Talk:Sally Hemings

Forced?

The first paragraph of the "Jefferson-Hemings controversy" section says, "Jefferson forcing a nonconsensual sexual relationship on Hemings was first reported in 1802 by one of Jefferson’s enemies, a political journalist named James T. Callender, after he noticed several light skinned slaves at Monticello.[42]"

The second paragraph of that section says, "Since 1998 and the DNA study,[45] many historians have concluded that the widower Jefferson had forced a long nonconsensual sexual relationship onto Hemings, and fathered six children with her, four of whom survived to adulthood."

I can't see all of the references since not all are online. Do some of them specify "nonconsensual"? Or is that an addition by us, a kind of Original Research based on the fact that as a slave she had no choice whether to consent or not, and therefore people feel justified pointing out in Wikipedia's voice that it was nonconsensual kind of by definition? As for "forced" - isn't that a bit much? Do "many historians" actually say that? I see there was discussion above about whether to say "rape", which the article does not say - but isn't "forced" just as bad, implying physical force on his part and resistance on hers? I would really like to know what references or sources justify the use (twice) of the word "forced". --MelanieN (talk) 21:16, 3 August 2017 (UTC)

-- No, in fact most historians say the opposite, that the relationship should not be described as "rape" or "nonconsensual". Our sources, like Annette Gordon-Reed, are very clear on these points. This is vandalism, and it should be removed. 47.35.119.183 (talk) 03:10, 4 August 2017 (UTC)

I'll removed "forced". I'd like to hear more discussion about "nonconsensual." --MelanieN (talk) 21:56, 6 August 2017 (UTC)

While I was at it I also removed "nonconsensual" from those two sentences. I think it may still be in the article in a few places and would like discussion about whether it belongs here. --MelanieN (talk) 22:00, 6 August 2017 (UTC)

Gordon-Reed makes her perspective that slaves could consent fairly clear in Ch. 5:

″It makes perfect sense when faced with the devastating effects of such patently vicious, yet extremely influential, thinking— no protection for black female rape victims— to adopt a position to rebut such nonsense. There are, however, some problematic conclusions that flow from countering the Cobbses of the world with the idea that no enslaved woman would ever want to consent to sex with a white man, and if there was sex, there was rape. First, rape is determined by the race of the partners without reference to anything we know about the individuals or the circumstances involved. We will always know little or nothing about the vast majority of enslaved women and the scores of them who suffered rape. One might adopt a presumption about those anonymous women in deference to their unquestionable status as victims of slavery. What we know about the way slave women were treated generally should most inform our thoughts about their lives. We are on different terrain when there is information suggesting another possible understanding about what has gone on between one specific man and one specific woman. In those very rare cases, it would be intellectually unsound to ignore evidence, or skip over reasonable inferences, in order to return to the presumption based upon the experiences of the overall group of enslaved women.″ - Gordon-Reed, Annette. The Hemingses of Monticello: An American Family (Kindle Locations 5588-5593). W. W. Norton & Company. Kindle Edition.

69.136.137.85 (talk) 22:29, 6 August 2017 (UTC)

I definitely agree with Gordon-Reed's assessment in regards to Hemings and Jefferson's relationship, although I don't think it would apply to Sally's rumored father, John Wayles. However, as far as I can tell there aren't really any reliable sources by scholars presenting Wayles rumored paternity in that way, so we shouldn't present it as such. Libertybison (talk) 05:18, 7 August 2017 (UTC)

"Slaves" vs. "People he enslaved"

A recent edit changed the word "slave" in multiple places to "(woman) (people) (etc.) he enslaved" - the "he referring to Jefferson. I understand the distinction that is trying to be made here - that this was a PERSON, not a "slave", but rather a person who had been enslaved by others. However, I object to the terminology "a woman he enslaved" as if he done it personally - as if he had taken a free person and enslaved them. Can we just say "enslaved woman", "enslaved person", etc. - as a reasonable substitute for "slave" that does not suggest that Jefferson personally made them into slaves? --MelanieN (talk) 01:56, 13 August 2017 (UTC)

