Talk:Kenosha unrest

Requested move 25 August 2020

Kenosha riot → Kenosha protests – Per WP:COMMONNAME. To limit my analysis to news sources I used news.google.com In order not to retrieve older protests/riots, I restricted the searches to last week only. "protests in Kenosha"=20. "Kenosha protests"=28. Total PROTESTS=48. "riots in Kenosha"=8. "Kenosha riots"=12. Total RIOTS=20. Conclusion: protests is *more than twice as common* in news sources! "Jacob Blake protests" would also make sense but only 8 occurrences at present. gidonb (talk) 12:53, 25 August 2020 (UTC)

• Strong Support The news outlets called the riots that are taking place riots. But the majority of demonstrators are in daytime and largely peaceful. Albertaont (talk) 15:43, 25 August 2020 (UTC)

I suggest Jacob Blake protests as the article title. The events are a reaction to the shooting of Jacob Blake. This approach is similar to the George Floyd protests article (which morphed into a global protest movement article with the Minneapolis riots spun off into George Floyd protests in Minneapolis–Saint Paul). Using "Kenosha protests" or "Kenosha riots" as the main article title is far too limiting, especially as other parts of Wisconsin have already had notable events, and it is a way of diminishing the person who was shot. Also, it's not a Kenosha thing anymore.VikingB (talk) 13:48, 25 August 2020 (UTC)

Support VikingB's proposal for consistency, as well as to reflect the accuracy of protests tied to the shooting of Jacob Blake that are not limited to Kenosha. While I also support ShadZ01's proposal, that is a discussion to take place elsewhere, as repeatedly mentioned. --Delta1989 (talk) (contributions) 17:37, 25 August 2020 (UTC)

I say George Floyd protests and this article should be merged into one. Call it United States anti-police brutality protests or 2020 United States unrest like that since these similar events aren't just about George Floyd anymore. ShadZ01 (talk) 14:50, 25 August 2020 (UTC)

A merger and rename discussion would need to happen on the talk page for George Floyd protests.VikingB (talk) 15:07, 25 August 2020 (UTC)

• Support Majority of the protests are peaceful. So it should be renamed. ShadZ01 (talk) 17:35, 25 August 2020 (UTC)

What makes you say that a majority of what is happening in Kenosha was peaceful? Juno (talk) 17:38, 25 August 2020 (UTC)

• Oppose The news outlets call this riots. Protests take place in daylight - these are not protests at night. Lightburst (talk) 15:28, 25 August 2020 (UTC)
• Oppose Same reasons as stated by Lightburst user above, also this article is specifically about the riots and the damage caused by them, which massively overshadow the otherwise hardly notable daytime "protests". I also somewhat support ShadZ01's point about the George Floyd protests namechange, but that's for another talk page. Temeku (talk) 15:51, 25 August 2020 (UTC)
• Oppose per above. Juno (talk) 17:38, 25 August 2020 (UTC)
• Oppose I would hope editors would consider themselves to have a duty to a correct record, and not a duty to media outlets, which are a tool to arrive at the record but are not the record themselves. Distinguishing between protests of no particular note and riots of considerable significance is a pertinent consideration as well. We do not speak of the Greenwood protests; we speak of the Tulsa Race Massacre.Torriende (talk) 17:46, 25 August 2020 (UTC)

  This comment should not be considered too strongly, as the editor is saying reliable sources aren't reliable. And the comp between this event and the Tulsa massacre is odd and out of place. – Muboshgu (talk) 19:56, 25 August 2020 (UTC)

  This comment should be taken into serious consideration, as the editor is claiming media outlets report on different aspects of a social phenomenon, whether out of a bias or for purposes of simplification. Some outlets slant to investigate the political (aka the protest) demonstrations, while others slant to investigate the property damage, physical violence and sense of breakdown in law and order. Reasonable persons may consider these to be two overlapping events, linked by a common trigger, and thus reporting on either may be justified if the phenomenon was the result of various factions with different objectives and methods. The mention of the events of late May 1921 in Tulsa ( historically referred to as the Tulsa Race Riots) further underscores this point. Sean729 (talk) 00:19, 26 August 2020 (UTC)

