Talk:Pakistan

Template:Outline of knowledge coverage This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 28 August 2018 and 22 December 2018. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): Stephan Keller (article contribs).

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 9 April 2020

Update the population density (absolute) figures and rank. Change “244.4/km² (633.0/sq mi) (56th)” to “273/km² (706/mi²) (33rd)”. Idell (talk) 20:19, 9 April 2020 (UTC)

Do you have a cite for that ?---Wikaviani ^{(talk) (contribs)} 20:22, 9 April 2020 (UTC)

 Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. P.I. Ellsworth  ed. ^put'r there 21:04, 10 April 2020 (UTC)

@Wikaviani and Paine Ellsworth: Change aforementioned parameters to 274/km², rank 15th. See List of countries and dependencies by population density § Density of the most populous countries. Idell (talk) 16:11, 3 June 2020 (UTC)

To editor Idell: sorry, I still see nothing to warrant a change. The reliable source in the list article is still from the 2017 census, which shows the figure we presently use here and does not support the new figure in the list. That figure is even different from the UN estimate. So a source must be produced to support this change to this article. P.I. Ellsworth  ed. ^put'r there 16:24, 5 June 2020 (UTC)

A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion

The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion:

• KFC Sargodha.jpg

Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. —Community Tech bot (talk) 08:52, 17 May 2020 (UTC)

Bahria Icon Tower in economic section of Article is not actually tallest in South Asia

The Baharia Tower as mentioned under economic section is not the tallest tower in South Asia , The Palais Royale is taller than it The Bahria Icon Tower is second tallest in South Asia Nilabh Shivam 333 (talk) 02:12, 23 May 2020 (UTC)

 Done based on the references cited at List of tallest buildings and structures in South Asia. Nice catch! For future reference, though, you should cite your sources directly in an edit request; Wikipedia articles cannot be used as references for other Wikipedia articles. — Tartan357  ^(Talk) 07:24, 25 May 2020 (UTC)

References

"Islamic Pakistan" listed at Redirects for discussion

A discussion is taking place to address the redirect Islamic Pakistan. The discussion will occur at Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2020 June 8#Islamic Pakistan until a consensus is reached, and readers of this page are welcome to contribute to the discussion.  — Mr. Guye (talk) (contribs)  21:18, 8 June 2020 (UTC)

"Pakistani Federation" listed at Redirects for discussion

A discussion is taking place to address the redirect Pakistani Federation. The discussion will occur at Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2020 June 9#Pakistani Federation until a consensus is reached, and readers of this page are welcome to contribute to the discussion.  — Mr. Guye (talk) (contribs)  19:48, 9 June 2020 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 16 June 2020

Please change the Koppen Climate map in this article to the one in the article Climate of Pakistan. The one in that article is more precise. I-82-I (talk) 01:28, 16 June 2020 (UTC)

 Done – Jonesey95 (talk) 14:41, 16 June 2020 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Aurat (word)

Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Aurat (word) has been relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.

Bookku (talk) 07:41, 18 June 2020 (UTC)

en:Draft:Urdu feminist literature

Starting new article en:Draft:Urdu feminist literature. Please add relevant information with references.

Bookku (talk) 03:02, 23 June 2020 (UTC)

Commons files used on this page or its Wikidata item have been nominated for deletion

The following Wikimedia Commons files used on this page or its Wikidata item have been nominated for deletion:

• Jinnah Interchange Gujranwala.jpg
• Orange line metro train Lahore.jpg
• Skyline of Karachi, Pakistan.jpg

Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. —Community Tech bot (talk) 11:08, 23 June 2020 (UTC)

Lead summary

With respect to the partial revert on 22 June, I guess if we were to stay true to both the Heo and Shehabuddin sources (the former was added by me), it makes reference to the regions of British India that had a "Muslim-majority". The reference to the "northwest" won't be necessary given East Bengal too seceded, while the partition was an event, not a movement, that was a precursor to the independence. Thus, keeping in mind WP:SUMMARY, I had condensed the lead to the following to keep it as accurate as possible while linking to the Pakistan Movement, which of course was the main cause for the independent state. The body of the article delves into the rest. Any ideas on how we could restructure and condense the lead in light of these points? Cheers, Mar4d (talk) 20:53, 24 June 2020 (UTC)

