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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by Camilo Sanchez (talk | contribs) at 05:36, 24 June 2023 (→Requested move 24 June 2023). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

"Alleged" mutiny?

As far as I've seen, Prigozhin has already said that he is going against the Russian government now, and the Russian government has been issuing statements calling for Prigozhin to be prosecuted for armed rebellion and whatnot. I've seen no reliable sources describe the mutiny as "alleged", it seems that the Russian govt, Wagner group, and most RS' are in agreement that there is a real mutiny here Presidentofyes12 (talk) 23:21, 23 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Despite Prigojin claims that he has "25k troops going for russian MOD in Rostov" - nobody saw them. There is no any evidence of it in 6 hours, while Rostov area is pretty densely populated. So this mutiny is now happening only in media. Lola Rennt (talk) 00:10, 24 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose Right now there is only a social media bubble following this and no confirmed Wagner attacks on russia, especially Rostov-on-Don have happened, all we have right now is blather from Prigozhin. This is alleged. Bigfatman8766 (talk • contribs) 00:41, 24 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    Both the Russian government and Wagner are confirming that it's happening. Most media are reporting on it (sources can easily be found in the discussion right below this one). I don't know what higher standard you need, but that's already far more than a "social media bubble". Chaotic Enby (talk) 00:45, 24 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    >>Most media are reporting on it
    reporting on what? There is no any meaningfull report of Wagner and MOD encounters. There are only claims that there is a mutiny. But no any actual events of Wagner mutiny were reported. Lola Rennt (talk) 01:23, 24 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Mutiny or Rebellion?