• Oppose content of the entry focuses on the violence occurring as a result of the Blake shooting, as evidenced by the Events entries. By focusing on the violence the name and content reflect the riots occurring and not the protests. A change in the title will necessitate new content specific to the protests and engender a need for a new entry to cover the Kenosha Riots leveraging the current content of this entry.BrianCLT (talk) 17:49, 25 August 2020 (UTC) — BrianCLT (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.
• Oppose A separate article is more appropriate, as riots and protests are distinctly different things. This article handles the riots, an additional one might handle protests. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.206.161.152 (talk) 17:54, 25 August 2020 (UTC)
• Oppose The article title should at the very least reflect the definitions of the words riot/protest as defined on Wiki itself. "Where protests are part of a systematic and peaceful nonviolent campaign to achieve a particular objective, and involve the use of pressure as well as persuasion, they go beyond mere protest". "A riot is a form of civil disorder commonly characterized by a group lashing out in a violent public disturbance against authority, property or people." Iceness (talk) 18:02, 25 August 2020 (UTC)

References

• Oppose You can't call all the damage that has occurred and what the media and police are calling Rioting and protest. The article already sites damage and victims of the riots. Also anyone can listen and watch the people on the ground and police audio and see this is more than a protest. From Merriam-Webster Definition of riot (Entry 1 of 2)

1a: a violent public disorder

specifically : a tumultuous disturbance of the public peace by three or more persons assembled together and acting with a common intent

b: public violence, tumult, or disorderBurrkilla2 (talk) 18:04, 25 August 2020 (UTC)Burrkilla2 — Burrkilla2 (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.

• Oppose The majority of the content clearly spells out the damage to property caused on the evenings/nights in question. Thus it focuses on the riot that was the cause. The flaw (and likely cause of confusion) is the opening summary that suggests the rioters were largely motivated by ideas espoused by BLM movement. That link is tenuous at best, and could be discarded without affecting the accuracy of the article and its description of the damage, which insofar as can be corroborated by media outlets could provide a more comprehensive record as to the scale of property damage and the intensity of violence. Sean729 (talk) 00:19, 26 August 2020 (UTC)
• Comment. I would not use news sources words frequency to determine a title. News sources are 90% politics based and try imposing a narrative. Writing "peaceful protest" for the 1000th is not going to change the impressive circle of violence we are looking at. The George Floyd Protest was exactly that: a peaceful protest. It changed over time, but it started as a peaceful protest. On the other side, Kenosha riots cannot be labelled as protests (much less, peaceful protests), because on the same day they degenerated into violence. We didn't see moms and dads peacefully marching with symbols. It directly went to fire and destruction. dfumagalli —Preceding undated comment added 18:11, 25 August 2020 (UTC) — Dfumagalli (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.
• Oppose Mainstream media outlets and Google search are brainwashing americans into thinking that mayhem is protest. No! It's rioting when there is looting and destruction of private property! — Preceding unsigned comment added by Premedios (talk • contribs) 18:30, 25 August 2020 (UTC) — Premedios (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.
• Oppose What happened in Kenosha was violence and destruction of property. That's the definition of a riot. Protests are peaceful. LegionaryIX (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 18:34, 25 August 2020 (UTC)
• Oppose Violence is the definition of what's happening. Businesses destroyed and people have been assaulted. These are riots - period. 2605:A000:1005:3A0:58AF:A892:1568:DD05 (talk) 18:39, 25 August 2020 (UTC)
• Oppose Destruction of property, assault and arson imply a degree of lawlessness. A protest usually takes place in a designated area with co-ordination between protesters, law enforcement and local authorities. I fail to see the validity of an argument consisting of 'it's largely peaceful, so it's a protest'. Let's review this article against the light of Wikipedia's greatest strength, i.e. factual accuracy. Harachte (talk) 18:56, 25 August 2020 (UTC)
• Oppose Black rioters are running through town, destroying property, lighting buildings on fire, attacking White people and Police officers, and robbing stores. This is not a protest. It is a violent racially motivated riot. Special:Contributions/2600:1000:B104:7F41:25BB:659:E12D:9233 (talk) 19:25 25 August 2020 (UTC)
• Support We have a lot of IPs and WP:SPAs posting opinions without citing policy. I would not be surprised if there was some off-wiki canvassing going on. Article titles are based on the preponderance of reliable sourcing and per WP:NPOVTITLE, should be neutral. "Riots" is not. "Protests" or "unrest" would be NPOV. Here's a sampling of sourcing (with added emphasis):
  • Kenosha becomes center of nationwide protests after police shoot Black man in front of his children, CNN
  • Jacob Blake Shooting Prompts Tense Protests and Fires in Several Cities, NYT
  • IN PHOTOS: Large protest in downtown Kenosha Monday evening, Kenosha News
  • Protests in Kenosha, Wisconsin over police shooting of Jacob Blake turn violent for second night in row, CBS News
  • Another Night Of Clashes And Unrest In Kenosha, Wis., Following Jacob Blake Shooting, NPR

