Talk:Mohamed Abdelaziz (Sahrawi politician)

Untitled

where was him born?

Born

I'm really sure he was born in Marrakesh

===>I'm lost It seems that first you ask where he was born, and then you say that you know... Justin (koavf) 01:34, September 13, 2005 (UTC)

this guy is moroccan he is not sahrawi

The place of birth of Mohammed Abdelaziz is Marrakech and not Smara, koavf. You got to prove it. His father still living in morocco (in the city of Tadla) says his son was born in Marrakech. The same applies for the president of Algeria, abdelaziz Bouteflika who was born in Oujda, Morocco, but you can find it mentionned nowhere. In the homepage of the algerian presidency, all former Algerian presidents have a birth place except Bouteflika. Really sad that people have problems with telling their birthplaces. --SteveLo 12:43, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

===>You edit Is atrocious. Prove he was born in Marrakech. I personally would like to know. "Auto-proclaimed" isn't a word. Adding the line about Rguibat favoritism is unsourced POV. Let's be constructive on this article. -Justin (koavf), talk, mail 15:08, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

=======>koavf, you are a declared supporter of Polisario views. Do you know that Wikipedia is supposed to be neutral, that is, to bring everyone's view when there is conflict. Now, I've gone through some of your contributions concerning Western Sahara, and found you fit to be a member of the politburo of the polisario front. You are missing the basic rules of objectivity. Let's take your article under light:

- His real name is not mentioned

- Born in Smara is not a fact, you have to bring the proof for it. Because, he lived all his life in Marrakech and Rabat before joining the guerilla.

- SADR is an auto-proclamed state, it is not recognized as a state neither by the UN, nor by the Arab League, nor the Islamic Conference, Only the African Union.

- There is no mention of Abdelaziz's pre-Polisario life. He must have one, doesn't he??

- "He was elected ..". Are you kidding? Omar Hadrami and Lehbib Ayoub among others who were in the core group creating the Polisario front in 1973, and both reintegrated Morocco, affirm it was Algeria which put him on top of Polisario front.

- the word occupation is a POV. Annexation is more balanced.

- "he has been steering towards political compromise...", well, you did not mention why. You could have mentioned that 17 years of war using the latest in the russian weaponery did not lead to any results, so he compelled to diplomatic solutions.

- You mention he accepted the Baker plan of 2003, but did not mention he refused Baker plan of 2001 which calls for solution under autonomy.

- "Under his leadership, Polisario abandonned .... in favor of ...". Again you are kidding. Abdelaziz has been the boss for 30 years. Every policy, either alliance with Cuba, or else is done by him. And I can add that the change of heart is due to the fall of the Berlin Wall, and the new world order that followed. But Fidel Castro, Mugabe, and Chavez, are his closest allies.

- "LIBERAL DEMOCRATIC". Wow, applauses. Bravo. Long life Liberal democracy. No comment.

- "MULTIPARTY DEMOCRACY". Wow, applauses. Bravo. Long life multiparty democracy. No comment.

- "Market Economy". Actually this is already true. International aid is being resold in Mauritania and Algeria for profitable prices. This has been acknowledged from within Polisario.

- The USA and the UE are not Mozambique or Zimbabwe. They know who Abdelaziz really is.

- "clean struggle". Well, let me refer you the report of the french NGO, France Libertés, headed by Danielle Mitterand, spouse of the late French president. The treatment reserved to Moroccan prisoners of war, torture, killing, ... is something to be dealt in an international court for crimes against humanity.

- As terrorism, there is already evidence of terrorist groups operating in the African Desert, buying their weaponery from Polisario gangs. Mauritania has arrested some of them after the attacks on a military base, that killed 12 Mauritanian soldiers.

