Talk:Eliezer Ben-Yehuda

Untitled

Not only does this article not have the form of a standard Wikipedia article, but it's decidedly POV, making sweeping and probably false statements such as the introductory one. It also needs to be paragraphed.

If the contributor is watching, we appreciate the contribution, which contains a lot of useful information, but would appreciate it if you could help clean it up.

Derrick Coetzee 00:43, 3 Mar 2004 (UTC)

It is unbelievable, but the introductory one is completely true. It is amazing what this man did to Ivrit. I am immensely surprised there was no this article until now. Shame on you, Jews. I know only two languages literally restored from ashes: Hebrew and Czech. Mikkalai 05:55, 3 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Contradictions in online sources

Hi everyone. I started writing a biography on Eliezer Ben-Yehuda in French (see Éliézer Ben Yéhouda) and I have found multiple contradictions in the sources I have found in English and French. Unfortunately, I do not read Hebrew, Yiddish, Russian nor German, nor any other language (shame on me!). I should really get at least one book on him, ideally in French, but those I found online were really expensive! Anyway, I am hoping someone can help me clarify things up. Here are the main problems :

• Perelman or Perlman? Why the various spellings of his family name? What is his native language anyway? Yiddish?
• Where on earth is Luzhky, Eliezer Ben-Yehuda's birthplace? Is it in Lituania or in Belarus? (Google Earth was of no help on this.)
• When was the Committee of the Hebrew Language founded? 1889, 1891, 1904? Did he found it on his own initiative? Who were the other founders?
• When did he publish the first volume of The Complete Dictionary of Ancient and Modern Hebrew?
• How many volumes did he write himself before he passed away? Is it 5?

Thank you! Merci! -- Mathieugp 00:46, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

• The name: In yiddish it is written as Perlman (that would be the proper YIVO transliteration). However, the Yiddish r sound is quite unique and was often misheared/transscribed as re, thus Perelman became the usual accepted writing for this widespread Jewish surname.
• From Russian wikipedia: When Ben-Yehuda was born Luzhki was in the Vilna Gubernia (i.e. Lithuanian Province) of the Russian Empire. Today it is located in Belarus.84.167.249.71 00:33, 27 April 2007 (UTC)

Wrong attribution of birth place

If he was born in Vilna, this is in Lithuania, not in northern Belarus as the text reads. Mountolive | Talk 07:26, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

Hello Mountolive. I am happy to speak to someone from Vilna. Do you think it is possible that there are two (or more) towns named Luzhky, one in Lithuania, one in Belarus? All sources I have read say that Eliezer Ben-Yehuda is from Luzhky in Lithuania except for this one:

* http://www.pravapis.org/art_benyehuda2.asp

This person, Uladzimir Katkouski, claims in the footnotes that:

"Here Jack Fellman wrote "Lithuanian village of Luzhky". This is such an unpleasant mistake! I guess that was a surprise to learn this "fact" for any reader who comes from Belarus. It is well-known that Luzhki (Л`ужкі) is a town in northern Belarus, not some obscure "Lithuanian village". So this should've been "Belarusian town of Luzhki".

The reason for this mistake is quite clear though. Belarus and Lithuania share common history, for centuries we lived together in a multiethnical and multiconfessional state, the Grand Duchy of Lithuania. Vilnia (Vilnius) was truly a Belarusian capital. Now, at the time of Ben-Yehuda's birth Vilnia region and the rest of Belarus was occupied by the Russian Empire and Ben-Yehuda's birth place, the town of Luzhki, according to the Russian administrative division, was a part of "Vilenskaja gubernia" (Vilnia region). It is well-known that Vilnia historically has been a Belarusian capital, but Joseph Stalin gave it to Lithuanians. Still, the town of Luzhki remained a part of Belarus, and never has been a part of modern Lithuanian state. So, whichever way you look at it, saying "Lithuanian village" is wrong.

Over all, this trend makes me very upset. Simon Peres was born and grew up in Belarus (village Vishnia and town of Valozhyn), Ariel Sharon's parents come from Belarus, Ben-Yehuda grew up in Belarus (in Luzhki and Polacak), Etgar Keret's parents come from Belarus (Baranavichy), the first prime minister of Israel comes from Belarus, Marc Chagall grew up and lived in eastern Belarus (Vitebsk), many-many other imminent Jews come from our lands, but somehow this is never acknoweledged by the American writers and researchers, who just say "comes from Russia", showing their "great knowledge" of Eastern European geography and "deep respect" for other cultures! Harvard education does not seem to be of any help either."