Naturally, Fox News calls it "rioting".[1] But Fox News is an outlier here; they are a biased source in U.S. politics, as discussed at WP:RSP. – Muboshgu (talk) 19:52, 25 August 2020 (UTC)

Riots The local Kenosha, WI newspaper calls them riots. Look at the photos in the link from 8/24/20 and tell me if that is from protests or riots. The largest wisconsin newspaper Milwaukee Journal Sentinel calls them riots, Newsweek calls them rioters. Lightburst (talk) 20:14, 25 August 2020 (UTC)

Lightburst, Look at the photos in the link from 8/24/20 and tell me if that is from protests or riots. That's not what we do. We don't judge things for ourselves, we say what reliable sources say. And that title says "rioters", as opposed to the Kenosha News link I shared that says "protests", which makes it clear that this is predominantly protests, with some rioting interspersed. Much like the George Floyd protests. – Muboshgu (talk) 21:02, 25 August 2020 (UTC)

Nice catch. instead read the title of that article IN PHOTOS: Rioters set fires in Kenosha, Lightburst (talk) 21:08, 25 August 2020 (UTC)

I did read that title. The other Kenosha News article I shared mentions protests, while that article mentions rioters. Like I said, it's protests that contain some rioting. – Muboshgu (talk) 21:13, 25 August 2020 (UTC)

Muboshgu The title should indeed be neutral. The logic you've applied towards FOX applies likewise towards almost every source that you've linked (namely CNN, NYT and CBSN). Blindly copying MSM rhetoric doesn't ensure Wiki's neutrality, it exacerbates its political bias. Here's an alternative sampling:

• Uptown Kenosha after the riots , Kenosha News
• Locals in Kenosha Attempt to Clean Wreckage after Night of Riots , National Review
• Man Pulls Gun On Reporter During Kenosha Riots , DailyCaller
• As Rioting Lights Up Wisconsin, Democrat Governor Blames Police, TheFederalist Iceness (talk) 21:39, 25 August 2020 (UTC)

Non-neutral but common names are allowed, specifically "Article titles and redirects should anticipate what readers will type as a first guess and balance that with what readers expect to be taken to." BrianCLT (talk) 02:42, 26 August 2020 (UTC)

• Oppose Changing the narrative and calling this a "protest" after all the destruction caused is simply revisionist history. I worry that the neutrality of Wikipedia is being threatened by outside sources in the name of social justice. --2607:FEA8:2C5F:F909:F873:9288:A3F9:B21A (talk) 21:12, 25 August 2020 (UTC)
• per discussion Randy Kryn (talk) 21:15, 25 August 2020 (UTC)
• Oppose. Title should be Kenosha riot or Kenosha rioting. Destruction of property would seem to distinguish rioting from protesting. "Video Shows Armed Residents Protecting Local Businesses From Rioters in Kenosha, WI". Bus stop (talk) 21:21, 25 August 2020 (UTC)

