Talk:Death of Brian Sicknick

Notability Tag

Hi @MJL: I noticed that you placed a {{notability}} tag on the article. Would you please elaborate on how this article may not meet our notability guidelines? Perhaps it might be helpful to discuss at WP:AFD, if you plan to submit a deletion request. Edge3 (talk) 02:44, 1 February 2021 (UTC)

@Edge3: Hey! I have no plans to submit a deletion request, but I did feel it was worth notifying other editors that notability requirements may not have been met here. Specifically, if this was nominated for AFD, I have to imagine they would cite WP:BLP1E. –MJL ‐Talk‐^☖ 02:52, 1 February 2021 (UTC)

@MJL: Thanks for replying so quickly! I'm aware of WP:BLP1E, but in this case, I believe the article is warranted because Sicknick will lie in honor at the Capitol. We already have articles for officers who have died under similar circumstances (Jacob Chestnut and John Gibson), and an AFD discussion was held at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/John Gibson (police officer). Hopefully, these circumstances will be enough to withstand an AFD, should an editor decide to submit a deletion request in the future. Thanks again! Edge3 (talk) 02:58, 1 February 2021 (UTC)

@Edge3: I wasn't aware of that prior discussion. Good to know a similar article was already discussed, so that removes any notability concerns I have at this time. Cheers! –MJL ‐Talk‐^☖ 04:27, 1 February 2021 (UTC)

Ashli Babbitt was shot at the capital and her article did not meet the threshold of notable persons. Brian Sicknick died of a blood clot leading to a stroke a day after the storming of the capital and meets the notable threshold. That should not be seen as an endorsement for the deletion of Brian Sicknick's article, but there is a double standard here that does not align with neutrality or impartiality, since deletion of the Ashli Babbitt article can be seen as attempting to memory hole by a subversive element. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2605:A601:A0C3:5500:C026:F6ED:36A:EBEC (talk) 03:37, 4 February 2021 (UTC)

Brian Sicknick's article was not created until the evening of January 30, after congressional leaders announced that he would be lying in honor at the Capitol. He meets the notability guidelines because he has lain in honor at the Capitol, which is a rare honor given only to five people thus far. In contrast, Ashli Babbitt has not received such an honor. Edge3 (talk) 04:29, 4 February 2021 (UTC)

Being lain in honor is not the notability criteria, rather, people are presumed notable if they have received significant coverage, per WP:BIO. 23:29, 7 February 2021 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Terjen (talk • contribs)

@Terjen: Well, both Ashli Babbitt and Brian Sicknick received a lot of press coverage. (There were stories about her on the news.) See also the "keep" comments on Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Ashli Babbitt. I think the key differentiator here is that Sicknick received honors and recognition that Babbit did not. Edge3 (talk) 00:14, 8 February 2021 (UTC)

Since it came up here, Ashli Babbitt certainly merits a page in the same vein as others killed by the police, as in Breonna Taylor, et al. Sych (talk) 02:20, 16 March 2021 (UTC)

Hello, Sychonic. If you think that there ought to be an article about Ashli Babbitt, then write one that fully complies with policies and guidelines. By the way, the article is Shooting of Breonna Taylor. Cullen³²⁸ Let's discuss it 02:33, 16 March 2021 (UTC)

From reading this sentence, it seems writing one would be a waste of time: “Ashli Babbitt was shot at the capital and her article did not meet the threshold of notable persons.” The notability seems pretty obvious to me since she was the only person directly intentionally killed during an important event. As you point out, Breonna Taylor has a page with the title of “The Shooting of ...” which is the name one for Ashli Babbitt might have too. Her death has been largely ignored by the powers in the media because it does not suit their plot development script, and Wiki is sadly using that as an excuse to omit an important event of the year. Independent judgement seems in short supply as of late. The entire Capitol now has twice as many troops patrolling it as are in Afghanistan, and the death of the only person to be killed during the event that causes such fear from elected officials is dismissed as lacking notability. Didn’t used to be like this around here.

