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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by Mtpaley (talk | contribs) at 05:59, 26 October 2023 (→‎Arms image: Reply). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

Good articleEngland has been listed as one of the Geography and places good articles under the good article criteria. If you can improve it further, please do so. If it no longer meets these criteria, you can reassess it.
Article milestones
DateProcessResult
April 25, 2006Featured article candidateNot promoted
February 13, 2008Featured article candidateNot promoted
March 22, 2009Good article nomineeListed
June 14, 2009Good article reassessmentDelisted
August 4, 2009Peer reviewReviewed
October 17, 2009Good article nomineeListed
Current status: Good article

Statistics for England without Wales?

Ethnic groups should maybe be deleted from infobox as cite seems to include Wales Chidgk1 (talk) 14:56, 20 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Fixed Dgp4004 (talk) 19:08, 3 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Infobox

Should the annexation of Wales be added to 'Establishment' in the Infobox? DHW1947 (talk) 01:02, 19 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Semi-protected edit request on 20 August 2023

I think a mention of the UEFA Women's Championship should be added into the sport section, regarding England winning the 2022 world cup. Sportingfan2 (talk) 12:07, 20 August 2023 (UTC)(Nota bene Blocked sockpuppet of Lam312321321, see investigation)[reply]

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. JTP (talk • contribs) 17:15, 20 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Religion in England

Christianity should be re added as (official) state religion as with other countries. The Church of England is Christian and is official therefore it must be reflected with an “(official)”. Cpuddifoot (talk) 13:16, 24 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I disagree, because Christianity includes many variations, such as Roman Catholicism, Methodism, Baptist and many other types of worship, none of which are the state religion. The Church of England may be the state religion, but the list just includes Christianity as a whole. Tony Holkham (Talk) 14:44, 24 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The Church of England is the state church, however the Church of England is not a religion. Christianity is the religion and officially is England’s state religion. Even if this means showing “church of England (official)” or “protestantism (official)” under the Christianity section it should be represented as England is one of the few non Islamic countries to have a state religion. Cpuddifoot (talk) 17:28, 24 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I think it's certainly something which should be covered in the article. But to put 'official' by Christianity in the Infobox would be misleading rather than informing. It also doesn't really relate to the demography field as it's about the structure of the Church and government rather than census statistics. The census in England doesn't record denomination like they do in Scotland and Northern Ireland. Dgp4004 (talk) 17:39, 24 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I agree it wouldn’t be fully informative to put (official) next to Christianity but as mentioned I think it should be shown that Church of England is the state religion under “Christianity” because it is a section about religion in England. 212.237.220.242 (talk) 17:59, 24 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
If I may add, on the Denmark Wikipedia page it shows Christianity and below it shows “Church of Denmark (official)”. I believe to be consistent the same thing should apply to England with “church of England (official)” being shown. Cpuddifoot (talk) 17:33, 24 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
To answer a couple of the points made above, the diversity of Christianity is covered in the article, under the section Religion. The infobox can't be expected to break Christianity down, nor any of the other religions which are necessarily summarised there. Tony Holkham (Talk) 21:16, 24 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Arms image

