Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Speedy
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Speedy renaming or speedy merging of categories may be requested only if they meet a speedy criterion, for example WP:C2D (consistency with main article's name) or WP:C2C (consistency with established category tree names). Please see instructions below.
- Determine which speedy criterion applies
- Tag category page with
{{subst:cfr-speedy|New name}}
or{{subst:cfm-speedy|Merge target}}
- List request along with speedy criteria reason under "Current requests" below on this page
Please note that a speedy request must state which of the narrowly defined criteria strictly applies. Hence, any other non-speedy criteria, even "common sense" or "obvious", may be suitable points, but only at a full discussion at WP:Categories for discussion.
Request may take 48 hours to process after listing if there are no objections. This delay allows other users to review the request to ensure that it meets the speedy criteria for speedy renaming or merging, and to raise objections to the proposed change.
Categories that qualify for speedy deletion (per Wikipedia:Criteria for speedy deletion, e.g., "patent nonsense", "recreation") can be tagged with the regular speedy tags, such as {{db|reason}}
with no required delay. Empty categories can be deleted if they remain empty 7 days after tagging with {{db-empty}}. Renaming under C2E may also be processed instantly (at the discretion of an administrator) as it is a variation on G7.
To oppose a speedy request you must record your objection within 48 hours of the nomination. Do this by inserting immediately under the nomination:
- Oppose, (the reasons for your objection). ~~~~
You will not be able to do this by editing the page WP:Categories for discussion. Instead, you should edit the section WP:Categories for discussion#Add requests for speedy renaming and merging here or the page WP:Categories for discussion/Speedy#Add requests for speedy renaming and merging here (WP:CFDS). Be aware that in the course of any discussion, the nomination and its discussion may get moved further down the page purely for organizational convenience – you may need to search WP:CFDS to find the new location. Participate in any ongoing discussion, but unless you withdraw your opposition, a knowledgeable person may eventually bring forward the nomination and discussion to become a regular CFD discussion. At that stage you may add further comments, but your initial opposition will still be considered. However, if after seven days there has been no support for the request, and no response from the nominator, the request may be dropped from further consideration as a speedy.
Contested speedy requests become stale, and can be untagged and delisted after 7 days of inactivity. Optionally, if the discussion may be useful for future reference, it may be copied to the category talk page, with a section heading and {{moved discussion from|[[WP:CFDS]]|2=~~~~}}
. If the nominator wants to revive the process, this may be requested at WP:Categories for discussion (CfD) in accordance with its instructions.
If you belatedly notice and want to oppose a speedy move that has already been processed, contact one of the admins who process the Speedy page. If your objection seems valid, they may reverse the move, or start a full CFD discussion.
Speedy criteria
The category-specific criteria for speedy renaming, or merging are strictly limited to:
C2A: Typographic and spelling fixes
- Correction of spelling errors and capitalization fixes. Differences between British and American spelling (e.g. Harbours → Harbors) are not considered errors; however if the convention of the relevant category tree is to use one form over the other then a rename may be appropriate under C2C. If both spellings exist as otherwise-identical category names, they should be merged.
- Appropriate conversion of hyphens into en dashes or vice versa (e.g. Category:Canada-Russia relations → Category:Canada–Russia relations).
- Correction of obvious grammatical errors, such as a missing conjunction (e.g. Individual frogs toads → Individual frogs and toads). This includes pluralizing a noun in the name of a set category, but not when disagreement might reasonably be anticipated as to whether the category is a topic or set category.
C2B: Consistency with established Wikipedia naming conventions and practices
- Expanding abbreviated country names (e.g. U.S. → United States).
- Disambiguation fixes from an unqualified name (e.g. Category:Washington → Category:Washington (state) or Category:Washington, D.C.).
C2C: Consistency with established category tree names
Bringing a category into line with established naming conventions for that category tree, or into line with the various "x by y", "x of y", or "x in y" categorization conventions specified at Wikipedia:Category names
- This should be used only where there is no room for doubt that the category in question is being used for the standard purpose instead of being a potential subcategory.
- This criterion should be applied only when there is no ambiguity or doubt over the existence of a category naming convention. Such a convention must be well defined and must be overwhelmingly used within the tree. If this is not the case then the category in question must be brought forward to a full Cfd nomination.
- This criterion will not apply in cases where the category tree observes distinctions in local usage (e.g. Category:Transportation in the United States and Category:Transport in the United Kingdom).
C2D: Consistency with main article's name
- Renaming a topic category to match its eponymous page (e.g. Category:The Beatles and The Beatles).
- This applies only if the related page's current name (and by extension, the proposed name for the category) is:
- unambiguous (so it generally does not apply to proposals to remove a disambiguator from the category name, even when the main article is the primary topic of its name, i.e. it does not contain a disambiguator); and
- uncontroversial, either because of longstanding stability at that particular name, or because the page was just moved (i) after a page move discussion resulted in explicit consensus to rename, or (ii) unilaterally to reflect an official renaming which is verified by one or more citations (provided in the nomination). C2D does not apply if the result would be contrary to guidelines at WP:CATNAME, or there is any ongoing discussion about the name of the page or category, or there has been a recent discussion concerning any of the pages that resulted in a no consensus result, or it is controversial in some other way.
- This criterion may also be used to rename a set category in the same circumstances, where the set is defined by a renamed topic; e.g. players for a sports team, or places in a district.