User:Mar4d, thank you for your comment. If you'd like to change "northwest" to "Muslim-majority", I can accept that. However, it must be noted that Pakistan was created as a homeland for Indian Muslims and that this occurred through the partition of colonial India. I think that you making those changes, along with retaining the sentence structure I wrote is a good compromise. I hope this helps. With regards, Anupam^Talk 21:23, 24 June 2020 (UTC)

Thanks Anupam. Taking into account the above, I suggest the following as a compromise: "Pakistan gained independence in 1947 as a result of the Pakistan Movement, which sought statehood for the Muslim-majority regions of British India through partition." This would address the three points - the independence movement, the "Muslim-majority" regions, and also the event of partition, whilst meeting concise summary style. Best, Mar4d (talk) 21:56, 24 June 2020 (UTC)

You're welcome User:Mar4d. Your version omits one of the most important aspects about the creation of Pakistan—it being made as a homeland for Indian Muslims. I would therefore suggest keeping your sentence but slightly rewording the first clause of it: "Pakistan was created as a homeland for Indian Muslims in 1947 as a result of the Pakistan Movement, which sought statehood for the Muslim-majority regions of British India through partition." I think that should work. Thoughts? Anupam^Talk 22:33, 24 June 2020 (UTC)

Pakistan's creation as a homeland for Indian Muslims occurred as a result of the elite class of Muslims from the United Provinces and Bihar. Most of the Muslim-majority regions of India didn't demand it. The Sind United Party and Unionist Party held a membership of Muslims, Hindus and Sikhs. This means that above point made by Anupam needs to be taken at face value. Aman Kumar Goel ^(Talk) 02:10, 25 June 2020 (UTC)

@Aman.kumar.goel: The lead isn't discussing the views of individuals or independent parties, but rather the collective position of the Pakistan Movement, which sought independence for the Muslim-majority regions. As such, there's a clear difference between both. @Anupam: Your version seems mostly fine. I will suggest the following tweak: "Pakistan gained independence in 1947 as a result of the Pakistan Movement, which sought a homeland for the Muslim-majority regions of British India through partition." This avoids the problem of repetition. For semantics, the year of independence ought to be mentioned in the opening, and the emphasis on the geographic regions is critical as it served as the basis on which statehood was sought. This is cognisant with and supported by what is mentioned in the Pakistan Declaration, and the outline of the Allahabad Address and Lahore Resolution. Cheers, Mar4d (talk) 04:40, 25 June 2020 (UTC)

User:Mar4d, the references in the lede both mention that Pakistan was created as a "homeland for Indian Muslims". I included this in the compromise version I suggested, which also mentions the "partition", as well as your requirement of including the "Pakistan Movement" and "Muslim-majority regions of British India". The two components that you desire in the lede, as well as the ones that I hold to be important (which are mentioned in the references) are included in that revision. If you can accept this, the article can be updated. Once again, this is the sentence that I am suggesting: "Pakistan was created as a homeland for Indian Muslims in 1947 as a result of the Pakistan Movement, which sought statehood for the Muslim-majority regions of British India through partition." I hope this helps. With regards, Anupam^Talk 03:46, 26 June 2020 (UTC)

Hi Anupam. Thanks for your views. I guess we are essentially stuck with the problem of semantics. The reason I revised my statement to include the term "homeland", as you suggested before, is to commensurate with the historicity of the three documents I mentioned above, which formed the basis of the independence movement. Please refer to the Pakistan Declaration article to understand which specific regions were historically definitional to the formation of Pakistan. You have mentioned that Pakistan became a "homeland for Indian Muslims". It is certainly true that much of the Pakistan independence movement began in the regions now part of India, and a large exchange of population occurred therein from the partition.

However, we also need to appreciate the broader connotations of the term "Indian Muslim" in both the pre-1947 context and post-1947 context. In the post-1947 scenario, which is dominant, "Indian Muslim" will almost certainly refer to a Muslim citizen of the Indian republic. Someone from the South, where the Pakistan Movement for the most part was practically nonexistent, would fit this definition. When juxtaposed into the pre-1947 era, we are again dealing with a substantially non-identical definition of Indian Muslim which is not shaped by the modern boundaries or limitations.