I don't know the exact term to be used, But I would say rebellion makes more sense, Wagner PMC is a paramilitary group, and they are not apart of the russian army, A "mutiny" of this size seems more like a rebellion or heck even a civil war. Bigfatman8766 (talk) 23:45, 23 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Well, as of now both seem to be used in sources, although mutiny is used a bit more. We could wait to see what term sets into common usage. I, however, am concerned about whether it should be seen as "alleged" or not, because most sources are now saying that it is, indeed, happening. Presidentofyes12 (talk) 23:49, 23 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
This is an odd case. Both the Wagner Group and the Russian MoD are well-known spreaders of misinformation, so we probably shouldn't take anything they say as true, perhaps only as "claimed". Nythar (💬-🍀) 23:52, 23 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Support rebellion. I've looked into the definitions of mutiny and rebellion more and rebellion would make more sense in this context because Wagner is a private military company, so I would assume that they don't have a legal connection to the russian military, mutiny is used for rebelling against superiors (military officers) however this seems like a direct rebellion against the kremlin and ministry of defense. Bigfatman8766 (talk) 23:56, 23 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Just quickly looking at some of the sources here - rebellion may make sense, but I'd say better titles would be 'Wagner-Russia Skirmishes', 'Wagner-Russo Conflict' for the time being - till we get a more clear image on exactly what is going on. It appears to be way too large for the word 'mutiny' (and also this title wouldn't be easily discoverable). Foxterria (talk) 00:04, 24 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
They're all Russians. Prigozhin claims to still obey Putin. It makes no sense to say Wagner is fighting Russia and that both are separate entities. This is a conflict between Wagner and the Ministry of Offense of the Russian Federation or, more broadly, the Russian professional army. Super Ψ Dro 00:08, 24 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I concur. Wagner is its own paramilitary force, not part of the Russian Military. The term "Mutiny" is completely incorrect to use here. Nohjmich17 (talk) 05:08, 24 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support rebellion. To me it appears to be a more appropriate option and while reading news, many from Russian sources, I haven't seen "mutiny" being used a single time, at least in the translation of Russian-language sources. I am not aware of how are originally English-language sources reporting on this. Super Ψ Dro 00:03, 24 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support mutiny for now- I thought I'd give a proper opinion on this- most sources, as far as I've seen, seem to be citing Russian govt. allegations of "mutiny":
Russia-Ukraine war live: Russia investigates ‘mutiny’ as Wagner chief says ‘evil’ military leaders must be stopped
Mercenary chief vows retaliation after he says Russia killed 2,000 fighters, Kremlin alleges ‘armed mutiny’
Moscow accuses Wagner head of mutiny as Ukraine prepares main thrust in counteroffensive
The list goes on. So I guess it'd make sense to keep it as mutiny for now, although the fact that they seem to be saying that Moscow is accusing Wagner of mutiny could complicate things. Idk Presidentofyes12 (talk) 00:10, 24 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Some sources say the Russian government is accusing Prigozhin of "mutiny" while others of "rebellion" (e.g. [1] [2]). Some sources, when showing Prigozhin's rejection of these accusations, say he denies that he is doing an "armed rebellion" (instead of mutiny) [3]. To me it appears it is a matter of translation. So maybe the issue would then fall on what word is the most appropriate. The meaning of "mutiny" does not look so to me because as some have explained above, Wagner was never subordinated to the Russian government or to whoever they're rebelling against. Super Ψ Dro 00:18, 24 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Per its own article Wagner has always been a de facto arm of the Russian government and military, with Prigozhin being a close confidant of Putin and the other top commanders also being ranked Russian officers. Support "mutiny". Lightspecs (talk) 01:01, 24 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Okay, de facto is understandable. But the fact of the matter remains that Wagner isn't legally, officially, etc., part of the Russian Military. Their chain of command extends to their own leadership, not Russian Military Leadership. Nohjmich17 (talk) 05:18, 24 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support "rebellion" in the title as Wagner is a private group formerly loyal to Moscow, instead of a part of the Russian Armed Forces themselves. Although I still believe it's best to wait until we have a clearer picture of the situation. Chaotic Enby (talk) 00:14, 24 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Neither. It seems to me that currently we have no evidence from WP:RS that there is an actual military rebellion by Wagner forces. All we have is lots of blabla from Prigozhin, criminal charges against him, and panic from official Russian forces with military vehicles driving around and checkpoints. A social media bubble is not an armed rebellion. Boud (talk) 00:18, 24 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
That is not a valid stance. Whether this thing is real or not it is receiving huge media coverage so the article will stay at least for a while. Maybe you'd rather add "alleged" next to either "mutiny" or "rebellion" but it is clear we need to chose between one of the two. Super Ψ Dro 00:22, 24 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Alleged? Yes. An actual rebellion or mutiny ongoing? Not for now at least. We cannot make such claims based on unreliable sources, meaning this page shouldn't have been moved to its current title. Nythar (💬-🍀) 00:23, 24 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The BBC, Reuters and The Guardian are among the outlets that are reporting on this. I do not think they're considered unreliable.
And the current is the first title this article had. It shouldn't be moved without discussion into "alleged". I believe there is a need for a discussion on this talk page for whether we should refer to this as an alleged thing or not just like we're having one for whether we should call this thing a mutiny or a rebellion. Such a discussion has not happened yet. Super Ψ Dro 00:28, 24 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The question is whether reliable sources have independently verified that the events taking place in Russia are a mutiny or rebellion. This has not yet happened, so the status of this event is currently unverified. The title is based on unreliable sources. I agree that we need a formal move request. Nythar (💬-🍀) 00:31, 24 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Yeah I opened one but there has only been one reply there as of now. Presidentofyes12 (talk) 00:32, 24 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The mainstream Western media is reporting on claims of mutiny and using scare quotes to clarify that there's not yet any real evidence of a mutiny. The adjective "alleged" wouldn't make sense, because Prigozhin is claiming that Wagner is rebelling, it's not just the Russian authorities alleging the supposed mutiny. I'm not sure what title to propose, though. Boud (talk) 00:36, 24 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support rebellion It's the term that makes the most sense considering both what Wagner's connection is to Russia, the fact that the term is being used in RS alongside mutiny, and just accuracy of terminology. Even if Wagner is destroyed during the course of this, rebellion seems like the best word to use. SilverserenC 01:25, 24 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support rebellion, Wagner is not a component of the Russian Ground Forces but a separate organization. CJ-Moki (talk) 01:28, 24 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment I question the categories used for this article and whether this can actually be considered a "coup". Since it is not a takeover by the official military forces but action by a private security company, and they haven't actually "taken over" anything yet, this term doesn't seem appropriate. Liz Read! Talk! 01:55, 24 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    I mean, they just took over Rostov-On-Don about 10 minutes ago. SilverserenC 02:35, 24 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    I wouldn't consider it as a coup in my opinion. Prigozhin hasn't made any mentions of removing Putin in his rebellion/mutiny, but he did want to remove Shoigu from Minister of Defence. GodzillamanRor (talk) 03:23, 24 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support Rebellion. Mutiny is a loaded term used by Russian media to describt this. It also implies troops munitying against their commanders, which is definitely not whats happenning here,. AS has been noted, Wagner troops are not part of the Russian army, therefor are not munintying against their commanders. Deathlibrarian (talk) 03:39, 24 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The overwhelming consensus here seems to support a name change to Rebellion, and that seems to be the term used in the media - I'll leave it a while, And then make the change. Deathlibrarian (talk) 03:42, 24 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Comment: I wouldn't call it a "coup", but at least one Russian general has: "Lt. Gen. Vladimir Alekseev, a Russian intelligence official, also posted a video criticizing Wagner's actions on Friday, saying "This is a coup d'etat." Carlstak (talk) 03:54, 24 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Support rebellion or revolt - mutiny is a little lackluster for reasons explained above. Also, oppose coup unless the Wagner Group actually succeeds. - Knightoftheswords281 (Talk · Contribs) 04:47, 24 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Wait & Support Rebellion, since so much of the information is unconfirmed Telegram stories, it seems that waiting and deciding tomorrow is the best choice. Nevertheless, Rebellion would be more fitting based on current information and the most likely information that will be cleared up in the coming days. LocalStinko (talk) 05:05, 24 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Civil War is way, way, way, to early to use here. This conflict is not even remotely on that scale. Lets wait a lot longer. The Russian government right now is unified against Wagner, and reports of Russian soldiers siding with Wagner are few in number and don't really qualify as civil division. Nohjmich17 (talk) 05:12, 24 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Precedent

