Talk:Omar Khadr

correction

These three edits were described as fixing errors, but actually introduced some new assertions at odds with what I have read.

The article now says: Human Concern International was a Canadian charity. Actually Human Concern International is still extant. And it is a British charity. Further, Ahmed Said Khadr, was not an employee -- so far as I can determine, during the half dozen or so years he worked for them he remained a volunteer. HCI says he was a volunteer, not an employee.

I believe it was a mistake to remove the reference to the 2002 National Post article. When I first introduced this reference three years ago, I was not aware that linking to mirrors of articles that did not show they were authorized by the copyright holder was counter to policy. So the URL http://www.hvk.org/articles/1202/293.html should not be used in the reference. However, it is counter to policy to remove references that contain title, publication, author, date of publication. So I am replacing it, just changing it from {{cite news}} to {{cite paper}}. Geo Swan (talk) 04:15, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

• Isabel Vincent (December 28 2002). "The Good Son". National Post. {{cite journal}}: Check date values in: |date= (help); Cite journal requires |journal= (help)

There is another edit I have problems with. Contributor's edit summary said: Incarceration at Guantánamo Bay - since there seem to be conflicting arguments on this, this statement should be directly sourced. I am completely mystified on what possible basis this contributor asserts "there are conflicting arguments" on whether Omar Khadr was treated as an adult in spite of being fifteen years old when captured. The identity of the three boys held in Camp Iguana is well known. The other two dozen minors were all treated as adults. Geo Swan (talk) 04:23, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

• • "Mystified?" Perhaps it would help to read the section as it currently is written to clear up any mystification:

Bryan Del Monte, the United States Department of Defense deputy director for political development and international issues in the Office of Detainee Affairs, gave a press conference following his return from testifying before the United Nations Committee against torture. [16] During this press conference he asserted that Khadr, and two other youths, were incarcerated separately from adults, The question is not Khadr's age when captured; it is whether he has been treated as a minor or as an adult in captivity. That is the statement that needs citation as it appears, as per the current edits, that there is a discrepancy between what human rights activists/Khadr's lawyers claim and what the US government claims. Holding Khadr separately from adults denotes separate treatment from adults. So, the claim that "However, Khadr was treated as an adult" needs sourcing. Without either reference or qualifiers, it is either a {POV} mistake or another factual misinterpretation. BWH76 (talk) 01:13, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

Simple. Del Monte was not telling the truth. It is well documented that all three of the teenage boys who had been held in Camp Iguana, since you read the references to them I am, again, mystified as to how you could possibly suggest that Khadr was also held there, continued to be held there, after that camp was shut down, when the three boys who were held there, Naqibullah, Muhammad Ismail Agha and Asadullah Abdul Rahman were released on January 29 2004. Geo Swan (talk) 04:44, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

• • "Del Monte was not telling the truth." That is a strong, strong accusation. What is your source for this accusation? Or is this your interpretation of events? Unless there is a specific reference making this accusation, it is quite clear that there is an obvious {POV} concern.

As for this focus on Camp Iguana: I'm not sure exactly how I can make this more clear - the question is not about where he was held, but how he was treated.

You state that you are "mystified as to how you could possibly suggest that Khadr was also held there." Please specifically point out where I've made any sort of claim where Khadr was held. I have not made any edits nor mentioned any concerns as to where Khadr has been held. The concerns I raised are:

1) That one child detainee stated that "the two years he spent there were the only education he had ever had, and he reported being sorry to leave." What is the source for these claims? It is not the BBC articles referenced - there are no such claims in those articles. Who said that "it was the only education he ever had?" Who said that anyone was "sorry to leave?" Where are the references for these two claims?

2) "Khadr was treated as an adult." If there is any discrepancy between what human rights groups/Khadr's lawyers state and what the US government states in how Khadr was treated, then no one can definitively state that he was "treated as an adult" without violating {POV}. By stating one side is correct and that the other is lying, without independent third-party sources as references, clearly demonstrates a biased point of view and original research. BWH76 (talk) 08:37, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

Allow me to point out that there is a difference between stating that someone is not telling the truth, and calling them a liar. People utter untruths all the time: (1) because they were misinformed; (2) because they were suffered a failure of memory; (3) because they didn't understand their briefing -- even though the briefing may have been accurate. I didn't state a motive for why Del Monte was recorded stating something that was untrue. I don't think I owe anyone a retraction for calling Del Monte a liar, when I never called him a liar. I don't think I owe anyone an apology for stating that what he said wasn't true -- when no one can claim what he said was true.

The discussion above sets out a false dichotomy between the claims of human rights workers and the assertions of DoD officials. The article says Del Monte's assertion is at odds with other accounts. Those other accounts include other DoD accounts. Geo Swan (talk) 02:31, 21 January 2008 (UTC)

Military authorities say the only juveniles at the detention center were the three who were kept in a separate facility from the main prison camp with more freedom and activities. They were released in January 2004.

The so-called "human rights" groups are making too much out of this.

The AR-190-8 Army regulations on handling detainees set 15 as the age where they no longer need special treatment. (See: 6-2.(4)) He wasn't a kid anymore, and so he can eat and sleep like an adult.

It was updated in 1997. They didn't just make that up.

-- Randy2063 (talk) 03:36, 6 February 2008 (UTC)

Time in Bagram

We have nothing on his months spent at Bagram right now. I think it's notable that Moazzam Begg's book Enemy Combatant says that Khadr was singled out for extensive work duties by the soldiers who called him "Buckshot Bob" and and referred to him as being a murderer.[1] Sherurcij ^{(Speaker for the Dead)} 23:13, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

Not exactly a credible source.

-- Randy2063 (talk) 03:39, 6 February 2008 (UTC)

Why wouldn't a book published by Simon & Schuster be considered a reliable source? Sherurcij ^{(Speaker for the Dead)} 05:01, 6 February 2008 (UTC)

Simon & Schuster isn't vouching for his integrity. Do you think they put a polygraph on him?

If you want to say "Moazzam Begg claims" then that's something else, but we've got plenty of that already. If there's really something to this, you ought to be able to find a better source than the likes of Begg. It's likely that people are dead because of him.

Every fascist who's been detained claims he was tortured. Even the hunger-striking Islamists that the Canadians detained say that. Eventually you'll want an objective source.