A.D.Hope, I think it may be misleading in this England article to use in the infobox the UK arms with the caption that wikilinks to the England arms, unless I am missing something. I didn't want to revert your edit without mentioning it here first. Cheers, Tony. Tony Holkham (Talk) 10:10, 2 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you for noticing that, I've updated the caption to link to Coat of arms of the United Kingdom. A.D.Hope (talk) 10:15, 2 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Technically speaking, isn't the new arms image actually the Coat of Arms of the entire United Kingdom and not just England? As technically, there is no separate arms used by the monarch in England as is the case in Scotland? Goodreg3 (talk) 21:33, 2 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
It is, yes. England doesn't have a distinct version of the royal arms, and the escutcheon depicting only England isn't commonly used officially. A.D.Hope (talk) 21:54, 2 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
So, with that then, shouldn't the arms image be removed entirely from the infobox if England doesn't have a stand alone or separate coat of arms for usage like Scotland does? As currently, the inclusion of the entire UK Coat of Arms means nothing for the England article and is misleading as it is not a coat of arms specifically or solely used by England. The arms on the Scotland page article is at least used distinctly and solely by Scotland (whether it be the monarch in Scotland, or the Scottish legal system and courts). Goodreg3 (talk) 22:00, 2 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I don't think so, because the arms are the version used in England even if they aren't used exclusively to represent England. They're used by the monarch in England and in English courts, just like the Scottish version. A.D.Hope (talk) 01:32, 3 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
previous talks on the matter that lead us to no arms. Moxy- 01:59, 3 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Could you point me to the specific discussion which led to a consensus for no arms, the ones I've looked at so far are inconclusive. The article infobox also seems to have contained a coat of arms since around February 2019, albeit removed a few times, so any consensus against one can't be very firm. A recent, wide-ranging consensus may be required to settle the issue A.D.Hope (talk) 02:14, 3 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Just need a source that this is used by England. NO editor guess work pls. Moxy- 02:19, 3 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The royal arms are used by the monarch in England, by the government in England, and by the English courts. A.D.Hope (talk) 02:33, 3 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
that looks ok to me. Moxy- 12:39, 3 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Yeah, I suppose the tricky bit is what 'by England' means. The UK state uses the royal arms in England for all the purposes linked above, but the arms aren't used by the English government because there isn't one. A.D.Hope (talk) 14:07, 3 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Surely if the arms of Scotland are actually the arms of the UK in right of Scotland, then the arms of England must be the arms of the UK in right of England?
Even the Kingdom of England didn't use the three lions alone. Although the three lions are a 'symbol' of England, they certainly aren't its coat of arms and haven't been for many hundreds of years. Dgp4004 (talk) 14:30, 3 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
England doesn't appear to have it's own distinct coat of arms, rather, it seems to use the official coat of arms of the entire United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland which does not particularly means it can be used as the coat of arms of England as it could be seen as misleading. In the context of Scotland, Scotland obviously has it's own separate version of the official coat of arms which is used by the Scotland Office (the UK Government in Scotland) as well as the Scottish courts and legal system. It is also different from England considering Scotland has it's own government whereas England does not, and, I would imagine, the Scottish Government would be bound to use the official version of the coat of arms as used in Scotland by the monarch on an official capacity. From research and what I can see, England does not have it's own official or individual coat of arms or version of the official UK coat of arms that would be worthy of inclusion in the infobox in this article. Goodreg3 (talk) 20:40, 3 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
https://www.thebritishmonarchy.co.uk/royal-coat-of-arms seems to a be a fairly definitive site for this. It shows the coat of arms for England, Scotland and after union England+Scotland then after further union England+Scotland+Ireland (what happened to Wales?).
It seems to imply that the coat of arms for Scotland at the time of union with England is still active and so by this logic the coat of arms of Elizabethan England should still be the coat of arms for England. But without another reference this would be unsubstantiated and not good enough for the article.
The three lions was the coat of arms of Richard the first which was "Used as the Royal Arms of England (1198 - 1340)" and was merged with some French motifs in 1340 as at this time the distinction between England and France was to put it mildly a bit complicated. The final coat of arms of England was in quarters with 2 x French fleur-de-lis and 2 x 3 lions. After the unifications it got very complicated with English, Scottish,Irish and French elements.
So I don't think England has had a distinct coat of arms since it unified with Scotland,Ireland and possibly France and ceased to have a independent identity. But this is just my interpretation and is totally in the dodgy realm of interpreting a single source. Mtpaley (talk) 22:09, 25 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Can you point out or quote the seeming implication that you mention? Mutt Lunker (talk) 22:22, 25 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The last "Kingdom of England" shown in this article is Elisabeth I "1558–1603" and after that England and Scotland unify so there is no longer such a thing as Kingdom of England as the Kingdom is now "Scotland and England" with a different coat of arms.
Is this what you were asking? Mtpaley (talk) 02:43, 26 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Maybe we could add the Elizabethan England coat of arms and call it a historical coat of arms in the text box?
I hope one day England has an adopted new coat of arms/ like Wales did, back in 2008. It's a shame the country's coat of arms is a bit of a puzzle. Indeed, it has so many coat of arms used throughout its history. But by the time of the merger of England and Scotland into a united kingdom, England lost its identity in some ways.
I personally do hope we can add some form of coat of arms or royal badge, to make England more in line with the other UK pages. Flower23d (talk) 23:47, 25 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I think a proper historian needs to provide a opinion on this. Mtpaley (talk) 05:59, 26 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Recent infobox changes