In conclusion, your article can be normal on the polisario/SADR homepage, but making fun of Wikipedia and making it another portal for Polisario propaganda is unacceptable. You got to bring a source for every point I mentioned above, otherwise, this page will be blanked.--SteveLo 19:43, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

Response to SteveLo

===>New World Order? What in the world was that edit about? I put my biases on my userpage precisely so there is accountability for my edits; not to slander me or write off the contributions I make. Neutrality does not mean that everyone's views are expressed. Not all views, agendas, and biases are of equal weight; they are not all true.

• What is his real name? What is your source for this information?
• How do you know where he was born?
• What does "auto-proclaimed" mean? How is this different than any other state?
• The SADR is recognized by dozens of governments, and the AU is the premier inter-governmental block in the continent, so that's a pretty big deal.
• I'd like to know more about his life; feel free to add things if they are true and sourced.
• Do you have any proof of these allegations?
• How is the word "occupation" POV? Why is "annexation" more balanced? What does "balanced" mean to you exactly? Is the Sahara not occupied?
• This war was provoked entirely by Morocco, right?
• Feel free to write about Baker I. Also, feel free to write about how Morocco accepted Baker II as the basis of negotiation, and then turned their back on it inexplicably, just like they did before in order to draw out the conflict.
• This last series of invectives and sarcastic comments is completely impossible to prove, and I find it doubtful that you have any evidence. If you do, please prove me wrong. As for the report, please do refer me to it.
• If you have evidence of terrorism, feel free to provide it. Why am I supposed to just trust you when you make outrageous allegations like this?
• In conclusion, your article can be normal on the Morocco homepage, but making fun of Wikipedia and making it another portal for Moroccan propaganda is unacceptable.
• Also, I'd like to point out that blanking pages is vandalism. You blank it, you get banned. I'm not scared of you or any kind of threats and bully tactics you might try to pull. -Justin (koavf), talk, mail 06:58, 17 June 2006 (UTC)

Actually you did not answer any the above mentioned issues. You seem to admire Abdelaziz rather than know him. Have no idea or pretend to have no idea about his pr-Polisario life, and want me to make a google search for you to bring you the report of France-Libertés.You ask others to bring sources when you bring none. In brief, I am disapointed in you. --SteveLo 09:36, 17 June 2006 (UTC)

===>What? I systematically addressed every one of your points. You just ignored all of mine. I don't know anything about Abdelaziz's pr[e]-Polisario life; educate me. If you want to present the report by France Libertés, please do. You brought it up as a source; do you expect me to go find it? You're not my mom, so I don't really care whether or not you're disappointed in me or your opinion of me regardless. Let's discuss the article instead. Note that you also did not provide any sources; you made an off-hand comment about one. -Justin (koavf), talk, mail 16:28, 17 June 2006 (UTC)

======> As to Abdelaziz's pre-Polisario life: He lived in Marrakech and Rabat. He never lived in Spanish Sahara. He had a Moroccan ID, and a Moroccan passport. He was a student at the universty of Mohamed V with El Ouali, among other founders of the Polisario front. Is it enough for you?. Moreover, his father has always and still lives in Morocco, not even in "Western Sahara" and he is member of the CORCAS. --SteveLo 17:09, 17 June 2006 (UTC)

===>Okay No, that's not enough. Do you have any proof of this? How is this relevant to anything? Are you just going to ignore all of the other issues that I brought up earlier? You're not going to convince me of your argument by putting scare quotes around names. -Justin (koavf), talk, mail 17:25, 17 June 2006 (UTC)

=====> Koavf, I know it is kiling stuff. It as been a nightmare for Polisario that the world knows who actually Abdelaziz is, and I know it is a nightmare to you too. Now, Don't you think a mention of his Moroccan period should be in the article? As a Polisario fan I guess answered: No way, that will be the KO. But it will be in the article. --SteveLo 18:05, 17 June 2006 (UTC)