• Oppose and moved to Kenosha riots per reason and argument above. Plus the correct title for this article should be Kenosha riots (plural name) not Kenosha riot (singular name) as per all riots articles or can be Jacob Blake protests if protest spread beyond the city. 180.245.102.250 (talk) 21:53, 25 August 2020 (UTC)

  Comment: The same IP is part of obvious sockpuppetry or canvassing at Talk:Four_color_theorem#Requested_move_22_August_2020. --mfb (talk) 01:16, 26 August 2020 (UTC)

• Oppose. Rioting is simply the OBJECTIVE REALITY of what's been happening in Kenosha over the past few days. There haven't been a bunch of parents with their kids marching peacefully, holding signs, and listening to speeches. There's been looting, arson attacks, assaults, including a business owner nearly beaten to death, guns drawn on reporters, etc. Of course me commenting here probably won't matter, as editors will just point to a handful of partisan neolib outlets like CNN, MSNBC, Vox, NYT, and WaPo, who push a misleading narrative for political reasons, and be like "tHeY sAy 'ProTeSTs,' sO We sHoUld cAlL iT ThAt ToO!!!" But hopefully, at least just this once, objective reality and truth will actually prevail! -2003:CA:871F:47AB:8CCD:DAC:59BE:B0DE (talk) 22:04, 25 August 2020 (UTC)

STRONGLY DISAGREE: Protests are different than riots. Assaulting and intimidating people & burning down and looting businesses is not a protest that's a riot. We need to stop normalizing these riots. Words have meanings, we need to stop perverted those definitions. These are riots, do not change the name from Kenosha Riots to Kenosha Protests, that would be a lie! If Wikipedia wants to continue being the place people turn to for information, that information needs to be factual and accurate. — Preceding unsigned comment added by ChicagoGirlInASoCalWorld (talk • contribs) 19:36, 25 August 2020 (UTC)

• COMMENT It appears that this discussion has been listed on some alt-right page. As a result, we get tons of new editors and editors returning after a long time of absence who put their opinions here. Their general argument is that these are riots because they "feel" that this is the appropriate word. They sidestep the fact that the press overwhelming calls these protests and protesters (or, in other cases, promote conspiracy theories about the press and Google brainwashing Americans). Saying that we need to call these riots because this feels about right, while the press calls these protests, is of course promoting WP:original research, hence clearly conflicting with WP policy. But even if we sidestep the data as well for a moment (we shouldn't but for the sake of the argument), then, still, protests is the only proper word to describe the events. The reason is simple: while protests can be violent, riots cannot be peaceful. Hence protests with elements of violence are per definition protests, NOT riots. It is as simple as that! gidonb (talk) 00:12, 26 August 2020 (UTC)

The prevalence of personal opinion in the majority of comments is apparent and should absolutely be ignored. With that said, a public expression that results in the destruction of public and private property, otherwise the elements of violence, is what Wiki itself defines as a riot. Elements of violence don't spur out of existence because the press overwhelmingly refers to the events as a peaceful protest. Unless there is evidence that the act of public expression is exclusively, not largely, peaceful, the existence of violence makes the entire act a riot, not a protest. So far, there is a staggering amount of evidence listing multiple acts of violence by the very same press. This article's name should reflect the reality of the situation, not mirror the press headlines to the T. Under your logic that protests can be violent and remain protests, 1992 Lost Angeles Riots article would also need to be renamed. Iceness (talk) 01:44, 26 August 2020 (UTC)

Gidonb—you say "Their general argument is that these are riots because they 'feel' that this is the appropriate word." Merriam-Webster defines "riot" as "a violent public disorder". Wouldn't the burning of cars be "a violent public disorder"? I believe that's what transpired. Bus stop (talk) 02:00, 26 August 2020 (UTC)

