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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by Cakelot1 (talk | contribs) at 06:52, 7 August 2023 (moved talk banner to better place). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

RfC on footnote in lede

Should the lede sentence of Man, "A man is an adult male human", include a footnote saying that male may refer to sex or gender?

As it is now, some readers may read "male" as sex, and others may read "male" as gender, which may result in confusion. So, some options are:

  • A - Keep it as it is: "A man is an adult male human."
  • B - Add a footnote saying "Male may refer to sex or gender."
  • C - Add a footnote saying "Male in this case meaning belonging to the sex which typically produces sperm, or to the gender which is typically associated with it." (using the wiktionary definition)
  • Other - suggest another idea if you think something else could work.

We can of course add references to the statement, like from Merriam Webster, OED, and Cambridge English Dictionary if needed.

Edit on April 27 2023: I'm adding a better alternative "E" as a reply to this message.

Born25121642 (talk) 22:20, 26 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

  • Other/D or B Option D - Inline the footnote by rephrasing the first sentence to "A man is an adult human of the male sex or gender identity". Having this as an inlined clarification seems like a neater solution to me than putting this into a footnote that many people just won't read. Though if there's not enough support for inlining this, then I prefer B for its simplicity. Sideswipe9th (talk) 22:36, 26 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    Also, because this issue also keeps happening at Woman, I would suggest that whatever solution we find a consensus for here, if it is different from the status quo, we adapt in principle for that article. Sideswipe9th (talk) 22:42, 26 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    That makes sense to me. Born25121642 (talk) 22:45, 26 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • B At the end of the first sentence, not weirdly in the middle (which looks unprofessional and like we're unduly second guessing the word). This is what I was arguing for in the above thread. I think it should resolve the longstanding confusion that readers seem to have about the topic. The first sentence *is* correct, so I would oppose actually changing the text of it. A man is an adult male human, and if you go to male, you'll see that male may refer to sex or gender. But a lot of users don't click through to male, so having the footnote will put that clarification close at hand. CaptainEek Edits Ho Cap'n!⚓ 22:51, 26 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    I have to ask, how many of the readers who don't click through the wikilink to male will actually click or hover on the footnote? Yes B is an improvement over the current version hence why I support it as my second preference, but the clarification that male has dual meaning would still be hidden behind a click or hover by putting it into a footnote. Sideswipe9th (talk) 23:04, 26 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    I think changing the wording would be redundant, and actually increase the amount of confused readers. I suspect that folks would then be clamoring for us to elaborate about the sex/gender distinction in the lead, and that would be out of place. I also think it would increase the amount of gender critical trolls who so love these talk pages. I think this strikes the right balance between no change, and rewording the first sentence. CaptainEek Edits Ho Cap'n!⚓ 23:15, 26 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    Wikinav has the stats for how many people go from this article to Male (1.27% of the people reading Male; also, 1.58% of the people reading this article started at Male).
    I don't think we have any information about footnotes in any individual article, but we could do a back of the envelope calculation from the Wikipedia-wide average. People click on one of those little blue numbers in approximately 0.3% of page views, so if this page is average (although long articles get fewer clicks on refs, so this one probably gets fewer than average), and if clicking on refs is evenly distributed across all 80 refs in the article (it's probably not, and refs at the start probably get more clicks than average), then we could estimate that 0.004% of people arriving at this page would click on the footnote. That's one click per 25,000 page views, or approximately one person every three weeks. WhatamIdoing (talk) 22:35, 27 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • B at the end of the sentence, per CaptainEek. I came here from the RfC notice, and I'll confess to having only quickly skimmed the long discussion above. But it seems to me that the note is a reasonable approach to a situation where one should not let the perfect become the enemy of the good. I see some encyclopedic value in adding the bit of clarification. I also can easily see rationales for then qualifying what is meant by "sex" and "gender", and that could potentially continue down the road for a long way. But it's only the lead sentence, and there's a reason why our articles don't try to be single-sentence length. Dear reader: read on, for a lot more details. And I agree that it is better to keep the note at the end of the sentence, not in the middle. --Tryptofish (talk) 23:19, 26 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • B, but "male", not male (just plain English). InedibleHulk (talk) 19:00, 27 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • B - With reservations I think if it is indeed the case that Male here ambiguously means Male gender or Male sex (assignment), then we should clarify this