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Please note: This talk page should be used to discuss issues critical to the WP:GA page listing all Good Articles. Comments and discussion pertaining to the improvement of the GA system as a whole should be discussed at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Good articles.

Good article signs

Should Good Articles, like Featured articles, how a symbol on the top of its page, signalling so? I think it should, to showcase that the article is better than the norm. Universal Hero (talk) 22:21, 23 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Any views?

This is a perennial proposal for GA, which is invariably opposed. bibliomaniac15 22:58, 23 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Yap, always like that. Idea pops up from time to time yet there's not enough !votes in each deletion review that merits an overturn (it's like those small political parties, they have some support all over the places, but never enough support in any one location to gain a seat) OhanaUnitedTalk page 02:46, 24 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Can't we start a campaign or petition for the approval of these signs? Universal Hero (talk) 19:40, 24 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Feel free to do so. You have the support of many of us, as long as you inviteus all to the discussions. Tarret talk 13:02, 21 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I agree that there should be a visible image on the article's page itself, rather than just the Talk Page -- so much so that I'm already bolding text as though we're voting :).
As things stand, it's sort of like presenting an award behind closed doors (or in this case, behind a link that not everyone who visits the article will click on). Actually, I thought that there used to be an image for Good Articles present in the articles themselves (a silver star or something). I can't recall how I even learned about the existence of the Good Article honourific without one.--James26 (talk) 17:38, 10 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I think on balance this has my support. There was indeed an article-page symbol at one point, but it got !voted out. While I understand the arguments against, I think we've addressed many of the objections and GA quality is generally on a upward curve. Part of the difficulty is that this has been shot down so many times now that many GA veterans just don't bother discussing it any more ;) EyeSerenetalk 11:01, 13 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
This idea has always had my support, but there's definitely a firmly entrenched body of opinion against it. To the extent that some would even prefer to see the bronze FA star dropped rather than allow a GA symbol in an article's top right-hand corner.
EyeSerene quite rightly points out that the quality of GA articles has been on an upward curve, to the extent that in some recents GA passes I've seen you'd be hard pressed to tell the difference betwen GA and FA. In the interest of full disclosure I'll admit that I was of the main editors of Pendle witch trials, and that I was the reviewer for Gerard, Archbishop of York, but articles like that are becoming more and more the norm for GA I think. --Malleus Fatuorum (talk) 01:04, 21 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I've always been against a main space symbol, but not out of any concern about the quality of the GAs, nor because I think GAs and editors who create them don't deserve recognition. Instead I am against a main space symbol simply because it is not encyclopedic information: one could even argue that whether an article is GA or not is original research, not neutral in point of view, and not verifiable by reliable secondary sources! Violating all three of Wikipedia's core content policies is not a cool idea. GA is a resource primarily to help and motivate editors, not readers. The fact that the GA process is clear about this distinction is part of its integrity, and is something to be proud, not ashamed of. Geometry guy 07:07, 23 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I am in favour of this. Regarding Gguy's objections: there is plenty of unencyclopedic information already on mainspace, telling readers that articles are stubs, that they need clean-up, that there are npov problems, or whatever. In fact, such information as is already present is much more clearly directed at editors than at readers (recognizing that the line is fuzzy, and that such tags aim in part to turn readers into editors). And these tags also arguably violate the same Wikipedia core content policies. A "good article" symbol would be much more discrete, and much more obviously targeted at readers. --jbmurray (talk|contribs) 18:37, 23 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I think that's absolutely right. To me, Geometry guy's objection is inconsistent, given the existence of the FA bronze star. --Malleus Fatuorum (talk) 19:22, 23 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Well, even a number of the FA folks aren't thrilled with the FA star. I'm neutral on the matter, but it seems somewhat moot given that one can enable display of an article's assessment in the "gadgets" preference tab. ЭLСОВВОLД talk 19:32, 23 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Moot only if one believes that all of wikipedia's readers actually logon to wikipedia. --Malleus Fatuorum (talk) 19:36, 23 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Note the strategic use of "somewhat moot".  ;) Perhaps I'm spoiled by never needing the services of a public computer, but it doesn't seem entirely unreasonable to assume that those familiar enough with the assessment systems (i.e. those for whom the star/plus would have meaning in the first place) would also be those who have accounts. ЭLСОВВОLД talk 19:42, 23 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
That seems to miss the important point made by Jbmurray. The star or whatever are not there for the benefit of those who have accounts. Their purpose is to give the reader some confidence that what they're reading has been through an independent review process. Do you seriously believe that most of the millions who view wikipedia each day have accounts? --Malleus Fatuorum (talk) 19:52, 23 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Involving Jbmurray in the GA process has clearly been a good thing. This is the first argument against my point of view that causes me to pause for thought, and even reconsider. I stand by my point that GA is editorial information, but what are the criteria for deciding what editorial information should be placed in the mainspace? Has this been thought through and discussed somewhere? Voting is not usually the best way to determine consensus, but if editors discuss, consult, and think about the issues before signing up to one of the sections below, this particular !vote may work. Geometry guy 19:54, 23 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Jbmurrray made the same point I was about to make in response to guy's objections, except i was going to use article redirects and disambiguation pages as examples of "non-encyclopedic information" that have a clear and useful purpose on wikipedia - and that are "original research". Besides "FA" status not being encyclopedic information, either, and being original research, and so forth. Kevin Baastalk 20:02, 23 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
@ Malleus: Of course not, which is precisely my point. Those teaming millions wouldn't know that the icon means there had been a review process. It would be a meaningless icon to them. An article's content and quality are self-evident; icons aren't terribly helpful, even to those who know the system. GAs which, by definition, are only "satisfactory article[s]" and do not need showcasing. If highlighting reviewed articles is important, why not have an icon for peer reviewed and A-rated articles? ЭLСОВВОLД talk 20:03, 23 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
"An article's content and quality are self-evident." For good or ill, this is not always the case. Most obviously, it is not always obvious whether or not an article covers all that it should. And for (far too) many readers, it is I suspect simply not obvious at all. As for knowing what the icon means, I suspect that's the same as the FA star. I suspect that the question should be phrased along the lines of "So long as we have the FA star, should be not also have a GA symbol?" There's no doubt another place somewhere in which the FA star, also, can or should be debated.
NB I don't see this as a question of "showcasing." (The FA star doesn't really "showcase": rather, it's the mainpage exposure that does that, and I'm not suggesting that GA articles are to be put on the mainpage.) But it's worth highlighting the < 1% of articles that have been through and passed some kind of review, even if there may be problems with that review process. --jbmurray (talk|contribs) 20:33, 23 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Because too many distinctions would be excessive. Kevin Baastalk 20:07, 23 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Then I think that you ought to be consistent, and support the removal of the bronze star from FAs. --Malleus Fatuorum (talk) 20:20, 23 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Show me the debate regarding removal of the bronze star and I'll enter the same comments. There's no inconsistency here; I've never been a proponent of the star. ЭLСОВВОLД talk 20:24, 23 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
As above, I think this has to be an "if... then..." discussion. I.e., so long as there is an FA star, should there be a GA symbol too? Though I have no major objections if the debate were to be expanded: it should simply be taken elsewhere. (Where?) --jbmurray (talk|contribs) 20:47, 23 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I agree that this is a valid question. It's a more or less perennial issue at FAC/FA, too. I know Raul doesn't like the star and I suspect Sandy is the same (although I say that with absolutely no certainty). As FA is the only "process" utilizing the main space icon, FA/FAC talk might be viable venues (Sandy will no doubt sigh, but c'est la vie). Otherwise, the village pump would likely have exposure to a wider audience. ЭLСОВВОLД talk 20:52, 23 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