===>What? Most of that wasn't even intelligible. I don't have anything emotionally invested in his childhood. I think that if you can provide any evidence of your assertions, you should. I think you should also address the concerns that I brought up earlier instead of ignoring me. -Justin (koavf), talk, mail 18:10, 17 June 2006 (UTC)

======> Not intelligible??, but you seem to understand it as you react to it. --SteveLo 18:28, 17 June 2006 (UTC)

===>Alright Clearly, you don't want to discuss it. -Justin (koavf), talk, mail 18:34, 17 June 2006 (UTC)

=====> Now Justin, Do you think Abdelaziz's Pre-Polisario period should be mentioned? eh?. --SteveLo 18:36, 17 June 2006 (UTC)

===>What do you want from me? If you ignore me and keep on reverting, you'll be banned permanently. I'm trying to be civil here, and you're not. Let's actually discuss the content of the article. If you've got sourced information, I'd be happy to see it. If you have speculation, hearsay, or biased invectives, save them for somewhere else. -Justin (koavf), talk, mail 19:22, 17 June 2006 (UTC)

Response to koavf

=======> "I'm trying to be civil here, and you're not" is a pure personal attack. As a "civil" you have been invloved in reverting more than I was. Moreover, Calling for blocking me was a sign of weakness.

The basic points about this article are the following:

1- Abdelaziz was indeed born in Marrakech,Morocco. You say he is born in Smara. What is your proof for that. In other Wiki-pages, as a compromise, anly the date of birth is mentioned, but not the place.

2- Pre-Polisario life of Mohammed Abdelaziz. Why do you strongly object to mentioning it?. Is it because it shows his Moroccan origin, that you don't want people to know?. This is a major issue.

3- All the talk about liberal democracy and market economy is void. How can we talk of a liberal democrat who sitts on top of a structure for 30 years, whitout political opponents? --SteveLo 12:00, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

===>Misconceptions Steve, we're not communicating here. I'll address every concern you bring to the table, and I'd appreciate you doing the same.

• I don't care if you think I'm weak. It's totally irrelevant to this article. This talk page is about this article and this article only. If you want to talk about my character, please do so on my talk page.
• Where did you get this information that he was born in Marrakech? All you need to do is provide some source. I never said he was born in Smara; I don't know where he was born. What are these pages to which you refer about birthplace?
• I have made it clear several times that I am not opposed to mentioning the pre-Polisario life of Mohamed Adbelaziz. In fact, I'd love for it to be here, as I know very little about it. But, if you bring up contentious information with no proof, why should I trust it? I actually beg to differ about his being born in Morocco being a major issue - why should it be?
• Why is this talk "void?" The article says that Polisario are committed to establishing a multi-party democracy and so it is inherently speculative. If you think it's fantastic, you can look at the example of Olusẹgun Ọbasanjọ, president of Nigeria. He was part of a military coup that overthrew the democratic government, he peacefully handed back power to constitutional means, and he was elected president in free and fair elections several years later. -Justin (koavf), talk, mail 02:43, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

====> it is becoming now clear that Koavf's principle is that every information that is put in the article should be sourced. Am I right?. If yes, then:

• the article states that Abdelaziz is born in Smara. What is the proof of it?. I wrote it many times. If there is none, Smara should be removed, and only the birth year left.
• If you have read 6 books about Western sahara as you said in a comment, and none of them mentioned Abdelaziz's Moroccan origin, nor that his father in retired from the Moroccan Armed Forces, nor that he lives in Tadla, north of Marrakech nor that his brother is a doctor in Beni-Mellal hospital near Tadla , nor that his father is now member of the CORCAS, the council that prepares the territory for autonomy, if none is said about him as if he fell from the sky in 1973 to be present when the Polisario was formed, then I recommand that you look for books elsewhere than just from the Polisario library. So, Justin, bring that proof for Smara please. I am eager to get it.
• what Abdelaziz promises to do once he has an independent state, is not a fact. All dictatorships promise everything in their constitutions, but the reality is somethig different. Some of the worst dictatorships on earth have the word "Democratic" in their official names. The Democratic republic of Korea (North), etc. So, the article should deal of what is the situation now and in the last 30 years since the proclamation of the SADR. Remeber that the "D" in SADR means Democratic, so he has promised Democracy since 1976. Judging by these 30 years of the "Democratic" SADR, I don't think he kept his promise. So all sentences dealing whith futuristic promises or speculations (liberal democracy, market economy) are POVs. One can be speculative somewhere else but not in an encyclopedia.
• Comparision with Olusẹgun Ọbasanjọ seems to completely irrelevant. Obasanjo has not been "Head of State" for 30 years without political opponents. --SteveLo 13:45, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