Could someone who has an economic background check the recent infobox changes, please, mostly regarding Gini. The source provided isn't the best. Englanduser2c (talk) 18:02, 3 September 2023 (UTC)(Nota bene Blocked sockpuppet of Lam312321321, see investigation)[reply]

I think it should be removed or updated ASAP. It's outdated, why not add the 2020-2023 figures if there are any? The UK, Scotland, and Wales pages have updated figures plus the correct symbol. It should be a green arrow downwards like the UK artcle, if the Gini figure is right. Englanduser2c (talk) 18:16, 3 September 2023 (UTC)(Nota bene Blocked sockpuppet of Lam312321321, see investigation)[reply]
@Dgp4004 Englanduser2c (talk) 18:23, 3 September 2023 (UTC)(Nota bene Blocked sockpuppet of Lam312321321, see investigation)[reply]
On the arrow, it reflects whether the figure went up or down since the previous figure. In the case of England, Gini hasn't moved since the last measurement hence there isn't an arrow. If you look at the entry in the Infobox it is 'stable' which is correct.
On the source, I too would have liked more up to date figures but there aren't any. Only the Scottish Government has done an analysis by UK nation and they stop in 2019. Thereafter, they have only done an analysis on Scotland which is why the Scotland page has a more recent figure. All other UK nations use the same source, including Wales and NI.
I looked at the figures the source has used. They come from the 'households below average income (HBAI) statistics' from the UK Department for Work and Pensions. Dgp4004 (talk) 18:39, 3 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The report is also quoted in British Social Attitudes Survey: The 38th Report by the National Centre for Social Research.
If you can find a post-2019 source for the UK nations I'd welcome it. I've looked and looked. Dgp4004 (talk) 18:44, 3 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

First line should be changed as it's misleading and causing issues in google results.

The first 4 words of the article is "England is a country", which should be changed to "England is a state" U.K. is a soverign country, England is just a part of it. If a student searches for "Is England a country" the first result on Google shows the first line of this article and students will take that as the answer without reading more. The terminology is misleading and incorrect. 2600:8800:2221:F500:BCB9:7AB9:CD6C:C483 (talk) 10:40, 16 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

England is a country. Tim O'Doherty (talk) 10:42, 16 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The terminology is indeed correct; that is simply the UK-English use of the term. The words country and states can be a bit confusing as they are semi-synonymous in many cases. The United Kingdom is a sovereign state - an entity that can engage in foreign policies (The UK is sometimes referred to as a country). The United States of America is also a sovereign state (often referred to as a country). The United States consists of 50 states. The United Kingdom of 4 countries (England, Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland) - none of these 4 countries are ever, nor should they be called state. Students who do not know this, don't check facts and interpret the first line as England being a sovereign state by the use of the word country, deserve a fail mark for poor scholarship. Arnoutf (talk) 11:53, 16 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Coat of Arms

I think the Coat of Arms should be added back. The other UK nations have a coat of arms next to their national flags on their respected pages. Looking up, there wasn't actually much discussion about. There needs to be a broad consensus about changes like this, not just two people agreeing. Flower23d (talk) 15:37, 25 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Scotland and Wales have heraldic symbols in their infoboxes, Northern Ireland and England don't. Scotland uses its version of the royal coat of arms, and Wales uses the heraldic badge which was created in 2008 and is used by the Senedd.
England doesn't have a distinct version of the royal arms which is used by its institutions, or a devolved government with its own arms, so we'd need to find some other justification for including any. A.D.Hope (talk) 19:25, 25 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you for your points. However, we do need to hear from a range of editors about such change. I think there needs to be a full consensus made with a vote; so everyone can have their say. I don't think removing the coat of arms without a vote is wise. Flower23d (talk) 20:05, 25 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
A consensus would be good, to make any change more likely to stick. It's worth noting that, unless I've been very unlucky when looking through the article history, the infobox has only consistently contained the coat of arms since January 2021; before that, going back to at least 2015-ish, only the flag was used. A.D.Hope (talk) 20:20, 25 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
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