-- Randy2063 (talk) 05:57, 6 February 2008 (UTC)

Speaking of wanting a source, do you have a source for claiming that people are dead because of Begg? I seem to recall him being released without charge - and rather than blowing up a supermarket, he published a book and is a civil rights activist. Even if it were true that he had blood on his hands, why does that make him any less authoritative of an authority of what happened in Bagram than anybody else? Would you not trust the word of any American soldier at Bagram who had killed an Afghan? Nobody has disputed Begg's claims, and they certainly don't seem even vaguely ludicrous. It's not like he's claiming something controversial, like Khadr was set ablaze or something, he's stating that Khadr was called names and given extra work duty...if you can find a veritable source (ie, an officer from Bagram, a senior ranking administrative officer, another inmate or some such) who disputes the claim, I'd be happy to include mention of that. But as it stands "omg, a Muslim claims it's true, it could be a lie!" sounds more like patent racism and trying to denigrate Begg's book. I've not read any reports that anything in Begg's book is a lie, so there is no reason to assume this is. Sherurcij ^{(Speaker for the Dead)} 06:25, 6 February 2008 (UTC)

That bogus "racism" label isn't going to help you. You ought to know by now that there's a difference between Islam and Islamic extremism.

Being released without charge only means they didn't have a charge for him. Although some of his pre-GTMO activities were shady, and contributed to the jihad ("a sympathizer, a recruiter and a financier"), it would have meant years of stalling tactics, and they probably believed he wasn't worth it. (Note that the link quotes someone who doubts his veracity.)

But my comment was about his post-GTMO appearances as a so-called "civil rights" activist telling naive Muslims that this is a war against Islam itself. He doesn't personally tell them they need to grab a suicide vest but at least one of the films he appears in ("21st Century CrUSAders") is itself clearly a call to arms.

It was probably seen by the 2005 London bombers. (It's known with certainty that those bombers watched films like it, but we don't have the full list.) It, and others, were distributed all over the world. Some jihadis in Iraq were indoctrinated with it. And if you ever see it yourself, please note that Begg never tells his fascist friends that they need to respect the Geneva Conventions.

If you ever venture into his old bookstore, be sure to pick up the pamphlet on "the best way to kill homosexuals." Seriously, no one who supports this guy ever cared about "civil rights".

But if you want to quote him as some kind of authority, then please go right ahead. The more these articles are pumped up with glaringly obvious agit-prop, the more complete a picture we get of the critics of the war. They never tell their friends either that they need to respect the Geneva Conventions.

-- Randy2063 (talk) 17:26, 6 February 2008 (UTC)

You're now attributing the books for sale in a store where his work is for sale to him? I mean, he may be Islamist, but to suggest that he's responsible for what others have written seems counter-intuitive to your other point. The link says nothing about Begg owning the shop, managing the shop or even working as a clerk at the shop, it says the shop sells work by Begg, and that it sells works about killing homosexuals. The military interrogator in your quoted article describes him as "We compared him to somebody who went off to Spain during the civil war — more of a romantic than some sort of ideologically steeled fighter." - so that puts him roughly on the level of Lord Byron, should we refuse to accept Byron's accounts of the Greek War of Independence, stating that he's basically a terrorist because of it and "people are surely dead because of him"? Begg may not be a saint, but there is nothing to suggest that his accounts of meeting Khadr at Bagram are untrue. Sherurcij ^{(Speaker for the Dead)} 17:45, 6 February 2008 (UTC)

Begg is a former owner of the store. Nothing indicates a change from when he was there before. If a bookstore owner chooses to stock a wide variety of books then we might say he's interested in having a wide variety. It wouldn't mean he likes every single book. If he serves only a narrow interest then that says something else. It would be like a small Christian bookstore stocking The Turner Diaries but none of the moderate Christian books. Do you really think that wouldn't be a concern? We make distinctions between bookstores that stock some explicit books on sex, and those that stock only pornography, and then further, those that include kiddie porn. The fact that Begg commissioned and published Dhiren Barot's book tells us quite a bit about him.

Byron's war experiences were from before the GCs, but I doubt he'd have supported a movement that works the way al Qaeda does. If he did, that would be notable, and nothing he said could be taken as fact without checking other sources.

-- Randy2063 (talk) 18:28, 6 February 2008 (UTC)

Come to think of it, I doubt that historians study Lord Byron's diaries without taking his bias into account.

-- Randy2063 (talk) 18:33, 6 February 2008 (UTC)

And that's why we cite where the reference to "Buckshot Bob" is from, so that interested people can look up Moazzam Begg and see who he is. But that doesn't mean that we say "Probably an Islamist terrorist himself, Begg claimed without any verification from American sources, that Khadr was called Buckshot Bob". If the owner of a TD-peddling Christian book store owner told me that homosexuality causes cancer, or that he saw the FBI murder a puppy, I might not believe him and would agree with you that his "somewhat incredulous claims" should be tempered. But if the same guy just told me that he had mailed a letter to Timothy McVeigh three years before the bombing, I'd probably take his word for it. If Begg were claiming that Khadr was disfigured from his daily sessions having hot coals applied to his genitals, we'd temper the claim. But the simple claim that he had a nickname among guards there, and did some manual labour, doesn't seem to border on the "ridiculous" statements that could've been made - or the ones that are directly contradicted by other facts. In short, with absolutely no reason to believe that a claim is likely to be fabriated, there's no reason to allege that an ad hominem attack against the author of the claim should be given any weight. I'm pretty much done with this argument, unless other editors with a history of editing this article (Geo Swan, BWH) come forward and agree with you that we shouldn't trust anything Begg says - then I think I'm done with this train of thought.

P.S. even your new link doesn't support your argument that Begg owns/owned the bookstore, in fact it doesn't even mention him - it just talks about the bookstore. But that's irrelevant. Sherurcij ^{(Speaker for the Dead)} 19:02, 6 February 2008 (UTC)

The second link was to show what the bookstore hasn't changed much since back when he owned it. There are other sources that say he was a co-owner at the time, and I didn't think it worth documenting in a talk page. He even admits to it. The relevant part is that Begg has a history of consorting with violent extremists. He is not a trustworthy source.

Your comparison to someone mailing a letter to McVeigh before the bombing is apt but it makes my case more than yours. There isn't much of a problem saying he had a nickname, but saying he "was singled out for extensive work duties" tracks with the common torture theme they're pushing. It's as likely to have fabricated as it is to be true. The fact that such an action could sound reasonable doesn't change that the story is coming from a worm like Moazzam Begg.