Sych (talk) 03:56, 16 March 2021 (UTC)

This is now a good article, but this needs revisiting - based on what seems to be quite clear consensus across various pages, lying in state in the rotunda is not presumed notability and does not override BIO1E. Unless Mr. Sicknick meets notability guidelines in another way, not just "presumed" for some reason but that actually eclipses and overcomes BIO1E (as well as meeting GNG), I intend to nominate this article for AfD assuming the current two conclude how they are appearing to. -bɜ:ʳkənhɪmez (User/say hi!) 14:43, 16 April 2021 (UTC)

DYK nomination

The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: promoted by SL93 (talk) 01:34, 2 March 2021 (UTC)

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• Comment or view
• Article history

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US Capitol Police Officer Brian Sicknick

Brian Sicknick's basic training photo in 1997

• ... that US Capitol Police officer Brian Sicknick (pictured) wanted to pursue a career in law enforcement since high school, and joined the New Jersey Air National Guard "as a means to that end"? Source: "After Sicknick struggled to find a policing job early on, his family said, in 1997 he joined the New Jersey National Guard “as a means to that end.”" ([1])

• Reviewed: Template:Did you know nominations/Stardock Systems Inc. v. Paul Reiche III and Robert Frederick Ford

Converted from a redirect by Edge3 (talk). Self-nominated at 21:36, 1 February 2021 (UTC).

• Interesting, neutral, cite checks out. Article new enough and lacks outstanding issues. Vaticidalprophet (talk) 16:28, 2 February 2021 (UTC)

Adding "pictured". Image is appropriately licensed and works at DYK size. The 1997 image in the article might also be appropriate given the hook's focus, and is also appropriately licensed. Hook is short enough but only just, could perhaps do with trimming for concision. Espresso Addict (talk) 06:20, 5 February 2021 (UTC)

Great idea! I've added the 1997 image above. Edge3 (talk) 03:29, 6 February 2021 (UTC)

Vaticidalprophet, had a look at promoting this, but the 1997 image needs to be approved. Thanks, --Jack Frost (talk) 14:13, 27 February 2021 (UTC)

I thought Espresso Addict already conducted the review of the 1997 image. But I'm happy for either reviewer to confirm that the 1997 image is approved. Edge3 (talk) 16:31, 27 February 2021 (UTC)

I did indeed check the licence for the 1997 image, which is public domain as created by the US government. Espresso Addict (talk) 19:02, 27 February 2021 (UTC)

blunt force trauma and fire extinguisher reports

There were articles claiming he died from blunt force trauma via being hit in head with fire extinguisher. That seems to have been abandoned now but shouldn't we be explaining that period of reporting? WakandaQT (talk) 07:26, 5 February 2021 (UTC)

Yeah, I think the earlier reports of him getting hit with a fire extinguisher have since been withdrawn, but it's still worthwhile to include in the article. Edge3 (talk) 16:09, 5 February 2021 (UTC)

It's now been confirmed that he was not hit by a fire extinguisher, we absolutely need to change the wording as it leaves it to be open-ended when we know that turned out to not be true.Also using "reportedly" is a weasel wording it is factual. Could a more experienced editor fix this? I think something along lines of:

"Early reports stated the cause of death to be due to blunt force but medical examiners did not find signs that the officer sustained any blunt force trauma."

Here is the quote from the article: "According to one law enforcement official, medical examiners did not find signs that the officer sustained any blunt force trauma, so investigators believe that early reports that he was fatally struck by a fire extinguisher are not true." https://www.kcra.com/article/investigators-struggle-to-build-murder-case-in-death-of-us-capitol-police-officer-brian-sicknick/35397426# Pformenti (talk) 08:14, 9 February 2021 (UTC)

@Pformenti: Feel free to add the content yourself. If there's anything that needs to be fixed, another editor will likely be available to assist you. Edge3 (talk) 23:51, 9 February 2021 (UTC)

I would love to but I get reverted and accused of vandalism when I take the initiative and fear having my edit privileges removed. Pformenti (talk) 10:17, 10 February 2021 (UTC)

