Talk:Sally Hemings

Caricature

I can see many people have worked very hard on this page, from reviewing the archive of previous discussions and edits. However I could not find any discussion of how it came to be that a caricature of Sally Hemings is used as her primary photo. While this is taken out of context, the original caricature depicts Hemings as a chicken, or hen. I find this offensive as there is a long-standing tradition of depicting African Americans as animals which continues to the present day in many more insidious forms. Not only is this offensive, it is also historically inaccurate. The man who created this caricature never saw Sally Hemings with his own eyes. Furthermore, the few contemporary descriptions of Hemings describe her as 'nearly white' or something to that effect. Obviously this image presents an imagined African American enslaved woman. I know the article is much enhanced by an image, but I think a different one should be used. I believe there are other artistic depictions of her that are more respectful (if also doubtful in their historical accuracy). — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2600:4040:6004:C500:3129:56F:5A43:5E9E (talk) 13:24, 2 April 2022 (UTC)

Agreed. Although in the original caricature Jefferson is also shown as a chicken, so it's not clear that this particular portrayal was meant as a racialized insult. Nevertheless, given the history, and the exploited nature of the subject's life, and the fact that it's unlikely to even be an accurate image of her, it doesn't seem like a good choice as the primary image. Perhaps a more respectful artist's imagining or even some place or object associated with Hemings can be used?Curious georgianna (talk) Curious georgianna (talk) 06:31, 19 June 2022 (UTC)

I'd guess she never had her portrait painted, and they didn't have cameras. So unlikely to find an appropriate image. YoPienso (talk) 07:14, 22 July 2022 (UTC)

No, they didn't have cameras and everyone realizes she wouldn't have had her portrait painted. What I said was "Perhaps a more respectful artist's imagining or even some place or object associated with Hemings can be used?" For instance, a photo of an actress playing her in a film, perhaps. Given the amount of current cultural interest in her, there may be an IMAGINED rendering of her by some modern artist. Even though they would obviously look nothing like her, since nobody has any idea how she looked. But this caricature also almost certainly looks nothing like her, since, rumors about Jefferson's life aside, the caricaturist is extremely unlike to have known or cared if he was rendering her with any accuracy. This makes the current image just as "inappropriate" to use your term. Finally, I also suggested maybe using an image of a place associated with her. For example, the room where she lived, according to the museum at Monticello. I made a respectful and tentative suggestion for something to think about. Snarky responses are unhelpful.Curious georgianna (talk) Curious georgianna (talk) 23:36, 29 August 2022 (UTC)

I think the caricature image should be removed. I would do it myself, except that it is long-standing in the article so consensus will be needed. It isn't true that "nobody has any idea how she looked". She was often described as light-skinned, being three-quarters white, and even as bearing "a strong resemblance to Martha Jefferson". But this image shows her as dark-skinned and is therefore very misleading. I vote to remove it, and leave no image if a better one can't be found. I see that several other people in this discussion seem to agree with removing it. @Curious georgianna and Yopienso: Would you agree with removing it and leaving no image at all, if a better one can't be found? -- MelanieN (talk) 03:29, 30 August 2022 (UTC)

P.S. There is nothing of any use at Wikimedia Commons. But she has been portrayed in numerous productions, see Cultural depictions of Sally Hemings. One major portrayal was a 2000 TV miniseries titled Sally Hemings: An American Scandal. Maybe we could use a picture of the actress who portrayed her, Carmen Ejogo? She could well represent Hemings, since she herself is of mixed race (Scottish mother, Nigerian father), but in the picture on her page she appears mostly white, as Hemings herself is said to have appeared. What would you think about using the photo from her page, with a caption like "Actress Carmen Ejogo portrayed Hemings in the TV miniseries Sally Hemings: An American Scandal ? Alternatively, there are several good pictures of Thandiwe Newton, who was also of mixed race and portrayed Hemings in Jefferson in Paris. The one captioned "Newton in 2007" would be the best, since she appears fairly young and nothing about the picture places her in modern times.-- MelanieN (talk) 03:49, 30 August 2022 (UTC)