- Before nominating a category to be renamed per WP:C2D, consider whether it makes more sense to move the article instead of the category.
C2E: Author request
- This criterion applies only if the author of a category requests or agrees to renaming within six months of creating the category.
- The criterion does not apply if other editors have populated or changed the category since it was created. "Other editors" includes bots that populated the category, but excludes an editor working with the author on the renaming.
C2F: One eponymous page
- This criterion applies if the category contains only an eponymous article, list, template or media file, provided that the category has not otherwise been emptied shortly before the nomination. The default outcome is an upmerge to the parent categories, where applicable. Nominations should use
{{subst:cfm-speedy}}
(speedy merger) linking to a suitable parent category, or to another appropriate category (e.g. one that is currently on the article).
Admin instructions
When handling the listings:
- Make sure that the listing meets one of the above criteria.
- With the exception of C2E, make sure that it was both listed and tagged at least 48 hours previously.
- Make sure that there is no opposition to the listing; if there is a discussion, check if the opposing user(s) ended up withdrawing their opposition.
If the listing meets these criteria, simply have the category renamed or merged – follow the instructions at Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Administrator instructions, in the section "If the decision is to Rename, Merge, or Delete"; to list it for the bots, use the Speedy moves section.
Applying speedy criteria in full discussions
- A nomination to merge or rename, brought forward as a full CfD, may be speedily closed if the closing administrator is satisfied that:
- The nomination clearly falls within the scope of one of the criteria listed here, and
- No objections have been made within 48 hours of the initial nomination.
- If both these conditions are satisfied, the closure will be regarded as having been a result of a speedy nomination. If any objections have been raised then the CfD nomination will remain in place for the usual 7-day discussion period, to be decided in accordance with expressed consensus.
Add requests for speedy renaming and merging here
If the category and desired change do not match one of the criteria mentioned in C2, do not list it here. Instead, list it in the main CFD section.
If you are in any doubt as to whether it qualifies, do not list it here.
Use the following format on a new line at the beginning of the list:
* [[:Category:old name]] to [[:Category:new name]] – Reason ~~~~
(The four ~ will sign and datestamp the entry automatically.)
If the current name should be redirected rather than deleted, use:
* REDIRECT [[:Category:old name]] to [[:Category:new name]] – Reason ~~~~
To note that human action is required, e.g. updating a template that populates the category, use:
* NO BOTS [[:Category:old name]] to [[:Category:new name]] – Reason ~~~~
Remember to tag the category page with: {{subst:cfr-speedy|New name}}
A request may be completed if it is more than 48 hours old; that is, if the time stamp shown is earlier than 09:23, 24 September 2024 (UTC). Currently, there are 203 open requests (. )
Administrators and page movers: Do not use the "Move" tab to move categories listed here!Categories are processed following the 48-hour waiting period and are moved by a bot. |
Current requests
Please add new requests at the top of the list, preferably with a link to the parent category (in case of C2C) or relevant article (in case of C2D).
- Category:People in sports awarded knighthoods to Category:Sportspeople awarded knighthoods – C2B. Omnis Scientia (talk) 00:33, 27 May 2024 (UTC)
- Category:Urdu-language writers from Mughal India to Category:Urdu-language writers from the Mughal Empire – C2C: parent is Writers from the Mughal Empire Mason (talk) 22:27, 26 May 2024 (UTC)
- Category:Memorario to Category:Transport in Tuscany – C2F. Mason (talk) 15:09, 26 May 2024 (UTC)
- Category:Lapinjärvi (municipality) to Category:Lapinjärvi – C2D. Lapinjärvi. Justarandomamerican (talk) Have a good day! 02:27, 26 May 2024 (UTC)
- Category:Indian economy templates to Category:India economy templates – C2C: replace adjective with the noun similar to subcategories of Category:Economics templates by country and the category tree of Category:Templates by country. —andrybak (talk) 21:46, 25 May 2024 (UTC)
- Category:India company templates to Category:India company navigational boxes – C2C: the category consists only of navboxes. Rename for consistency with Category:India navigational boxes. —andrybak (talk) 21:41, 25 May 2024 (UTC)
- Category:Chuvash topics to Category:Chuvashia – C2F. Mason (talk) 21:19, 25 May 2024 (UTC)
- Category:Muslim Brotherhood women to Category:Female Muslim Brotherhood members – C2C: parent is Muslim Brotherhood members and Female Islamic religious leaders. these women are still members of the organization... Mason (talk) 20:42, 25 May 2024 (UTC)