I agree with your point about using the term "woman he enslaved" being inaccurate. However, I must strongly disagree with your point about the word "slave". Of course, a slave is a person. Libertybison (talk) 05:29, 13 August 2017 (UTC)

You're right of course, but this is part of the new kind of political correctness. IMHO it's an awkward construction. I think it's silly to replace every usage of the word "slave" with "enslaved person," but I won't be reverting such changes. YoPienso (talk) 07:09, 13 August 2017 (UTC)

External links modified

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Number of children

I see that Sally Hemmings gave birth to six children in the synopsis at the top of the article, but later it is stated that she only had five children with Thomas Jefferson. Am I to infer that she had a sixth child with another man (which seems inconsistent with her ages at both the beginning and end of her relationship with TJ) or is there a mistake between the two article sections? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.135.206.151 (talk) 21:54, 9 July 2018 (UTC)

No Sally did not have any children with anybody other than Thomas Jefferson. But there is confusion and debate over whether they had 5 or 6 children together. Madison Hemings' 1873 newspaper account said they had five children together, including their first child who "lived but a short time". Jefferson's Farm Book also lists five children born to Sally, with the eldest being her first daughter named Harriet born in 1795 and dying in 1797 (Sally had another daughter with Jefferson named Harriet in 1801). It's unclear if the first child of Thomas Jefferson and Sally who died young mentioned in Madison's account is supposed to be Harriet I or not. Madison claims that Sally was already pregnant when they left Paris in 1789, but Harriet I wasn't born until five years later. Since all of these events happened prior to Madison's 1805 birth, he didn't have any firsthand knowledge of them. So we can't be sure if Madison was mistaken on the number of children born to Sally and Thomas or if he was mistaken on exactly when their first child was born. Sadly, the article is an incoherent and contradictory mess on this point because different editors have made edits based on the 5 or 6 children numbers and there is also no mention of the uncertainty on this point in the article. Libertybison (talk) 21:49, 10 July 2018 (UTC)

Reference re consensus of historians

At the beginning of the article it states, "A consensus of historians believe Jefferson was the father of her five children." The sole Wikipedia reference to this claim is the link, www.monticello.org/sallyhemings/. I don't see where in this link it establishes the fact of this consensus of historians. I do see that this link does clearly note two studies, one by the Thomas Jefferson Foundation, and one by the Thomas Jefferson Heritage Society...which studies came to diametrically opposing conclusions on the matter.

I guess a sort of legalistic claim could be made that within the confines of each of these two studies that an isolated consensus of historians reached their (respective, disparate) conclusions, such that it could be technically claimed that, "[One isolated] consensus of historians believe [Thomas] Jefferson was the father of her five children," but this sort of defense of the existing wording would be highly misleading, to say the least, without also noting that a different, isolated consensus of historians in the other study arrived at the polar opposite conclusion.

Another, even more cynical defense of the current wording I've quoted above would be that it doesn't specify Thomas Jefferson as the Jefferson, even though virtually 100% of naive readers would assume that it was referring to Thomas Jefferson in this sentence. It is technically true that the DNA evidence apparently established that one Jefferson male was a father, but therein lies the rub, as the other study concluded it was highly unlikely that this Jefferson male could have been Thomas Jefferson.

Or alternatively, perhaps I'm just missing in this monticello.org link the noting of a study of historians establishing a current consensus, in which case the article should do a better job bringing that unequivocal factual support to an interested reader's attention. Otherwise, if there is no such study or other basis of requisite academic weight establishing this "consensus of historians", it seems like the intro section of the article should simply highlight the fact that two nearly contemporaneous studies involving historians have reached opposite conclusions on the matter.

I don't care one iota whether Thomas Jefferson was the father or not, so please don't argue the case either way. I do want the article to be accurate with respect to the academic reality and to provide an appropriate reference to the existing claim that a consensus of historians supports only one conclusion. 19:45, 13 July 2018 (UTC)Bdmwiki (talk)