Yes, I agree that the caricature should be removed. That was actually the whole point of all my comments on this topic. Sorry if I was unclear in that. I made some suggestions on the type of image we might consider replacing it with (though I don't have a particular image recommendation). I looked at wiki commons and creative commons hoping to find something useful but couldn't come up with anything. I also agree that it would be better to have no image than the caricature. But, like you, I also didn't want to take it upon myself to edit this longstanding item without some discussion. Should we just remove it and add a note in the edit summary directed to this discussion? What's the protocol? Thanks. ~ Curious georgianna (talk) 04:13, 30 August 2022 (UTC)

In my earlier comment, I also recommended considering the image of an actress portraying her, but when I looked for images, I couldn't find one that would be clearly permitted, in terms of copyright issues. All the ones you suggested sound good. Are they in the public domain or otherwise permitted for use?~ Curious georgianna (talk) 04:27, 30 August 2022 (UTC)

This one (below and to the right) is listed as CC by 2.0 so I believe it should be OK to use:

Actress Thandiwe Newton, who portrayed Sally Hemings in the 1995 film Jefferson in Paris.

What do you think? -- MelanieN (talk) 20:58, 30 August 2022 (UTC)

I think the article is better served with no image of Sally Hemings. The photo of the actress who portrayed her should not be at the top of the article. It would be appropriate to use it in a mention of Jefferson in Paris, but not as a substitute for an actual image of Hemings. It's a shame the present one from the caricature probably shouldn't be used—I think it actually portrays her as rather beautiful, and it's contemporaneous, having been made when she was still alive. Damn the luck. Carlstak (talk) 02:34, 31 August 2022 (UTC)

Another possibility, the one on the left: this one is listed as Fair Use. This one actually is a portrayal of Hemings, while the other one is just a picture of the actress who portrayed her, so maybe it would be more appropriate.

File:Jefferson in paris ver2.jpg

The one on the left got deleted by a bot because "non-free files can only be used in articles". This is a talk page so apparently we can't use it here. However we could use it in the Hemings article. It's a copy of the movie poster for Jefferson in Paris and shows her as a child or young teenager listening while Jefferson and his paramour talk. You can see it in the infobox of the Jefferson in Paris article. If it's not appropriate in the infobox here, we could (as Carlstak suggested) use it to illustrate the Paris part of this article. -- MelanieN (talk) 02:51, 31 August 2022 (UTC)

Curious georgianna: Thoughts? -- MelanieN (talk) 21:14, 30 August 2022 (UTC)

I do think the caricature should be removed from the infobox. I wouldn't object to the entire (not cropped) caricature farther down, as it shows how some people perceived TJ's relationship with her.

I do not think it's a good idea to put an actress's face or other cultural image there in the infobox. Such an image could be OK later in the article with an appropriate explanatory caption. YoPienso (talk) 05:32, 31 August 2022 (UTC)

Although I do appreciate the desire to remove the caricature, I agree with @Carlstak and @Yopienso- I am reluctant with using an actress to represent Sally Hemmings in the info box. Additionally to the points raised, the studios seemed to have picked actresses with more significant African ancestry to accentuate the character they wanted to portray. This is also likely the case with the depiction in the caricature. I am not saying that everyone with a 3/4 European, 1/4 African ancestry looks the same. However, perhaps in general (seeing as how we don't know what she looked like other than being "fair skinned"), it would be wise to not include any picture near the beginning of the article. I particularly agree with @Yopienso, that both an unedited caricature and the actresses' faces should be in the article, just further down with appropriate comments on their relevance. SuperTah (talk) 06:00, 31 August 2022 (UTC)

I can understand the reluctance to use another person's image in the info box. I also like the idea of using the caricature in full, including the Jefferson caricature further down in the discussion of the social reputation/rumors surrounding their relationship, rather than as a stand in for the actual image of the subject.

@MelanieN @SuperTah @Carlstak and @Yopienso, Any thoughts as to using an image of a place such as her quarters at Monticello or if there is any structure or memorial dedicated to her (I don't know if there are)? Otherwise, I think it would be best to leave it without an info box image. ~ Curious georgianna (talk) 23:20, 1 September 2022 (UTC)

I'm not sure about placing a picture of her quarters at Monticello in the infobox, but a memorial is certainly possible. A quick glance through Wikimedia Commons didn't return much though, unless someone uploads a picture themselves, or does a more thorough search. I think it could be relevant to place a picture of Monticello or other relevant locations of Sally's life, as the article could do with a few more pictures. SuperTah (talk) 23:44, 1 September 2022 (UTC)