- Category:Jewish Israeli pro-Palestinian activists to Category:Jewish Israeli activists for Palestinian solidarity – C2C: parent is Israeli activists for Palestinian solidarity Mason (talk) 19:15, 25 May 2024 (UTC)
- Category:Sportspeople by city in the Federation of Bosnia and Herzegovina to Category:Sportspeople from the Federation of Bosnia and Herzegovina by populated place – C2C. Omnis Scientia (talk) 13:28, 25 May 2024 (UTC)
- Category:Hoblitzelle Foundation to Category:Non-profit organizations based in Texas – C2F. Mason (talk) 13:15, 25 May 2024 (UTC)
- Category:Sportspeople by city in Georgia (country) to Category:Sportspeople from Georgia (country) by populated place – C2C: Main categories are Category:Sportspeople by country and populated place and Category:Sport in Georgia (country) by populated place Omnis Scientia (talk) 13:03, 25 May 2024 (UTC)
- Category:Bosnia and Herzegovina sportspeople by city to Category:Bosnia and Herzegovina sportspeople by populated place – C2C: main category is Category:Sportspeople by country and populated place Omnis Scientia (talk) 13:01, 25 May 2024 (UTC)
- Category:Language preservation to Category:Sociology of language – C2F. Mason (talk) 12:29, 25 May 2024 (UTC)
- Category:Government College in Hyderabad, India to Category:Universities and colleges in Hyderabad, India – C2F. Mason (talk) 04:02, 25 May 2024 (UTC)
- Category:New York Giants (NL) to Category:New York Giants (baseball)
- Category:New York Giants (NL) personnel to Category:New York Giants (baseball) personnel
- Category:New York Giants (NL) owners to Category:New York Giants (baseball) owners
- Category:New York Giants (NL) scouts to Category:New York Giants (baseball) scouts
- Category:New York Giants (NL) field personnel to Category:New York Giants (baseball) field personnel
- Category:New York Giants (NL) managers to Category:New York Giants (baseball) managers
- Category:New York Giants (NL) players to Category:New York Giants (baseball) players
- Category:New York Giants (NL) executives to Category:New York Giants (baseball) executives
- Category:New York Giants (NL) announcers to Category:New York Giants (baseball) announcers
- Category:New York Giants (NL) seasons to Category:New York Giants (baseball) seasons
- Category:New York Giants (NL) postseason to Category:New York Giants (baseball) postseason
- Category:New York Giants (NL) spring training venues to Category:New York Giants (baseball) spring training venues
- Category:New York Giants (NL) stadiums to Category:New York Giants (baseball) stadiums – C2D: main article is New York Giants (baseball). Omnis Scientia (talk) 19:27, 24 May 2024 (UTC)
Opposed requests
- Category:Martin J. Whitman School of Management alumni to Category:Whitman School of Management alumni – C2B; the parent category at Category:Alumni by business school in the United States shows all the business schools named by the last name and this category shows up out of place because of the Martin J. in the start. Should be ranked simply as Whitman School. Could be left as a REDIRECT page for new additions. Thanks. Kiran_891 (TALK) 15:29, 24 May 2024 (UTC)
- Oppose Current title is consistent with Martin J. Whitman School of Management. * Pppery * it has begun... 16:19, 24 May 2024 (UTC)
- Category:Battles involving the East Frisians to Category:Battles involving East Frisia – C2C: Parent Category:History of East Frisia. NLeeuw (talk) 14:50, 24 May 2024 (UTC)
- Oppose, East Frisia is a region, it is not a (former) state that was a belligerent in a battle. Marcocapelle (talk) 08:16, 25 May 2024 (UTC)
- They all involved the County of East Frisia or its predecessors: Saxon feud, Appeal War, Battle of Detern (predecessors Brokmerland and Auricherland), Battle of Norditi (predecessor Norderland; actually involving the Bishop of Bremen-Hamburg, so perhaps it should be Purged). All of these (except Norditi) aren't really about the East Frisians as a people without a state; these are noble/dynastic conflicts between members of reigning families such as Tom Brok, Cirksena and so on.
- On the other hand, if this isn't about a state, then we should Purge parent Category:Wars involving Frisia. NLeeuw (talk) 17:46, 25 May 2024 (UTC)
- Oppose, East Frisia is a region, it is not a (former) state that was a belligerent in a battle. Marcocapelle (talk) 08:16, 25 May 2024 (UTC)
- @Yinweiaiqing: isn't "in" an odd preproposition? I'd say "under" or perhaps "during". Marcocapelle (talk) 06:15, 24 May 2024 (UTC)
- Category:Cricketers from Chittagong Division to Category:Chittagong Division cricketers - merging. أبو هشام (talk) 15:12, 23 May 2024 (UTC)
- Oppose speedy; first form is the correct one and this should go to full Cfd, not speedy. Omnis Scientia (talk) 20:08, 23 May 2024 (UTC)
- Category:Azure Striker Gunvolt series to Category:Azure Striker Gunvolt – C2F: No need for a separate games category QuantumFoam66 (talk) 02:45, 15 May 2024 (UTC)
- I do not think this is eligible under C2F and probably needs to go though a full discussion. Ymblanter (talk) 05:32, 17 May 2024 (UTC)
- Oops I think I meant the do it other way around. Eh, both categories deserve to get deleted anyway QuantumFoam66 (talk) 20:50, 17 May 2024 (UTC)