As I explained, between what an individual believes and carefully picks out of a book and the events in Kenosha and between what authoritative sources say, the sources take strong preference. Otherwise, we promote WP:Original research. I understand that some have this tendency to portray protests by initially mostly African Americans as riots but whenever there are protests of which some forms are nonviolent and others are violent the common denominator is "protests". This part of my text explains why: "The reason is simple: while protests can be violent, riots cannot be peaceful. Hence protests with elements of violence are per definition protests, NOT riots. It is as simple as that!" Again, my policy argument is that contradicting the large bulk of the authoritative sources is promoting WP:OR and Wikipedia articles must not contain original research as it is not neutral and cannot be carried in consensus but this can help you organize it in your mind. gidonb (talk) 06:14, 26 August 2020 (UTC)

• Strong support We should use high quality media such as BBC, CNN, MSNBC source as to writing this article when they definite it as protests, not FOX when i considered more unreliable than BBC which use definition riot for that event. IMO, BBC is a high quality reliable source when writing to evwnt in Kenosha than any other media in the world, even Fox News. 182.1.23.97 (talk) 01:41, 26 August 2020 (UTC)

  Comment: Again, what the media reports does not change the fact that these are violent race riots. Buildings are being burned and looted, Police and Whites attacked and shot at, and other forms of general destruction. To gain an actual image one must see the full story from all perspectives. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2600:1002:B0CB:BCD:740A:41C7:7D5F:9445 (talk) 02:06, 26 August 2020 (UTC)

• STRONGLY OPPOSED: There is a very clear difference between a protest that's peaceful with some sort of civil disobedience, but this is not anything resembling a peaceful protest. The fact that the media lies to everyone and gaslights by utilizing the word "protest" rather than "riot" should be a separate part of the article where we talk about the one sided media coverage. Tim Pool rightly calls this and the riots surrounding George Floyd as they are. They are riots and they should have titles that tell the truth about the situations on the ground. Onstrike (talk) 02:15, 26 August 2020 (UTC)

• Oppose: Reliable sources are referring to violent destruction as being caused by rioters.(CBS 58) Rioters setting fire to homes and apartments, places where people live, and jeopardizing the lives of the residents, does not fall under the umbrella of protesting.--Tdl1060 (talk) 03:10, 26 August 2020 (UTC)

• Oppose: Refer to modern American history and how it references the violence [2] Pictorals from each of the events as described by the History channel refer to them as Riots. Los Angeles Riots, Watts Riots, 1967 Detroit Riots, Zoot Suit Riots, Attica Riots... The Los Angeles Riots were subsequent to the beating of Rodney King. That event mirrors these riots as do the others listed by the History channel. Protests are non-violent. Recent riots have all resulted in murders, attempted murders, serious bodily injury, arson, rapes, etc. These are not the hallmarks of peaceful protests and do not deserve that moniker. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 47.187.241.95 (talk) 03:29, 26 August 2020 (UTC)

• Strongly Oppose: Peaceful people do not attack people or light buildings on fire and protesters have nothing to gain by threatening people in the middle of the night. These are tactics of rioters, oppressors, thugs, and criminals. 657viper (talk) 04:19, 26 August 2020 (UTC)

• Support per Muboshgu. Most RS are calling this a protest. Moreover, "riot" is not a neutral title, especially since (as stated in the article) a local sheriff said that most of the damage was caused by people from outside the county who had no intent to protest. Davey2116 (talk) 06:11, 26 August 2020 (UTC)

• I'd rather change to something like Kenosha unrest or 2020 Kenosha unrest. See Ferguson unrest. Kingofthedead (talk) 06:45, 26 August 2020 (UTC)

I like the fact you are trying to find a compromise. The reliable sources, however, are clear: these are protests and protesters. "Unrest", too, would be WP:OR. As I see it, given the huge quality edge over a massive amount of largely canvassed opinions, this discussion is going into the correct, WP:RS direction. A compromise solution would be worse than calling the protests by what they are: protests. In my comment above I explain why. gidonb (talk) 07:58, 26 August 2020 (UTC)

