Content deleted Content added

Inline

Revision as of 07:13, 14 September 2020

Welcome to the language section
of the Wikipedia reference desk.

skip to bottom

Select a section:

Shortcut

WP:RD/L

Want a faster answer?

Main page: Help searching Wikipedia

How can I get my question answered?

Select the section of the desk that best fits the general topic of your question (see the navigation column to the right).
Post your question to only one section, providing a short header that gives the topic of your question.
Type '~~~~' (that is, four tilde characters) at the end – this signs and dates your contribution so we know who wrote what and when.
Don't post personal contact information – it will be removed. Any answers will be provided here.
Please be as specific as possible, and include all relevant context – the usefulness of answers may depend on the context.
Note:
- We don't answer (and may remove) questions that require medical diagnosis or legal advice.
- We don't answer requests for opinions, predictions or debate.
- We don't do your homework for you, though we'll help you past the stuck point.
- We don't conduct original research or provide a free source of ideas, but we'll help you find information you need.

Ready? Ask a new question!

How do I answer a question?

Main page: Wikipedia:Reference desk/Guidelines

The best answers address the question directly, and back up facts with wikilinks and links to sources. Do not edit others' comments and do not give any medical or legal advice.

September 7

Dreikäsehoch

I read a Donald Duck pocket books comic in German, where a young policeman accidentally botches up an important undercover operation by mistaking the officer in charge of the operation for an escaping criminal and arresting him, letting the real criminal get away. The officer says "Vielleicht solltest du erst mal das hier sehen, du Dreikäsehoch!" while holding up his badge.

Now I picked up from context that Dreikäsehoch is some kind of insult towards the young policeman's intelligence, but what does it exactly mean? JIP | Talk 23:04, 7 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

As far as I know, usually a humorous term for a child ("three-cheeses-high")... AnonMoos (talk) 02:52, 8 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Maybe you should see this first, three-cheeses-high! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 31.53.187.135 (talk) 08:12, 8 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

This word for small children (ca. 4–6, with a connotation of trying to do and learn about things not appropriate for their age) is considered antiquated and characteristic of an old-fashioned sppech style (cf. Wenn Sie diese Wörter kennen, sind Sie alt - "If you know these words, you're old"), but its frequent use by Disney translator Erika Fuchs and successors certainly helped to keep it alive. –Austronesier (talk) 08:30, 8 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

It was a Word of the Week entry on the blog of the German Embassy in Washington. There is a book (in German) with the title Alles über Micky Maus: Vom Dreikäsehoch zum Meisterdetektiv ("Everything about Mickey Mouse: From Dreikäsehoch to Master Detective"). This suggests that the term is somewhat specific to the Disney universe. If we had the title of the story using the term, maybe someone who has a collection of these stories could check of which English phrase this is a translation; perhaps "snotnose"? On the other hand, the German Wikipedia has an article Dreikäsehoch that states that the term has been in use since the 18th century and that its origin is not clear. (The Amazon page would have Disney be the "author" of the book mentioned above, but it is a collection of Mickey stories selected by Gerd Syllwasschy, some of which were translated by Erika Fuchs.) --Lambiam 20:06, 8 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Makes sense. The German article states: Ein Dreikäsehoch ist folglich so groß wie ein Stapel aus drei Käselaiben, meaning "A Dreikäsehoch is therefore as tall as a stack of three cheese loafs". Finnish has a similar expression: vaahtosammuttimen korkuinen, meaning "as tall as a fire extinguisher". JIP | Talk 22:47, 8 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

The title of the story is "Ein Fall für Wachtmeister Karlo", i.e. "A case for policeman Pete". Pete is sentenced to help the police force for one week. At the last day, his partner (the young policeman) botches up the operation due to Pete's negligence. The policeman gets fired from the police, blaming Pete for it. Pete later makes up for it by disguising the policeman as a criminal and infiltrating the criminals who were the target of the operation, purposefully getting them and himself arrested. The police, knowing Pete was on their side, let him go. JIP | Talk 22:53, 8 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