But go ahead and add it if you like. Just be sure that everyone knows the only source is a friend of terror. He certainly isn't a "civil rights" activist.

-- Randy2063 (talk) 19:58, 6 February 2008 (UTC)

I suspect nicknames were common, both for referring to fellow GIs, and for captives. IIRC Dilawar was "Timmy" (as per South Park(?)). One of Clive Stafford Smith clients, one who was mentally ill, was "The General". We know that Iraqi "ghost prisoner" was "Triple-X".

Both Abu Qatada and Moazzam Begg called on kidnappers to free their western captives. It could be argued that Abu Qatada's entreaty to free hostages was disinenguous and self-serving, because he was in custody in the UK, fighting extradition. But Begg had already been released. Doesn't that suggest he was sincere? What ulterior motive could he have had?

As to Khadr being called a "murderer". A couple of years ago camp authorities seemed to be experimenting with letting JTF-GTMO staff be interviewed. I saw the BBC pose a couple of questions to a young guard.

1. He first complained that guards weren't given enough scope to respond to captives who spat on them.
2. Then he paused a couple of seconds, and said, Half of these guys killed a US soldier you know.

My reading of the transcripts is that Khadr is the only captive who could have been accused of killing a GI. At the time of his comment US losses in Afghanistan was about 200. (It is about 400 now.) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Geo Swan (talk • contribs) 23:52, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

I could argue that Begg was just doing smart PR when pleading for those hostages to be freed but even that's not the case here. Those particular hostages are vehement critics of the U.S., and they're very sympathetic to the terrorists. A Muslim Brotherhood leader also pleaded for their release, calling their organization an ally against Israel. So, it's quite natural for Begg to have joined him.

I'm sure most of the guards at GTMO haven't read the dossiers of the detainees, and they just make assumptions. A lot of anti-GTMO critics think the U.S. waterboarded detainees at GTMO.

-- Randy2063 (talk) 05:24, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

The Firefight

It's described as a six-man team that entered the "mud compound", isn't it? So that's Christopher Speer, Special Forces Sgt. Layne Morris, Scott Hansen (who was awarded a Bronze Star for his actions during the firefight), Major Mike Silver and...two unknowns?

Also, it's worth noting that Mike Silver reported in April 2007 that ""I came to a wall, heard a noise that sounded like a gunshot," when the troops moved towards the house, just before the grenade appeared. I don't want OR in the article, but the talk page is a good place for speculating on how that fits into the accidentally-released testimony of "OC-1" that he entered the building, took "directed" fire and saw a grenade appear, then shot the unknown Muja and then shot the kneeling Khadr. If we assume that the "general story" is correct as given in that link which seemed to interview the soldiers involved, and only the presence of another survivor with a rifle was covered up, it sounds like OC-1 couldn't have been Speer (obviously), Silver or Hansen (who were both outside, and Silver describes two soldiers "in front of him" as shooting.). Sherurcij ^{(Speaker for the Dead)} 21:36, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

Looking at it, we see Silver mention that "Three Delta Force" soldiers entered, followed by him, followed by Speer. (Morris had been medEvaced at that point, so only the five of them left). Of the five remaining people, who could those first three have been? Obviously Morris, Silver and Speer are out, which leaves Hansen and the two "unknowns". However, Hansen is not Delta Force, he's attached to the 19th Special Forces Group. Assuming it is indeed a six-man crew that set out (+2 interpreters), then I would simply assume that the Toronto Star and/or Silver misspoke and mistakenly identified Hansen as being Delta Force. I think it's safe to assume that Hansen and the two unknowns entered the compound, while Silver and Speer remained behind them, after Morris had been airlifted. Of course, the "accidentally released report" insisted that three names not be identified, and we seem to only be dealing with two unknown soldiers here - aren't we? (Who may or may not be Delta Force, since Silver's quote already screwed up its identification of Hansen). Sherurcij ^{(Speaker for the Dead)} 22:35, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

Interesting to note that as of November 07, Worthington had referred to Five men being inside the compound, while only three bodies were reported being initially seen upon entering the compound by Captain/Major Mike Silver. This accounts for the missing Mujahideen who survived the bombed and fired his rifle at the American soldiers after they entered the compound. Sherurcij ^{(Speaker for the Dead)} 22:59, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

Also note that Worthington says that Khadr was tended by the unit's medic, implying someone who was present during the firefight. Since Speer was billed as the "medic" in the media, I'm not sure if one of the four remaining soldiers treated him, or they left him while waiting for reinforcements who brought a medic. Also note that if it was one of the four remaining soldiers who patched him up, then that means the unnamed Sergeant who gives the quote is either Hansen (A Master Sgt, tsk) or one of the two unidentified soldiers, giving us a rank.Sherurcij ^{(Speaker for the Dead)} 23:16, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

Worthington mentions Khadr was shot by an "M4", which made me assume we were discussing an M4A1, but finding out that he was "Buckshot Bob" at Bagram, I wonder if perhaps he was shot with a Benelli M4 instead. Any of the documentation mention his wounds? "bullet holes" in his chest implies it was the carbine, but Buckshot Bob implies the shotgun - it would actually make a difference since the shrapnel wound that caused his blindness was from the shotgun, and thus he wasn't "injured" when US troops entered. Sherurcij ^{(Speaker for the Dead)} 23:29, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

Worthington's article has more than a couple errors it seems, note that he refers to Silver wasling "into the compound behind Sgt Speer" and seeing Khadr, after Speer had already been wounded and was lying on the ground with a head wound. Sherurcij ^{(Speaker for the Dead)} 00:42, 6 February 2008 (UTC)

Regarding whether they were "Delta Force" or "Green Berets". The earliest accounts I read said they were Green Berets -- a force that dates back to JFK's administration, or before. I don't know which Special Forces units are considered tougher, or better trained, or who is given the missions that requires the most initiative and discretion. I don't know why the USA needs so many different kinds of special forces. In addition the military has Navy SEALS, Army Rangers, and possibly several others.

Mud walled compounds are the standard architecture in rural Afghanistan. Consistently of a 3 or 4 metre tall windowless mud wall. Inside rooms for human, and for domestic animals, line the walls, facing a central courtyard. An extended family, with a patriarch, uncles, cousins all living inside. For reasons of family propriety a smaller detached building might be constructed for lodging guests, to keep the wives and daughters safe from prying eyes. How large are these compounds? Are they larger than a baseball in-field? I don't know. OC-1's account has this compound containing an "alley". Might this just have been a gap between one set of room built lining the outer wall, and another? Possibly between one son's apartment and another's? Or between the human apartments and the animal sheds?

