Talk:Shivaji

Change the Name

Dear Wikipedia I have a strong request to you that Chhatrapati Shivaji Maharaj Was A Great Legend Warrior, in fact he is the adored deity of the whole of India. And you are a great source of information And it is not right for us to mention "Chhatrapati Shivaji Maharaj" in a single word like "Shivaji", from one point of view it is a great insult to the deity of Whole India! So change the Name Shivaji and put There "Chhatrapati Shivaji Maharaj". I Hope You will understand 🙏 2409:4042:2C8F:6F5D:0:0:28B:5904 (talk) 11:09, 4 May 2022 (UTC)

No. Because the actual name is Shivaji - he was a king, not a deity. Chhatrapati and Maharaj are honorifics and honorific are not allowed on Wikipedia. Please read WP:HONORIFIC Banglahindu (talk) 00:33, 1 July 2022 (UTC)

Hmmm! But, there can be (convenient?) exceptions. "Meghan Markle" was well-known before she married into the Royal family. But, her page is "Meghan, Duchess of Sussex". Same goes for Kate (Catherine) Middleton - "Catherine, Princess of Wales". I'm sure there are few more examples.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meghan,_Duchess_of_Sussex

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catherine,_Princess_of_Wales 2601:646:9B81:42E0:A558:D9C6:6656:F69C (talk) 23:48, 12 September 2022 (UTC)

Shivaji itself is a honorific. The suffix -ji is said to be a short form of "Jivan", which means a person lives/is immortal which indirectly makes him god or equivalent to god. Exactly that's why -ji is very popular honorific in north India. Other eg is Pitaji (father), Mataji (mother). (Although there is a scarce information to support this on net) His original name was "Shiva", he became a great person so people started calling him Shivaji. The article should be ideally named Shiva 1 (Indian King) to distinguish him from other Shivaji's and Shiva, the god. In this context articles Meghan, Duchess of Sussex and Catherine, Princess of Wales are correct article names, but Peter the great, Mahatma Gandhi is not. A wikipedia-wide change needs to be done here ideally. Vatsmaxed (talk) 12:08, 23 September 2022 (UTC)

• Ji* - is nothing more than addressing someone with respect. Like 'Sir', 'Saheb/Sahab'. I haven't heard or came across it being short fro 'Jivan - which means a person lives/is immortal which indirectly makes him god or equivalent to god'. Your source/s, please? And, may be you can make an edit here -ji. Shivaji 2 and later - are less known. Shivaji is THE Chhatrapati Shivaji. So, ideally, the title should be "Shivaji/Shivaji I, Chhatrapati"?

2601:646:9B81:42E0:B8FD:A469:2F73:71BF (talk) 00:42, 8 October 2022 (UTC)

But, IP editor, that is not really an an analogous situation. If the two article titles you mention had included the phrase "Her Royal Highness", it would have been similar, but not identical, to this article title including "Maharaj". There's been some recent heated discussions on the talk page of William, Prince of Wales where the view was expressed that it was "disrespectful" not to call the article "Prince William, Prince of Wales" – but that's also against Wikipedia's article naming rules.

MOS:HONORIFIC is not the only relevant guideline here. Have a look at the section Use commonly recognizable names in the policy page Wikipedia:Article titles. (Policy is stronger than guideline.) Then have a look at the guideline on names of royalty and nobility; that mainly deals with European royalty, but many of the points apply here as well. Finally, read the guideline on Indic names, especially the section "Titles and honorifics". If, having read that information carefully, you believe that reliable English-language sources so overwhelmingly use the name "Chhatrapati Shivaji Maharaj" that it is the commonly recognizable name, you could start a discussion based on that. But you would need to have strong policy-compliant arguments for such a change. --bonadea contributions talk 14:39, 23 September 2022 (UTC)

in jest... with much respect. Unless, I'm missing something, I don't really see *heated* discussion on William, Prince of Wales talk page. Neither was I looking for verbatim "disrespectful" . There are about dozen folks talking for about a week in early September. Honestly, if you look at Prince_Harry,_Duke_of_Sussex, why isn't it "Harry, Duke of Sussex"? . So, there shouldn't be much noise adding 'Prince' to William's name. Ideally! Isn't that also against Wikipedia's article naming rules, to have it as "*Prince* Harry, Duke of Sussex" as opposed to "Harry,_Duke_of_Sussex]"?

Also, Wikipedia:Naming_conventions_(royalty_and_nobility), Sovereign:4 does cite "Exceptions can be made on a case-by-case basis, taking account of general article titling policy, e.g. Queen Victoria, Alexander Jagiellon". the guideline on Indic names isn't as exhaustive as Wikipedia:Naming_conventions_(royalty_and_nobility), and probably exceptions be added. Thank you! 2601:646:9B81:42E0:B8FD:A469:2F73:71BF (talk) 01:23, 8 October 2022 (UTC)

As I have said in the past, even the University in the city of Kolhapur is named Shivaji University without the honorifics. Adding Chhatrapati and Maharaj before and after his name respectively is a more recent trend, and probably has to do with the political situation in Maharsashtra in recent decades with different parties and groups vying with each other to claim the right to his memory. BTW, Kolhapur was ruled by Shivaji's descendents until the Indian independence. I hope I have made my point.Thanks.Jonathansammy (talk) 16:37, 23 September 2022 (UTC)

(w/ due respect)

No! Sorry to say, you haven't made a point at all. You, probably, may have made a point in the past about "Shivaji University" in Kolhapur, and you certainly highlight that in your reasoning now. (I haven't checked the details of your past reasoning - it's probably archived, and you can guide me to its location). But, that does not make it 'RIGHT' now. Neither, it did then (probably). And, potential political outfits or the past rulers that you raise as a point (VALID - I agree!), shouldn't rob us from logical reasoning and comparing it with what we have there.

