- Category:Gay Wikipedians (talk|edit|history|logs|links|watch) (XfD|restore)
This category is obviously extremely important to many wikipedians. I came upon it, and saw that it was created as a redirect to Category:LGBT Wikipedians. I took it upon myself, without having knowledge that it was previously deleted, to remove the redirect, and add the category to a few gay-male-specific templates and userboxes; It immediately gained over 270 members with several others adding themselves over the next few days before User:VegaDark redirected it to Category:LGBT Wikipedians explaining to me that it had previously been discussed and deleted/redirected to the LGBT category.
To place everyone into the catch-all category of Category:LGBT Wikipedians is a gross disservice to all who belong within the community and diminishes the importance of the subgroup. I feel that every gay, lesbian, bisexual and transgender wikipedian deserves to be able to freely use categories that enable them to find and collaborate with people of similar points-of-view, world-experience and a mutual understanding of the social and political issues that are not identical to each subgroup; an issue that is basically non-existent for the straight majority who, with little or no conscious effort are able to find others that share their world view by virtue of operating with a straight-is-default mentality. This is luxury that we lack and is only complicated by grouping /everyone/ into LGBT.
The closing argument by wikipedia administrator User: Xoloz stated Deletions endorsed. Prior deletions of other (more "mainstream") gender/sexuality categories do belie the accusations of bias here. The consensus below endorsed the uCfD determination that these "status" categories (like "signs of the zodiac") do not contribute value to the encyclopedia, and may harm it by introducing factionalism.
As stated above, the categories do indeed contribute value to the encyclopedia by allowing people to find and collaborate with those that share experiences, points of view and interests relevant to their current research and page projects. Comparing sexuality to a zodiac sign and a "status symbol" is an offensive diminution of the importance with which we hold our self-esteem and individuality.
As for the introduction of factionalism, there are many categories that do just that. In fact, by virtue of not being all-encompassing, every category technically creates a group of individuals that are and are not included. Does this mean that Religious Wikipedians shouldn't have an associated category? No, it doesn't. Ncboy2010 (talk) 12:21, 27 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- NOTE: - Category:Gay Wikipedians was deleted as a result of the 4 October 2007 uCfD Wikipedia:User categories for discussion/Sexuality and gender identification. The uCfD deletion of Category:Gay Wikipedians was endorsed at the October 10, 2007 DRV Wikipedia:Deletion review/Sexuality and gender identification categories. This present DRV discussion is to address the 4 October 2007 UCFD Wikipedia:User categories for discussion/Sexuality and gender identification/Category:Gay Wikipedians. -- Uzma Gamal (talk)
- Oppose - A userbox or some other userpage notice is fine for self-declaration. The purpose of Wikipedian categories is collaboration, not notification. The collaborative category is Category:Wikipedians interested in LGBT issues. As has been stated many, many times, one does not need to be LGBT to collaborate on LGBT-related topics. We're all Wikipedians here. And the use of LGBT has long standing consensus. See also WP:WikiProject LGBT. And note: This looks like an attempt at XfD 2. This does not look to meet the criteria of a DRV. - jc37 12:32, 27 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- List at CfD exactly per the reasoning in the DRV immediately below. Irrespective of what we used to do years ago, it's reasonable to have a fresh discussion at this point.—S Marshall T/C 13:21, 27 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- Overturn. Category:LGBT Wikipedians is too big. Over 1,400 users are listed in that category, so splitting it in subcategories will help. We have Category:Christian Wikipedians with 22 subcategories, including Christian anarchist Wikipedians, Esoteric Christian Wikipedians, Christadelphian Wikipedians... Double standards?--В и к и T 14:10, 27 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- List at CfD - I don't actually remember past discussions on this topic, so it was probably a while ago... Time to revisit. -- SatyrTN (talk / contribs) 15:08, 27 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- Oppose per Jc37, and delete the existing LGBT category that should have been deleted long ago but was recreated out of process. As Jc points out, this is an identifying category, not a collaboration category. Category:Wikipedians interested in LGBT issues is much more likely to actually do so. In fact, I would imagine it's rather insulting to a gay person to suggest that everyone of them can be grouped together and have some sort of collaborative interest by the mere fact they happen to be attracted to a particular sex- and, even if that were true, we would run in to original research problems. VegaDark (talk) 15:18, 27 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- Overturn or relist I see no issue with self-identification categories on Wikipedia. Encouraging users to express themselves freely without recourse should lead to a more collegial editing environment. And if ever a user's membership in this category were to cause