Since I am not qualified at all to settle this debate, being from Quebec where we know as much of Eastern Europe as in the rest of North America, I don't know what to do with this. This did not stop me from improving my draft bio of Eliezer Ben-Yehuda, but I would really prefer not to mislead my French readers on his birthplace... :-) -- Mathieugp 16:47, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

Well, sorry to disappoint you but I am not from anywhere near Lithuania ;)

I am in a similar case as yours: I just ended up in this article by chance and, being no expert, I didn't dare to edit, if I was I would for sure have changed it to Lithuania instead of Northern Belarus.

But this note you bring is actually confusing things more because it turns out to be that he wasn't from Vilna, but from Luzhki (so called northern Belarus town). Then, why on earth it reads that he was born in "Vilna (northern Belarus)": neither he was born in Vilna (apparently he was born in Luzhki) nor Vilna is in Belarus, so... ¿?

It is true that Vilna is very close to the northern Belarus border, so it may well be that, if he was born in Luzhki, that is a peripheral town from Vilna but within Belarus. Still, it is not correct to say that Vilna was a Belarusian city, because it was neither Belarussian nor Lithuanian, but Polish (yes, Eastern Europe was such a mess! :D)

I won't dare to do it myself, because I don't know where he was born, but I guess the safest bet is "Luzhki, nothern Belarus" but what is clear is that the present redaction "Vilna, northern Belarus" is very wrong... Mountolive | Talk 03:10, 20 March 2007 (UTC)

Oops...I think I understand now: Vilna is mentioned as Vilna Guberniya, not as the city itself. I have made a minor edit which, I think, clarifies the whole thing. Mountolive | Talk 23:12, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

Reads with an agenda

The article reads like a fairy tale with half Charedi zionist downplay and a Reform zionist suck up. None of which decribe Eliezer at all. 203.206.234.139 18:42, 8 July 2007 (UTC)

Quote

What is the purpose of this quote where it is. “ Before Ben‑Yehuda...Jews could speak Hebrew; after him, they did. ”

-Cecil Roth, Was Hebrew Ever A Dead Language?

AllenHansen (talk) 21:29, 15 March 2008 (UTC)

The quote doesn't actually appear in the article (which also isn't a book). It was falsely cited by historian Jack Fellman and then repeated all over the internet. I added a reference to Jack Fellman and reworded the sentence.

Birth date

Is the date 7 January 1858 a Julian or Gregorian date? -- JackofOz (talk) 09:16, 24 July 2008 (UTC)

Top importance?

While I agree that Ben Yehuda is very important for WP Israel, I don't think he qualifies as a core Israeli topic, and therefore shouldn't be top-priority on the project. If there are no objections, I will change to high priority. -- Ynhockey ^(Talk) 22:25, 27 October 2008 (UTC)

Cecil Roth quote

In the "Death and commemoration" section, there is this quote by Cecil Roth stating his opinion of the significance of Ben-Yehuda's legacy: "Before Ben‑Yehuda, Jews could speak Hebrew; after him, they did." This does not seem to be an accurate or reasonable assessment, and I wonder whether its inclusion in this article is really necessary or constructive: it is hardly objective or non-POV. It utterly fails to recognise that Hebrew was spoken only by a very small number of people and only used for religious purposes – little better than Latin today – and it has since become a national language spoken by millions for everyday conversation and is the official language of Israel. To deny that contribution seems to be to pursue some agenda. Does it belong in an encyclopaedia article? (If it does, which I doubt, then certainly the contrary view needs to be included as well.) Richard75 (talk) 14:16, 24 September 2019 (UTC)

I have reconsidered this as I think I misinterpreted what Roth meant. This article clarifies what Roth meant: before Ben Yehuda Jews could speak Hebrew, but mostly didn't; after him, they spoke it all the time — "could" compared with "did." I have clarified this in the article. Richard75 (talk) 18:11, 25 September 2019 (UTC)