ambiguity. This is certainly buttressed on the presumption that until recently, all sources would have used the two interchangeably thus we cannot reliably discern whether they meant Male gender, Male sex, or some amorphous composition of Male sex and Male gender. My reservation with the above is that whether this gives undue weight to the ambiguity between sex and gender. If this ambiguity is in very few situations, adding this footnote could be at odds with WP:DUE, whereby we overemphasize the likelihood and prominence of this ambiguity beyond what is mentioned in reliable sources. I'm happy to be challenged on my vote, and indeed we should weigh the benefits with the drawbacks in a civil manner. Theheezy (talk) 08:55, 28 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Other/D or B I agree with the proposal made above by @Sideswipe9th. Sidenote: I skimmed the article and it seems to be very biology based. It projects a bit of a "there are men that don't have XY chromosomes, but let's not dwell on that" attitude. Random person no 362478479 (talk) 22:03, 28 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    @Random person no 362478479, @Thebiguglyalien last August and @CaptainEek this past month have made significant improvements to the balance, but I'd love to see you expand on what they've contributed. We need more very basic information, such as education levels and social expectations about employment. A lot of it really just needs someone to sit down with major sources (e.g., reports from the World Bank) and pull together the "obvious" facts. WhatamIdoing (talk) 01:31, 29 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • A - Keep it as it is: "A man is an adult male human." That's pretty self-explanatory, and that's always been the case. Fad Ariff (talk) 12:26, 29 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Option A - It is enormously WP:UNDUE weight on a technical distinction that is very peripheral to the topic, and does not even apply to the vast majority of men or to the sources on them. Likewise, the vast majority of definitions in sources align with option A, without anything like this. I don't see articles on men in other places immediately frame the whole topic as about sex vs. gender identity, especially since these are usually one and the same. The mention of trans men in the lead, but not in the first sentence, is sufficient - we do not need to cram everything into the first sentence. Crossroads -talk- 18:49, 31 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    It is not undue. It is about "what is a man?" This should be clear to you by now. Born25121642 (talk) 20:32, 31 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    It is a distinction that goes to the very heart of the topic. The term "man" can refer to biological sex or gender identity. Therefore we have to either split this into two articles, e.g. one "Man (biology)" and one "Man (gender)", or treat both equally in this article. How many people fall under either heading is absolutely irrelevant. As it is the article gives massively undue weight to the biological definition. Random person no 362478479 (talk) 21:26, 31 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Option A - I don't see an advantage to changing this. At the same time this seems to put undue emphasis on an aspect that in almost all contexts are one and the same. Only in a few limited cases would we have a case where gender and sex aren't one and the same. If we are talking about how a "man dresses" then the potential difference wouldn't matter as this is a "male" thing, not a sex thing. If we are talking about biological aspects then it's only a "sex thing". Springee (talk) 03:49, 1 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    Are sex and gender the same? Or are these different concepts? If the "sex" of a person refers to their gametic sex? "Sex" in proper current usage refers to gametic sex, rather than other sexual characteristics. Born25121642 (talk) 21:46, 7 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Option A. Maybe a separate "Man (biology)" and one "Man (gender)" article will be the solution. It would certainly put an end to attempts at changing the scientific definition of a human male in Wikipedia. Pyxis Solitary (yak yak). Ol' homo. 10:11, 6 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    I think splitting would indeed be the best course. Right now we have two different (though not unrelated) things for which the same word is used in one article. Two scientific definitions -- two articles. Kind of surprised that's not the case already. Random person no 362478479 (talk) 10:35, 6 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    I think that would be an unnecessary and unjustified WP:POVSPLIT, which would unduly divide editor effort. This article is already barebones as it is. CaptainEek Edits Ho Cap'n!⚓ 19:11, 6 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    I agree that there would be POV-fork perils with a split. I also think that it's desirable to do the same things for content about "Man" and content about "Woman", and not have them be inconsistent. --Tryptofish (talk) 19:18, 6 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    I also agree that a split would create major POV fork issues. Crossroads -talk- 00:33, 7 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    I agree, too. I would add: think how tedious and often impossible it would be to determine, for each and every RS statement about men, which definition that particular RS was using and hence which article it could go in, plus how extremely duplicative the articles would be since most statements about men in one sense are also true of men in the other sense since the same individuals make up the bulk of both groups. -sche (talk) 01:09, 7 