concern concern, the scrutiny should then be applied at those making the judgement rather than those choosing to self-identify.ThemFromSpace 15:45, 27 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- Also noting that this category should be placed within the LGBT category, along with other similar categories of self-identification (bisexual, lesbian, etc) and that this category is appropriate because some members of the LGBT umbrella prefer a more specific label than the catchall term. ThemFromSpace 15:51, 27 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- Overturn. If editors choose to describe themselves in various ways, knowing that can aid collaboration. I have consistently argued against social features on Wikipedia that detract from its mission as an encyclopedia, but the limited degree of interpersonal knowledge provided by categories that many people here and elsewhere consider critically important for self-definition can be helpful, if only to their feeling of community--and making clear our extraordinary diversity. Preventing their use for those who want to use them is in my opinion an undue intrusion into self-expression. (I agree with Vegadark that there are finer distinctions possible among both straight and gay, but there are advantages in not being overly specific--there is a point at which it would detract from our basic purpose.) DGG ( talk ) 17:25, 27 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- (ec) I realise it may be considered an old saw by now, but it's no less true: We're not here for self-expression. We're here to collaboratively build an encyclopedia. And besides that, editors can "self-express" on their user page through a userbox or other userpage notice. Categories are for navigation. There is no collaborative need for such a category. - jc37 17:30, 27 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- categories in mainspace are for navigation. Categories in user space are for collaboration. We are here to build content, but more specifically we are here to build content by working together. Self-expression is part of collaboration--we need at some level to some degree to know one another. I think to a very limited degree, but it would extend to basic things like this. DGG ( talk ) 21:51, 27 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- I understand that perspective, and would be empathetic to it, except that I have never seen "self-identification" categories used for anything more than attempts at canvassing/vote stacking at XfD. Plus, just because one may self-assert they are LGBT, doesn't mean they are interested in editing LGBT topics. We had several situations (zodiac being the largest) where it was made abundantly clear that most people in self-id cats are merely doing so for self-id reasons. Self-ID categories as such are thus merely vanity pages, and that falls afoul of WP:NOT. So with that in mind, we're better off having "interested in collaborating on X topic"-style categories. - jc37 23:11, 30 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- "never seen "self-identification" categories used for anything more than..." Yes you have. See Wikipedia:Deletion review/Log/2007 May 16, Neutral good Wikipedians. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 00:15, 31 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- I'm sorry, I don't see the relevance to the link. I see an assertion (which was disagreed with) that thie cat in question was a "by editing philosophy" cat. And even if we were to accept the premise of the nom, that makes it a "how I will contribute" cat, as I note below. So it isn't relevant to this discussion AFAICT. - jc37 01:34, 31 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- Editing philosophy is a self-identification, and a relevant one at that, and absolutely nothig to do with canvassing of XfD. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 03:11, 3 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- I'm happy to hear that you have never encountered people using the inclusionist category to mass canvass. Or the "against notability" one, or the LGBT one, for that matter. On the other hand, I have seen it. Many many times. - jc37 04:21, 3 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- Oh, I have seen it. But you seemed to suggesting that the *only* use of self-identification categories is canvassing of XfD. I dispute this as an exaggeration. I don’t however dispute that it can often be the case, nor that it is a serious concern, including for this category. I wonder, would it be workable if for self-identification catageories, if it were required that a case be made that it has a project-related purpose that is not for canvassing? --SmokeyJoe (talk) 04:58, 3 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- That's the current requirement for all Wikipedian categories, per WP:USERCAT, and MANY prior discussions, and WP:NOT, for that matter. That they are to be used for a collborative purpose to build the encyclopedia.
- It's what I've said several times: We're all Wikipedians here, how do you want to help? And a person's race/ethnicity/descent and/or sexuality/gender and/or faith/philosophy/religion simply have no bearing on that. And honestly, I question whether it might actually be considered prejudiced to suggest that it does (I'm not saying anyone is, merely that it's an interesting question.) And that not even taking into account that we have "by interest" categories for topics related to these identifications, which makes all of these self-identification categories duplicative.