According to the National Post article, The Good Son, from December 2002, Silver was just a Captain at the time.

My reading was that Morris's squad reached the compound first, and called for reinforcements. From other accounts I gather that there were approximately 40 GIs on-site by the final sweep. I gathered that the occupants were already aware they were surrounded as the reinforcements Morris called for arrived.

I've seen the entry and exit holes rounds from an assault rifles like M16s leave in ballistics gel. An M16 round will have a small entry hole and a shockingly large exit hole.

Various teenage Afghan captives testified that they escaped conscription into the Taliban because their beards hadn't come in. Afghans don't have birth certificates. Most of the Afghan captives didn't know their birth date, or how old they were. In looking for sources on Taliban conscription I came across sources that confirmed that, in the late 1990s at least, the Taliban didn't let teenagers who didn't have beards engage in hostilities.

If Khadr was less wounded than his companions it may have been because older comrades covered his body with theirs during the aerial bombardment.

Layne Morris stated, earlier this week, that he was sure Khadr was "the grenade man". But he doesn't seem to have explained what made him draw this conclusion. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Geo Swan (talk • contribs) 23:30, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

There are photos of the compound in the CBS video - and other than the reference to calling for reinforcements, I haven't seen any indication that the group surrounding the compound was ever more than six men. Morris referred to a "second medic" being on-site, but that was long after the hostilities had ceased and Khadr had been shot. Also, note that Hansen is a "green beret" (was a gunner in Vietnam[2]) (general term for Special Forces) from the 19th. [3] "Delta Force" is a separate unit, unrelated to the 19th.

WHen Mike Leavitt gave his speech about the Bronze Star citation, he described the battle thus;

The second heroic event began as a "search and locate" foray at a walled Afghan compound and turned into a prolonged battle between Major Watt's detachment and an Al Qaeda cell. It was all-out combat, involving air support and medical evacuations and it continued for five hours. Four soldiers were hit, including a Utah guardsman. Through it all, Watt commanded rescue and battle operations as Hansen risked his life to pull wounded comrades to safety.

They killed and captured the entire Al Qaeda force. One of those injured in that battle was Sergeant Lane Morris also with us tonight.

Now, it's not terribly helpful, but it does offer a few new insights (if we assume the Governor of the state heard the story right, which is of course, only "possible"). It implies that the battle took five hours, not four (medEvac of Khadr could've been the extra hour, some sources would count it, others wouldn't), it also implies that four soldiers were "hit" - since the two Afghan interpreters are apparently counted as "wounded comrades", this could mean they were Afghan National Army regulars and thus counted in the total of "four" who were hit. (Morris and Speer from grenades, the two Afghans from gunfire). However, this also designates the two "wounded comrades", which assuming this is a reference to the Afghan interpreters, implied they were not "shot point-blank in the face, killed instantly" as Layne Morris later stated to the media...in fact it implies they were alive at the time he ran forward to drag them to safety (which also makes more logical sense, if somebody were shot point-blank in the face and not moving, a soldier would probably be less likely to advance under fire to drag their body back to safety).

So basically it comes down to a matter of trying to understand the chain of events, are there any direct quotes implying that the "two wounded comrades" for which Hansen was awarded the BZ were the two Afghan interpreters shot upon approach? Or might two SPecial Forces have been shot?

Also, per your comments about the M16 used - you're suggesting that you agree it's more likely a reference to an M16 shotgun than carbine? Or vice versa? Sherurcij ^{(Speaker for the Dead)} 00:28, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

Someone keeps removing the references to the National Post article "The Good Son".

Sergeant 1st Class Layne Morris didn't expect to be engaged in a firefight that day... A team of Special Forces soldiers and a local Afghan militia set out to investigate... The men ignored Sgt. Morris's entreaties to open the door, and sat with their weapons conferring for about 45 minutes, which was the amount of time it took for Sgt. Morris to call in reinforcements. When the backup troops arrived and Pashtu translators began to negotiate with the men inside the compound, they responded with grenades and bullets... "We were amazed that anyone could still be alive in there," said Captain Mike Silver, who walked into the bombed-out compound behind Sgt. Speer. "Within seconds, we had him [Omar] pinpointed and we opened fire." Omar, who had the beginnings of a peach-fuzz beard on his chin, was covered in blood and dirt and lying on the ground between two fallen pillars. His four comrades had died when U.S. forces bombed the compound earlier in the afternoon. He had been lying in wait, clutching a pistol and a grenade. He was surrounded by a cache of arms that included grenades, ammunition and automatic weapons. Within seconds of throwing the grenade at Sgt. Speer, Omar took two shots in the chest and dropped his pistol...

The URL of this mirror of The Good Son article does not comply with policy for inclusion in article space. But we have the title, publication, date of publication and author, so it remains a valid link even without. So think should not be removed again.

I'll look for that link about the number of reinforcements.

Cheers! Geo Swan (talk) 07:28, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

More detailes here -- it is a mirror of a widely quoted Wall Street Journal article. Geo Swan (talk) 07:39, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

And the story becomes more of a clusterfuck - hrm. Now we have the translators not appearing until after initial contact, and that they apparently weren't just sent forward, but that Silver's team had been there for 45 minutes prior to even trying to negotiate in Pashto (after the men "ignored" an American soldier yelling at them to open the door? That doesn't make much sense). Frankly, and obviously this is entirely OR, Silver's story about the Firefight seems to change the most about the position of where he was compared ot the others, he's told at least three "slightly different" stories about how it happened - which I'd tend to believes make him the most likely OC-1, having to "invent some details" to cover up the 2nd Muja inside. Of course, that's OR and can't go in the article, just commenting that it's going to be hard reconciling his different stories :\

Of course, remember OK was inside the compound and speaks perfect English - so if Morris actually requested them to open the door as he first approached (this makes no sense, he approached, knocked on the door, withdrew and called reinforcements, THEN the Muja inside shot translators? Why not just shoot Morris' crew at first contact? Blah)

You able to check if any of the ARB/CSRT/ChargeSheets ever mentioned the pistol? I'm curious whether its presence is consistent in stories or not - since the new "leaked" document tends to suggest he was unarmed. (and verifies he was shot in the back/shoulder, not chest) Sherurcij ^{(Speaker for the Dead)} 07:47, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

PS, your new article specifically states the dead men were "all Arabs", rather than Pashtuns (who are a Persian offshoot as I recall) - think that's just bad-journalist-speak for "brown-skinned", or were they actually Arabs speaking Arabic? OK spoke both Pashto and Arabic, but the US Interpreters are defined as Pashto translators, not Arabic. Sherurcij ^{(Speaker for the Dead)} 08:16, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

rand

I think I mentioned this before, but I think it is important, so I will mention this again -- OC-1's testimony is not the possibly exculpatory witness Keubler first learned about in December. Geo Swan (talk) 19:33, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

Yup, I know Sherurcij ^{(Speaker for the Dead)} 20:19, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

Why not wait until dark, when the GIs would have the advantage of night vision equipment?