Thanks for your input, everybody. I'm glad to see there is currently no image in the infobox; that was clearly the consensus here. I have put the movie poster for Jefferson in Paris in the Paris section, and rearranged a few things so that the section reads easily. You all are welcome to edit or tweak what I did. I am now going to see if I can find a place to put the "chicken" poster; ideally it should go where we have information about rumors or public opinion about Jefferson and Sally, if I can find such a place in the article. Anyone able to help on that? -- MelanieN (talk) 20:00, 3 September 2022 (UTC)

OK, I found the info in the "controversy" section, expanded it a little, and added the caricature there. That makes the placement of the Gordon-Reid video link a little awkward. Anybody got any ideas? Maybe it could be moved to the "external links" section at the end? -- MelanieN (talk) 20:59, 3 September 2022 (UTC)

Good work! I don't think it looks awkward, but the external links section also wouldn't be a bad place to put the video. My only gripe is that the external links section is almost inaccessible regarding its placement in the article. SuperTah (talk) 01:22, 5 September 2022 (UTC)

Yes, good work all! I didn't get the ping because it wasn't formatted correctly.

About external links, maybe you're accessing the article on your phone? It displays perfectly on my desktop. YoPienso (talk) 19:17, 5 September 2022 (UTC)

@Yopienso Ah, I wasn't super clear in my original message... it definitely works. However, as it's under the references, I'm not sure how accessible it is. I'm not sure how many people scroll to past the references on a wiki page. I myself didn't realise that it was there until it was referenced here. I would prefer it to be under the main article itself, but this may be the preferred layout of History-related GA articles. SuperTah (talk) 04:12, 6 September 2022 (UTC)

Undetected Vandalism made 2 years ago

In August 2020, several vandalous changes by an anonymous IP editor who did TWO consecutive edits were mostly undone. However, one of those changes was to change the name of a Washington Post article actually titled "For decades they hid Jefferson's relationship with her" to "For decades they hid Jefferson's rape". This change was NOT undone in the broad reverting of this editor's changes. I have just now fixed it. Needless, to say altering the title of outside sources is utterly unacceptable. WickerGuy (talk) 21:52, 13 September 2022 (UTC)

Unsourced intro claims

The claims I removed from the intro are not sourced on this article. The name "Susannah" for Hemings's grandmother is unsourced and does not appear anywhere else in the article, with the only citation for her name being in the below quoted sentence, where it is given speculatively as "Parthena" or "Parthenia":

Annette Gordon-Reed speculates that Betty's mother's name was Parthena (or Parthenia), based on the wills of Francis Eppes IV and John Wayles.

There are citations for letters Adams wrote to Jefferson but in those letters she does not describe "a strong resemblance to Martha Jefferson" at any point, only this:

The Girl who is with her is quite a child, and captain Ramsey is of opinion will be of so little service that he had better carry her back with him, but of this you will be a judge. she seems fond of the child and appears good Naturd. [1]

If you have sources for these claims, add them to the article. Please do not revert this change unless you are also citing sources to support these additions.

For reference, here is the edit where these additions were first made back in March, un-cited: [2] Vague | Rant 15:32, 11 January 2023 (UTC)

Adding some further brief descriptions of Hemings from Adams's letters, just for completeness' sake: in [3], also to Jefferson, she writes:

She has a Girl about 15 or 16 with her, the Sister of the Servant you have with you.

And in [4], to her sister Mary Smith Cranch, she writes:

I have had with me for a fortnight a little daughter of mr Jeffersons, who arrived here with a young Negro Girl her Servant from Virginia.

Adams spends very little time describing Hemings's appearance.

While I don't think it's relevant to whether or not the claims are cited in the article, which is the issue here, I will be clear that I am in no way disputing Hemings's parentage. She is John Wayles's daughter and Martha Jefferson's half-sister. She may well have resembled Martha, but if the article is going to state that Abigail Adams wrote as much in her letters, that will require a citation. Vague | Rant 15:50, 11 January 2023 (UTC)

Parthena (Παρθένα) is a Greek name which literally means "Maiden" of "Virgin". Somewhat unusual for the name of an American person. Dimadick (talk) 16:11, 11 January 2023 (UTC)

In your edit summary, you didn't merely claim the assertions about Abigail Adams were un-sourced. You stated they were not true!!! However, you are correct that they are unsourced in this article. I did your reversion both early in the morning, and in a hurry. I will get appropriate sources.WickerGuy (talk) 17:29, 11 January 2023 (UTC)

