Talk:Comune: Difference between revisions
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::{{re|Justlettersandnumbers}} No, muddle, no merge proposed. Don't make things up. And no, the article is not about the entities of Switzerland, and yes there can be an article about the term, but for that, the current Italy specific article must be moved away. Your oppose makes no sense at all when looking at what you wrote else. [[Special:Contributions/78.54.39.147|78.54.39.147]] ([[User talk:78.54.39.147|talk]]) 11:33, 3 December 2020 (UTC) |
::{{re|Justlettersandnumbers}} No, muddle, no merge proposed. Don't make things up. And no, the article is not about the entities of Switzerland, and yes there can be an article about the term, but for that, the current Italy specific article must be moved away. Your oppose makes no sense at all when looking at what you wrote else. [[Special:Contributions/78.54.39.147|78.54.39.147]] ([[User talk:78.54.39.147|talk]]) 11:33, 3 December 2020 (UTC) |
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::{{re|Justlettersandnumbers}} please remove your offense "This appears to be a muddle, where a merge and a page move are being proposed at the same time." - I didn't do that. Re your Scholar link, what is that supposed to demonstrate? 1640 hits while there are 60400 https://scholar.google.it/scholar?hl=en&as_sdt=0%2C5&q=%22municipality+of%22+italy&btnG= [[User:TerraCyprus|TerraCyprus]] ([[User talk:TerraCyprus|talk]]) 00:25, 5 December 2020 (UTC) |
::{{re|Justlettersandnumbers}} please remove your offense "This appears to be a muddle, where a merge and a page move are being proposed at the same time." - I didn't do that. Re your Scholar link, what is that supposed to demonstrate? 1640 hits while there are 60400 https://scholar.google.it/scholar?hl=en&as_sdt=0%2C5&q=%22municipality+of%22+italy&btnG= [[User:TerraCyprus|TerraCyprus]] ([[User talk:TerraCyprus|talk]]) 00:25, 5 December 2020 (UTC) |
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* '''Comment on [[WP:UE]]''' see another source: https://portal.cor.europa.eu/divisionpowers/Pages/Italy-Introduction.aspx [[User:TerraCyprus|TerraCyprus]] ([[User talk:TerraCyprus|talk]]) 00:34, 5 December 2020 (UTC) |
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Comune / Commune
There seems to be some confusion as to whether "commune" is a legitimate translation of comune. The OED is a little vague; it only mentions "commune" as specifically a French thing, but has a catchall definition that includes almost any kind of communal association, typically referring in the modern day to hippies sharing a house. :-) It would be the most careful of us just to use comune/comuni everywhere. Stan 11:51, 9 Feb 2005 (UTC)
I second that. (The French commune and the Italian comune share historical roots and in their modern forms are similar; but the English word "commune" sets up strange ideas in the mind of the reader, might as well take advantage of the Italian word, at least, being spelled differently.) Bill 22:36, 9 Feb 2005 (UTC)
I agree. "Commune" is an old-fashioned English spelling and is not correct for an Italian comune. The word "comune" has great historical significance in Italy. The closest equivalent would be municipality or township. The spelling of commune, with 2 m-s, has an immediate connotation of Hippie commune or Israeli kibbutz to anyone under 60 who is experienced, well read and not insulated from current events. Basically the spelling of an Italian comune using 2 mms (commune) is a hold over, generally used by elderly people or people who are more provincial. It is incorrect to use it in reference to an Italian comune even though one will find that definition in some archaic Italian to English dictionaries, which are simply reprints or regurgitations of dictionaries from the 1950s or earlier. Some people use it because an English "spell-check" in Word and other such programs gives a prompt to change comune to commune. This does not make it correct. There are, to this day "hippie communes" in North America, Australia, UK, Belgium, Netherlands and many other places where the "60s" live on or have been recreated by younger generations. They are not identical to an Italian Comune. pmn 06:43, 17 August 2005 (UTC)
Consolidation of Comuni
While there is a trend in that direction, it is partly offset by the opposite trend — the occasional comune splitting off — and certainly, it would be wrong to attribute the frazioni and the rural areas inside comuni as being principally, or even very often, due to consolidation. Maybe we need to make it clear that there is no such thing as an unincorporated area (as are common in the USA): every place in Italy, including farmland, belongs to one comune or other; I can't figure out how to state this without unnecessary elaboration. . . . At any rate the composition of the comuni is primarily due to incorporating uninhabited and sparsely inhabited areas. — Bill 00:34, 16 May 2005 (UTC)
- I always thought that there has been a huge commune-merging in Italy in recent decades, like what happened in Germany and Belgium. Does somebody has any informations about it ? Revas 01/06/05
Municipio vs. municipalità
There seems to be a mistake in here, and the linked page on the term municipio. "Municipio" is the equivalent of the city/town hall, the seat of the comune government. The political subdivisions are called "municipalità". Perhaps the confusion is due to a collision with the different usage in Spanish? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.25.15.142 (talk) 02:50, 30 October 2012 (UTC)
Lazio is a not a comune
"As of February 2017 there were 7,982 comuni in Italy; they vary considerably in area and population. For example, the comune of Rome (Lazio) has an area of 1,307.71 km² and a population of 2,761,477, and is both the largest and the most populated comune in Italy."
