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Talk:Libyan civil war (2011)

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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by 102.69.43.149 (talk) at 21:19, 27 August 2023 (→‎Requested move 16 August 2023: Reply). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

In the newsNews items involving this article were featured on Wikipedia's Main Page in the "In the news" column on February 17, 2011, and May 1, 2011.
On this day...Facts from this article were featured on Wikipedia's Main Page in the "On this day..." column on February 17, 2018, and February 17, 2021.


Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment

This article is or was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): Witherwingsblog.

Above undated message substituted from Template:Dashboard.wikiedu.org assignment by PrimeBOT (talk) 21:17, 17 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Zimbabwe and Belarus?

Can someone please explain the rationale behind listing these countries as belligerents to a non-Russian-speaker? Thanks! Mikrobølgeovn (talk) 09:07, 2 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]

They were pro Gaddafi. Belarus basically just follows what Russia does, and Zimbabwe follows what China does Farbne (talk) 05:54, 18 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Do you have any sources to support this or is it just your personal opinion? - wolf 08:04, 21 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

https://www.csmonitor.com/World/Africa/2011/0830/Zimbabwe-expels-Libyan-ambassador-after-switch-of-allegiance-to-rebels

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-libya-zimbabwe/gaddafi-mugabe-want-federal-government-for-africa-idUSL143127320070614

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/africaandindianocean/libya/8432996/Libya-Belarus-mercenary-paid-1900-a-month-to-help-Gaddafi-forces.html Farbne (talk) 21:16, 18 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Why you don't include Zimbabwe? Their 5th brigade participated in conflict Пале (talk) 05:29, 12 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

See MOS:INFOBOXPURPOSE. FDW777 (talk) 05:46, 12 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Took long to remove it, but finally I have removed it. Infobox should not include highly dubious information. Aman Kumar Goel (Talk) 14:59, 13 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

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The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion:

Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. —Community Tech bot (talk) 04:52, 8 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Requested move 17 July 2023

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: moved. Rough consensus to move; editors agree that the current title is inappropriate, but disagree - or have no opinion - on what title would be appropriate.

As such, there is not a consensus as to where to move it, but the proposed move had the most support and so I am choosing to move it there per WP:NOGOODOPTIONS. Editors may open a new move request at any time to discuss alternative options. (closed by non-admin page mover) BilledMammal (talk) 13:02, 16 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

First Libyan Civil War → Libyan Civil War (2011) – there were other civil wars in that area before the 2011 one. Also, I added 2011 at the end, for indexing reasons.WikipedianRevolutionary (talk) 14:20, 17 July 2023 (UTC) — Relisting. BilledMammal (talk) 02:24, 9 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