The original was written in Italian by Luca "Tito" Faraci under the title Agente Gambadilegno, il caso è tuo! ("Officer Pete, the Case Is Yours!").^[1] I don't know if it has been translated to other languages than German. --Lambiam 08:06, 9 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

It has also been translated to Finnish, but I don't remember where I read it or what the Finnish title was. I read it in Finnish first and in German later. I haven't read the original Italian story. JIP | Talk 09:10, 9 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

The list of publications and translations can be found here. --Wrongfilter (talk) 09:20, 9 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

The list does not contain any English publication. Funny how a comic that originally started in the United States is translated into almost every other European language except English. JIP | Talk 13:04, 9 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

French has the expression haut comme trois pommes ("as tall as three apples"), which the Dutch Wiktionary gives as the equivalent of drie turven hoog ("three peats tall"; not to be confused with a threepeat). Unlike the German univerbation, all are adjectives. The measurement units vary, but the magnitude of three is a universal constant. --Lambiam 20:09, 9 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

September 10

Alex Ovechkin spy commercial

Can somebody please write down the Russian dialogue from that amazing commercial? I linked the video initially, but it got rejected by a rigid blocker. The commercial is called Alex Ovechkin Spy.

Many thanks in advance, Splićanin (talk) 21:55, 10 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

This one has [cc] subtitles: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JA-okJmri2o —107.15.157.44 (talk) 22:34, 10 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

September 11

Rectifying my Urdu accent

I speak fluent Urdu, but I've spent nearly my entire life in the English-speaking world, which means my Urdu accent is largely derived from that of my parents, rather than through interaction with other speakers. The problem is that my parents are Punjabi, and while I personally am very proud of my ethnic heritage, I find that Urdu speakers are less likely to take me seriously due to my thick accent, as opposed to if I sounded like a speaker from, for example, Delhi or Aligarh.

I want to revamp my accent so that it sounds closer to standard Urdu and less Punjabi-influenced. How can I do this, as a young adult? (For both legal and safety reasons, let's just assume that cultural immersion is not an option.) Thanks, M Imtiaz (talk · contribs) 00:51, 11 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

The more modelling you can take from Urdu sources the better. It would be a lot of repetition but I would suggest starting with Urdu children's shows as they tend to repeat words a few times. If you're familiar with the International Phonetic Alphabet you can use it as a tool to write down the nuances in pronunciation. —Tenryuu 🐲 ( 💬 • 📝 ) 06:16, 11 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

The article Accent reduction might be useful - Q Chris (talk) 08:07, 11 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Without a personal instructor this is challenging. Language labs typically have a set-up with a headset and microphone. For self-study, the student typically immediately repeats a word or phrase they hear (spoken in the accent they want to master), attempting to reproduce its pronunciation. The effectiveness of this immediate feedback loop depends on the ability of the student to hear their speech as others will hear it. As anyone not accustomed to hearing their own voice on recordings can testify, it does not sound the same on the recording as how they normally hear it themselves – "Is that my voice?". Sending the signal from the mic through an amplifier to the headset gives a much better idea how it sounds to others. If the amplifier has two entrances, the sound signal of the speech to be mimicked can also be sent to the headset. --Lambiam 12:21, 11 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

How do American children learn English when they are young?

Forwarding this question from the Chinese refdesk 205.175.118.227 (talk) 01:44, 11 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Why do you imagine that it's significantly different from how children in other countries learn their languages? We have an article language acquisition... AnonMoos (talk) 03:37, 11 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

(edit conflict)

Early language development is fairly universal for all languages:

For American English speakers, there might be some cultural nuance to a child's learning, but as with most children, it involves modeling and positive reinforcement from family and others. The cultural environment (books, TV, etc.) also has an influence. Typically, a an American child knows their 'ABCs' and can identify a few words before kindergarten (age 5). Further language development is then largely supplemented by scholastics. 107.15.157.44 (talk) 03:51, 11 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Is it possible the querent doesn't realize that Americans do not learn English English as a separate language, but just the American variety of English? It's not like Cantonese vs. Putonghua or something. --Orange Mike | Talk 03:57, 11 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

According to our language development article, there are also socioeconomic effects in North American culture:

Specifically in North American culture, maternal race, education, and socioeconomic class influence parent-child interactions in the early linguistic environment. When speaking to their infants, mothers from middle class "incorporate language goals more frequently in their play with their infants," and in turn, their infants produce twice as many vocalizations as lower class infants. Mothers from higher social classes who are better educated also tend to be more verbal, and have more time to spend engaging with their infants in language. Additionally, lower class infants may receive more language input from their siblings and peers than from their mothers.