(outdent) So when will this !vote ends? OhanaUnitedTalk page 20:08, 24 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Proposal

A GA symbol akin to the well-known FA symbol should appear on an article.

Support

  1. Support. The little green dot would help the project. Cheers! Wassupwestcoast (talk) 19:38, 23 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  2. Support. It would also help the readers. --Malleus Fatuorum (talk) 19:55, 23 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  3. Support. Beneficial to the readers and an incentive to the editors. I don't think the reader would be confused as to whether or not it's part of the article. Kevin Baastalk 20:05, 23 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    How do you know people aren't going to be confused? There are millions of people who visit this website, and the majority of them have no clue what the GA symbol means. The FA symbol is self-explanitory. How is it beneficial to the reader? How many people are going to look at the top-right corner of the article to see if it has the symbol, and determine whether or not to read the article on that basis? People aren't going to judge the quality of the article on what kind of symbols there are in the article. They are going to read the article, and decide for themselves whether they think the article is truely "good". Also, since only one person has to pass the article, they might consider it good while other people have a much different opinion. And, who is it an incentive to the editors? I highly doubt that anybody is actually going say "Well, if the symbol gets stuck onto the article, then I'm going to get working!". It's an incentive enough to get GA status. IMO, it would be unneeded, and just provide confusion to the average reader. Juliancolton Tropical Cyclone 20:23, 23 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    I believe I said "I don't think the reader would be confused as to whether or not it's part of the article." I didn't say "I know they won't..", I said "I don't think [they will]...". I used the word "think" and not the word "know", and I worded it in the positive and not the negative. And I didn't say "...about the details of the good article process." - which is not the purpose of the symbol to inform them - there are articles for that. I said "...whether or not it's part of the article." because this is a hidden assumption in the arguments put forth that it is "unencyclopedic" material. - the navigation bar at the left is "unencyclopedic", but that's okay because it's not part of the article. Same applies to FA status symbols and same would apply to GA status symbols.
    It is beneficial to the reader because it informs them that the article has been through and passed a review process. It provides an incentive to an editor because it adds an extra reward for getting an article to good article status, much like a badge of honor. It seems to me that these two things should be obvious. Kevin Baastalk 16:02, 24 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  4. Support A bronze star is no more self-explanatory than a green circle with a plus sign inside of it. You have to click on the star to KNOW what it means and what type of review it went through to gain FA status. It would be the same thing with the GA status. And that is the point of GA versus FA: to point out articles that are not up to FA status but are still better than the vast majority of other articles. I believe that with a GA circle clearly presented on each article, if an editor reads the article and disagrees with its rating, will provide them with a more direct route to go about reassessment/delisting. Right now, a visitor could stumble upon a pretty bad article, which might just happen to have at one time been GA-material, and not have any idea that there is a way to reassess the article's status and get it demoted. The only way I learned about GA was through a talk page header, and not everyone goes to every article's talk page. This may potentially increase the numbers of editors that know that GA status exists and increase the likelihood that a good article will get promoted and a poor article will be reassessed and demoted. will381796 (talk) 20:31, 23 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    Or even better, improving the article so that's its classification is justified. --Malleus Fatuorum (talk) 21:14, 23 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    Indeed. will381796 (talk) 21:19, 23 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  5. Support. If there is to be an FA star, then I see no reason not to have a GA symbol, too. --jbmurray (talk|contribs) 20:49, 23 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  6. Weak support I think the pros outweigh the cons - for me the decisive factor is that we are publically identifiying those articles that have been assessed as containing a minimum acceptable standard of scholarship and writing. If we want a quality encyclopedia, we need to make such articles more visible and instantly recognisable (how many readers ever check the talk page?). EyeSerenetalk 21:27, 23 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  7. Tentative support. I never expected to find myself supporting such a proposal, but I am tentatively supporting it now. I think the case for doing this has finally been made, but the implementation needs to be done with some care. Geometry guy 21:31, 23 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  8. Support. I've always liked the idea. Wrad (talk) 21:48, 23 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  9. Support GA is getter larger and better all the time. Another way to broadcast to readers and editors