===>Not my principle Look below the editing window any time that you make any change to any page on Wikipedia and it says "Content must not violate any copyright and must be based on verifiable sources." (emphasis added) If you think that a certain piece of information is to be called into question, the solution is not to delete it; there is a tag to place in the article for unsourced claims: Template:Fact. Also, bear in mind I'm not making the claim that he was born in Smara.

• The only things I've read about his pre-Polisario life are when he was a student leading directly into his Polisario career. As far as I'm aware, there is no biography of him in any language that I know. I'm not sure how these books are supposed to mention that his father is in CORCAS, since that was reassembled this year. That having been said, how is it relevant that his brother is a doctor in Beni-Mellal hospital near Tadla? Are we supposed to write about the careers of every sibling on every Wikipedia biography? If you have books to suggest, feel free.
• What the SADR is committed to doing is a fact; it is a fact that these commitments have been made. The article is neither claiming nor suggesting that these things will come to pass. They are not "POVs;" they are relevant information to the ideology of the President. Futhermore, I'm not sure what you think "POV" means, but I'm not sure that you're using it in an intelligible way.
• The comparison with Ọbasanjọ merely illustrates that what you wrote about Kim Jong-il is true at times and not true at other times. There are occassions in history when dictators give up power. If you think Abdelaziz is a dictator (there is not evidence of this), then you'd have to concede from this example that it is not unfeasible for democratic reform to happen. -Justin (koavf), talk, mail 15:29, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

Other Facts about Mohamed Abdelaziz

His wife is algerian and she's the daughter of the president of the national algerian parliament which is controlled by the algerian presidency.

This can tell a lot about the close ties that tie him with the Algerian regime. He's indeed seen as the Polisario Algerian Man. He's also involved in assassinating El Ouali when in mission in Mauritani in 1976.

El Ouali was quite outspoken and somehow independent from the Algerian regime. It's Algeria that imposed him on polisario. He was never elected or whatsover. No internal democracy. No separation of powers during his rule. How can Wikipedia claim that he's pro liberalism and democracy ?

We really need an unbiased profile of this man. Not something copy-pasted from pro-Polisario sites.

Hi,

• Thanks for your remarks. If you could sign them that would great. It would let us know who is saying what and when. If oyu don't knwo how to do just watch the help lines under the editing form.
• Feel free to add you information as long as you have reliable sources or can justify their factual basis.
• Many of the articles on the Sahara are indeed writen and edited by pro-polisarian activits who openly say they do for the independece of the Sahara, so no suprise to read here that this guy is the biggest democrat of the world and that the so-called "sadr" is almost more democratic than sweden.