107.15.157.44 (talk) 04:01, 11 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I wonder if the original OP was thinking of children born in the USA (or a broader interpretation of "America") to parents whose first language is not English, and/or possibly do not speak English at all?

From List of countries by English-speaking population, we see that only 78.95% of US residents speak English as a first language and 16.5% as an additional language, leaving about 4.54% not speaking English at all. It seems likely that most of the last live in communities that predominently speak a non-English language, so children of those communities would have to learn English not from their parents, but from adult community members who do and are prepared to teach them, informally from schoolmates or other age peers, formally from school or other organised lessons, or a combination of these. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 2.122.2.158 (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 11:24, 13 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

September 12

64-point compass

Read the whole of the Points of the compass article. It talks about advanced points; the 16-point compass uses names like "west-southwest", but those new to the 32-point compass are not named like that; their names are like "north by northwest".

Has anyone ever proposed a naming scheme for a 64-point compass?? The article itself says nothing about a 64-point compass. Georgia guy (talk) 00:18, 12 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Reading between the lines (no pun intended), it looks as though the extension went straight from 32, where "Northwest by north" implicitly means "one point north of northwest" ("North by northwest" was used as a film title, but is otherwise meaningless), to 128 (as detailed in Points of the compass#Half- and quarter-points): using only the half-points would give 64 points, but there may have been no stage where half points had become useful but quarter points were beyond available precision. Can any salty dogs enlighten us further? {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 2.122.2.158 (talk) 07:22, 12 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Wading through several articles and rereading the Wikipedia article, it seems that to describe the point between say, east southeast and southeast by south, you would say "east southeast and ½ south". Using these half points gives a 64 point compass. Using quarter points as well gives 128 points. Alansplodge (talk) 14:02, 13 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

September 13

Does U ever come before V in a word that is not a derivative of Latin juvenis??

Juvenis is the Latin word for young. English words derived from it commonly contain uv. But otherwise we always write ov and never uv. Why?? Georgia guy (talk) 00:33, 13 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I found the word mauve. It's a word that came into English directly from French (not via Middle English.) But I still want to know why the uv combination is normally not found in traditional English words. Georgia guy (talk) 01:04, 13 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Uvula comes immediately to mind. --Orange Mike | Talk 01:33, 13 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Many words of Latin origin have uv, but in native English words we write ov and never uv. Any reason?? Georgia guy (talk) 01:42, 13 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

This handy tool gave me 1000 results for words containing the sequence -uv-. Apart from the juven-related words, there are also fluv-, alluv-, Peruvian, and many others. The vast majority seem to be either abbreviations (eg. luv, guv, etc) or ultimately derived from foreign words, but there may be a few true counter-examples. -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 02:01, 13 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

The sequence "uv" (with native short /u/, then pronounced as a foot-vowel ) came to be spelled as "ov" in Middle English to enhance readability in medieval handwriting style, cf. Minim (palaeography). This affected um, un as well, but most thoroughly uv. –Austronesier (talk) 07:50, 13 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Also, before the 17th century, "U" and "V" were the same letter, so a "uv" spelling could actually involve a confusing doubled letter. The ultimate modern English "uv"-spelled word is "luvvy" or "luvvie", a British term for an insincere showbiz type...