No.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lazio describes Lazio as an administrative region.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_comuni_of_Italy does not list Lazio as a comune. These are pages directly linked in this article.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_communes_of_the_Metropolitan_City_of_Capital_Rome lists 121 comuni in the province of Rome, in the region of Lazio.
Ventifax (talk) 19:55, 14 May 2017 (UTC)
- Ventifax, Lazio is a regione. Rome is a comune in that region (also the capital of it and of the whole country). The comune of Rome is the largest in the country, as our article says. Is it the parentheses round "Lazio" that are causing confusion? Justlettersandnumbers (talk) 20:06, 14 May 2017 (UTC)
- I see now. Ventifax (talk) 22:16, 15 May 2017 (UTC) But why does Rome need "(Lazio)" in parentheses?
Requested move 8 November 2020
 | It has been proposed in this section that Comune be renamed and moved to Municipalities of Italy. A bot will list this discussion on the requested moves current discussions subpage within an hour of this tag being placed. The discussion may be closed 7 days after being opened, if consensus has been reached (see the closing instructions). Please base arguments on article title policy, and keep discussion succinct and civil. Please use {{subst:requested move}}. Do not use {{requested move/dated}} directly. |
Comune → Municipalities of Italy – 1: WP:UE; 2: Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2014 August 15#Italian municipalities; 3: others in Italy: Regions of Italy, Provinces of Italy, Metropolitan cities of Italy (although there are entities below the level of municipality that use Italian words); 4: comune is ambiguous without mentioning a country and could refer to entities outside Italy, but the article is about those of Italy, it is even used officially in the Italian language, one of the official languages of Switzerland, for municipalities of Switzerland. TerraCyprus (talk) 02:49, 8 November 2020 (UTC) —Relisting. No such user (talk) 14:25, 26 November 2020 (UTC)
- Examples for usage in English of "municipality": https://www.ccre.org/pays/view/23 "Italy is a unitary state composed of municipalities (Comuni), provinces (Province), metropolitan cities (Città metropolitane) and regions (Regioni)." , https://www.istat.it/en/archivio/municipalities , https://www.statista.com/statistics/667138/number-of-municipalities-italy/ ... and more: https://www.google.com/search?q=municipality+site%3Ait TerraCyprus (talk) 03:08, 8 November 2020 (UTC)
- Comment: This content should be merged into List of comuni of Italy (and then that title be renamed to your proposed title) and this title should be a disambiguation page for the dozens of lists of communes pages for several countries. Vaselineeeeeeee★★★ 03:23, 8 November 2020 (UTC)
- Comune exists since 2004, while List of comuni of Italy was created in 2007. Whether to have type article and list in one page or in several can be discussed later, examples for two pages exist, e.g.:Municipalities of Switzerland and List of municipalities of Switzerland. If consensus for move for the main article is reached, a move of List of comuni of Italy to List of municipalities of Italy can follow. TerraCyprus (talk) 03:33, 8 November 2020 (UTC)
- There is also Fusion of Italian municipalities which could be Fusion of municipalities of Italy and several categories inside Category:Municipalities of Italy using "Comuni" which should be fixed. TerraCyprus (talk) 04:02, 8 November 2020 (UTC)
- Comune exists since 2004, while List of comuni of Italy was created in 2007. Whether to have type article and list in one page or in several can be discussed later, examples for two pages exist, e.g.:Municipalities of Switzerland and List of municipalities of Switzerland. If consensus for move for the main article is reached, a move of List of comuni of Italy to List of municipalities of Italy can follow. TerraCyprus (talk) 03:33, 8 November 2020 (UTC)
- Support. Vaselineeeeeeee★★★ 03:40, 8 November 2020 (UTC)
- Oppose I think the word has been adopted into the English dictionary, and is a concise and proper title for the page that follows WP:COMMONNAME.--Ortizesp (talk) 19:10, 10 November 2020 (UTC)