If it was 10am, I suppose they didn't consider it worth a 12 hour wait just to use new equipment.Sherurcij ^{(Speaker for the Dead)} 20:19, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

Keubler questioned whether shooting Khadr in the back complied the GIs rules of engagement.

Some sources suggest the shooter was not a GI, but was a CIA official. Would a CIA official feel bound by the same rules of engagement as the GIs he or she was with? If I were a GI I would sure want them to be -- if only because the ROE protect GIs from friendly fire mistakes. Geo Swan (talk) 19:33, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

Possible, but I haven't seen anything other than speculation that any CIA assets were involved. If you have actual evidence that there CIA assets with either the first group, the team that set out or the reinforcements, let me know - but otherwise I think it's just idle speculation by sensationalist journalists. Sherurcij ^{(Speaker for the Dead)} 20:19, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

Worth mentioning -- Khadr's case was considered one of the easiest to prosecute. This was one of the causes of the disagreement between Colonel Morris Davis and other senior officials. He wanted to focus on first prosecuting captives who could be tried based on evidence that was not coerced through torture, and where most of the evidence was not classified. Thomas Hartmann, and others, wanted to prosecute king-pins -- even if those trials would have to be held entirely in-camera.

Good catch on the new sources you found.

I've uploaded some new images:

Guantanamo court room.

Alleged to be Omar Khadr, being trained to construct a time bomb, from video captured by the USA.

Alleged to be Omar Khadr, being trained to construct a time bomb, from video captured by the USA.

Alleged to be Omar Khadr, planting landmines, from video captured by the USA.

Alleged to be Omar Khadr, planting landmines, from video captured by the USA.

Image of the site of the July 27 2002 skirmish, from GI video.

Image of the site of the July 27 2002 skirmish, from GI video.

Image of the site of the July 27 2002 skirmish, from GI video.

Omar Khadr, shortly after capture 3, possibly getting first aid.

Geo Swan (talk) 19:33, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

You'll need to crop the 60 minutes logo and media player out of the photos, for them to be Public Domain. Even still, some could argue the "captured videotape" isn't Public Domain - since it's not made by the US Fed'l government.

I think it is time for the Omar Khadr article, the Layne Morris article, the Christopher Speer article, the Mike Silver article, and the OC-1 (witness) article to all have their coverage of the skirmish cut back to a paragraph, or two short paragraphs, with a pointer to an article just about the skirmish. Let's confine the discussion of the (conflicting) known details of the skirmish to a single article. I like:

Further information: Skirmish at Ab Qhail, Afghanistan, on July 27, 2002

Geo Swan (talk) 19:33, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

I don't mind it for the officers' articles, but Omar Khadr is going to be the first-and-last stop for many readers trying to learn about this kid in the newspaper today. I think we owe it to them to keep the article as fully-contextual as possible.

I'll keep my eyes peeled for references to the Pistol.

Interestingly Bill Simon, in the CBS segment, asserts that the grenade was "thrown over a wall" -- I think this would be the first reference to "over the wall". Is it possible that CBS may have been given illicit access to the OC-1 testimony? Geo Swan (talk) 19:33, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

It seems unlikely to think they wouldn't have taken the opportunity to drop the story that's leaking now, about the fact Khadr wasn't seen to throw the grenade and a second Muja was still alive at the time it was thrown. It's possible either a coincidence that CBS used that wording, or Silver/Morris gave an interview and inadvertantly used the term. I don't really smell conspiracy. Sherurcij ^{(Speaker for the Dead)} 20:19, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

You mean a second conspiracy? The Prosecution wanted to show the tape in court. Brownback wouldn't let them. Jeffrey Gordon said that the Prosecution didn't leak the tape. He didn't say who did leak the tape. Somebody leaked that tape.

Simon's comment couldn't be based on an interview with Morris. I believe him when he says he was as surprised as the rest of us to learn those details from OC-1's account.

Yes, I figured the time codes should go. But I didn't want to remove them until people had helped pick the best images.

The reason why I favor cutting back the individual coverage of the skirmish in the individual articles is to prevent allowing multiple versions to grow inconsistent with one another. I want my watchlist entries to be as useful as possible. That means working to keep the articles on it focussed on just one topic. Another participant here has suggested merging just about everything -- which is IMO a terrific disservice for people who make good use of their watchlists, the "what links here" button, and understand and exploit the full power of the bidirectional nature of the wikipedia's links. We should understand and exploit the full power of the bidirectional nature of wikilinks.

I think we have more than enough information to justify a separate article about the skirmish itself. Having it as a separate article allows for readers who are only interested in the skirmish, or only interested in the skirmish, and one of the actors, to not have keep the articles about all the actors on their watchlist. Wouldn't merging all the articles into one be just as good? Absolutely not. Because, then, new details about the actors the reader wan't interested in would still be triggering hits one their watchlist.

Yes, but you have to balance the fact that 75% of people who read the article on OK won't read a seperately-linked article on the circumstances of his capture which form the basis for the charge of war crimes against him. They'd leave only knowing that "he was in some firefight and is accused of warcrimes" - leaving the information on the page ensures that everything is put in context. I'm strongly against removing any information on the firefight from OK's article, the officers' articles should simply link to [[Omar Khadr#Firefight_and_Capture|a lengthy battle]] if you want to direct them to the full account. It seems like the best compromise.

Note that the basis for the Fayetteville story gives an "interesting" timeline of events, it not only mentions "the pistol" but claims that Khadr was shooting it at the soldiers - was this an early indicator of the second Muja with the AK? Surely soldiers stationed outside the walls, like Hansen, would be able to tell the difference between hearing an AK and hearing a "pistol" fired at American troops before the 1 and 2-round bursts that killed the Muja and wounded OK? It also claims that five bodies were found in the rubble, whereas general consensus seems to say there were five fighters including Khadr, though you'll notice that the early story which mentions "entering the compound" says they saw three dead bodies - which accounts for the second Muja and OK in the alleyway.