-- AnonMoos (talk) 14:54, 13 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Is it known how Middle English luve was pronounced? Did the spelling change induce a change in pronunciation? Or was the spelling change (also?) prompted by a pronunciation change? Middle English phonology#Open-syllable lengthening mentions the change /u/ > /oː/. --Lambiam 18:09, 13 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Allied rock-wallaby

I want to write an entry in my language about this wallaby, But I do not understand why he is called Allied And also what does Allied mean here? please help me. -- 17:54, 13 September 2020 37.142.54.57

A quick look at Google hasn't found me an answer, but I suspect that "allied" here means "closely related to" the other very similar wallabies mentioned in the article. Alansplodge (talk) 18:25, 13 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

The species' scientific name is Petrogale assimilis, and "allied" is clearly just an English translation of assimilis. I don't know the reason that this Latin word was used as the specific name, but Alansplodge's suggestion sounds plausible. Deor (talk) 19:12, 13 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks. In my language this name does not sound good. I know, that the full meaning of the scientific name is "an animal resembling a rock weasel." I will try to think of a solution. There is also a species of bird called that (can not find it at the moment)

(ec) – Several species have the specific epithet assimilis, which in Latin simply means "similar". I suppose it is the counterpart of "allied" in English. The term "alliance" has a specific, although loose, meaning in taxonomy, where allied basically means "(taxonomically) related". Just look at the uses of "allied species" in these book titles: Descriptor List for Plum and Allied Species; Taxonomy and Phylogeny of the 'manna Lichens' and Allied Species (Megasporaceae); The Black spotted, Yellow Borer, Conogethes punctiferalis Guenée and Allied Species. If you need to coin a vernacular common name as a calque of the English common name, you may have to consult a taxonomist who speaks your language. Does בעלי ברית sound totally weird? Perhaps not much weirder than "allied" does in English (to non-taxonomists). --Lambiam 19:31, 13 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

it sounds bad in both options; In fact, it is impossible in terms of syntax, grammar and meaning. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A02:ED0:6D17:3E00:D525:979B:E959:2AAC (talk) 19:42, 13 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Look at what the lead of the article Allied rock-wallaby states: "The allied rock-wallaby ... is very similar to six other species of rock-wallaby found in this area". So I guess the name is the point where the namegiver gave up: yet another one of these *** look-alikes. The similarity is not to "rock weasels"; our P. assimilis is a rock weasel, so taken very literally the binomial name means "[a] similar rock weasel". --Lambiam 19:48, 13 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I'll try to look for the bird that is also called that, maybe it will help us. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A02:ED0:6D17:3E00:D525:979B:E959:2AAC (talk) 19:55, 13 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Interesting fact: At the time this wallaby was scientifically described, there was only one other species besides it (In a group of gray wallabies): Unadorned rock-wallaby. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A02:ED0:6D17:3E00:D525:979B:E959:2AAC (talk) 19:59, 13 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I found the bird: Savanna nightjar (Caprimulgus affinis) Also known as Allied nightjar; Anyone know what the scientific name "affinis" means? Maybe this will help me find more meaning for the word "Allied" In my language. 5.102.238.57 (talk) 20:44, 13 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

"Affinis" is like "affinity". Another way of saying linked to or similar to.--Khajidha (talk) 22:17, 13 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

: Perhaps it would look to help at how other languages name the animal? Russian, for example, calls it the ‘Queensland rock wallaby’, which could be a good solution. For more, see left sidebar on desktop view under ‘Languages’. 70.67.193.176 (talk) 02:00, 14 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

On second thought, that is bad advice. Original research is not allowed on wikipedia, so if you cannot find a source in your own language that names this animal, the only option left is to use the scientific name untranslated. To give it a name yourself would be an original conclusion, and therefore disallowed. Apologies. 70.67.193.176 (talk) 02:08, 14 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I know. That's what I'll probably do. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 37.142.54.57 (talk) 06:17, 14 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

September 14

How many Xs?