- @QuantumFoam66: better nominate them at full CfD then. Marcocapelle (talk) 08:02, 18 May 2024 (UTC)
- Oops I think I meant the do it other way around. Eh, both categories deserve to get deleted anyway QuantumFoam66 (talk) 20:50, 17 May 2024 (UTC)
- I do not think this is eligible under C2F and probably needs to go though a full discussion. Ymblanter (talk) 05:32, 17 May 2024 (UTC)
On hold pending other discussion
- None currently
Moved to full discussion
- Category:Yoruba Muslim leaders to Category:Yoruba Muslim clergy – C2C: parent is Muslim clergy Mason (talk) 00:59, 19 May 2024 (UTC)
- Oppose, not all articles in the category are about clergy. Marcocapelle (talk) 14:52, 19 May 2024 (UTC)
- Move to full? Mason (talk) 12:35, 20 May 2024 (UTC)
- @Smasongarrison: fair enough, but I would advocate "religious leaders" rather than "clergy" per the other parent category. Religious leaders is broader than clergy. Marcocapelle (talk) 20:17, 20 May 2024 (UTC)
- I'd be fine with religious leaders. Mason (talk) 22:26, 20 May 2024 (UTC)
- Do not we have consensus here? Ymblanter (talk) 21:05, 21 May 2024 (UTC)
- @Ymblanter: consensus yes, but C2C does not apply because the two parent categories have different formats (clergy vs religious leaders). If this were to be speedied, it could be done per WP:IAR. Marcocapelle (talk) 06:15, 23 May 2024 (UTC)
- I see, someone should take it to the full discussion. Ymblanter (talk) 06:22, 23 May 2024 (UTC)
- @Ymblanter: consensus yes, but C2C does not apply because the two parent categories have different formats (clergy vs religious leaders). If this were to be speedied, it could be done per WP:IAR. Marcocapelle (talk) 06:15, 23 May 2024 (UTC)
- Do not we have consensus here? Ymblanter (talk) 21:05, 21 May 2024 (UTC)
- I'd be fine with religious leaders. Mason (talk) 22:26, 20 May 2024 (UTC)
- @Smasongarrison: fair enough, but I would advocate "religious leaders" rather than "clergy" per the other parent category. Religious leaders is broader than clergy. Marcocapelle (talk) 20:17, 20 May 2024 (UTC)
- Move to full? Mason (talk) 12:35, 20 May 2024 (UTC)
- Moved to full discussion. Marcocapelle (talk) 19:00, 25 May 2024 (UTC)
- Oppose, not all articles in the category are about clergy. Marcocapelle (talk) 14:52, 19 May 2024 (UTC)
- Category:Baseball players in the United States by populated place to Category:Baseball players from the United States by populated place – C2C. Omnis Scientia (talk) 12:57, 22 May 2024 (UTC)
- Category:Baseball players by city or town in Taiwan to Category:Baseball players from Taiwan by populated place – C2C. Omnis Scientia (talk) 12:56, 22 May 2024 (UTC)
- Category:Baseball players by city or town in South Korea to Category:Baseball players from South Korea by populated place – C2C. Omnis Scientia (talk) 12:56, 22 May 2024 (UTC)
- Category:Baseball players by city or town in Puerto Rico to Category:Baseball players from Puerto Rico by populated place – C2C. Omnis Scientia (talk) 12:56, 22 May 2024 (UTC)
- Category:Baseball players by city or town in Canada to Category:Baseball players from Canada by populated place – C2C. Omnis Scientia (talk) 12:55, 22 May 2024 (UTC)
- Category:Baseball players by city or town in Australia to Category:Baseball players from Australia by populated place – C2C. Omnis Scientia (talk) 12:55, 22 May 2024 (UTC)
- Category:Baseball players by city or town in Mexico to Category:Baseball players from Mexico by populated place – C2C. Omnis Scientia (talk) 12:55, 22 May 2024 (UTC)
- C2C to what? Oppose until clarified. Armbrust The Homunculus 15:54, 22 May 2024 (UTC)
- @Armbrust, clarify what precisely? The split should be at the end and the recent Cfd is that "by city and town" in categories, as @Smasongarrison will note, is now "by populated place". Also, WP:C2C because the subcategories are all titled "Baseball players from...". For example, "Category:Baseball players from New York City". Its the standard form. Omnis Scientia (talk) 18:44, 23 May 2024 (UTC)
- So I think part of the confusion is that there are multiple elements at play for each of the noms. Omnis it might help if you went through the noms to provide an example for each type. For just looking, I can see city or town -> populated place; moving the stems to the end, and changing people in city in COUNTRY to FOOian people. Aalthough I do agree that c2c does apply, it's a lot to unpack. Mason (talk) 20:48, 23 May 2024 (UTC)
- @Smasongarrison, well there are two basic changes. One is moving the split to the end. The other is bringing them all to one form which is "Baseball players from Foo". I will list one from each category:
- U.S.: Category:Baseball players from New York City
- Taiwan: Category:Baseball players from Taipei
- South Korea: Category:Baseball players from Seoul
- Puerto Rico: Category:Baseball players from San Juan, Puerto Rico
- Canada: Category:Baseball players from Toronto
- Australia: Category:Baseball players from Melbourne
- Mexico: Category:Baseball players from Mexico City
- I hope this clears up any confusion. Omnis Scientia (talk) 21:04, 23 May 2024 (UTC)