Here are few notable examples from Mumbai named after Queen Victoria without the honorific title. That cannot be our explanation and reasoning to strip the title of her wiki And, we *should NOT*. Everyone, has a right place in history.

- Victoria Terminus, Mumbai - now CSMT. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chhatrapati_Shivaji_Terminus

- VJTI: Victoria Jubilee Technical Institute, Mumbai. Premier engineering college in Mumbai, and (perhaps) well-known in India - now, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Veermata_Jijabai_Technological_Institute (my own alma-mater) named after Queen Victoria without the honorifics.

- Victoria Gardens, Mumbai - now, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jijamata_Udyaan.

- Victoria Docks, Mumbai

Not to forget, Victoria Memorial, London. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Victoria_Memorial,_London

All of the above, are prestigious and grand in their own way. So, the way a - Memorial, Railway Station, University, College, Garden, Zoo, Port Authority - is named, should not be our justification. Just my 2 cents. Thanks!

- 2601:646:9B81:42E0:B8FD:A469:2F73:71BF (talk) 23:30, 7 October 2022 (UTC)

Dear Wikipedia as stated in earlier comments it is request to you that Chhatrapati Shivaji Maharaj Was A Great Legend Warrior, in fact he is the adored deity of the whole of India. And you are a great source of information and I think I have to suggest to mention "Chhatrapati Shivaji Maharaj" in a single word like "Shivaji", if you see wiki has already mentioned king Alexander as Alexander the great and also see other legends.If it is honorific there is no problem to mention as Chatrapati Shivaji raje or chatrapati Shivaji maharaj it is request to please update the page name.Wikipedia already providing trustworthy and right information i hope you understand the humble request. Prashant Dange11 (talk) 17:35, 9 October 2022 (UTC)

Dear Wikipedia, I request you to change the name from 'Shivaji' to 'Chhatrapati Shivaji Maharaj'. 'Shiva' & 'Ji' are not different word. It's a single word(name) 'Shivaji'. So we have to give respect to him by calling as 'Chhatrapati Shivaji Maharaj'. Also I request to change name 'Shahaji' to 'Shahaji Raje' and 'Sambhaji' to 'Chhatrapati Sambhaji Maharaj'. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Omkarssalunkhe055 (talk • contribs) 09:31, 11 October 2022 (UTC)

Merger proposal

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section. A summary of the conclusions reached follows.

The result of this discussion was to merge Kshatriya Kulavantas to Shivaji. Akshaypatill (talk) 19:14, 18 September 2022 (UTC)

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The Kshatriya Kulavantas article is only three sentences long. It was created in 2013; if it was ever going to be expanded, it would have been by now. The information it contains is outweighed by the hidden notes and warnings advising editors not to add unsourced caste material, or panegyrics to Shivaji.

Would it be suitable to merge its content here? As I understand it, the title's main notability is its use by Shivaji. I think the article's small amount of material could easily be accommodated here. What do editors here think? AukusRuckus (talk) 13:16, 14 August 2022 (UTC)

@AukusRuckus:, I have wondered the same myself. I don't know what purpose that small page with that title serves. Agree with you 100%.LukeEmily (talk) 20:21, 14 August 2022 (UTC)

Thanks for your thoughts, @LukeEmily:. Both of us, and quite a few other editors too, have had to spend time monitoring and reverting that fiddly little page. It causes more work than it's worth. I'm sure it will still have undue and unsourced material added to it, but at least here it will be on a busy page where that is already happening lots! AukusRuckus (talk) 01:33, 15 August 2022 (UTC)

The merge proposal template on the article was undone, I think by mistake. I am going to reinstate it, but if there's a reason it should not be there, the removing editor can let me know how I've gone wrong. Thanks. AukusRuckus (talk) 01:33, 15 August 2022 (UTC)

Yeah this should be merged for sure. BelgiumFury (talk) 19:09, 16 August 2022 (UTC)

I too agree with the proposal and see no objection from any editor. Closing it.Akshaypatill (talk) 19:14, 18 September 2022 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

I just wanted to thank you for doing the merge, @Akshaypatill. Good stuff. AukusRuckus (talk) 04:28, 19 September 2022 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 1 October 2022

" Please change singular name Shivaji to 'Chatrapati Shivaji Maharaj'. Singular name hurts our emotions" 117.99.247.127 (talk) 04:32, 1 October 2022 (UTC)

 Not done: see above discussion Cannolis (talk) 07:21, 1 October 2022 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 13 October 2022

Your written shivaji bhonsale it wrong surname of shivaji maharaj

         Chatrapati shivaji bhosale this is correct one so please kindly allow me to edit 2405:204:5783:1313:22D1:46FD:B964:7354 (talk) 06:24, 13 October 2022 (UTC)