Just saw an inconclusive debate on social media about whether people displaying absolute Vaccine hesitancy should be described as anti-vaxers or anti-vaxxers, and perhaps not have a hyphen either? Given that the "x" sound derives from the "cc" in vaccine, that's not much help. I personally don't see much point in "xx". One "x" makes the same sound. Has this neologism evolved enough yet to say anything conclusive on the matter? HiLo48 (talk) 02:16, 14 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

That's a weird one, isn't it? I'm going to guess that it was a conscious stylistic choice, either by members of the group themselves to set themselves apart, or by their opponents to denigrate them, but that's just a guess based on nothing, so let's see whether anyone comes up with anything solid. It reminds me a little of the hyper-Latinism virii as a plural of virus, which is of course totally wrong, nothing right about it, but at least looks superficially like some correct Latin plurals, whereas that silly xx looks like nothing but a porn-movie self-rating. --Trovatore (talk) 04:28, 14 September 2020 (UTC) [reply]

The "Exxon" corporation did it first. They did research ca. 1970, and supposedly found that Maltese was the only moderately well-known language which commonly used the letter combination "xx" in its spelling. "Anti-vaxxer" doesn't make too much sense if you try to sound out the spelling letter-by-letter, but it's a pretty established term by now... AnonMoos (talk) 04:45, 14 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Of course, hence the Maltese Falxxon... --Trovatore (talk) 04:52, 14 September 2020 (UTC) [reply]

Not too sure what that's supposed to mean, but you can look at the spelling of the word for "embassy" on our Maltese language article... AnonMoos (talk) 04:55, 14 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Conjugation of "plead"

Today I discovered that Wiktionary claims that the past tense of plead can be pleaded, pled, or plead, with the last being pronounced the same as pled. Is that accurate? Up to now if I'd seen plead used in the past tense, I would have taken it to be simply an error. But it is the same paradigm as read (whereas the past tense I prefer, pled, is the same paradigm as lead). --Trovatore (talk) 04:09, 14 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

The American Heritage Dictionary's online version lists all three versions of the past tense. Merriam-Webster's online version also lists all three, but with "plead" as an "also" form. The Oxford Dictionaries online version at Lexico only shows "pleaded" and "pled" as past tense. The full Oxford English Dictionary Online (which I can't link to since you need to be a subscriber or belong to an organization that subscribes), says:

The acceptability of plead and pled as past tense and past participle forms has been questioned by commentators on usage; both forms have often been associated with legal usage. For a full discussion of this, with examples, see B. A. Garner Dict. Mod. Legal Usage (ed. 2, 1995) 667.

In the OED Online, the legal uses are under sense 7 and none of the usage examples cited uses "plead" as past tense. I hadn't seen that usage either, and the use of "also" in M-W implies that it's less common than the others. --174.88.168.23 (talk) 07:13, 14 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

@@ Line 130: / Line 130: @@
 Today I discovered that Wiktionary claims that the past tense of [[:wikt:plead|plead]] can be ''pleaded'', ''pled'', or ''plead'', with the last being pronounced the same as ''pled''.  Is that accurate?  Up to now if I'd seen ''plead'' used in the past tense, I would have taken it to be simply an error.  But it is the same paradigm as ''read'' (whereas the past tense I prefer, ''pled'', is the same paradigm as ''lead''). --[[User:Trovatore|Trovatore]] ([[User talk:Trovatore|talk]]) 04:09, 14 September 2020 (UTC)
+:The [[American Heritage Dictionary]]'s online version lists [https://www.ahdictionary.com/word/search.html?q=plead all three versions of the past tense].  [[Merriam-Webster]]'s online version [https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/plead also lists all three, but with "plead" as an "also" form].  The [[Lexico|Oxford Dictionaries online version at Lexico]] [https://www.lexico.com/en/definition/plead only shows "pleaded" and "pled" as past tense].  The full [[Oxford English Dictionary]] Online (which I can't link to since you need to be a subscriber or belong to an organization that subscribes), says:
+:::The acceptability of ''plead'' and ''pled'' as past tense and past participle forms has been questioned by commentators on usage; both forms have often been associated with  legal usage. For a full discussion of this, with examples, see B. A. Garner ''Dict. Mod. Legal Usage'' (ed. 2, 1995) 667.
+:In the OED Online, the legal uses are under sense 7 and none of the usage examples cited uses "plead" as past tense. I hadn't seen that usage either, and the use of "also" in M-W implies that it's less common than the others. --[[Special:Contributions/174.88.168.23|174.88.168.23]] ([[User talk:174.88.168.23|talk]]) 07:13, 14 September 2020 (UTC)