- @Armbrust, would appreciate a reply so this can either go through or go to full Cfd. Omnis Scientia (talk) 19:26, 24 May 2024 (UTC)
- The overwhelming majority of subcategories in Category:Sportspeople by country and populated place uses the “SPORTSPLAYER by city or town in COUNTRY” format (if it’s not about a specific location) and not the one proposed above. I’m not opposed to replacing “city or town” with “populated place”, but IMO rearranging the title of the categories shouldn’t be done speedily. Armbrust The Homunculus 22:32, 24 May 2024 (UTC)
- @Armbrust, in which case they all should change. I will wait for the opinion of @Smasongarrison though before I go through with it since split should be at the end. Omnis Scientia (talk) 22:58, 24 May 2024 (UTC)
- @Marcocapelle, should I take this to full Cfd or does the previous Cfd on "by populated place" apply here? Omnis Scientia (talk) 23:00, 24 May 2024 (UTC)
- It's in line with others changes to actors etc. But a full cfd would allow us to do them all at once. 🤷 Mason (talk) 23:18, 24 May 2024 (UTC)
- @Omnis Scientia: the outcome of a previous CfD isn't necessarily a speedy criterion. It only counts if a clear majority of categories were tackled in that CfD. Besides, considering the amount of discussion we already had here, I would take this to full CfD anyway. Marcocapelle (talk) 08:25, 25 May 2024 (UTC)
- @Smasongarrison, @Marcocapelle, thank you. Will do so. Omnis Scientia (talk) 09:22, 25 May 2024 (UTC)
- And I realize the form should actually be "Fooian sportspeople by populated place" so I can adjust accordingly there too. Omnis Scientia (talk) 09:32, 25 May 2024 (UTC)
- The overwhelming majority of subcategories in Category:Sportspeople by country and populated place uses the “SPORTSPLAYER by city or town in COUNTRY” format (if it’s not about a specific location) and not the one proposed above. I’m not opposed to replacing “city or town” with “populated place”, but IMO rearranging the title of the categories shouldn’t be done speedily. Armbrust The Homunculus 22:32, 24 May 2024 (UTC)
- @Armbrust, would appreciate a reply so this can either go through or go to full Cfd. Omnis Scientia (talk) 19:26, 24 May 2024 (UTC)
- @Smasongarrison, well there are two basic changes. One is moving the split to the end. The other is bringing them all to one form which is "Baseball players from Foo". I will list one from each category:
- So I think part of the confusion is that there are multiple elements at play for each of the noms. Omnis it might help if you went through the noms to provide an example for each type. For just looking, I can see city or town -> populated place; moving the stems to the end, and changing people in city in COUNTRY to FOOian people. Aalthough I do agree that c2c does apply, it's a lot to unpack. Mason (talk) 20:48, 23 May 2024 (UTC)
- @Armbrust, clarify what precisely? The split should be at the end and the recent Cfd is that "by city and town" in categories, as @Smasongarrison will note, is now "by populated place". Also, WP:C2C because the subcategories are all titled "Baseball players from...". For example, "Category:Baseball players from New York City". Its the standard form. Omnis Scientia (talk) 18:44, 23 May 2024 (UTC)
- C2C to what? Oppose until clarified. Armbrust The Homunculus 15:54, 22 May 2024 (UTC)
- Category:United States politicians killed during the Civil War to Category:Politicians killed in the American Civil War - this new name is shorter and less ambiguous, as the category lists both Union and Confederate politicians who died in the ACW. AHI-3000 (talk) 03:10, 24 April 2024 (UTC)
- Whereas the argument is compelling, I do not think this is a speedy case. Ymblanter (talk) 21:11, 26 April 2024 (UTC)
- @Ymblanter: So why is this not suited for speedy renaming? AHI-3000 (talk) 03:26, 29 April 2024 (UTC)
- It should satisfy to one of the above criteria, and I can not see which one. Ymblanter (talk) 05:22, 29 April 2024 (UTC)
- @Ymblanter: So why is this not suited for speedy renaming? AHI-3000 (talk) 03:26, 29 April 2024 (UTC)
- Moved to full discussion. Marcocapelle (talk) 09:10, 14 May 2024 (UTC)
- Whereas the argument is compelling, I do not think this is a speedy case. Ymblanter (talk) 21:11, 26 April 2024 (UTC)
- Category:Rebel princes to Category:Princely rebellions – C2D: Princely rebellion. NLeeuw (talk) 10:23, 8 May 2024 (UTC)
- Oppose, this is a category of princes, not so much of rebellions. Perhaps split. Marcocapelle (talk) 13:31, 8 May 2024 (UTC)
- Maybe. Move to full then I guess? NLeeuw (talk) 22:42, 9 May 2024 (UTC)
- Oppose, this is a category of princes, not so much of rebellions. Perhaps split. Marcocapelle (talk) 13:31, 8 May 2024 (UTC)
- Category:Neo-Latin writers to Category:Writers in Neo-Latin – C2C: Per all child cats and per parent Category:Writers in Latin by period. NLeeuw (talk) 01:01, 2 April 2024 (UTC)
- Oppose This is not very natural language. It is inconsistent with the same level categories "Classical Latin-language writers", "Latin-language writers of late antiquity", "Medieval Latin-language writers", "Old Latin-language writers", and "Renaissance Latin-language writers".