There Has Never Been Proof That Thomas Jefferson Fathered Sally Heming's Children

Of Hemings' several children, only the youngest, Eston, has descendants with DNA from someone in the Jefferson line. At the time Eston was conceived, Thomas Jefferson was 65 years old. He may still have been capable of fathering a child. However, his hard-drinking younger brother Randolph, and Randolph's five sons, who were in their teens and twenties, frequently visited and stayed at Monticello. So did other male Jeffersons. Frankly, it's more likely that one of these younger men fathered Eston than Thomas, who actually wrote pamphlets against relations between the races. As for oral tradition? Descendants of Madison Hemings have said that their own oral tradition was that somebody they called "the uncle," not Thomas, fathered Hemings' children. They have separated themselves from the Sally/Thomas claims. Others excitedly insist that a "secret room" has been discovered in which Sally and Thomas met. However, when you read about this discovery, it turns out nobody knows what the room was for. It could have been a place to bathe, a primitive bathroom, a place to store canning or linen. An unsupported favorite narrative is not fact. The only real proof would be scientific, consisting of DNA in a Hemings descendant which is specifically from Thomas. This has never been found. Following is a link to some DNA analyses. https://pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/jefferson/true/primer.html Younggoldchip (talk) 20:44, 23 August 2023 (UTC)

Hello Younggoldchip! I urge you to update the article with any reliable sources you feel are not currently presented fairly.

Also, if I may gently nudge you, it's time to move on from Jefferson, we have other presidents to research. Would love some help examining Andrew Johnson and slavery#Paternity of Dolly Johnson's children, William Henry Harrison and Dilsia (slave), and John Tyler and the unidentified enslaved woman who were allegedly the parents of John Dunjee? We also really need a genuine article on Zachary Taylor and slavery, not just a redirect. We could also use an article assessing the current historiography on U.S. national leaders in mixed-race relationships prior to Emancipation, beginning with Jefferson, naturally, heavily featuring Richard Mentor Johnson and Julia Chinn, of course, and likely concluding with Thaddeus Stevens and Lydia Hamilton Smith. Primary sources on private lives of politicians are always coveted and thus hard to come by, but it would be interesting to see the way these relationships have been treated by secondary sources (different journalists and historians) over time. Thanks so much for volunteering to help with Wikipedia. We have a lot to do and we need all the help we can get! jengod (talk) 22:06, 23 August 2023 (UTC)

Dear Jengold, I would love to move on from Thomas and Sally, as you gently suggest. However, this is hard for me as certain words and concepts are important to me, such as Reality,Facts, Proof, and Encyclopedia. Early in the article the writer states, "At some time during (their) 26 months months in Paris, the widower Jefferson began intimate relations with her..." If this were a bodice-ripper novel, this claim would be fine. But in an encyclopedia? Where no proof at all exists? And the most dubious oral tradition is presented as if it were Scripture? Jengold, I think the person you should be gently nudging to walk away would be whatever fantasist wrote the article. Where do they live, Brigadoon? It's not impossible that an old Founding Father who wore his dead wife's hair in a locket over his heart until he died would also exploit an enslaved woman. But there's no reliable evidence to prove that he did. I know this is a hard concept for obsessed people to accept. Still, here it is: reality is not whatever you prefer to believe.

As for the many other allegations of master/slave relations among the famous that you mention, I'm sure some happened, some didn't, and Wikipedians should have fun digging in.

2600:1702:E30:D970:9091:26D5:B8E3:8161 (talk) 18:07, 3 September 2023 (UTC)

Please submit your complaint letters to Jefferson biographers and historians for review and assessment of your arguments. Have a blessed day. jengod (talk) jengod (talk) 18:59, 3 September 2023 (UTC)

Brutal.;-) Carlstak (talk) 20:26, 3 September 2023 (UTC)

Actually, Jengod, it's not that radical to suggest that an encyclopedia article shouldn't present speculation as fact. Or to point out that a claim isn't necessarily true just because it's a favorite narrative. It would be nice if advances in DNA testing clear this matter up before we're dead. And, have a blessed day yourself.

Younggoldchip (talk) 12:10, 4 September 2023 (UTC)

2600:1702:E30:D970:E08C:5690:8A1:8940 (talk) 12:03, 4 September 2023 (UTC)