they both have in common, as with most of the world. It's frequently regarded as important for the children too, hence why there often are laws which allow a parent to be forced to contribute financially if they are able to and if they don't do so willing. In the past, divorce was taboo enough that even if one partner was hardly contributing, the couple may 'stay together for the kids' but this is a lot less common now for many reasons in a lot of the world. (This doesn't mean all couples especially with children separate willy nilly, but the scenario the OP outlines doesn't sound like a minor thing.) Nil Einne (talk) 13:01, 11 March 2018 (UTC)

Naming system for variations of musical modes

I'm attempting to understand the naming system used for variations of musical modes, in particular some of the names listed in the tables at Mode (music)#Other types.

There's a good chance I am misunderstanding something, but to me it seems there is an inconsistency between the system used in the first and second tables in that section, and the system used in the third table.

For example, consider the variations of the Locrian mode listed in that section. The Locrian mode itself looks like this:

1 ♭2 ♭3 4 ♭5 ♭6 ♭7

One of the modes listed in the second table is "Locrian ♯6":

1 ♭2 ♭3 4 ♭5 6 ♭7

This is the same as the Locrian mode except that the sixth scale degree is raised a half step, hence the "♯6" in the name. Similarly, in the first table, "Phrygian ♯6" (1 ♭2 ♭3 4 5 6 ♭7) is the same as the Phrygian mode (1 ♭2 ♭3 4 5 ♭6 ♭7) except that the sixth degree is raised a half-step. So the "♯6" is describing the adjustment to the sixth degree with respect to the normal Locrian or Phrygian mode.

But in the third table we have "Locrian ♮6 ♮3":

1 ♭2 3 4 ♭5 6 ♭7

Here the same modification to the sixth degree is described as "♮6" instead of "♯6". In other words, it appears to be describing the adjustment to the sixth degree with respect to the major scale, not the Locrian mode.

The third table also contains "Locrian 3 7":

1 ♭2 3 4 ♭5 ♭6 7

Here the third and seventh degrees are lowered a half step from the normal Locrian mode. If the variations were described with respect to the Locrian mode, as in the first two tables, I would expect this to be called "Locrian ♭3 ♭7", not "Locrian 3 7". The "3 7" seems to imply that the third and seventh degrees are lowered a whole step from the normal Locrian mode, which would result in 1 ♭2 3 4 ♭5 ♭6 7.

Am I correct that there is an inconsistency in notation here? If so, is one or the other of these naming systems considered more "standard" than the other? —Bkell (talk) 17:27, 10 March 2018 (UTC)

Finding K-12 student work about the US-Mexico border from students in US and Mexico

I am interested in finding already published student work produced by K-12 students in both the US and Mexico about life near the border - to include art work, prose, poetry, video. Any ideas on good sources to go about for this search? I've attempted Google Scholar, but I'm not sure I have been using the right terms or if there is a better place to look.--73.93.154.182 (talk) 20:16, 10 March 2018 (UTC)

How about using "contest" as a key word? For example, googling student poetry contest winners arizona brings up these poems about life in the Sonoran desert. You could sub in art or writing for poetry and the names of different American and Mexican states.70.67.222.124 (talk) 23:02, 10 March 2018 (UTC)

March 11

Has anyone evaluated whether the Black Stone at Mecca could be a piece of the Elagabalus stone?

Superficially, the Black stone and the stone of Elagabalus (deity) are both baetylus objects. The stone of Elagabalus was brought to the Elagabalium in Rome, but then returned to Emesa, i.e. Homs in Syria, after Elagabalus the emperor was deposed. There it was "probably smashed to pieces when the temple was converted into a Christian church, some time in the 4th century." [10] That church was later (half) converted to the Great Mosque of al-Nuri, where the Caliphate was announced by ISIS leader al-Baghdadi, and which was subsequently destroyed; the site above notes the mosque (then extant) was "never excavated" but theoretically it might be excavatable now. Our article says there was a raised spot in the courtyard thought to have been the original pagan shrine.

Anyway, the Black Stone was brought to Mecca by pagan Nabataeans, who according to the latter article had a strong network of trading routes all up through Syria. So I'm thinking it's entirely plausible that the Black Stone the hajj celebrants kiss might be a piece of the much larger stone, somehow spirited away by pious or rapacious traders for shipment to pagan points south, that the Roman Empress Elagabalus (really, she was a transsexual, so let's not be offensive by using male pronouns...) would walk backward in front of leading a team of horses.

Question is, has any reliable source (i.e. that could be cited in our article) ever explored this modestly amusing line of inquiry and come to a positive or negative conclusion? Wnt (talk) 03:19, 11 March 2018 (UTC)

Simply searching for both sets of terms shows you aren't the first person to suggest that the two objects might be connected. However, all I can see are various speculations on message boards and the like, and nothing that looks like legitimate scholarship on the topic. Maybe someone else can find something. Dragons flight (talk) 07:52, 11 March 2018 (UTC)

closest lighthouses

Which lighthouse is the closest to where the RMS Titanic sank? Which lighthouse is the closest to where the LZ 129 Hindenburg burst into flames? Which lighthouse is the closest to where the SS Andrea Doria sank? Anyone know?2604:2000:7113:9D00:E8C6:B8A:1BBA:ACA3 (talk) 06:37, 11 March 2018 (UTC)

Not offhand, but I looked and it seems the nearest to the Titanic would be the Cape Race Lighthouse in SE Newfoundland. The one for the Hindenberg will be one of the ones on the Jersey Shore but I can't be bothered to figure it out when you can quite easily.--Wehwalt (talk) 07:18, 11 March 2018 (UTC)

Note that "The Titanic sank 400 miles (640 kilometres) off the coast of Newfoundland", [11] so well out of sight - you can see a lighthouse 10 to 20 miles away depending on how high up the light and the viewer are. [12] Apologies if that wasn't the purpose of your question. Alansplodge (talk) 21:47, 11 March 2018 (UTC)

Assuming the OP is aware the Hindenburg caught fire over land, that doesn't seem to be the purpose of the question.--Wehwalt (talk) 22:06, 11 March 2018 (UTC)

Sea Girt Light seems to be the closest at roughly 17 miles, on the Hindenburg.--Wehwalt (talk) 22:11, 11 March 2018 (UTC)

As to the Andrea Doria, Wikipedia shows the distress message with the coordinates "LAT. 40.30 N 69.53 W". I don't know if those numbers are in decimal degrees (40.30°N) or in degrees and minutes (40°30'N, but sometime written 40.30), but it doesn't matter; either way the position is south and somewhat east of Nantucket. Several sites such as this one say that Nantucket has three lighthouses, and Wikipedia's list of National Register of Historic Places listings in Nantucket County, Massachusetts, lists the same three, so I think those are all the ones we need to consider and clearly Sankaty Head Light is closest to the position. --69.159.62.113 (talk) 11:17, 11 March 2018 (UTC)

Charley Farley

Was there a real Charley Farley after whom other Charley's are nicknamed? DuncanHill (talk) 20:46, 11 March 2018 (UTC)

March 12

What is the highest sex on earth?

I am not talking about sex in a plane or sex in the ISS. I am talking about sex on the physical earth. What is the highest altitude where documented sex has taken place by humans? 110.22.20.252 (talk) 02:00, 12 March 2018 (UTC)