- Comment: Commune is the English. There is no evidence that Comune is the common name in English specifically for those in Italy (as this term is used in several parts of the world). Vaselineeeeeeee★★★ 19:51, 10 November 2020 (UTC)
- User:Ortizesp, you wrote "I think the word has been adopted into the English dictionary". Into which? What you think doesn't matter, please show a link to any English dictionary where it has been adopted into *with* the meaning restricted to municipalities of Italy, i.e. excluding any other usage of the term, specifically for the municipalities in Italian-speaking Switzerland. 77.11.193.68 (talk) 07:05, 16 November 2020 (UTC)
- I found an English dictionary, made in Cambridge, England, that includes it. It is one used for translation from Italian to English. https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/italian-english/comune
- Translation of comune from the GLOBAL Italian–English Dictionary © 2018 K Dictionaries Ltd: comune noun [ masculine ] /ko’mune/ (SUDDIVISIONE TERRITORIALE) municipality, town/city il Comune di Milano the City of Milan
- Translation of comune from the PASSWORD Italian–English Dictionary © 2014 K Dictionaries Ltd: comune noun municipality [noun] a town, city, or other district that has its own government
- 77.11.193.68 (talk) 07:16, 16 November 2020 (UTC)
- Comment - Evidence from Switzerland that "comune" is an official term outside Italy (so the current title is ambiguous) in Italian and that there too the English translation is "municipality" :
- rivasanvitale.ch Comune di Riva San Vitale; in the navigation bar it is translated in English https://www.rivasanvitale.ch/it "COMUNE" https://www.rivasanvitale.ch/en "MUNICIPALITY"
- https://www.cadenazzo.ch/ Comune di ...
- http://muralto.ch/ Comune di ...
- https://www.balerna.ch/ Comune di ...
- https://www.pura.ch/ Comune di ...
- https://www.bioggio.ch/ Comune di ...
- https://www.melide.ch/en/tools/legal-disclaimer.html "The data published on the website of the Municipality of Melide are of a general nature."
- 77.11.193.68 (talk) 08:00, 16 November 2020 (UTC)
- Comment The whole category tree is currently a mess:
- Overlap with Switzerland is the least of the problems. First off, we should decide on format of the singular (comune, commune or municipality) and plural form (comuni or com(m)unes) and then apply that consistently. Perhaps withdrawing this and discussing at WT:ITALY could be the best way forward. No such user (talk) 13:59, 27 November 2020 (UTC)
- In my view, it should be "municipality" and municipalities" in English with the Italian "comune" and "comuni" stated in the lead translations. I've linked to this discussion at WT:ITALY. Vaselineeeeeeee★★★ 14:47, 27 November 2020 (UTC)
- Even as a non-Italian, I'm reasonably used to comune, and we have often used local terms for administrative divisions (gmina, krai etc.) where they do not have a good English equivalent. Thus we have e.g. Communes of France but I understand why it may sound funny to English speakers. OTOH, some others are translated, such as Gemeinden redirecting to Municipalities of Germany. I don't have a strong preference either way (comune or municipality), but those communes are clearly wrong. And plural comuni in English does look stilted. Anyway, we should agree on one term as the primary, with the other mentioned parenthetically on first text, and be consistent throughout. No such user (talk) 15:29, 27 November 2020 (UTC)
- I think it is because "commune" is a French word originally. Overall, I think it would be simpler to have "municipalities" for Italy and put their Italian versions in parentheses in the lead. Vaselineeeeeeee★★★ 16:42, 27 November 2020 (UTC)
- @No such user:
we have often used local terms for administrative divisions (gmina, krai etc.) where they do not have a good English equivalent.
- that is not true, these two each have a "good English equivalent": municipality and territory. 78.54.39.147 (talk) 09:39, 3 December 2020 (UTC)- I'm just describing the state of affairs, not endorsing it. I can agree that gmina (<Gemeinde) is indeed a municipality, and there was a discussion at Talk:Gmina to that effect, but apparently nobody could be arsed to move thousands of obscure articles in Category:Gminas of Poland. As for krai I don't know, but it appears to be far more established translation than "territory".