There is no civil battles before the 2011 revolution 102.69.49.136 (talk) 00:12, 31 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
It was a civil war, not just a revolution. What about the Tripolitanian civil war? WikipedianRevolutionary (talk) 05:55, 31 July 2023 (UTC) Blocked sock. S.L. 17:43, 11 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
that was pre-Libya, when it was called Tripolitania - as such, is already naturally disambiguated Iskandar323 (talk) 07:40, 1 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Still few sources name this article as such. However, most sources reffer to it as the Libyan Civil War, but we could add 2011 in it to remove confusion. WikipedianRevolutionary (talk) 07:00, 2 August 2023 (UTC) Blocked sock. S.L. 17:43, 11 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
 Comment: So what about the Second Libyan Civil War? Parham wiki (talk) 20:52, 31 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
It should be changed to the Libyan Civil War (2014–2020)? WikipedianRevolutionary (talk) 05:57, 1 August 2023 (UTC) Blocked sock. S.L. 17:43, 11 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
There was an RM on that that unfortunately closed the "wrong" way (I'm pretty sure I voted against), so it would probably require a new RM to move back. The sourcing that the later conflict was commonly called the "Second" War was rather thin IMO. That said, even if the 2014 war is kept at its new title with "Second", there's no need for a forced "consistency" argument here anyway, given that wars are very frequently named in ways that are arbitrary and require matching the sources rather than imposing an order that may not really exist. SnowFire (talk) 18:13, 2 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Strong support. This article was moved on invalid grounds anyway as there were several earlier RMs, yet it was moved on a technical request despite being potentially controversial. There was no evidence offered this specific event was commonly or even rarely called the "First" Libyan Civil War, although unfortunately some citogenesis might have happened since the undiscussed move. So both the procedural default should be to restore the old name or a variant thereof, and I'd also support restoring the old name on the merits anyway since it is descriptive and clear, while "First" is basically made-up. SnowFire (talk) 18:10, 2 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose, no civil conflict in Libya has ever been referred to as the Libyan Civil War before. Plus, the "Tripolitanian civil war" is not notable enough to justify moving this article, and this 1920–1922 Jabal al-Gharbi civil war is sourced by one book. The only civil wars in Libya that are notable in the modern era are the 2011 one and the 2014-20 one. The fact that it's technically not the first civil war in Libya is not valid grounds for a move on its own. - presidentofyes, the super aussa man 22:16, 3 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
To be clear, the main argument isn't a legalistic one that this wasn't technically the first civil war, but rather the practical one that no sources other than Wikipedia mirrors post-2021-move seem to call this conflict "First Libyan Civil War", regardless of "which" civil war it was. SnowFire (talk) 01:09, 7 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The issue is that the title makes it sound like the common name for this event is the "First Libyan Civil War", which is not true. If there are two civil wars at different times, and there are no established common names, the right approach is to use parenthetical disambiguation per WP:QUALIFIER. Orange Suede Sofa (talk) 01:41, 7 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Also, I’ve searched on Google Scholar “First Libyan Civil War” and no source had “first” in its name. WikipedianRevolutionary (talk) 19:37, 6 August 2023 (UTC) Blocked sock. S.L. 17:43, 11 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
@BilledMammal: since this is a no good options close, please can I request the you amend your close slightly so that we use the sentence case variant Libyan civil war (2011). From an ngram [1] we can see that sentence case enjoys a slight lead, and therefore title case is nowhere near the "consistently capitalized in a substantial majority of independent, reliable sources" bar required to treat it as a proper name, per MOS:CAPS. There seems no policy reason why it should be capitalised as it is now. Thanks  — Amakuru (talk) 22:21, 16 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
That's reasonable; I've requested it at WP:RMTR, as the page is move protected. BilledMammal (talk) 06:55, 17 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Requested move 16 August 2023

Libyan civil war (2011) → 2011 Libyan uprising – This page should move to 2011 Libyan uprising, as a both naturally disambiguated (per WP:NCDAB) and descriptive title (per WP:NCE) that also finds prevalence in scholarship. While "civil war" is one descriptor for this event, the majoritarian language for this event is as a "revolution" or "uprising". As Ngrams shows, there are more results for "revolution" and "uprising" overall than for "civil war". Of these two near synonyms, the terminology of "uprising" specifically is the most effective for disambiguating the event from the earlier revolution in the 1960s, since the terminology of "Libyan uprising" is fairly unique to this event as a specific move against a perceived dictator/Arab Spring uprising. "2011 Libyan uprising" also appears to find slightly more prevalence in scholarship, at 314 hits in google scholar to 262 hits for "2011 Libyan revolution". If all of the different names for the event are plugged in together, you will also see that uprising or revolution generally emerges on top. But ultimately it is a choice, as this source notes, different sources and authors use all of the terms “revolution,” “civil war ‚” and “uprisings” to capture different dimensions of the events unfolding in Libya from February to October 2011. But per the points put forward above, I would suggest that 2011 Libyan uprising is the best choice. Iskandar323 (talk) 19:26, 16 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Indeed, the “2011 Libyan uprising” was the most known title in 2011, but now the “Libyan civil war (2011)” is the most known title. Even the “2011 Libyan Revolution” seemed better than uprising, since Gaddafi was overthrown, which normally happens in revolutions. 2A01:CB1D:636:9B00:290B:FD8A:D638:8FEB (talk) 14:27, 17 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
A "civil war" title, aside from seemingly not being the most prevalent, risks considerable confusion with the more enduring and significant civil war beginning in 2014, just three years later. Iskandar323 (talk) 14:41, 17 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
In libya its called as the 2011 Libyan revolution. Therefore you have no right to name it other than what the libyans themselves call it. its either going to be called "February 17 Events" or "2011 Libyan Revolution" 102.69.43.149 (talk) 21:19, 27 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
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