- This is because "Neo-Latin" etc are actually styles, that are associated with a period. Jim Killock (talk) 05:42, 2 April 2024 (UTC)
- Category:Latin-language writers of late antiquity to Category:Writers of late antiquity in Latin – C2C: Per all child cats and per parent Category:Writers in Latin by period. NLeeuw (talk) 00:57, 2 April 2024 (UTC)
- Oppose Very clumsy sounding Jim Killock (talk) 05:44, 2 April 2024 (UTC)
- Category:Classical Latin-language writers to Category:Writers in Classical Latin – C2C: Parent Category:Writers in Latin by period. NLeeuw (talk) 00:54, 2 April 2024 (UTC)
- Oppose Very clumsy sounding Jim Killock (talk) 05:44, 2 April 2024 (UTC)
- Category:Old Latin-language writers to Category:Writers in Old Latin – C2C: Per all child cats and per parent Category:Writers in Latin by period. NLeeuw (talk) 00:44, 2 April 2024 (UTC)
- Oppose Sounds clumsy. Same Jim Killock (talk) 05:43, 2 April 2024 (UTC)
- Category:Renaissance Latin-language writers to Category:Renaissance writers in Latin – C2C: Per all child cats and per parent Category:Writers in Latin by period. NLeeuw (talk) 00:42, 2 April 2024 (UTC)
- Oppose Sounds weird per others Jim Killock (talk) 05:44, 2 April 2024 (UTC)
- Category:Medieval Latin-language writers to Category:Medieval writers in Latin – C2C: Per all child cats and per parent Category:Writers in Latin by period. NLeeuw (talk) 00:39, 2 April 2024 (UTC)
- Oppose Same Jim Killock (talk) 05:42, 2 April 2024 (UTC)
- Oppose Same. These sound weird. Jim Killock (talk) 05:43, 2 April 2024 (UTC)
- @JimKillock The parent Category:Writers in Latin by period and grandparent Category:Writers in Latin and other related categories were all renamed by consensus last year: Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2023 October 7#Category:Latin-language writers. These are just logical follow-ups to that result. The reason we went for this formula is explained at length in that nom. NLeeuw (talk) 15:49, 2 April 2024 (UTC)
- But these are not "by period"; they are "by style". This especially true for Neo-Latin. The periods and styles often coincide, but not precisely. Better would be to follow the styles defined in the articles, so:
- I've explained elsewhere that the periods and styles are not precise. For instance, a writer in the Renaissance may have employed Medieval Latin, or Renaissance Latin; and some may define their Renaissance Latin as Neo-Latin. These are stylistic boundaries which roughly match period, but it is the style, not the period, that determines their classifications. Jim Killock (talk) 19:50, 2 April 2024 (UTC)
- @JimKillock I know. Category:14th-century Neo-Latin writers were a thing; it's good that you created that category. But I don't see how it would create a problem if we renamed it Category:14th-century writers in Neo-Latin. If anything, it is even clearer that "14th-century" refers to "writers" and not to "Neo-Latin", so that we shouldn't assume that the kind of Latin they wrote was Medieval Latin. This is all the more reason in favour of renaming, so that our readers understand the difference between style and period. NLeeuw (talk) 14:03, 4 April 2024 (UTC)
- The issue is that the whole category structure is used to amalgamate and conflate these two ideas. I don't have an easy solution to it, that doesn't involve some work. It's reasonable to say that a C12th Medieval Latin writer used Medieval Latin, or a C20th writer uses Neo-Latin. Boundary centuries seem debateable. However, the structure makes an absolute assumption, that century and style are the same, except where I started to break it up. This has come up in two recent discussions, the other being when someone wanted to remove my boundary category. But it's clear that the intention was that Category:Classical Latin-language writers should contain Classical Latin writers, ie be a style category, not a time category. Likewise, Late Latin and Neo-Latin. There can be doubt about medieval Latin because of it seems to refer to a period rather than a style; however as it is a set of style categories we should assume it is about style, likewise for Renaissance Latin. The fact that the categories group information from centuries is a laziness, nothing more. In short it is a mess but it is only made worse by changing the names to appear to refer to time periods, some of which don't really exist (Classical Latin isn't a time, nor is Latin Latin, nor is Neo-Latin).
- Category:Writers in Classical Latin; Category:Writers in Neo-Latin - these all refer to a style; they are acceptable from that perspective, but they sounds strange / clumsy to my ear; the natural way to say is Category:Classical Latin writers, Category:Neo-Latin writers, or as close to that as WP allows.
- Taking one example to show why the suggested formulation can sound wrong. Category:Writers in Old Latin; Old Latin is recognised as a phase of Latin, rather than a "style" of Latin, so a bit different, but it functions the same. It is like Old English, not quite the same as Modern English. So, "writers in Old Latin" doesn't work because You [verb] in [language]; you don't [person] in [language]. It is either People writing in Old Latin or Old Latin writers. So Category:Old Latin writers sounds better, another option would be Category:Writers using Old Latin.
- Category:Renaissance writers in Latin; Category:Medieval writers in Latin - refer to a time period and remove the style names. These would need to be Category:Writers in Renaissance Latin; Category:Writers in Medieval Latin. This is not great English, most natural would be Category:Medieval Latin writers, Category: Renaissance Latin writers
- So there seems to be some inconsistency of approach in the current suggestion, as well as a somewhat clumsy use of "in" that isn't needed.