While I oppose any page move from its current title, using "unrest" as a title would not be WP:OR. There are plenty of reliable sources that use the term "unrest". "Department of Corrections building burned to the ground in Kenosha unrest" (CBS 58), "Kenosha unrest tests political potency of Trump's 'law and order' convention message" (CNN), "Jacob Blake shooting: gun battle in Kenosha on third night of unrest" (The Guardian), "Gov. Tony Evers declares state of emergency in wake of unrest after Kenosha police shooting" (The Cap Times). There are many reliable sources that refer to the situation as unrest, the actions as rioting, and participants as rioters.--Tdl1060 (talk) 08:34, 26 August 2020 (UTC)

• Oppose: Killings occurring, mass property destruction. Riots perfectly describes the event. JoshuaAMarsh 18:09, 26 of August 2020 (AEST) Joshua A Marsh (talk) 08:09, 26 August 2020 (UTC)

• strong support I agree that this should be merged with the floyd protest article, as in this strikes me as a sub event of like the 2020 usa blm protests. If not that, then either protest or unrest. Guardian headlines; "Jacob Blake shooting: gun battle in Kenosha on third night of unrest ", "Shots fired on third night of Wisconsin unrest over police shooting of Black man ", "Clashes at US protest over police shooting of black man"

Revert edit

edit made by 18:22, 25 August 2020‎ 47.198.76.125 which just added a link to autism— Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.75.30.128 (talk • contribs)

 Done – Muboshgu (talk) 19:36, 25 August 2020 (UTC)

Would a link to gaslighting be okay?— Preceding unsigned comment added by 2a02:2f07:b310:5100:5107:d41d:8642:b145 (talk • contribs)

Semi-protected edit request on 25 August 2020

Request to leave the title as "Riots". That is exactly what these are. 8.25.232.162 (talk) 22:27, 25 August 2020 (UTC)

 Not done for now: This will be determined by the move request above on this talk page. P.I. Ellsworth  ed. ^put'r there 22:42, 25 August 2020 (UTC)

Title Change

riot — noun

✔️1. a noisy, violent public disorder caused by a group or crowd of persons, as by a crowd protesting against another group, a government policy, etc., in the streets. ✔️2. Law .a disturbance of the public peace by three or more persons acting together in a disrupting and tumultuous manner in carrying out their private purposes. ✔️3. violent or wild disorder or confusion. ✖️4. a brilliant display: a riot of color. ✖️5. something or someone hilariously funny: You were a riot at the party. ✖️6. unrestrained revelry. ✔️7. an unbridled outbreak, as of emotions, passions, etc. ✖️8. Archaic .loose, wanton living; profligacy.

— verb (used without object) ✔️9. to take part in a riot or disorderly public outbreak. ✖️10. to live in a loose or wanton manner; indulge in unrestrained revelry: Many of the Roman emperors rioted notoriously. ✖️11. Hunting .(of a hound or pack) to pursue an animal other than the intended quarry. ✔️12. to indulge unrestrainedly; run riot.

Burning Buildings, Torching Vehicles, Assulting People non ADW, ADWs, Robberies, Lootings, MURDERS... NONE of this is "Peaceful Protesting"... Do not change the title!!! Mk2jahouser (talk) 06:39, 26 August 2020 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 26 August 2020

Please add template (Use American English) in order to avoid what vandals change spelling for this article from American to British spelling, which seems incorrect for US article. For example is:

• (Use American English) date=August 2020) 180.245.102.250 (talk) 08:21, 26 August 2020 (UTC)

 Done. ◢  Ganbaruby!  (Say hi!) 09:27, 26 August 2020 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 26 August 2020

Casualties should be edited after both non-fatal and fatal shootings on August 26th, 2020. Pictures should be added, many are available. More details of August 25th and of early morning Aug. 26th should be added. Mention of the "Kenosha Guard", a local possibly right-wing militia group, should be added. I am from and live in Kenosha myself and have been following this very closely for obvious reasons. 174.102.253.246 (talk) 08:42, 26 August 2020 (UTC)

 Not done: It's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. ◢  Ganbaruby!  (Say hi!) 09:25, 26 August 2020 (UTC)