- I'll restate: These are just IWANTIT categories. With the followup: "If they get theirs, I want mine". It's all just possessive WP:OTHERSTUFF. - jc37 06:07, 3 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- jc37, so you are against Category:Wikipedians by religion, Category:Wikipedians by Wikipedia editing philosophy, Category:Wikipedians by language, Wikipedians by education and nearly everything else under Category:Wikipedians except 'interest' and other project-user-relationship scaffolding? WP:Canvassing isn't dependent on a user category, and in my experience people usually use off-wiki lists of 'friends' to do canvassing. How people use lists of users is as varied as their are people who use them, and misuses (such as canvassing) have their own guidelines. John Vandenberg (chat) 01:06, 31 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- Has nothing to do with me being "against" anything. It has to do with repeated consensus over years regarding Wikipedian cats. See topical index for an overview of such discussions. And also WP:USERCAT. Oh and as far as this discussion note [[3]] - there were three deletion reviews (concerning gay and queer), over several years, all endorsed. And yes, there has been a LOT of use of Wikipedian categories for attempts at vote stacking through canvassing. (Though these days, editors are usually caught early.) - jc37 01:34, 31 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- Your definition of "consensus" must differ quite a lot from mine. There are currently 378 cats within Cat:Wikipedians by Ethnicity and Nationality. Are you suggesting those are all contrary to consensus and should be deleted as well? If so, this isn't the place to make that argument. If not, why single out the minority of Wikipedians who choose to identify on-wiki as gay? Rivertorch (talk) 05:21, 31 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- I didn't do the G4 recreation of this category, someone else did. They were then reverted. This isn't singling anyone or anything out. This is enforcing a previous concensus per policy. If there was new information that wasn't covered in the previous CfD, then I could understand the DRV being started. But there isn't, this is merely IWANTIT trying to use DRV as xfd2. Which is against the DRV guidelines last I checked. - jc37 04:14, 3 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- My point was that the existence of hundreds of categories in Wikipedians by Ethnicity and Nationality indicates a de facto consensus to allow such categories. A further point is that new information per se isn't a prerequisite for new consensus. Rivertorch (talk) 05:16, 3 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- That's like suggesting we shouldn't revert vandalism, because so much of it exists, it must be allowable. (To be clear, I'm not calling this situation vandalism, I'm making a comparison of things which have had repeated consensus to not have on Wikipedia: vandalism (on one hand) and use of Wikipedian categories merely for identification purposes (on the other).) And that without even getting into the G4 issues.
- I suppose I could also quote WP:OTHERSTUFF too... - jc37 06:07, 3 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- Oppose. One doesn't need to be in a category to foster collaboration. If you want to collaborate, join a wikiproject. Also, just because you're in a category doesn't mean you are interested in collaboration. Most people who use the X wikipedian categories use them for nothing more than a way to state who they are at the bottom of their user page. And as is mentioned above, you don't have to belong to x wikipidians to collaborate on x. These categories are nothing more than a way to bring social features to Wikipedia that detract from its mission as an encyclopedia. --Kbdank71 20:05, 27 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- Overturn If someone wishes to identify to a category, that is their business. Just being gay does not mean they necessarily identify with people that are LBT, nor should they be forced to categorize with a larger group because of the lack of a scope they find acceptable little green rosetta(talk)
central scrutinizer 20:09, 27 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- No it's not just "their business". Categories are navigational tools which group pages through the software. If someone wants to self-identify, they can do so through editing their userpage. - jc37 20:25, 27 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- There is Category:Wikipedians by religion with 121 total subcategories, including some really interesting categories like Satanist Wikipedians, [[Chabad-Lubavitch Wikipedians (??), Wikipedians who follow Meher Baba (???). I don't see how is categorization by religion different from categorization by sexuality?--В и к и T 21:05, 27 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- Well-meaning Wikipedians repeatedly create such categories. I haven't looked in Cat:W by Religion lately, last I recall it was only a dozen or so, with a few subcats. But from your comments, I would guess it needs to be looked at... - jc37 22:14, 27 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- Category:Christian Wikipedians actually encourages it: "If a page for that branch of Christianity does not exist, please feel free to create it." - htonl (talk) 17:29, 28 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- Well-meaning or not, the issue should be addressed for all categories as a matter of policy instead of singling out one group. And even if we started out with one group as an example I don't think anyone in their right mind would want to start with gay people. little green rosetta(talk)