I think it would be useful to mention that one time in which Wagner captured a Russian colonel who was publicly humiliated into admitting he had ordered to shoot at Wagner forces because he was drunk or something. I think it was the only real conflict or clash between Wagner and Russian professionals prior to this. This is what I am talking about: [4] [5]. Super Ψ Dro 00:06, 24 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I just added this, but it could need rephrasing or to be moved to a different place. Idk Presidentofyes12 (talk) 00:16, 24 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Alleged fighting in Rostov-on-Don?

Several videos and claims of clashes between the MoD and Wagner in Rostov are circulating, eg [6]. Should these be mentioned, or should we wait for more sources to report on these? If it turns out to be a major fight, should there be a separate article for the "battle"? Chaotic Enby (talk) 01:03, 24 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

It could be an option that we make a mention of "Unconfirmed footage of clashes", Since we don't have any way of confirming them as of right now. OneMoron (talk) 01:18, 24 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Agree with this! Chaotic Enby (talk) 01:21, 24 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I also agree with this, so long as they're mentioned in WP:RS. CJ-Moki (talk) 01:29, 24 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
But it isn't. This tweet is not a reliable source. Nythar (💬-🍀) 01:31, 24 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
That's why it should say "unverified claims". War Monitor is usually right about a lot of things -- just in my experience. Professor Penguino (talk) 05:03, 24 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
We are gonna need to wait for reliable sources to report on the issue, it just occurred less than an hour ago, it could be a second civil war 47.40.177.156 (talk) 05:25, 24 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

wwi comparrison

WP:NOTFORUM
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.

someone needs to compare and contrast the start of the russian revolution. 2602:306:BC74:6240:2D1B:6FD8:BBA:3BE0 (talk) 01:40, 24 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

1993 constitutional crisis in see also

I can't edit, can someone add it? Egezort (talk) 01:46, 24 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

 Done CJ-Moki (talk) 01:48, 24 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Someone should add a wikibox