- It has taken me some time to pinpoint the issue with "in"; but I think it is because language can be either a noun or an adjective. When it is a style, describing how someone writes, "Classical Latin" etc, is an adjective. If "Classical Latin" is an adjective, then "in" shouldn't be used. If "Classical Latin" is a noun, as with "Classical Latin" the topic then "in" is possible, eg "Grammar in Classical Latin", or "They write in Classical Latin". As an adjective, it works as "Classical Latin writers". --Jim Killock (talk) 00:59, 6 April 2024 (UTC)
- I suppose this will have to be moved to full then... NLeeuw (talk) 13:42, 11 April 2024 (UTC)
- @JimKillock I know. Category:14th-century Neo-Latin writers were a thing; it's good that you created that category. But I don't see how it would create a problem if we renamed it Category:14th-century writers in Neo-Latin. If anything, it is even clearer that "14th-century" refers to "writers" and not to "Neo-Latin", so that we shouldn't assume that the kind of Latin they wrote was Medieval Latin. This is all the more reason in favour of renaming, so that our readers understand the difference between style and period. NLeeuw (talk) 14:03, 4 April 2024 (UTC)
- @JimKillock The parent Category:Writers in Latin by period and grandparent Category:Writers in Latin and other related categories were all renamed by consensus last year: Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2023 October 7#Category:Latin-language writers. These are just logical follow-ups to that result. The reason we went for this formula is explained at length in that nom. NLeeuw (talk) 15:49, 2 April 2024 (UTC)
- Category:Scholars of Mycenaean Greek to Category:Linguists of Mycenaean Greek – C2C: Uncles/aunts in Category:Linguists by language of study are all named
Linguists of Fooian
. NLeeuw (talk) 20:47, 3 April 2024 (UTC) - Category:Scholars of Medieval Greek to Category:Linguists of Medieval Greek – C2C: Uncles/aunts in Category:Linguists by language of study are all named
Linguists of Fooian
. NLeeuw (talk) 20:46, 3 April 2024 (UTC) - Category:Scholars of Koine Greek to Category:Linguists of Koine Greek – C2C: Uncles/aunts in Category:Linguists by language of study are all named
Linguists of Fooian
. NLeeuw (talk) 20:46, 3 April 2024 (UTC) - Category:Scholars of Ancient Greek to Category:Linguists of Ancient Greek – C2C: Uncles/aunts in Category:Linguists by language of study are all named
Linguists of Fooian
. NLeeuw (talk) 20:45, 3 April 2024 (UTC) - Category:Scholars of Greek language to Category:Linguists of Greek – C2C: Siblings in Category:Linguists by language of study are all named
Linguists of Fooian
. NLeeuw (talk) 20:44, 3 April 2024 (UTC)- Comment Nederlandse Leeuw, I don't think the categories for Scholars of Greek are suitable for speedy renaming as the categories contain a mixture of scholars of Greek language and literature. Also Latin is the other classical language and there is no Category:Linguists of Latin. TSventon (talk) 22:21, 3 April 2024 (UTC)
- @TSventon I discussed thus with @Fayenatic london in another thread (about Category:Grammarians of Persian), he thought it was a good idea. It's virtually impossible to study the literature of a language without also studying the language itself. (I've been studying Old East Slavic as an amateur lately, because I want to write about Rus' chronicles on Wikipedia). Also, Category:Latinists exists; it currently serves the same function as a Category:Linguists of Latin would. NLeeuw (talk) 02:50, 4 April 2024 (UTC)
- Nederlandse Leeuw, I have looked at the content of the categories and am suggesting that these categories are not suitable for speedy renaming. I am happy for the CfD admins to accept or reject my argument. Studying the literature of a language generally involves studying the language itself, but some academics focus more on literature and others on liguistic topics and this is reflected in our categories. Category:Latinists exists and has a Greek counterpart, Category:Hellenists. TSventon (talk) 14:21, 4 April 2024 (UTC)
- Okay. I'm not convinced this makes them unsuitable for speedy renaming, but we'll see. Otherwise I'm happy to move to full, although I think it's unnecessary. NLeeuw (talk) 14:24, 4 April 2024 (UTC)
- I think this kind of discussion is better held at a full CfD than here. Ymblanter (talk) 19:43, 4 April 2024 (UTC)
- Okay. I'm not convinced this makes them unsuitable for speedy renaming, but we'll see. Otherwise I'm happy to move to full, although I think it's unnecessary. NLeeuw (talk) 14:24, 4 April 2024 (UTC)
- Nederlandse Leeuw, I have looked at the content of the categories and am suggesting that these categories are not suitable for speedy renaming. I am happy for the CfD admins to accept or reject my argument. Studying the literature of a language generally involves studying the language itself, but some academics focus more on literature and others on liguistic topics and this is reflected in our categories. Category:Latinists exists and has a Greek counterpart, Category:Hellenists. TSventon (talk) 14:21, 4 April 2024 (UTC)
- @TSventon I discussed thus with @Fayenatic london in another thread (about Category:Grammarians of Persian), he thought it was a good idea. It's virtually impossible to study the literature of a language without also studying the language itself. (I've been studying Old East Slavic as an amateur lately, because I want to write about Rus' chronicles on Wikipedia). Also, Category:Latinists exists; it currently serves the same function as a Category:Linguists of Latin would. NLeeuw (talk) 02:50, 4 April 2024 (UTC)