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    I don't see how it would be a POVSPLIT. The other problems are very real. A split would definitely require a lot of coordination and advanced planning. A simpler possibility would be to simply fork out the biology section. That way there would be a clean cut uncontroversial (or at least far less controversial) article about biology and another article dealing with cultural, societal, legal, historical, etc. issues. Personally I would favour separating biology from the rest even if there were no questions regarding definitions. Random person no 362478479 (talk) 13:29, 7 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    Re splitting the biology content into a separate article: isn't that Male? (Certainly we might be able to move some biology content from this article to that one, but that's probably best discussed in a new section, and not in the middle of this RFC, ha.) -sche (talk) 00:58, 9 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    There's overlap. But that article is not just about humans and not just adults. Random person no 362478479 (talk) 01:13, 9 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment - Because the primary usage of "male" refers to gametic sex, and not social gender, having "man" introduced as "adult male human" is confusing. If the primary usage of "male" were social gender, this would not be an issue. But the primary usage of "male" refers to gametic sex, and the secondary usage is in reference to gender, which I believe is at the root of the confusion.
Born25121642 (talk) 21:51, 7 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Most of it isn't about transgender individuals, either. Crossroads -talk- 13:58, 17 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Option A. I don't believe the current introduction will confuse the reader. A footnote in the first sentence is cumbersome and distracting. (To be clear, it's fine to discuss these nuances elsewhere in the article.) PieLover3141592654 (talk) 20:06, 25 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
New suggestion: Option E - Add a footnote saying "The primary usage of "male" is in reference to gametic sex, and the secondary usage is in reference to social gender." This is because in most sources, the primary usage is in reference to gametic/biological sex. I believe someone who wanted to make a bold edit to this end would be justified in their actions. Born25121642 (talk) 09:09, 27 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Option A. I really don't think that there's a need for a footnote in the lead stating "male may refer to sex or gender" as for but a miniscule % of the population, there is no difference. The average reader will not be confused (as it suggests at the top of this rfc) and need clarification. Masterhatch (talk) 11:55, 27 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Option A thanks Lukewarmbeer (talk) 15:52, 28 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Option B. Footnotes are cheap, and there is adequate sourcing and content in the article to support the clarification in at least a footnote. --Aquillion (talk) 14:29, 18 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
New new suggestion: "'Option F'": "A man is an adult human of the male gender"
I'm putting this here because I suggested and it was reverted by Crossroads, but I don't think that the revert's justifications were clearly spelled out.
Crossroads justified the reversion with Undue weight; text of the sources; and previous discussion, none of which I think are sufficient.
1. re undue weight: my understanding of the Due and undue weight policy is that it has to do with balancing points of view. What is the alternative point of view that is not being given due weight with that phrasing? I don't think anyone would dispute that a man is of the male gender. I think some people might dispute whether or not gender equals sex all of the time, but I think the phrasing "male gender" here is maximally inclusive of all possible viewpoints. Those that do not acknowledge the sex/gender distinction and treat them as synonyms would be happ; those that do acknowledge the sex/gender distinction would also be happy. By avoiding the term "gender identity" or "biological sex" it has nothing in particular to do with trans identities.
2. As to text of the sources: conceded, you're right, that's the language in both particular dictionary entries. But there are many other sources that say something to the effect of "a man is a person of the male gender," or some close paraphrase. I don't know that they're substantially more authoritative—and expanding to "male gender" is not in conflict with them. As I argue in point 1, it is either an exact synonym (to those that do not acknowledge a distinction) or it is a rephrasing that is more precise (to those that do acknowledge a distinction between sex and gender)
3. Re previous discussion. I'm actually having trouble finding whether wording substantially similar to mine was considered before. I think that this version is novel and is elegant, by eschewing more confusing/specific terms like "gender identity" Recognitor (talk) 05:57, 1 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Sourcing for my contention that the plain term 'gender' alone is the most inclusive of possible views contained in options A B and C:
From Merriam Webster's definition of gender:
"2
a
SEX sense 1a (: either of the two major forms of individuals that occur in many species and that are distinguished respectively as female or male especially on the basis of their reproductive organs and structures)
b
the behavioral, cultural, or psychological traits typically associated with one sex
c
GENDER IDENTITY
"
Seems like it hits them all! Recognitor (talk) 06:55, 1 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Gallery?