Cheers - wikima 19:33, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

Image

I am curious about this image. It is obviously photo shopped and the source website is not what it claims to be and I am quite certain does not contain such a picture anywhere. Jammy07 (talk) 12:00, 27 February 2009 (UTC)

I have removed the image because a) it had obviously been photo-shopped, and b) the source given for the photo was not related to the image at all. Jammy07 (talk) 01:40, 23 June 2009 (UTC)

Does not speak spanish

Does not understand or speak Spanish According to: De la case africaine à la villa romaine: un demi-siècle au service de l'état page 174

Would he need an interpreter for this if he spoke Spanish? Please do not falsify the article, I've provided WP:RS whereas the claim that he speaks Spanish is not supported by any source at all --Tachfin (talk) 23:48, 24 August 2011 (UTC)

Journal Hebdomadaire incident

I've rewritten the paragraph on Le Journal, because the citations seemed lacking. The first referenced a Le Monde story that didn't even mention Western Sahara; the second was a bad link to RSF. I've reexpanded with text from Aboubakr Jamaï. Cheers, Khazar (talk) 13:19, 5 February 2012 (UTC)

Place of Birth : WP:OR statements that "he wasn't born in Morocco but in French Morocco"

The user Koavf justified some of his edits [1] by his statement that "he wasn't born in Morocco, (...) the contemporary kingdom which did not exist".

As an answer to these WP:OR statements, here are the WP:RS:

• As an answer to the claim that people born in Morocco while under French protectorate can't be considered as "simply born in Morocco" : they are considered as simply "born in Morocco" (Moroccan citizens) according to French law.
• As an answer to the claim that Morocco under French protectorate isn't the same entity than modern Morocco:
  • Bengt Brons, "States : The classification of States", in: International Law: Achievements and Prospects, Martinus Nijhoff Publishers 1991 (ISBN: 9789231027161), p.51 §.31 [2]
  • Repertory of Decisions of the International Court of Justice, vol.1, p.453 [3]
• As an answer that the modern Moroccan state came to existence only after the end of the French protectorate:
  • "tradition (...) reaches back to the origins of the modern Moroccan state in the ninth century Idrisid dynasty which founded the venerable city of. Fes", G Joffe, Morocco: Monarchy, legitimacy and succession, in : Third World Quarterly, 1988 [4]
  • "The Idrisids, the founder dynasty of Fas and, ideally at least, of the modern Moroccan state (...)", Moroccan dynastic shurfa’‐hood in two historical contexts: idrisid cult and ‘Alawid power in : The Journal of North African Studies Volume 6, Issue 2, 2001 [5]

All these WP:RS given, saying that "Modern Morocco" came into existence in 1956 is WP:OR. :)
Regards,
--Omar-toons (talk) 15:46, 6 February 2013 (UTC)

Sources For what it's worth, I can't get your French-language sources to display. The article on Morocco is about the contemporary Kingdom of Morocco, a state which gained its independence from European powers in 1956. We have a similar situation with (e.g.) China. There are presently two Chinese states (the People's Republic of China and the Republic of China), but there has been a Chinese state for thousands of years, but saying that someone was born in "China" when that is the title of our article on the contemporary communist state is anachronistic. —Justin (koavf)❤T☮C☺M☯ 18:53, 7 February 2013 (UTC)

WP:OR comparisons. The ICJ and WP:RS seem to not agree with your opinion. --Omar-toons (talk) 02:26, 8 February 2013 (UTC)

What? How can a comparison be a "WP:OR comparison"? —Justin (koavf)❤T☮C☺M☯ 06:13, 8 February 2013 (UTC)

A recent diff was justified by the fact that "The Kingdom of Morocco didn't exist at the time--it was a French protectorate". Since I gave many (highly) reliable sources saying the opposite, this statement is WP:OR.

Regards,

--Omar-toons (talk) 13:05, 8 February 2013 (UTC)

Please, stop the nonsense. This is not a special case, so as the rest of cases, on the place of birth we put the country/state/nation of the moment, in this case French Morocco. What is not logic and a double standard is to put the country/state/nation of the moment in some cases and not in others.--HCPUNXKID (talk) 16:08, 16 March 2013 (UTC)

PD:Ah, and if someone had doubts about the lack of neutrality of some editors, why so many protests against the "French Morocco" label and not a single word about the "Spanish Sahara" label? No comment about that...--HCPUNXKID (talk) 16:12, 16 March 2013 (UTC)

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