This is a staple of all conflict Wikipedia pages, but this certain page doesnt have one. Russian Wikipedia has already done it... why cant we? Brojiden69 (talk) 02:10, 24 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Facts dude truthfully Bigbreh (talk) 02:14, 24 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I tried adding one earlier, but ElijahPepe removed it. I agree that the article should have an infobox. CJ-Moki (talk) 02:15, 24 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I would say add the infobox, but don't include the combatant or commander parameters. So something like this:
Wagner Group rebellion
Part of Russian invasion of Ukraine
Date23 June 2023 – present
Location
Ukraine, Russia
Status Ongoing
Gust Justice (talk) 02:31, 24 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Small edit suggestion

I think that "and claimed that Shoigu had allegedly" is a little redundant and could be shortened to "and alleged that Shoigu had". Largely Legible Layman (talk) 02:41, 24 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

 Done CJ-Moki (talk) 02:43, 24 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Requested move 24 June 2023

Wagner Group mutiny → Wagner Rebellion – The renaming of this article from Mutiny to Rebellion has been discussed, with the overwhelming consensus being the the term "mutiny" is incorrect (for a number of reasons), and that the article should be renamed "Wagner Rebellion" Thanks! https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Wagner_Group_mutiny#Mutiny_or_Rebellion? Deathlibrarian (talk) 04:13, 24 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I think it should be Wagner Group Rebellion, to keep the full name in. Bigfatman8766 (talk) 04:31, 24 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Agree This is no longer a simply mutiny, it’s an armed rebellion, which means the entire crisis in Russia and Ukraine has 3 sides now: Ukraine and Russian Opposition, Russian Gov. and Wagner Group. Who knows, it might escalate into a civil war!
TheTechnologyGuy23 (talk) 04:47, 24 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
But yeah, 2023 Wagner Group Rebellion is a better title. TheTechnologyGuy23 (talk) 04:48, 24 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
If Wagner comes to Moscow and takes power, then the article should be named the 2023 Russian coup d’etat. TheTechnologyGuy23 (talk) 04:52, 24 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I agree with this, but only if it comes to this scenario. Although it seems unlikely as Moscow authorities are on high alert and Prigozhin has no intent of ousting Putin. AmericanBaath (talk) 05:04, 24 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I agree, but shouldn't it be changed to something along the lines of 2023 Russian Civil War? Given that now Russian forces are rebelling alongside Wagner forces against Putin and skirmishes, shelling, and battles have begun in full force, that means it is a Civil war, not just a coup d'etat - I think it should be stated as it is as bluntly as possible. Spitfire3k (talk) 04:56, 24 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
There should be mention of a civil war as a hypothetical possibility, however this appears to be a contained rebellion at the moment. Fighting has mostly been containted to Rostov-on-Don, although there are reports of it moving up the M4 highway towards Moscow. AmericanBaath (talk) 05:00, 24 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I don't think proper to consider it a civil war since it hasnt been confirmed that there are full on battles and skirmishes in order for it to be considered a civil war between Wagner PMC and the russian state. A rebellion is a more proper description of the situation. DNMWN (talk) 05:00, 24 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Agree - The article should be renamed 2023 Wagner Group rebellion, which is also the red-link article for the stiuation on Simple English Wikipedia. AmericanBaath (talk) 04:58, 24 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Agree, with caveats: No casualties yet to determine a civil war (also, may need to have civil parties to a conflict to be a civil war). But, also, revolt might be better for now. Support, but give it a day (really, a few hours) to see what else transpires. — Javert2113 (Siarad.|¤) 04:59, 24 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Comment - at this stage, it is a rebellion. It could become a civil war, if more forces side with Wagner, but at the current stage, you couldn't describe it as that. Deathlibrarian (talk) 05:05, 24 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I’m willing to bet that the communists and other political movements based around revolution will revolt soon if Wagner destabilises the government enough 47.40.177.156 (talk) 05:35, 24 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Agree - Being renamed as rebellion would be the proper description as they are not officially related to the russian state, so it is not mutiny.
DNMWN (talk) 05:02, 24 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Agreed, should not be labelled civil war, way too premature for that, but it has definitely gone beyond a mutiny. Mutinies are usually contained to where they start, whereas this has moved on to marching into and controlling areas beyond its origin and has an ultimate goal of occupation with the possibility of structural changes in authority at the top of the Russian government. Definitely more in line with rebellion. Pmgrunert (talk) 05:07, 24 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment - Hypothetically, if other groups joined this rebellion, what would be the name? Second Russian Civil War? Bigfatman8766 (talk) 05:18, 24 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    Possibly, it depends how the events unfold. "2023 Russian insurgency" could also be a viable title. I feel like going as far as to call it a "Second Russian Civil War" would require a lot more than just the expansion of the rebellion, but the total collapse of the Russian Federation into warring factions. AmericanBaath (talk) 05:22, 24 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Agree - If Russia wins, it should be called "2023 Russian insurgency". If Russia loses it should be called "Second Russian Civil War" or "Russian Civil War (2023)". Bigfatman8766 (talk) 05:27, 24 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
We may see a second civil war, history will tell 47.40.177.156 (talk) 05:36, 24 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Wait. Perhaps the article should be renamed to 2023 Russian coup d'etat in the future). I suggest to wait until the events end and/or become clear. Just like the Sudan case. PLATEL (talk) 05:21, 24 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Wait - just about nothing has happened besides some videos of tanks, there have been no casualties (at least that I've seen). For example, this could easily be some sort of distraction by Russia to disguise a new offensive; it is too early to determine what this is GLORIOUSEXISTENCE (talk) 05:31, 24 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Wait. Camilo Sánchez Talk to me 05:36, 24 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Possible involvement from other Russian military units