@Pformenti: No worries. I'm happy to help. I've just reorganized the article and added some content. Please feel free to take a look and let me know if you have additional suggestions. Edge3 (talk) 17:40, 10 February 2021 (UTC)

The video that shows a fire extinguisher being thrown onto the heads of Capitol Police officers outside shows that they were wearing helmets. So one would not expect to see scrapes or bruising. It's reported that three officers were hit by it. There were also at least another two violent incidents inside with fire extinguishers. Two law enforcement officials told the AP and the Times (presumably the same officials, but not necessarily) that he was struck with a fire extinguisher. One official says there's no autopsy evidence of blunt force trauma. So what makes the case closed? What warrants saying he wasn't, in our article, without a source? ABC reports one protester who threw a fire extinguisher is in jail--50.201.195.170 (talk) 09:49, 15 February 2021 (UTC)

CNN, March 15, 2021: "Investigators determined that initial reports suggesting Sicknick had been struck with a fire extinguisher weren't true." Terjen (talk) 03:50, 16 March 2021 (UTC)

Cause of death

I believe at this point it's fair to say he died of a stroke following exposure to pepper spray. I know there hasn't been anything official yet, but we know he had a stroke and then died. I don't think it's rocket science to say the two are connected somehow. -- Kendrick7^talk 23:21, 17 February 2021 (UTC)

@Kendrick7: The medical examiner hasn't released its findings regarding the cause of death, according to CNN and FOX. The investigation remains open, and while they have speculated on the involvement of pepper spray, nothing has been finalized or ruled out. Edge3 (talk) 03:31, 18 February 2021 (UTC)

Kendrick7, you are entitled to conclude anything you wish about the cause of his death, and it is certainly possible that you are correct. But this does not belong on Wikipedia, unless and until high quality reliable sources say so definitively. That is required by Wikipedia's core content policy Verifiability. Cullen³²⁸ Let's discuss it 03:39, 18 February 2021 (UTC)

OK, fair enough. One more question though: should we still be quoting the retracted part of the NYT story in ref #9? It may cause some confusion, although there's something to be said for tracing the history of the confusion here. The current version of the article/quote now reads "Law enforcement officials initially said Mr. Sicknick was struck with a fire extinguisher, but weeks later, police sources and investigators were at odds over whether he was hit. Medical experts have said he did not die of blunt force trauma, according to one law enforcement official." -- Kendrick7^talk 16:13, 21 February 2021 (UTC)

@Kendrick7: Not sure if you were still expecting a response, as I think some subsequent edits have already started to address the concerns you raised. But in any case, there's a thread below that also touches on the issue of the cause of death and medical examiner's reports. Edge3 (talk) 05:05, 14 March 2021 (UTC)

Medical Examiner

I deleted the sentence in the article that said "and medical examiners found no signs of blunt force trauma." That is not true and it is misleading to readers. The CNN article linked to that sentence actually says, "In Sicknick's case, it's still not known publicly what caused him to collapse the night of the insurrection. Findings from a medical examiner's review have not yet been released and authorities have not made any announcements about that ongoing process." The article goes on to say "According to one law enforcement official, medical examiners did not find signs that the officer sustained any blunt force trauma." In our wiki piece the person who wrote the sentence I deleted did not mention "According to one law enforcement official..." but instead left the reader falsely thinking the medical examiner issued a report that said that. BetsyRMadison (talk) 01:11, 14 March 2021 (UTC)

@BetsyRMadison: I agree with you. Thanks for that edit! I've modified the new sentences a bit, and I also restored the reference to blunt force trauma to the subsequent sentence. I think the new version of the article is much closer to the sources cited, but feel free to make further edits! Edge3 (talk) 05:03, 14 March 2021 (UTC)

@Edge3: Yes, your revision to my sentence looks perfect. Thank you. BetsyRMadison (talk) 05:12, 14 March 2021 (UTC)

Washington Post, March 15, 2021: "Investigators have also determined that he did not die of blunt-force trauma, people familiar with the matter said, speaking on the condition of anonymity to discuss an ongoing investigation." Terjen (talk) 03:42, 16 March 2021 (UTC)