that we have a large body of work that has been reviewed and assessed as being quality is a definite net positive. Nominators deserve this, reviewers deserve this, readers deserve this. VanTucky 18:15, 24 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    To expand on my support, there is a very important point that one has brought up specifically. Despite the fact that people are still using GA as a stepping stone towards FAC, there are many GA-class articles that can simply never meet FA standards. Articles like Herdwick and Vinkensport can meet the FA standards in every way, but are denied that recognition simply because of their size. These smaller, but well-written, articles deserve the kind of immediately visible recognition that bigger articles can get through FA. We need an alternative, and adding a GA symbol will only be one more incentive for smaller articles to meet the GA criteria. VanTucky 22:19, 24 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  10. Strong Support - The GA's have never been of a higher quality, and the little Green symbol would indicate the usually vast difference between a GA and a non-GA. After all, this is an encyclopedia for readers, not editors, and it is important not to bury information on the quality of our articles so people will know at what stage of development they are. Judgesurreal777 (talk) 18:36, 24 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  11. Support, I've always wanted this. Someoneinmyheadbutit'snotme (talk) 19:04, 24 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  12. Strong support. This idea is probably one of the most frequently revisited debate in deletion review. It always got "shot down" because more opposers visit and comment on this debate than supporters, which is not a good representation of the community's opinions. GA have gone a long way and the bar raised over the years. Originally, if anyone thinks it's good, it's GA. Now there is a criteria that can be measured against. Just like in any sport competition, there're gold, silver, and bronze. If only the winner is recognized and leave the other 2 runner-ups in the cold, I think this is really really unfair. Putting it back to Wikipedia terms, this green + helps encourage editors to improve articles without the need to dedicate tremendous effort into making a FA before "officially" recognized for their hard work. Plus other languages have similar practice without getting into any conflict so I wonder why this couldn't work in english wikipedia. OhanaUnitedTalk page 19:42, 24 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  13. Support. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk 20:09, 24 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    Why? -- Naerii 22:26, 24 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  14. Support. There’s no reason not to. I don't agree with the comments about possible POV since any assessment mechanism is bound to be POV, you can't asses something without giving your opinion about it (especially when considering requirements such as being ‘’broad’’ which are subjective), but so long as that little green symbol links to the GA page and that page fully explains what GA means then I really don’t see the problem. Acer (talk) 21:25, 24 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  15. Support. I've always been under the impression that the great majority of good articles are, well, good enough to merit recognition. bibliomaniac15 Do I have your trust? 23:02, 24 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  16. Support- Mirroring what's stated above, good articles have achieved something, and deserve recognition for that. To address a concern held below about the symbol representing something that possibly isn't achieved in the article, adding a symbol should be a reason in which to make sure that the standards of a Good article are held high, and these standards are represented in the article. As long as we make sure that the article itself is worthy of attaining GA-status, there should be no problem of a GA symbol presenting false perceptions or recognition. Mastrchf (t/c) 01:01, 25 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  17. Support, this is a perennial proposal and one that I support fully, but it has sadly had trouble gaining consensus in the past. Lankiveil (speak to me) 01:24, 25 April 2008 (UTC).[reply]
  18. Support GA symbol shows that it was reviewed by at least one individual; since it isn't a star, there's not going to be a "oh, it's featured, it must be great" issue that has worried some of the opposers. Also, it might help draw in reviewers, long term. Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs (talk) 01:31, 25 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  19. Support. The GA process is well-ensconced in the community, so previous complaints about it being too new, too obscure, too insular, and so on are no longer well founded. If the desire for little green circles can encourage the creation of quality article content, then it's worth putting them up. --erachima talk 03:41, 25 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  20. Support Nothing new to add, I just think that it's a good PR move. Personally a little green circle would be motivating to me... perhaps that says more about me than the proposal though. --Gimme danger (talk) 08:39, 25 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  21. Support: If the article mainspace needs to be kept free from editorial remarks, all improvement tags have to be moved to the talk page. If that's not done, then the GA icon has equally valid reason to be on the main page. Arman (Talk) 09:05, 25 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose

  1. Oppose, while GA may be improving, the decision to promote is basically done by a single editor with little oversight. While GA is certainly a good thing, with properly awarded, without the in-depth reviewing offered by the FA/FL process, having a GA symbol on the front of an article is unnecessary and gives a false impression as to the quality of the article. Collectonian (talk) 20:00, 23 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    The decision to promote at FA is also made by a single individual. I would suggest that many current GAs are far superior to many older FAs, yet those articles still have a misleading bronze star in their top right-hand corners. --Malleus Fatuorum (talk) 20:06, 23 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    (edit conflict) The decision is made based on comments and reviews from other editors. Raul and Sandy would not promote something to FA if it got no support from other editors at all, and have been known to fail if there are enough opposing or unaddressed comments. There is more oversight all around. And I do agree, there are quite a few FAs that should be taken to FAR (as well as many GAs that need delisting because they either never should have been passed, or that no longer are GA quality). Not perfect, but at least with FA one can feel reasonably sure that it truly was FA quality at the time it passed. Collectonian (talk) 20:13, 23 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    Thing is, having a symbol increases transparency, and thus, in turn, oversight. Wrad (talk) 21:49, 23 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    Not that I've seen. It hasn't helped oversight with FAs anyway. Collectonian (talk) 16:06, 24 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    This is a discussion about GA, not FA. OhanaUnitedTalk page 19:45, 24 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    Malleus's statement ("The decision to promote at FA is also made by a single individual.") is simply incorrect; FA is a community process, and an article needs community support to pass. Unlike GA, which is one editor's decision. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 03:21, 25 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    That is a bit short-sighted. One person can pass it, but anyone can remove it (and they do) if it doesn't meet the criteria. GA deserves the title "community process" just as much as anything on wikipedia. Wrad (talk) 04:10, 25 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  2. Oppose Mostly per Collectonian. Juliancolton Tropical Cyclone 20:11, 23 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  3. Oppose. The presence of the "Display an assessment of an article's quality as part of the page header for each article." widget mitigates a concerned user's need to know the rating of each page on Wikipedia. —Rob (talk) 16:08, 24 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  4. Oppose The FA star was divisive enough. We shouldn't have another dust-up. I'd be more in favor of removing the stars than implementing the symbols because the stars on the mainspace are just symbolic elitism (my wikiproject is more important than your wikiproject). They are not guarantees of accuracy, completeness, or that anything is error-free. The FA/GA systems are internal assessment processes which should stay on the Talk & WP pages. On the GA side, I think the reviews are inconsistent and not rigorous enough to merit an elitist symbol. (I know there are the odd examples of very rigorous reviews). Following WP shift in focus more towards quality rather than quantity, GA is where articles should be. This shouldn't be special. And if you're looking for motivation try something less exclusionary and more focused on content creation, like Good Topics. maclean 17:14, 24 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  5. Oppose per all the above reasons. I don't agree with the FA star either. Epbr123 (talk) 17:59, 24 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    This is a discussion about GA, not FA. OhanaUnitedTalk page 19:45, 24 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  6. Oppose. How many times do we have to rehash this issue. Isn't this like the 3rd time this has been proposed. No more iconcruft, please! Kaldari (talk) 18:49, 24 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    Can you point to the previous discussions? That might be useful. I have in fact asked this question before (though it's a bit buried in that section), which led to this brief discussion. Obviously, nobody wants to be endlessly re-hashing debates; but those who are newer (such as myself) might appreciate being pointed to the previous iterations. --jbmurray (talk|contribs) 19:26, 24 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    These were first mentioned here: [1] And deleted here, endorsed here and then a few months laterhere. See also: this and this. --maclean 20:03, 24 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    And of course Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Good articles/archive 1#The good article tag on main article space, Wikipedia talk:Good articles/Archive 2#New template. I think the last endorsed deletion was Sept 2007 here and the last time this was proposed was Jan 2008 here maclean 20:16, 24 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    OK, many thanks for these links! --jbmurray (talk|contribs) 20:34, 24 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    I've looked over them now, and made a comment below. --jbmurray (talk|contribs) 23:46, 24 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    And whatever the outcome of the discussion here, it might be useful to have some kind of short FAQ, perhaps at WP:GA. --jbmurray (talk|contribs) 20:35, 24 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  7. Oppose. Only articles that reach FA are deserving of such recognition. I fully and completely and totally support the GA project, and love what it does and what it stands for. However, I just don't see that any article less than featured deserves such front-page recognition. --Jayron32.talk.contribs 19:47, 24 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  8. No, just not a good idea. -- Naerii 20:41, 24 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    Why not? I can understand the pov that Epbr123 expressed, that there should be nothing on the front page, but not the inconsistency that only FAs should be recognised. --Malleus Fatuorum (talk) 20:51, 24 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    The difference between GA and FA is that FAs are thoroughly vetted and undergo a lot of scrutiny before being passed. GAs are passed by whoever happens to wander by. I'm much more confident about us saying to the general public of our FAs, "Yes, this is some of our best work" than I am of saying to the public about GAs, "Yes, these articles are pretty good". I flicked through the GA page