- Comment Nederlandse Leeuw, I don't think the categories for Scholars of Greek are suitable for speedy renaming as the categories contain a mixture of scholars of Greek language and literature. Also Latin is the other classical language and there is no Category:Linguists of Latin. TSventon (talk) 22:21, 3 April 2024 (UTC)
PLEASE NOTE: I have moved all of the following Categories here pending adequate confirmation of their eligibility under C2C. I made a serious effort to look for that, but was unable to find such confirmation. There is a massive jumbled welter of Categories in this realm, with no prevailing pattern that I can discern. Anomalous+0 (talk) 07:16, 19 March 2024 (UTC)
- @Anomalous+0, I have linked Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2023 December 10#Container categories by descent down below; is that not enough? 1234qwer1234qwer4 21:02, 27 March 2024 (UTC)
- Category:Canadian musicians by ethnic or national origin to Category:Canadian musicians by descent – C2C. 1234qwer1234qwer4 18:10, 17 March 2024 (UTC)
- Category:Canadian people by ethnic or national origin and century to Category:Canadian people by descent and century – C2C. 1234qwer1234qwer4 18:09, 17 March 2024 (UTC)
- Category:Romanian people by ethnic or national origin and occupation to Category:Romanian people by descent and occupation – C2C. 1234qwer1234qwer4 18:09, 17 March 2024 (UTC)
- Category:Northern Mariana Islands people by ethnic or national origin to Category:Northern Mariana Islands people by descent – C2C. 1234qwer1234qwer4 18:09, 17 March 2024 (UTC)
- Category:Malaysian politicians by ethnic or national origin to Category:Malaysian politicians by descent – C2C. 1234qwer1234qwer4 18:07, 17 March 2024 (UTC)
- Category:French politicians by ethnic or national origin to Category:French politicians by descent – C2C. 1234qwer1234qwer4 18:07, 17 March 2024 (UTC)
- Category:Dutch politicians by ethnic or national origin to Category:Dutch politicians by descent – C2C. 1234qwer1234qwer4 18:07, 17 March 2024 (UTC)
- Category:Transnistrian people by ethnic or national origin to Category:Transnistrian people by descent – C2C. 1234qwer1234qwer4 18:07, 17 March 2024 (UTC)
- Category:Filipino politicians by ethnic or national origin to Category:Filipino politicians by descent – C2C. 1234qwer1234qwer4 18:06, 17 March 2024 (UTC)
- Category:Moldovan politicians by ethnic or national origin to Category:Moldovan politicians by descent – C2C. 1234qwer1234qwer4 18:06, 17 March 2024 (UTC)
- Category:Cebuano people by ethnic or national origin to Category:Cebuano people by descent – C2C. 1234qwer1234qwer4 18:06, 17 March 2024 (UTC)
- Category:Indonesian politicians by ethnic or national origin to Category:Indonesian politicians by descent – C2C. 1234qwer1234qwer4 18:05, 17 March 2024 (UTC)
- Category:Romanian politicians by ethnic or national origin to Category:Romanian politicians by descent – C2C. 1234qwer1234qwer4 18:03, 17 March 2024 (UTC)
- Category:Canadian writers by ethnic or national origin to Category:Canadian writers by descent – C2C. 1234qwer1234qwer4 18:01, 17 March 2024 (UTC)
- Category:Canadian families by ethnic or national origin to Category:Canadian families by descent – C2C. 1234qwer1234qwer4 18:00, 17 March 2024 (UTC)
- Category:British writers by ethnic or national origin to Category:British writers by descent – C2C. 1234qwer1234qwer4 17:55, 17 March 2024 (UTC)
- Oppose for now to all by ethnic or national origin nominations. 46.229.243.187 (talk) 08:35, 27 March 2024 (UTC)
- Your opposition needs to have a reason. Mason (talk) 13:55, 27 March 2024 (UTC)
- The existing wording sounds more natural and is easier to understand. 46.229.243.187 (talk) 14:34, 27 March 2024 (UTC)
- Moved to full discussion:
- Wikipedia:Categories_for_discussion/Log/2024_March_30#Category:English_people_by_ethnic_or_national_origin
- Wikipedia:Categories_for_discussion/Log/2024_April_9#Category:Swedish_politicians_by_ethnic_or_national_origin
- Wikipedia:Categories_for_discussion/Log/2024_April_27#British_people_by_descent
- Wikipedia:Categories_for_discussion/Log/2024_May_6#Actors_by_ethnicity
- Wikipedia:Categories_for_discussion/Log/2024_May_7#People_from_British_Overseas_Territories_and_Crown_Dependencies_by_ethnic_or_national_origin
- Wikipedia:Categories_for_discussion/Log/2024_May_8#People_from_Overseas_France_by_ethnic_or_national_origin
- Wikipedia:Categories_for_discussion/Log/2024_May_9#Caribbean_people_by_descent
- Wikipedia:Categories_for_discussion/Log/2024_May_17#Category:Romanian_people_by_ethnic_or_national_origin_and_occupation
- Wikipedia:Categories_for_discussion/Log/2024_May_17#Category:Northern_Mariana_Islands_people_by_ethnic_or_national_origin
- Wikipedia:Categories_for_discussion/Log/2024_May_17#Category:East_German_people_by_ethnic_or_national_origin
- Marcocapelle (talk) 06:53, 27 April 2024 (UTC)
- The English one was closed as Rename. – Fayenatic London 12:11, 27 April 2024 (UTC)
- Except in the United States, the "by descent" format seems to be standard everywhere. Marcocapelle (talk) 10:16, 7 May 2024 (UTC)
- Oppose for now to all by ethnic or national origin nominations. 46.229.243.187 (talk) 08:35, 27 March 2024 (UTC)
Ready for deletion
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