Finally, I saw the number of Zadran's wounded listed somewhere earlier, I think it was seven - but if you can help me hunt down the source for that number, I'd appreciate it. Sherurcij ^{(Speaker for the Dead)} 22:12, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

I'd love to use some (larger, clearer) photos of the compound in the Firefight section, but do you have any actual evidence that the photos of the bombed-out compound were made by a "GI" - and that there's no possible way CBS themselves went to Ayub Khayl and got the footage years later? I think it warrants a letter to CBS inquiring about the source of the footage. Sherurcij ^{(Speaker for the Dead)} 16:56, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

Forking

For right now, while we focus on cleaning up this mess, I've created Military Tribunals of Omar Khadr and O.K. v George W. Bush - I'd like to focus on all three articles separately, and then debate the merits of whether we should merge two, or even all three, of them. But for now, the Omar Khadr article should be given two or three short paragraphs of summary for the two forks, with a "see main article at..." link. Thanks. Sherurcij ^{(Speaker for the Dead)} 01:55, 6 February 2008 (UTC)

Heasther

Sergeant Heather Cerveny, the paralegal for Colby Vokey, Khadr's military lawyer, issued an affidavit reporting that off-duty Guantanamo guards had bragged to her of abusing detainees. On October 14, 2006 Vokey's boss imposed a gag order on the two while the matter is investigated - is this relevant to Khadr himself? Sherurcij ^{(Speaker for the Dead)} 15:56, 6 February 2008 (UTC)

Removed, as the information is already on Cerveny's article Sherurcij ^{(Speaker for the Dead)} 07:48, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

Leaked Document

There doesn't seem to be anything on this page about the leaked document that contradicted previous evidence. - http://www.thestar.com/News/World/article/301316 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.140.107.55 (talk) 18:31, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

In February 2008, the Pentagon accidentally released evidence that revealed that although Khadr was present during the firefight, there was no other evidence that he had thrown the grenade - and speculation had merely formed based on the fact his comrade was firing a rifle at the time the explosive was thrown. After his comrade was killed, a wounded Khadr turned away from the soldiers on his knees but was shot twice in the back before being captured.[4] from the introduction. The section on the Firefight also makes use of the new evidence. Sherurcij ^{(Speaker for the Dead)} 18:34, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

Just for amusement

Just because I love seeing journalists add a little dramatic flair of their own, when it's clear that they're basically writing a story in their own minds of how they picture things happening....

Sergeant 1st Class Christopher J. Speer...walked into the compound, seeking wounded. Suddenly a skinny figure rose from the rubble with a pistol in one hand and a grenade in the other. Omar Khadr, howling defiance, pitched the grenade. The blast felled Speer...

Colin Nickerson, Boston Globe

So it basically portrays Speer as entering "alone" (he was behind four other soldiers, at the rear of the detachment. Nothing wrong with that, so why fudge details?), "seeking wounded" as though it were a humanitarian effort - when all reports say that every soldier gathered around believed there was "no chance" anyone had survived, and they'd been ordered to sweep the rubble for intelligence, not survivors. And finally, not only do we get a zombie-like OK "rising from the rubble", but he is "howling defiance" while doing so. If I have a pet peeve, it's journalists who do this - add their own little character interaction into a "story" for better drama. sigh. Sherurcij ^{(Speaker for the Dead)} 22:37, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

Aaaaand the runner-up (more amusing, but less Presumption of Truth from Azzam Publications than the Boston Globe)

12 US SOLDIERS KILLED IN KHOST

Source: Azzam Publications

Khost (Azzam), July 29: According to reliable sources US Troops had been in an area east of Khost when at midday local time, they were ambushed by a 14 year old Afghan child who managed to kill four US soldiers. US Forces retaliated swiftly by bombing the region killing at least two children, including the 14 year old Afghan child.

After the bombing, US Forces attacked the Ayub Khail Tribe, which the 14 year old Afghan child belonged to. The local tribesman defended themselves and in this fierce fight managed to kill at least eight more US Troops. Three Afghan tribesman were taken as martyrs. US Forces have now received reinforcements and have laid siege on the village. The situation is very intense.

I don't think they got a single fact correct there, lol Sherurcij ^{(Speaker for the Dead)} 23:01, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

hrm

He is charged with throwing a grenade that killed Army Sgt. 1st Class Christopher Speer, 28, of Albuquerque, N.M., and wounded Army Sgt. Layne Morris, of West Jordan, Utah. - a single grenade injured them both? It's my understanding that the Attempted Murder charge was simply for fighting against the group, not specific to Morris - wasn't he already MedEvaced by the time the group found Khadr and got hit by the last grenade? Sherurcij ^{(Speaker for the Dead)} 03:25, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

Morris called Khadr "the grenade man". He seems to be saying that although Khadr's companions were grown men, Khadr inflicted all the casualties against Americans in the skirmish. Geo Swan (talk) 04:10, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

Essentially that Khadr was the only one throwing grenades for four and a half hours, while the other four men used their rifles? I don't think I've seen any reference to that theory - have a link? Sherurcij ^{(Speaker for the Dead)} 04:15, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

Layne Morris said despite the new information released this week he isn't concerned about the coming trial or conflicting reports of what happened on July 27, 2002. He said he believes there is evidence to show it was Khadr's job to throw the grenades during the battle, while the other men in the house used their AK-47s. "Omar was the grenade man," he said. Michelle Shephard (February 7 2008). "Soldier in 'shock' over leaked Khadr report". Toronto Star. Retrieved 2008-02-10. {{cite news}}: Check date values in: |date= (help)

Wow, thanks for the link - yeah, I agree it's almost amusing to think that a Green Beret is basically saying that four men with assault rifles failed to hit any American troops, while the 15-year old kid ran around throwing all the grenades out the windows, including at least five that *did* catch Green Berets (Morris, Speer and then the other three soldiers were hit by two grenades each, but each grenade hit two different people, is how I read it).

btw, would appreciate if you could write an introduction/summary for the two forks, Military Tribunals of Omar Khadr and O.K. v George W. Bush. Sherurcij ^{(Speaker for the Dead)} 06:31, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

It does slightly contradict the 2007 appeal that "“After vowing to die fighting, the accused armed himself with an AK-47 assault rifle, put on an ammunition vest, and took a position by a window in the compound" of course. Sherurcij ^{(Speaker for the Dead)} 04:44, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

Unsentenced

Although some can dispute, according to their point of view, that he has been detained "illegally" since his capture in 2002, it is a fact that he has been detained unsentenced since 2002, meaning he has never been convicted of any crime. Although his case was thrown out of court, he was not freed as he should have been, but charged in a different manner. The goal post is always changing according to the will of the US government.