the other day and found tons of articles that were barely worthy of the status. I am very wary of making endorsements of these articles in such high visibility areas. -- Naerii 22:25, 24 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    Try flicking through the FAs one day. There are tons of them that would struggle even to make GA these days. So I still find your argument to be inconsistent. --Malleus Fatuorum (talk) 22:34, 24 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    I could go on for days about GA versus FA, but this isn't what we're here to discuss. Naerii has certainly give sufficient justification for his oppose. I don't agree, but no need to debate the perspective on which he bases his reasoning. VanTucky 22:38, 24 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    Please don't try to lecture me. I'm questioning the consistency of the argument, not its content. --Malleus Fatuorum (talk) 22:43, 24 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    The 'inconsistency' is imagined. P.S: I'm a she. -- Naerii 23:31, 24 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  9. Oppose. After seeing a strange comment on Jbmurray's page (that FA doesn't like GA), I followed his edits to find the latest dust up (stalker alert :-) This is a perennial discussion, and y'all can talk about it all day long here, but once it's exposed to the broader community, it will likely end up where it always does. Raul is on record as even being opposed to the FA star. As long as GA can be conferred by one editor (and that editor could have been a troll, vandal or sockpuppet yesterday and conferring GA status today), the star doesn't belong in mainspace; it is and will always be one editor's opinion. It is not a community process; it is a decision made by one person. And I would appreciate that some people would stop trying to pit FA against GA. Stating the facts (that GA is not a community process) doesn't mean that someone "doesn't like" GA. Resisting the continual suggestions to make the FA pages look like the GA pages also doesn't mean "FA doesn't like GA". GA means a lot to a lot of editors, there are several very good to excellent GA reviewers whose GA passes really do mean something, but as long as JoeAnybody can pass a GA, it is what it is, and FA doesn't need to emulate it. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 03:21, 25 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    I think you're mischaracterising the GA process. It is definitely community process. It is just a community process that works differently from FA. Also, this debate has already spread to the broader community and this is not an insider discussion by any means. See Wikipedia:Community Portal. Wrad (talk) 03:26, 25 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    Status that is conferred by one editor is not a community process; it's one editor's opinion, community of one, perhaps?  :-)) SandyGeorgia (Talk) 03:40, 25 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    That's only the beginning of the story, Sandy. anyone can remove the status if it isn't merited. It is a community process. A non-community process would be one in which one person could promote an article to GA and hold it at GA against the community's wishes. That is just simply not the case at all. See below for an example. Wrad (talk) 04:04, 25 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    I agree with Wrad. The process is a community. Last week, a naive reviewer promoted Literatur und Kritik, an article no better than start-class, to GA. Within minutes of the promotion appearing in the edit summary, four editors pounced and delisted it immediately. People are watching; or, perhaps, I should say a community is watching. Cheers! Wassupwestcoast (talk) 05:27, 25 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  10. Oppose per Collectonian. I confess that I approved an article last year that, in retrospect, should not have been approved. It has since been delisted. Carson 03:41, 25 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    ...and someone else in the community delisted it! There you have it! A community process at work. Different from FA, but it still works. Wrad (talk) 04:06, 25 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    It was delisted a year and a half after I listed it (listed August 2006, delisted December 2007). It felt like just a year ago. Oops. Such a long time span before I was 'caught' by the community is unacceptable. Carson 05:43, 25 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    A year and a half? The criteria have changed so much in that time that I'm thinking your retrospect may be inaccurate. A lot of articles that could be passed without qualm back in '06 wouldn't even come close to the criteria now. --erachima talk 05:47, 25 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  11. Oppose, only because flagged revisions are coming, which will make this moot. The point of a GA sticker would basically be to tell the public that "this article has reached a certain standard", and that's what flags will do, only in a better way, since the version displayed will actually be the very revision that was approved -- as opposed to the GA icon, which would appear and then still leave the article open to vandalism and other bad edits. I'd support the idea otherwise, as I have in the past. Equazcion •✗/C • 04:07, 25 Apr 2008 (UTC)
  12. Oppose. I'm okay with grandfathering in mainspace ornaments on FAs as traditional, but I think we should not encourage the proliferation of new symbols in the mainspace. If we had a GA symbol, why not an A-class symbol as those articles are also reviewed? Or B-class, which was at least assessed. Or DYK? I support GA, A-class, assessments, etc. but think lots of different mainspace ornaments quickly just become sort of ugly and meaningless clutter. --JayHenry (talk) 05:57, 25 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    As I've said above, I do think this is a bit of a red herring: the reason "why not an A-class symbol" is that these are determined by projects, and are part of a different system. The very fact that an article may be simultaneously A-class (for one project) and, say, B-class (for another) immediately militates against the extension of the system of adding these small symbols any further than GA articles. (Again, Geometry guy has a much clearer explanation of the differences here than I do.) --jbmurray (talk|contribs) 08:23, 25 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  13. Oppose (both the GA and FA icons). The "Display an assessment of an article's quality as part of the page header for each article." Gadget in the user preferences does the job in a far better way. The FA and GA icons are there to describe the article - but that's what the talk page is for. The icons are redundant and decorative. 52 Pickup (deal) 12:35, 25 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Neutral