This is where the Lahore Resolution, Pakistan Declaration, Allahabad Address etc. also need to be taken into context and cannot be ignored, because they clearly defined the consensus on which Muslim regions of British India were to form Pakistan, and which were to be excluded. Essentially, even if we accommodated the clause you proposed, we would be vaguely oversimplifying (emphasis) what this really means, including the most central idea of the Lahore Resolution, and of Iqbal in Allahabad, and the definition in the Pakistan Declaration. For this reason, the lead "a homeland for the Muslim-majority regions of British India through partition", factually speaking, more than accurately describes the "Muslim homeland" you mentioned. Hope this helps. Alternatively, if you disagree, we could seek consultation from some prolific but neutral contributors who've expanded content on Pakistani history articles in the past, as I'm sure they could offer good input and source material. Cheers. Mar4d (talk) 15:53, 26 June 2020 (UTC)

@Anupam: Although not perfect, until the time that such a discussion or consensus is had, you could go ahead with the compromise version. I suggest the following: "Pakistan gained independence in 1947 as a homeland for Indian Muslims following the Pakistan Movement, which sought statehood for the Muslim-majority regions of British India through partition." Let me know if you agree. Thanks, Mar4d (talk) 16:18, 26 June 2020 (UTC)

User:Mar4d, thank you for your reply. I am fine with the compromise version you suggested, even though it differs just slightly from my own. Feel free to add it to the article. I hope this helps. With regards, Anupam^Talk 22:47, 26 June 2020 (UTC)

I agree with User:Mar4d that the lead summary should be concise and focused on Pakistan movement itself which is chronologically more relevant and predates Partition and Independence for that matter. I propose reverting to the original version of the text. User:Anupam. Your contributions are appreciated but I would strongly recommend that you discuss editing of sourced content of protected pages, as our more experienced contributors have clearly spent significant time improving these lead paragraphs. This is a fairly major edit in my opinion and should be discussed. KamranHassanUK (talk) 13:08, 25 June 2020 (UTC)

• Mar4d, you just suggested the exact same sentence that you did before. I agree with Anupam that "homeland for Indian Muslims" must be mentioned and that term is given in the sources supporting the sentence. This was the very basis on which Pakistan was created--and this demand for Pakistan was loudest among the Indian Muslims of UP and Bihar (provinces in which Muslims were in the minority, not majority). KamranHassan, there is a discussion here that is going on and your comment here doesn't add much value to it. Aman Kumar Goel ^(Talk) 07:51, 26 June 2020 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 28 June 2020

Please add the Sur Empire after the Mughal Empire in the second paragraph of the lead. Ty 2607:9880:4030:A8:EDCE:CD45:862:5BE0 (talk) 23:22, 28 June 2020 (UTC)

 Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. Megan Barris (Lets talk📧) 08:36, 29 June 2020 (UTC)

@Synoman Barris: Here are the sources. 2607:9880:4030:A8:8520:3CEB:497C:A464 (talk) 15:15, 30 June 2020 (UTC)

I’ll have a look at the sources before answering the ER. I have reinstated the ER. Megan Barris (Lets talk📧) 16:30, 30 June 2020 (UTC)

References

 Done although only 1 reference was enough. I used Spuler since I have nearby access to it. Eggishorn (talk) (contrib) 11:33, 12 July 2020 (UTC)

Requesting attention @ article Talk:Cynthia D. Ritchie

Hi,

I created article Cynthia D. Ritchie in a neutral perspective. It has not received much vandalism up till now but once in a while the article's neutrality is likely to get disturbed being of political nature to an extent. I am myself not good at fighting vandalism and edit wars.

So I would request experienced editors interested in Pakistan topics to add article Cynthia D. Ritchie in their watch list so you can help maintain neutrality of the article. Please do discuss at Talk:Cynthia D. Ritchie

Thanks

Bookku (talk) 06:17, 9 July 2020 (UTC)

New map

As the new map has been released by Pakistan with modified territorial.claims, I would like someone capable of making map to revise areas claimed and replace existing map. Aman Kumar Goel ^(Talk) 10:50, 5 August 2020 (UTC)

• "Pakistan affirms claim to IHK with new map". The Dawn. 2020-08-05. Retrieved 2020-08-05.

What was modified? -- Kautilya3 (talk) 13:17, 5 August 2020 (UTC)

Etymology

Isn't mixing of translation with different languages of different parts of word "Pakistan" and covered by WP:OR as inappropriate? Who the hack written that?

Even if it is confirmed to be appropriate why don't you think that word can 'mean' a 'holy place' (exactly meaning posted sources give to us as translation, no any translation meaning 'land' there, however there's a 'place') and not a 'land of pure'. Any reliable sources of such statement exists (WP:RS)?

I think that statement have to be marked as at least. Please do it or delete such statement from the article.

Other way: Why article is not editable? Isn't a Wikipedia is may be 'edited by everyone'?

When that was changed???