Why was my edit reverted? I read MOS:NOETHNICGALLERIES and the associated RfC; it initially stemmed from the African American article, because "blackness" is something ultimately subjective, (cf. one-drop rule and Logic being considered "black") and creating these galleries would approach WP:OR territory.

However, to me, this here is different, because sex is biological and not subjective (unless you're going to argue that Plato might have been bigenderfluid, but I digress)

Why pick an image of a random Indian guy (or a random Malaysian woman) when you can put a collage of people and representations from ethnicities and cultures all around the world? Is Wikipedia India-centric or Malaysia-centric now? :)

Note that I don't argue for the removal of their pictures, only for the inclusion of the collage somewhere in order to give a broader view to a reader! Synotia (moan) 19:10, 22 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The relevant part of the MOS reads or similarly large human populations. Men are a large human population. Your suggestion that men are a biological category, and thus exempt from the MOS, doesn't add up. The entire point of NOETHNIC was to avoid those sorts of discussions. I have no idea what you mean about Plato, and if it is meant to be a joke, I admit I don't get it. At any rate, the discussion over what image to use in the lead has been exhaustive, and the current image should not be replaced without broad consensus. I'm not seeing a compelling reason to override the extant lead image. Nor am I seeing that we should even add the collage at all, given the MOS's stance on ethnic galleries. CaptainEek Edits Ho Cap'n!⚓ 22:51, 22 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Eh, I see. I just found it a cool picture, that's it... Synotia (moan) 07:32, 23 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
That said, if you're interested in adding photos, this article could probably handle approximately twice as many as it has right now. For example, many men serve in the military, and almost all of them engage in some sort of paid work, and we have no photos of either soldiers or workers in the article. Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Images#Pertinence and encyclopedic nature says to "Strive for variety", and that'd be good advice for this article. WhatamIdoing (talk) 01:42, 24 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Agreed, some high quality images would definitely enliven the place. CaptainEek Edits Ho Cap'n!⚓ 04:14, 24 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
still dont understand why i cant add the gallery in question Synotia (moan) 07:22, 27 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Because MOS:PEOPLEGALLERY says "Articles about ethnic groups or similarly large human populations should not be illustrated by a photomontage or gallery of images of group members". In other words PEOPLEGALLERY doesn't just cover ethnic groups. Nigej (talk) 07:21, 29 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

FWIW, if there's ever a discussion (on a more general page) about revising MOS:PEOPLEGALLERY, I'd be interested in that discussion. (I just don't see that the rationales for the guideline hold up; sure, a gallery can't be 100% representative, but a single image obviously can't either! And it's also not as if a single image prevents the sort of disputes that happen about galleries, e.g. people who didn't like that there was a Black trans woman in the gallery at Woman never shut up about it, sure, but it's not as if discussions about changing the images on Woman and Man have stopped now that they're single images: here we are having another discussion about the suitability of this image right now.) Perhaps the guideline should be reconsidered some day. But as things stand, the guideline is clear, and discussion here isn't going to change it. (And I think, as far as single images go, the current image is fine.) -sche (talk) 17:20, 28 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I agree with you, I also don't see it as some kind of guarantee of consensus. Synotia (moan) 08:41, 29 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Removal of a word

"Like most other male mammals, a man's genome usually inherits an X chromosome from the mother and a Y chromosome from the father."

Delete the word "usually". A girl has 2X chromosomes so she can only contribute an X, while a boy has an X and a Y and can give one of those. YOLO WOLF (talk) 00:24, 13 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

 Not done Not in line with what reliable sources say. CaptainEek Edits Ho Cap'n!⚓ 02:35, 13 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I'm not sure I agree about RS here. Pfizer seem to think otherwise
One of those pairs are the chromosomes that determine the biological sex of a child – girls have an XX pair and boys have an XY pair, with very rare exceptions in certain disorders. Females always pass an X chromosome onto their offspring. If the father passes on an X chromosome, the baby will be genetically female, and if the father passes on a Y chromosome, the baby will be genetically male.
Using "usually" may encompass those very rare exceptions but is undue.
We wouldn't feel the need to say 'cars usually have wheels' even though every single car may not so I think usually should go.
Expansion on this in the Lead would be too much but could go with a bracketed (with very rare exceptions in certain disorders) and an expansion in the article - if we feel that the rare exceptions need to go into the Lead at all (I don't).
This would be more pertinent in 'Woman' because there is evidence that "More Women Than Expected Are Genetically Men". Even though this is still only around 1 in 15,000. I wouldn't go for usually there either mind you.
What do you think Captain? Lukewarmbeer (talk) 10:42, 13 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I'm not sure Pfizer, the drugmaker, is an RS in this context. I agree that the usually wording is perhaps more applicable on the woman page, but it doesn't make it inapplicable here. See [1] For example, Klinefelter's syndrome, which affects one in 500 to 1000 men, which is quite a high incidence and one of the most common genetic conditions. CaptainEek Edits Ho Cap'n!⚓ 16:10, 13 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Good example and I'd say that level of prevalence means a mention of the exceptions in the Lead is warranted.
Our article XY sex-determination system says
"There are various exceptions, such as individuals with Klinefelter syndrome (who have XXY chromosomes), Swyer syndrome (women with XY chromosomes), and XX male syndrome (men with XX chromosomes), however these exceptions are rare".
Can we settle on a text something like:
Like most other male mammals, a man's genome inherits an X chromosome from the mother and a Y chromosome from the father (with rare exceptions in certain disorders, for example Klinefelter's syndrome).
Possibly with the addition of a link to XY sex-determination system ? Lukewarmbeer (talk) 17:05, 13 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Well, I imagine the other reason "usually" was chosen is because of trans and intersex men, so I'm not necessarily a fan of calling out things like Klinefelters in the lead when more than just that went into it. It's a lead, we don't need to explain all the intricacies, and thus "usually" is good enough and encapsulates what is necessary. CaptainEek Edits Ho Cap'n!⚓ 17:10, 13 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Ok. Well lets see if we get any consensus on that either way while this topic is active. Lukewarmbeer (talk) 17:31, 13 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
A similar discussion opened two months ago at Talk:Woman#"Typically" women inherit XX chromosomes and are capable of pregnancy. –RoxySaunders 🏳️‍⚧️ (💬 • 📝) 18:56, 13 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Misinformation about sex disparity