  1. I'm generally in support of adding the GA plus sign on the top right corner of the mainspace, as I've never thought that WP:ASR is a good idea in these cases to begin with. I've found that with a few exceptions, GA tagging has become more consistent, and since perfection is not possible in a process, I can live with the outliers. That said, I think we should wait until Flagged revisions to come forth; at that time, this issue may be moot, or we could even decide to use the tag as some sort of indicator to show the reason why the article was flagged. Titoxd(?!? - cool stuff) 06:11, 25 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    I looked at that page, but didn't really understand it, or its relation to this debate. Could you explain? (Apologies in advance for my obtuseness, if necessary.) --jbmurray (talk|contribs) 08:20, 25 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Comment

Please, add comments here. Cheers! Wassupwestcoast (talk) 19:38, 23 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Out of curiosity, will this be limited to the GA talk, or will an RFC or the like be opened to ensure a wide range of editors are aware of the discussion? Collectonian (talk) 20:55, 23 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
If we have consensus here on the talk page among GA editors, then I think it should be opened up for comment by the rest of the community through an RfC or similar avenue. will381796 (talk) 20:57, 23 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, like anything Wikipedia, it'll have to advance 'up'. Cheers! Wassupwestcoast (talk) 21:08, 23 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I've been wondering: if there was presently no bronze star on FA articles would anyone be arguing in favour of including a bronze star on FA articles? I probably would, so I really can't understand the resistance to recognising the quality of other articles. Seems a bit like deciding to award only gold medals at the Olympics to me. You second and third placers are just losers, b****r off. --Malleus Fatuorum (talk) 22:05, 23 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Second place is first loser! Cheers! Wassupwestcoast (talk) 22:27, 23 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
If we're going to have a GA Green circle, what next? The start "Yellow Flag"? The Stub "Pencil Icon"? I would also have to suggest the B-Class "Orange Triangle" and perhaps an A-Class "Crystal Diamond", since A-class rated articles are so hard to find... —Rob (talk) 20:17, 24 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
As A-class, B-class, etc., are project-specific, then they don't really come into it. (Geometry guy has a much better explanation of the difference between the FA/GA system and the A/B/start system.) --jbmurray (talk|contribs) 23:36, 24 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I placed a notice on this at the Community portal, FYI. VanTucky 18:12, 24 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

  • On "rehashing previous debates." I had a look through the links provided by maclean above. (And I recommend that others do, too.) It actually seems to me that the issue hasn't been seriously revisited for a couple of years now. Even the last deletion review seems to have turned significantly on discussion over here (though I may be misreading that review; it was strangely one-sided compared to the other debates). Also, in that there are two arguments against the proposal:
    • One, that such a symbol consists of "metadata" that is inappropriate in mainspace. Here, however, the consensus is that the FA stars are appropriate, and if a debate is to be "rehashed," it is the debate over the use of those stars, which otherwise is fairly settled.
    • Two, that the GA process is arbitrary, insufficient, unreliable (etc.). Here, the case would be that the GA process has improved in the intervening two years. So this is less a rehashing, than revisiting the GA system two years down the line. Though proponents could perhaps try to demonstrate that the GA process is indeed now much more reliable than it was.
  • There may be other arguments against that I am missing or slighting, but the notion that this debate has been done to death does not, to me at least, hold much water. But as always, I'd welcome correction. --jbmurray (talk|contribs) 23:45, 24 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    It is my perception that there a substantial reactionary body in wikipedia that frequently tries to suppress discussion with the cry "Oh, not this again", without ever engaging their brains before doing so, or considering what may have changed in the interim. --Malleus Fatuorum (talk) 00:04, 25 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    Perhaps tone done the "engaging their brains" comment, Malleus? I can certainly see why it may appear that the issue has been done to death, even though I believe that closer inspection shows that not to be the case. --jbmurray (talk|contribs) 00:53, 25 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    Not my style, I'm afraid. --Malleus Fatuorum (talk) 00:58, 25 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • I have previously objected to the idea of a mainspace GA dot, and to a large extent my objection applies also to the FA star: these are not encyclopedic information, but (as Jbmurray suggests) metadata. I sympathise with editors who want to get rid of all such mainspace tags. From this point of view the main distinction between FAs and GAs is not how reliably good they are, but the basic fact that FAs get featured on the main page: that may not, admittedly, be encyclopedic information from the point of view of pillar one, but it is part of the way this encyclopedia is organised, and all encyclopedias contain metadata of this type (e.g. Encyclopaedia Britannica is divided into the Propaedia, Macropaedia and Micropaedia). However, I'm no longer convinced that this argument is sufficiently strong to oppose the GA dot, given that the FA star is widely accepted. Wikipedia articles are full of metadata, and the dividing line between which metadata are acceptable and which aren't is not straightforward. Consensus on where that dividing line is can change. Geometry guy 00:46, 25 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • If I may respond to that, I'm quite prepared to consider the possibility that the FA star should go, as an alternative to adding the GA dot. What I think hasn't being adequately considered though is which of those options would be the most likely to lead to an overall improvement in the quality of the encyclopedia. Arguments about metadata are interesting, but largely irrelevant, as there is already metadata on the front page, and not just the FA star. --Malleus Fatuorum (talk) 00:56, 25 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