central scrutinizer 17:39, 28 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- Starting with? This clean up started well over 7 years ago. This one in particular was over 4 years ago. I appreciate you have an opinion, and you're of course welcome to assert it, but please understand that this is merely clean up after long standing multiple consensus discussions. You may wish to look over WP:USERCAT. - jc37 17:55, 28 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- Jc, do you still not realize that the purpose of this discussion is to indicate that the consensus of 4 years ago no longer holds? DGG ( talk ) 20:28, 28 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- The "purpose of this discussion" is obviously to re-argue an XfD2. There is no "new information" that justifies this to even be at DRV. The DRV nom concerning female, below, at least has that. This, doesn't. And reading over the comments simply reinforces this. Do you see any "Overturn" comments which show anything other than IWANTIT? or ITSHOULDBEALLOWED? And I include your comments, by the way... So no, this is simply an attempt at another bite at the apple, regardless of how long it has been, which, last I checked, was against the guidelines at DRV. - jc37 22:15, 29 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- How else would we indicate that Consensus has Changed? To do that we need either unchallenged bold action (which would obviously not work on this topic), or a general discussion in a conspicuous central place. For XfDs,this is the conspicuous central place. We have previously overturned numerous older discussions on the basis that consensus can change, so why not this one? As for two bites at the apple, are you suggesting that once we decide to keep something we can never consider it for deletion? If not, why should it hold in the opposite direction? This is the rational first step to a CfD2. DGG ( talk ) 22:33, 1 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- How else? Let's see. How about not doing a G4 recreation, having it reverted then going to DRV, among other things? How about instead of all that, start a discussion somewhere (WT:CFD for example). Present your case and see if the community agrees that WP:CCC. And life goes on. BUT NOT RECREATING UNTIL CCC HAS ACTUALLY BEEN DETERMINED. Intentionally recreating a G4 is WP:POINT, running to DRV is WP:PARENT (among other things), and the whole thing is just WP:GAME. Using DRV this way when we have a LONG consensus that DRV is not to be used as XfD2, is simply wrong. - jc37 04:14, 3 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- Overturn per DGG. Insomesia (talk) 23:52, 27 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- Overturn. Anything within reason that can help make new editors feel welcome and engaged in a collaborative effort should be permitted, and self-identification within such a category is well within reason. Rivertorch (talk) 05:26, 29 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- Overturn - It is not right that we allow users to categorize themselves based on their religious beliefs, but not based on their sexual orientation. To have a category that lists gay men can be beneficial to WikiProject LGBT studies by being able to locate users who can contribute to the expansion and development of articles relating to their identification. I would also support categories for Lesbian, Bisexual, and Transgender Wikipedians. There are categories based on which TV shows users watch or what books they read, and surely someone's sexual identification is more important, I think it's offensive. It is important for users who are of a minority sexual orientation to be able identify with each other. NYSMtalk page 11:48, 29 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- They already can. Category:LGBT Wikipedians already exists. Category:Gay Wikipedians is a category redirect to that, per long convention that we do not split such categorisation, but instead use LGBT. - jc37 22:18, 29 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- That it not good enough, I am a gay man and I can't relate to lesbians and transpeople, that category is just throwing all minority sexual orientations together assuming all LGBT people are the same. That would be like forcing "Category:Catholic Wikipedians", "Category:Protestant Wikipedians", and "Category:Eastern Orthodox Wikipedians" to only use the blanket "Category:Christian Wikipedians". It is not justifiable to allow the 3 just mentioned subcategories (+ 19 more) for Christianity alone, but yet not allow any subcategorization for sexual identification. NYSMtalk page 23:48, 29 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- That's an arguement for deleting the LGBT cat (and also several self-identification religion/faith-related categories). And also WP:OTHERSTUFF, and IWANTIT. Nothing there which rises to the criteria of a DRV. - jc37 01:09, 30 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- I support the inclusion of the religious identification categories for the same reason as the sexual orientation categories, for locating users to collaborate in the improvement of their specific WikiProjects. I don't support the inclusion of this category just because "I want it" as you claim, I believe I have stated valid reasons as to why it's existence is warranted. As Rivertorch stated, something that makes new editors feel welcome and engaged in a collaborative effort should be encouraged, the existence of these self identification categories can only be beneficial. NYSMtalk page 01:50, 30 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- such categories already exist: Category:Wikipedians interested in LGBT issues, for example. These clearly show that the intent is collaboration, and not just vanity. - jc37 23:11, 30 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- Overturn as it facilitates collaboration. Dlohcierekim 14:01, 29 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- expansion of rationale I don't have the energy to type out all this, so I'd like to quote some of the things I'd like to say. "Just being gay does not mean they necessarily identify with people that are LBT, nor should they be forced to categorize with a larger group because of the lack of a scope they find acceptable."little green rosetta) For that reason, deleting the thing "is a gross disservice to all who belong within the community."