But I'm not against this move anyway, just pointing out that 1) we should be consistent across Italy and 2) since it can have wide-ranging implications, we should seek a consensus wider than 3-4 editors currently participating here. I'm at loss why Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2014 August 15#Italian municipalities referenced above only moved a dozen categories in Sicily and left the others untouched, but we should avoid that to happen here again. No such user (talk) 10:08, 3 December 2020 (UTC)
- I'm just describing the state of affairs, not endorsing it. I can agree that gmina (<Gemeinde) is indeed a municipality, and there was a discussion at Talk:Gmina to that effect, but apparently nobody could be arsed to move thousands of obscure articles in Category:Gminas of Poland. As for krai I don't know, but it appears to be far more established translation than "territory".
- Even as a non-Italian, I'm reasonably used to comune, and we have often used local terms for administrative divisions (gmina, krai etc.) where they do not have a good English equivalent. Thus we have e.g. Communes of France but I understand why it may sound funny to English speakers. OTOH, some others are translated, such as Gemeinden redirecting to Municipalities of Germany. I don't have a strong preference either way (comune or municipality), but those communes are clearly wrong. And plural comuni in English does look stilted. Anyway, we should agree on one term as the primary, with the other mentioned parenthetically on first text, and be consistent throughout. No such user (talk) 15:29, 27 November 2020 (UTC)
- In my view, it should be "municipality" and municipalities" in English with the Italian "comune" and "comuni" stated in the lead translations. I've linked to this discussion at WT:ITALY. Vaselineeeeeeee★★★ 14:47, 27 November 2020 (UTC)
- Comment: See that for most countries the municipality article uses the English-language word "municipality". France (commune), Italy (comune), Poland (gmina) are off.
78.54.39.147 (talk) 09:39, 3 December 2020 (UTC)
- Thanks for the overview. I hope you don't mind that I collapsed it for readability, feel free to un-collapse it. No such user (talk) 10:08, 3 December 2020 (UTC)
- un-collapsed, too easily ignored otherwise. 78.54.39.147 (talk) 11:33, 3 December 2020 (UTC)
- @IP thanks! Adjusted Moldova and Trinidad and Tobago. TerraCyprus (talk) 23:09, 4 December 2020 (UTC)
- Move request for category for Poland made. TerraCyprus (talk) 00:13, 5 December 2020 (UTC)
- un-collapsed, too easily ignored otherwise. 78.54.39.147 (talk) 11:33, 3 December 2020 (UTC)
- Oppose. This appears to be a muddle, where a merge and a page move are being proposed at the same time. I oppose both proposals. The comune is a notable institution with about a thousand years of history; we should definitely have a page on it, just as we do on raion, vilayet, oblast, comarca and the like, and that page should cover both Italy and Switzerland, with links to our lists of comuni in those countries. To complicate matters slightly, in much of Italy the word is used interchangeably for both the administrative subdivision and the building that houses its government and administration.
- "Comune" is commonly used in reliable English-language publications. The term may sometimes be translated as "municipality" in modern contexts, but never[citation needed] when discussing the mediaeval comuni, where "commune" is sometimes used as a translation; neither translation covers the whole spectrum. There's no evidence presented here that either is the WP:COMMONNAME. A brief series of comparative searches on Scholar for "commune of foo" and "municipality of foo", where foo is an Italian city, did not reveal any pattern; "comune of foo" was consistently less frequent, but consistently non-negligible. I propose that we follow the policy advice at WP:UE and ... follow the conventions of the language appropriate to the subject (German for German politicians, Portuguese for Brazilian towns, and so on). Justlettersandnumbers (talk) 11:10, 3 December 2020 (UTC)
- @Justlettersandnumbers: No, muddle, no merge proposed. Don't make things up. And no, the article is not about the entities of Switzerland, and yes there can be an article about the term, but for that, the current Italy specific article must be moved away. Your oppose makes no sense at all when looking at what you wrote else. 78.54.39.147 (talk) 11:33, 3 December 2020 (UTC)
- @Justlettersandnumbers: please remove your offense "This appears to be a muddle, where a merge and a page move are being proposed at the same time." - I didn't do that. Re your Scholar link, what is that supposed to demonstrate? 1640 hits while there are 60400 https://scholar.google.it/scholar?hl=en&as_sdt=0%2C5&q=%22municipality+of%22+italy&btnG= TerraCyprus (talk) 00:25, 5 December 2020 (UTC)
- Comment on WP:UE see another source: https://portal.cor.europa.eu/divisionpowers/Pages/Italy-Introduction.aspx TerraCyprus (talk) 00:34, 5 December 2020 (UTC)