There is a problem with articles dealing with appeal decisions in that there is usually only one source- the official Law Report itself. Hence these articles cannot have "multiple independent sources" per the usual requirement, in fact the official law report is the official source as sanctioned by statute, and is usually reported, if not in BAILII , then in offline Law Reports, which is why we cite these, to satisfy WP:RS and WP:V. I've recently had a couple of articles quick-failed because of this, although they are now restored. Since these articles are of their own type, is there a case for a more focussed GA guideline? Have notified this to Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Law for input. --Rodhullandemu (Talk) 15:50, 10 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Is there no commentary? Off hand, it sounds like the Law Report is some sort of primary source...at least a source everyone refers to. A wikipedia article ought to have commentary of some sort on the source else it is just a mirror of the Law Report. But, I might be misunderstanding. Cheers! Wassupwestcoast (talk) 18:50, 10 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
There will be various commentaries in legal textbooks, but they are only opinions. It's rare that the press comment on the legal issued raised by these cases, because to a lay audience it's just not relevant (and doesn't sell papers). However, as I see it, the article here is meant to be a more accessible version of the law report, suitable for a non-lawyer. --Rodhullandemu (Talk) 18:55, 10 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
But you could include those commentaries / opinions perhaps in a sub-section called commentary which would go a long way to satisfying multiple reliable sources. I'm sort of suspicious of "a more accessible version of the law report, suitable for a non-lawyer" as you say. This sounds like original research in that you are providing an interpretation - simplification - of a primary source. I think it would be best to provide those commentaries. Cheers! Wassupwestcoast (talk) 19:01, 10 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I've just looked at the only criminal law textbook I have to hand, which cites part of a judgement and then says "The law gives the defence (of automatism) a very narrow interpretation, emphasising that there must be a total loss of voluntary control". That doesn't help, and doesn't expand the point of the judgement. So I'm not optimistic on that point. As for original research, every time we write a plot summary of a film or television episode, we are interpreting what should be important for our readers. For a law report, all we should need to do is set out the facts proved, the arguments raised, the decision reached, and the reasons (including precedent) for that decision. More would be useful, but not necessary in my view. For example, R v Hancock was a case linked to a labour dispute, but the legal issues had nothing to do with that; however, the dispute is linked from the article if the reader wants a wider context. But for most appeal decisions, that context is lacking. You see the problem? --Rodhullandemu (Talk) 23:56, 10 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Rodhullandemu, it is key for you to consider that you're participating in a process that is almost entirely checklist driven, as opposed to one involving contextual review or topic-minded insight. In this sense, a good article that you worked on may not be a Good Article, and only you can determine whether this matters to you. Conversations of this sort ("your overview may be original research"—down with encyclopedia articles then, I suppose) make me, for example, stay far away from the majority of "process wonkery" on wikipedia, because process wonks always get lost staring at trees in the forest. Comment from uninvolved –Outriggr § 23:28, 10 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Well, the Wikiproject Law seems remarkably understaffed, probably because activity there is not chargeable to a client, but in terms of UK law, it's a mess of Byzantine proportions. Perhaps there is a law wiki somewhere that appreciates the need for this sort of thing. --Rodhullandemu (Talk) 23:56, 10 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

How do you decide if a case is notable? "The law gives the defence (of automatism) a very narrow interpretation, emphasising that there must be a total loss of voluntary control" seems like the kind of ref you could use to show your summary is accurate and not original research as well as assert notability. You also might ask someone in Category:Wikipedian lawyers, or User talk:Newyorkbrad and User talk:Aboutmovies know a lot about law and about WP. - Peregrine Fisher (talk) 02:38, 11 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Agreed. There are clearly "leading cases" in different areas of law - indeed, one of Lord Denning's early publications as a rising junior barrister was the latest edition of Smith's Leading Cases in Contract. Ways to prove that R. v X or Smith v Jones is a leading (i.e. notable) case would be to show (a) judicial commentary in subsequent cases - important cases get mentioned, followed, distinguished, confined to their facts, disapproved or overruled depending on the circumstances, changes in legal opinion, reassessment of circumstances etc and / or (b) academic commentary in articles and textbooks. It's not just a question of saying that "various commentaries in legal textbooks... are only opinions" since for example, if Archbold for a criminal law case or Chitty on Contract (what, that's a redlink?) for a contract case says that a Court of Appeal decision is right or wrong, that may be "just" an opinion in one sense but it's a very authoritative one and one that may well be followed in later cases on the topic. By using these further sources, the notability of the case can be verified and the requirements of multiple independent sources met. (What do you mean that I can't charge this to a client? We're all paid by the Foundation for editing WP, aren't we?!) BencherliteTalk 23:39, 12 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Ive never understood The point of multiple sourcing for the sack of multiple sourcing. the law report is the bible of law. It ends their, what the law report says, goes. The law report isnt disputed EVER. Besides other sources just copy whats in the Law report anyway. Realist2 (talk) 22:22, 17 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The problem is this, in a nutshell: Wikipedia:OR#Primary.2C_secondary.2C_and_tertiary_sources says

Primary sources that have been published by a reliable source may be used in Wikipedia, but only with care, because it is easy to misuse them. For that reason, anyone—without specialist knowledge—who reads the primary source should be able to verify that the Wikipedia passage agrees with the primary source.

That's good enough for an article, but apparently not good enough for a Good Article. For an article describing a legal decision, the official Law Report (sanctioned by statute) is by definition the source for that article. We are not interpreting the law report, and nor should we, per WP:SYNTH and WP:OR. Any legal textbook that mentions that case uses the law report as the primary source; any opinion which the authors may offer is just that, and nothing more. If all they do is to cite passages from the law report (which very largely is all they do), there is no point citing them because they are no better than we are as secondary sources. We cite the official Law Report on BAILII; that satisfies both WP:RS and WP:V. That should be all that is needed for a GA evaluation as far as sourcing is concerned. --Rodhullandemu (Talk) 01:30, 21 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

How important are images?