“In most societies, men have more legal and cultural rights than women, and misogyny is far more prevalent than misandry in society.” This is completely false, in fact women are typically treated better than men since they are protected, whereas men are forced to put up with unfavourable treatment. 202.173.162.42 (talk) 07:05, 8 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

New article on 'male gender'?

I think that, at the risk of proliferation, in addition to the wikipedia article on male sex now linked to in the lede, we should have an article on 'male gender', focusing cognitive/social/identity aspects of the identity.

Will get to looking for sources.

A proposed lede for male gender would be something along the lines of:

"Male gender is a subjectively felt social identity associated with attributes of the male sex" Recognitor (talk) 21:23, 31 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I think you're looking for Masculinity? EvergreenFir (talk) 21:47, 31 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I also considered this but I think they are conceptually distinct. Masculinity is one level more abstract than male gender — a woman could be described as masculine, for example—there's a whole section in the article masculinity on 'masculinity in women'—but still retain her female gender.
Some content in the masculinity article does overlap with what I was envisioning, especially in the nature vs. nurture section. Recognitor (talk) 03:53, 1 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
In fact the article femininity says this in the lede:
"It is conceptually distinct from both the female biological sex and from womanhood, as all humans can exhibit feminine and masculine traits, regardless of sex and gender."
To me creating pages for male gender (/masculine gender/manhood) and female gender (/feminine gender/womanhood) would complete the playing board, as it were. In this quote from the femininity article it's clear that we have an article for the concept 'female biological sex' and femininity but not for the gender. Recognitor (talk) 04:19, 1 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Or is that not how it's seen in the sociology literature? — it's not my area expertise, so don't want to stomp over something I don't know about. I'm having a harder time than I thought finding sources that describe male gender or female gender qua gender. Recognitor (talk) 04:53, 1 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
We've had this discussion on the Woman page, and we've so far resisted creating "Female (gender)". There is certainly a decent group that have suggested that outcome, but we don't yet have consensus for it. At any rate, I remain opposed to it for WP:POVFORK reasons, among others, not least of which there'd be a lack of sources. CaptainEek Edits Ho Cap'n!⚓ 05:36, 1 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I think that "female gender (concept)" and "male gender (concept)" would avoid POV fork by being sufficiently specific. The articles would be about the idea of male gender and the idea of female gender, rather than an alternate definition of female and male competing with sex. All that the existing "male" article says on the side of the conceptual category is the following:
"Usage[edit | edit source]
In humans, the word male can be used in the context of gender, such as for gender role or gender identity of a man or boy. For example, according to Merriam-Webster, "male" can refer to "having a gender identity that is the opposite of female". According to the Cambridge Dictionary, "male" can mean "belonging or relating to men"."
The page needn't be long — I think as a "concept defining the shared attributes of being a man or boy" it is pretty self explanatory. I think its self-explanatory nature is behind the source thing—many many sources address the concept of male gender and female gender, but don't spend a ton of time defining them because it is self explanatory.
It could link to relevant pages like man, boy, and male; explain its application to gender identity/gender role; include a brief mention of the English pronouns; and a brief mention of differing views of the concept—with biological sex as a sufficient condition or not. Is there a way I can sandbox this? Recognitor (talk) 16:32, 1 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
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