Multiple videos/images circulating currently of soldiers fighting alongside Wagner in Rostov wearing patches consistent with the Russian National Guard as well as vehicles belonging to other units. Nothing confirmed in terms of media coverage but just be on the lookout for it so we can update the infobox as needed.

If and when media begin to report on it, I would begin to think of this more as a coup attempt rather than a mutiny or a rebellion and would recommend changing the article title to reflect that. QuaintCable (talk) 04:21, 24 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Additional Reaction to Mutiny

Add Exiled Russian-Jewish Billionarie and Liberal opposition activist Mikhail Khodorkovsky's support for the Wagner group expressed in the following posts under the "International Reactions" topic:

https://t.me/khodorkovski/8345 https://archive.is/lb1xv LocalStinko (talk) 04:31, 24 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Dmitry Utkin in commanders and leaders

The infobox lists Dmitry Utkin in the "commanders and leanders" for the Wagner Group. There seems to be a lack of evidence for involvement by Utkin, however, and the man has made no public appearances since 2016. Is there any reason to believe he is involved? AmericanBaath (talk) 05:07, 24 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Nope. I removed him and the other commander earlier and was reverted without explanation. I'm going to re-remove the material. HappyWith (talk) 05:28, 24 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]


Requested move 24 June 2023, adding "Group" and "2023"

:As we said in the other Requested move, people agree on adding group and 2023 to it. Bigfatman8766 (talk) 05:12, 24 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Partial Agree - I also think we should "2023" to the title and make "rebellion" lower case, making it 2023 Wagner Group rebellion. AmericanBaath (talk) 05:19, 24 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Agree with AmericanBaath: in full. — Javert2113 (Siarad.|¤) 05:31, 24 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Is it appropriate to call this a coup?

I don't think there is enough information out as of yet to warrant calling this a coup, much less a Civil War. What do you guys think? Professor Penguino (talk) 05:25, 24 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Nope. Coups succeed in toppling governments, by definition. Nothing yet to show that occurring here. — Javert2113 (Siarad.|¤) 05:30, 24 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Agreed Professor Penguino (talk) 05:30, 24 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Should a map be included?

Given that this is pretty clearly a revolt, should we create a map of some sort? I've already have one pre-made, though I've realized that mapping out the specifics at this point is difficult for obvious reasons. - Knightoftheswords281 (Talk · Contribs) 05:31, 24 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Casualties

Recently found a video of a "downed Wagner helicopter" https://t.me/rusbrief/129265 Clearly see the tail of the helicopter as something is burning 76.132.246.141 (talk) 05:34, 24 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

https://t.me/milinfolive/102549?single
Another of a burning Wagner technical pickup truck and claims that there is an unknown truck burning as well but not shown in the photo 76.132.246.141 (talk) 05:36, 24 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
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