If anyone want to edit this out, you better justify it first. Hudicourt (talk) 14:06, 22 February 2008 (UTC)

Perhaps you'd better take a closer look at those goalposts. It was only a few years ago that America's critics claimed that they cared about the Geneva Conventions. While the SCOTUS eventually decided that Common Article 3 applied, that's all they gave. I suggest you read it carefully. Nowhere does it say a trial is required to detain these fascists. It is only if they're to be punished that they need that.

In fact, had the SCOTUS declared that the full GCs applied to this war, Omar Khadr could be detained under the GCIV as well.

But besides all that, they've been wanting to try this guy for a long time. His lawyers keep throwing up roadblocks. While it's always possible they could eventually win, it'll be U.S. law they turn to. They never really cared about the GCs.

-- Randy2063 (talk) 15:51, 22 February 2008 (UTC)

Excisions

Just a few things I don't want "lost", but I'm taking out of the article as I clean up - hopefully we can find another article in which they'll convey the same information.

Elaine Chao, the United States Secretary of Labor, has spoken about the responsibility to give child soldiers special treatment, specifically to provide help for them to re-integrate into society. She announced a $3 million program to help re-integrate child-soldiers in Afghanistan back into Afghan society.

Sherurcij ^{(Speaker for the Dead)} 04:33, 11 March 2008 (UTC)

Chao was then, and remains, a Cabinet level official. Her policy announcement about child soldiers exposes a cabinet level disagreement about how child soldiers -- like Khadr -- should be treated. I think that makes it relevant for this article. Geo Swan (talk) 11:37, 16 March 2008 (UTC)

Yes, but would fit better in an article devoted to the subject such as Canadian policy towards child soldiers or something, imho. Quotes that don't discuss Omar specifically, but just "point towards" cases like his are unfortunately the first to be cut, in trying to deal with size I think. Though one person suggested we needed more focus on "public perceptions" of Khadr, so maybe once the Tribunals are all worked back into this article, we can create a "Public view of Omar Khadr" article or something, which would collect public, and governmental, quotes related, such as this one? Sherurcij ^{(Speaker for the Dead)} 21:45, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

Besides that, Omar Khadr is not a child soldier by any serious definition of the term.

I don't think this was necessarily a disagreement on policy between Chao and DoD. It could have been a misunderstanding of definition. The U.N. defines child soldier as under 15. The Optional Protocol on the Involvement of Children in Armed Conflict uses under 18, but it doesn't apply here.

More to the point, the AR 190-8 manual on detainees provides for special treatment for children under 15. Chao may not have understood where the age cutoff was when she spoke.

Khadr should not be called a child soldier. (It's questionable whether any unlawful combatant could be called a soldier, but that's another story.) If some sleazy lawyer or advocacy group wants to call him a child soldier then fine, but then we should say who it is calling him that. They say such things all the time. That doesn't mean they pass the laugh test.

-- Randy2063 (talk) 23:22, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

I think it's worth mentioning (as currently) that there is a "child soldier debate" swirling around him, but not making a judgment either way on it in the article. We're here to provide the facts, not to convince readers whether Treaty A or Treaty B should be followed. Personally I don't think he's either a child soldier or a terrorist, there is nothing indicating he was conscripted to fight in a war - he was asked to provide translation services and even prosecutors don't really claim that he was being groomed for front-line battle or anything. "Due to circumstances" he ended up in a firefight, where he is alleged to have thrown grenades at US soldiers wanting to capture his "colleagues". shrugs, it doesn't really fit the notion of a "soldier" or a "terrorist". Anyways, whatever term applies, I think this quote is better suited to an article specifically about Canada's statements on the issue of "minors during conflicts" or whatever. It doesn't seem to have been said specifically with Khadr in mind - and thus while Omar Khadr might link to an article providing greater context on the national issue, the article itself isn't the best place for the information. Sherurcij ^{(Speaker for the Dead)} 23:37, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

Yes, we're supposed to give the facts, and that's the point. It's not a fact that Omar Khadr was a child soldier. I don't even think there's much of a debate about it other than an offhand comment or two. I think it's been taken too seriously.

As for what he was doing, what matters is whether he fought, not whether he initially didn't intend to fight. The contracted translators for U.S. troops aren't allowed to carry weapons, and they'd be in serious trouble if they ever shot an anyone. If U.S. soldiers are captured in a real war by any nation that follows the Geneva Conventions (which is not likely to ever happen again), those translators would be detained as well.

-- Randy2063 (talk) 00:30, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

Results 1 - 10 of about 7,960 for "omar khadr" + "child soldier". Let's not kid ourselves about whether or not a debate exists. Sherurcij ^{(Speaker for the Dead)} 00:40, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

And Google has 442,000 results for CIA and UFO. That doesn't mean there's a serious connection.

Do you remember back when the detainee issue first came up? Back then it was all about the Geneva Conventions, and the critics were claiming that the U.S. wasn't following them. Well, it turns out that the U.S. has been pretty respectful of the GCs. I think it's time that we ask the same of the critics. The treaties say the age is 15. The Army manual was written to conform to that treaty. If people still want to call him a child soldier then that's simply piling on for the sake of piling on. It's no more serious than when I call Khadr a Hitler Youth.

-- Randy2063 (talk) 01:08, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

And the term UFO is used six times in the article on the CIA, referring to the debate that centres around the connection as evidenced by the RP. Similarly, OK's article mentions the fact there is debate about the term "Child soldier" and its applicability, it's how things are done. Sherurcij ^{(Speaker for the Dead)} 01:24, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

The CIA article doesn't say there's a connection. Only that there was an investigation.

That Khadr's lawyer calls him a child soldier doesn't make him one. Lawyers will grasp at anything when they've got a difficult case.

This article doesn't simply mention that there's a debate. That would be enough if it did. The trouble is that it outright calls him a child soldier as though he really is one.