Looks like the medical examiners' report dropped today. Someone might want to add it to the article. Pkeets (talk) 20:42, 19 April 2021 (UTC)

Thanks. Stated cause of death would be nice. Pkeets (talk) 00:10, 20 April 2021 (UTC)

Homicide Investigation

Added a new section in the article "Homicide Investigation."  I also moved a sentences from "Storming of the Capitol" that begins with "On February 10, it was reported that the..." into my new section to make the article flow better. I feel the reader must be told there is an ongoing homicide investigation and that is the reason the cause of death is not publicly released at this time. BetsyRMadison (talk) 05:50, 14 March 2021 (UTC)

@BetsyRMadison: Thanks! I've copyedited it a bit, and I added some {{citation needed}} tags for the quotations in the section you added. Would you happen to have sources for those? Edge3 (talk) 16:16, 14 March 2021 (UTC)

@Edge3: Thank you for your copyedits. I added the missing citations. Leaving them out was an oversight on my part. Sorry. Also, I don't know how to condense a citation that is used multiple times, back-to-back, so if you feel the citations need to be condensed, please do so. Thanks again! BetsyRMadison (talk) 21:10, 14 March 2021 (UTC)

@BetsyRMadison: No worries! Thanks for adding the citations. I've consolidated the duplicate citations through the Visual Editor, since you can copy/paste the citations, and the editor will automatically consolidate them for you. However, if you normally edit through source code, you can consult WP:REFNAME for more guidance. Edge3 (talk) 02:35, 15 March 2021 (UTC)

Statement of the Officer’s Mother

I think it’s relevant that the officer’s mother had made a public statement that she believed her son died from a stroke when NY Times and other media outlets were stoking false stories. Later the UK Guardian reported this:

“The mother of the US Capitol police officer who died following the riot on January 6 believes that her son succumbed to a fatal stroke - that he was not bludgeoned to death by a fire extinguisher as reported.”

It tells people just how this was reported by the media, which itself is part of the incident. It deserves its own page really, but that’s another issue.

Sych (talk) 02:30, 16 March 2021 (UTC)

@Sychonic: Do you have a link to a source? You're welcome to add the content yourself! Edge3 (talk) 02:41, 16 March 2021 (UTC)

Strength of bear spray vs. pepper spray

@Neutrality and Terjen: Looks like we have a potential dispute—see [2], [3], and [4]. I know that you two have also submitted edits previously regarding this statement. Do we actually need to include in the article a comparison between bear spray and pepper spray? Ultimately, Sicknick appears to have been killed by a chemical irritant, and I'm not sure that it helps the reader to know which one was stronger. Plus, we are already providing wikilinks to pepper spray and bear spray. Edge3 (talk) 13:27, 31 March 2021 (UTC)

Requested move 16 April 2021

Brian Sicknick → Death of Brian Sicknick – Per WP:SINGLEEVENT. He is only notable due to a single event involving his death, and our usual article naming convention is to have the title reflect that. Rreagan007 (talk) 14:36, 16 April 2021 (UTC)

Disagree - this should be nominated for AfD and merged into the Capitol Storming article - that is the notable event. Unfortunately, his death is not independently notable either - so if it needs merged it should be to the storming article. I recommend waiting for the two AfDs active on police who lay in state at the rotunda after their deaths for more clear opinion from the rest of community. -bɜ:ʳkənhɪmez (User/say hi!) 14:45, 16 April 2021 (UTC)

Well, I view that is a separate issue. Perhaps his death isn't notable enough to warrant its own article, but as long as this article exists, it should be at the proper title. If you feel the topic does not meet our notability guidelines, then you can nominate it at AfD, but I'd prefer you wait to do that until after this RM nomination has run its course. Rreagan007 (talk) 14:49, 16 April 2021 (UTC)

Agree to renaming, as Sicknick's only claim to fame comes from the circumstances of his death. Don't delete; he laid in state in the Capitol, which makes him a member of a very small group, and his individual death is the subject of continuing coverage (including today's coroner report and the the ensuing trial).Mcrsftdog (talk) 23:55, 19 April 2021 (UTC)