(per undeletion nom) I confess I don't see any benefit to the deletion in the first place, and "I see no issue with self-identification categories on Wikipedia.(ThemFromSpace) Some have scoffed at the catagory as a collaborative tool. The deletion nom stated, "While a userpage notice may be useful, it's not necessary to have a category identifying who the user prefers to have sex with (if any), or what gender a person prefers to identify with. . . ."(Jc37) This completely mises the importance of the category. Anyone "who would use this category self-identifies with a culture and declares a desire to find and be found by other members of the culture for collaboration."(Blue Rasberry) Yes, we are all Wikipedians, but we have all these cat's and userboxes to personalize that experience. Deleting this one diminishes that. Dlohcierekim 02:06, 31 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- Overturn, keep the category This is a useful category per DGG and Nowyouseeme. VegaDark asked "how on earth does the ability to search for users who are attracted to a particular sex benefit the encyclopedia?" The category is not to announce an arbitrary action like attraction to a particular sex but to express a social affinity with a group which shares a cultural identity. The assertion is that the demographic who would use this category self-identifies with a culture and declares a desire to find and be found by other members of the culture for collaboration. This is analogous with other cultural categories like region, profession, or philosophy. There is an precedent of a long-standing community with a gay cultural identity. Blue Rasberry (talk) 21:48, 29 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- We're all Wikipedians here. - jc37 01:09, 30 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- I do not understand what you mean by that. I think that you would not support the redirection of all categories in Category:Wikipedians into that one category because that would not be useful at all. Are you asserting that there is something fundamentally different about a gay cultural identity as opposed to any of the other cultural identities demarcated for collaboration with people who make themselves available as self-identified representatives of a given culture? If so, what is the difference? Blue Rasberry (talk) 12:44, 30 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- I mean what I said: We're all Wikipedians here. When you interact with me, it doesn't matter what race I may be, what ethnicity I may be, what gender I may be, what faith I may choose to believe, or what sexuality. None of that matters. And Wikipedia is not a social site. We allow social niceties to a point because it can help promote positive, collegiate collaboration. Which is why people are allowed to self-identify by declarations on their user pages. But use of categories is for direct collaboration, it is not for self-identification. Another way to put it: Wikipedian categories are for how you or I intend to help, not for how you or I may describe ourselves. - jc37 23:11, 30 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- Overturn, essentially per Insomesia (talk · contribs), above. Cheers, — Cirt (talk) 02:36, 30 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- Allow recreation - The 4 October 2007 UCFD closed didn't list a detailed reason. However, the subsequent October 10, 2007 DRV close noted that the uCfD determination was that the Gay Wikipedians status category (like "signs of the zodiac") does not contribute value to the encyclopedia, and may harm it by introducing factionalism. Wikipedia's change over the past five years is WP:DRVPURPOSE significant new information that has come to light since the 4 October 2007 deletion at UCFD. If Category:Gay Wikipedians is again listed at XfD, the question that should be answered in this modern Wikipedia era is 1. does Category:Gay Wikipedians contribute value to the encyclopedia and 2. does Category:Gay Wikipedians introduce factionalism into this modern Wikipedia era. DRV isn't the place to answer these questions. Since we don't have answers, overturn/allow recreation. -- Uzma Gamal (talk) 11:09, 31 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- Overturn and allow relist. As others have said, it's been quite a while, there's clear evidence that it may be possible (though not certain0 that consensus has changed, and thus now it's time to reconsider whether or not, in the current social state of Wikipedia, such a category is appropriate. I happen to think it is, but such discussions could wait for an RfD. Qwyrxian (talk) 01:46, 2 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- Weak Overturn Though my inkling is to say "oppose", I frequently remind myself that mine is not the only opinion, times change, and knee-jerk is a problem. Those persons wishing to participate in a categorization of "Gay Wiki..." should be allowed to do so if the category is logical to include. Those wishing omission by denial can always BLP/object their way off the list. People feel a need to "socially identify." We may not all feel a linkage for certain categories, but people do devote lifetimes and -styles to participation(s) in commonalities. Having this listed would provide a central point for like-minded and like-behaved persons to seek mutual ideology, informational exposition, and support. Яεñ99 (talk) 12:24, 3 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- Oppose. Doesn't help build the encyclopedia. --Nouniquenames (talk) 03:37, 4 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]
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