-- Randy2063 (talk) 01:52, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

In January 2008, the revised manual for Canadian Consular Officers included a list of locations where it was possible that Canadians in foreign custody would undergo torture. The United States was on the list, based on the belief that Canadians could face torture in Guantanamo Bay - where Khadr is the sole Canadian.

Sherurcij ^{(Speaker for the Dead)} 01:09, 20 March 2008 (UTC)

AQ

Without any actual evidence that the deceased were related to UBL's network, I'm loathe to refer to them as AQ. As I understand it, they were never even identified. It's clear they were militants, or one could use Mujahideen (has some POV connotations however) per the Soviet invasion, but AQ should only be referenced as an allegation against them, not an established fact. Sherurcij ^{(Speaker for the Dead)} 21:29, 14 March 2008 (UTC)

I concur they shouldn't be called al Qaeda. Geo Swan (talk) 11:27, 16 March 2008 (UTC)

Dead links

• Second Request for Appointment of Expert Consultant: Dr. Xenakis and Dr. Cantor (.pdf), 'Miami Herald, June 13 2006 - cannot find any non-wiki reference to this file online. Help? Sherurcij ^{(Speaker for the Dead)} 07:50, 16 March 2008 (UTC)

First militiaman

The timeline's confusing me a bit, it seems like Zadran's first militiaman, the one who retreated under fire, was with the group before they called for reinforcements? He's not mentioned elsewhere when discussing the team sent to check on the Satphone huts - when/where Zadran's men were is confusing, though I strongly suspect the reference to "100 Afghans watching" probably refers to Zadran's troops, not local villagers anxious to see carnage. Sherurcij ^{(Speaker for the Dead)} 20:46, 19 March 2008 (UTC)

To confuse the situation futher, Shephard's book refers to only a hlaf-dozen of Zadran's troops being present! Sherurcij ^{(Speaker for the Dead)} 21:22, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

PV2 R

PV2 R, the PV2 refers to the rank Private Second Class, while the R could be an initial or could be a reference to his being a PV2-R, a Private Second Class in the Rangers...which you'll notice we had some troops from the Rangers arriving in the 5-vehicle convoy. It's not clear yet. Sherurcij ^{(Speaker for the Dead)} 23:21, 19 March 2008 (UTC)

Random notes

I'm fighting to use the most concise wording possible, but it seems inevitable this will be one of the articles which necessitate being longer than 32k. Sherurcij ^{(Speaker for the Dead)} 18:10, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

Maha's views on homosexuality aren't related to Omar, it's suffice (imho) to say that she was "concerned with corrupting influences" in Canada - and leave discussion of her specific views to her specific article. (If one is ever created). Sherurcij ^{(Speaker for the Dead)} 20:51, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

Mother's position as legal guardian makes all her view relevant. We cannot argue the Omar is a child soldier without accepting her as having legal right over the Omar. [User_talk:Dlafferty] —Preceding unsigned comment added by Dlafferty (talk • contribs) 22:42, 29 March 2008 (UTC)

By that reasoning, Goebbels children should include the fact their father believed that Jews should be exterminated...but I really don't see how that's relevant to the children, do you? Sherurcij ^{(Speaker for the Dead)} 22:52, 29 March 2008 (UTC)

Goebbel's influence on his family influence might be important if the children were being tried for the murder of jews. They might include his views in an argument that they were not criminally responsible. In the present case, if Omar Khadr stands accused of crimes, he may wish to dismiss criminal liability by attributing his actions to those of his parents. If she did not directly influence him to illegally murder a foreign soldier, he might resort to indirect influences such as irrational fears on the part of his mother that kept him from his homeland of Canada. Whether her views are irrational would be for, in this case, the reader to decide, and not yourself. Is the content factually incorrect?

In 1992, Khadr's father stepped on a land-mine while in Lowgar, Afghanistan and nearly died; the Khadr family moved back to Toronto he could recuperate for free by virtue of the Canadian medicare

First of all, the link doesn't say anything about Ahmed's return to Canada, muchless the reasoning for it. And secondly, it's POV to state "for free", and words like "by virtue" are definitely emotionally-manipulative words designed to trigger feeling. Suffice to say that they moved back so he could recuperate (or "recover" if you have a preference). Typically, when somebody is wounded overseas, they return to their home country to recover...there's nothing sinister about it. Sherurcij ^{(Speaker for the Dead)} 22:56, 29 March 2008 (UTC)

Inquiries

Note to self: Exhaust fields of inquiry on determining who the woman and child were, that OC-1 mentions. Sherurcij ^{(Speaker for the Dead)} 01:10, 20 March 2008 (UTC)

I read an account that referred to multiple women escaping the compound. I got the impression that there were at least three. I guess one could have been a girl tall enough to be mistaken for an adult. One account has then quietly leaving during the time when Layne Morris was waiting for reinforcements. But OC-1 has then running our during the aerial bombardment. Geo Swan (talk) 05:14, 20 March 2008 (UTC)

Mmm, but OC-1's witness testimony says "One woman and one child escaped the compound prior to [OC-1]'s arrival and were escorted away by US personnel." implying he didn't see any of them leave - since he didn't arrive until at least after the Apaches had strafed the compound -- possibly even after the Mk-82s were dropped. If he's talking about hearsay, any of the original half-dozen guys would've mentioned multiple women/children to him presumably, so it's possible that one of the earlier reinforcements (who brought Zadran's militia, as I understand it) arrived just in time to see a single mother/child leave and told OC-1 about it I suppose...still, seems odd. Sherurcij ^{(Speaker for the Dead)} 05:23, 20 March 2008 (UTC)

Note to self: Did Khadr ask to be killed then officer was about to order him killed, or did officer suggest Khadr be killed, was restrained, and Khadr argued and agreed he would rather be killed? Makes a big difference. Sherurcij ^{(Speaker for the Dead)} 20:44, 20 March 2008 (UTC)

Note to self: Four men in alleyway, Khadr taken away alive, two bodies taken and buried by locals...where is the remaining body? Sherurcij ^{(Speaker for the Dead)}

Note to self: He saw his friend killed, someone specific? Sherurcij ^{(Speaker for the Dead)} 20:26, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

Note to self: A prisoner was taken aboard the initial MedEvac DustOff (Wings 11), this is not a reference to Khadr as the MedEvacs left while the compound was still being bombed - and Khadr is specifically referred to being flown in a CH-47 from the battlesite, not a UH-60. Sherurcij ^{(Speaker for the Dead)} 21:41, 25 March 2008 (UTC)