Is it worth submitting biographical articles of living persons that don't include images because no free ones can be found? Sarcasticidealist (talk) 00:05, 11 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Yes. Images not being available will not be held against the article. - Peregrine Fisher (talk) 01:45, 11 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I seem to have been running into this issue (and misinterpretations of it) a lot recently, but it's always been a problem. Perhaps we need to make WP:WIAGA criterion 6 clearer, to explicitly state that images are not required? EyeSerenetalk 10:54, 13 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I agree on that, when i first started reviewing i was under the impression a picture WAS needed. Critera 6 should be changed to ..... if pictures are used they must have the correct rational along with suitable captions. Infact i think the whole caption thing also needs clarification. Realist2 (talk) 22:16, 17 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

While images are not necessary for the article, there is a big red flag to look out for. In some biographical articles, a placeholder image is placed in the template if there is no image of the individual. I would personally be very hesitant to pass an article as a GA if it had such a placeholder image in its infobox. It's an issue with criterion #3 of the GA criteria (completeness). Dr. Cash (talk) 22:22, 17 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Since placeholders are in dispute at present, surely it's better to omit an image altogether than have the article failed for incompleteness. I've seen many bios where free images are not available, and therefore lacking from the infobox, but fair-use images have been used, with justification, in the body of the article. --Rodhullandemu (Talk) 22:30, 17 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Agree, an article should not fail over a damn picture if it is ok in everyother way. It would be better to just remove the picture. Im gonna say something controversial, maybe pictures good or bad shouldn't be a part of the GA critera. When people can just remove them to skip critera 6 is it even worth having? Realist2 (talk) 22:34, 17 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I've boldly edited Criterion 6 to emphasize that images criteria apply only when images are available for use. VanTucky 22:39, 17 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

This makes sense to me. Relevant free images should be used if they are available. Non-free images should have fair use rationales. Any other images should be removed. However, if it is reasonable to expect that a free or fair-use image could be found, and the article does not have one, then this is a broadness issue. Geometry guy 22:59, 17 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Looks better to me, VT! I think (relevant) images bring a lot to an article and could indeed be a broadness issue, but we can gently prompt as part of a GA review while making it clear it's not a 'fail' if suitable pics can't be found. I certainly don't think we should ignore images altogether - we can't pass an article as Good if it has, for example, image copyright problems; these are policy voiolations. Next GA newsletter topic...? :) EyeSerenetalk 18:09, 18 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

In my opinion, criterion 6 should be further lowered, so that images are never required for an article to attain GA status. Of course, when images are present, the two sections of criterion 6 should apply as usual. The wording should be made more explicit; something along the lines of "Articles do not need images to attain GA status".

I see no reason to hide my intense dislike of the anti-fair use brigade. Lowering criterion 6 further means I can write GAs without any images, free or otherwise, and thus not need to deal with them.

--J.L.W.S. The Special One (talk) 03:02, 22 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

That would certainly not be my opinion. --Malleus Fatuorum (talk) 03:14, 22 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I definitely agree. I don't care what your view on fair use images on Wikipedia is, but if there are free images readily available, then the article is not complete without them. bibliomaniac15 Do I have your trust? 03:21, 22 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Completeness is not part of the GA criteria; broadness is. Your argument would be a good reason to require images in FAs, but not GAs. Note that I focus on Singapore-related articles; finding appropriate images for them is difficult (and finding appropriate free images next to impossible). I thought GA should help fight systemic bias, not worsen it. --J.L.W.S. The Special One (talk) 08:54, 22 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Please don't apply one criterion to the interpretation of another. My feeling is that the current image criteria reflect very well the requirement that all images should be free or equipped with fair use rationales, against the wish that GAs should have good images where they are available. Geometry guy 22:39, 22 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Pictures aren't important. WP:NOT a children's book. Blnguyen (bananabucket) 05:44, 23 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

It isn't, but I have not found any paragraph of WP:NOT which supports your case. Geometry guy 20:56, 23 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Idea for sections

See WT:FA. Simply south (talk) 21:14, 20 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I believe this idea has now been withdrawn. Geometry guy 22:33, 22 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Curious question

I'm just curious — how many former GA's have wound up deleted? I know Zig Zag (character) (yeah, there I go, adding yet another red link) was once ranked GA (although apparently it was totally devoid of third party sources at the time), and it has since been deleted. Have any others wound up deleted like this? Ten Pound Hammer and his otters • (Broken clamshells•Otter chirps) 14:27, 21 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Torchic (which was an FA, but still...) Sceptre (talk) 08:58, 22 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
A list of both FA and GAs that have been deleted would be amusing! Cheers! Wassupwestcoast (talk) 19:31, 23 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Former FAs are at WP:FFA (as you can see, there are no redlinks). SandyGeorgia (Talk) 03:34, 25 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Milestones

As I'm sure many editors have noticed, we crossed the 4000 good articles mark very recently. We are also about to cross the 2:1 GA to FA ratio, which I think is an important symbol of the mission of GA to get as much of the encyclopedia as possible up to a good standard, while accepting that this daunting task will always result in some imperfections. Geometry guy 07:16, 23 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The 2:1 milestone should be a Signpost article ...like the 2000 FA article. Cheers! Wassupwestcoast (talk) 19:29, 23 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I think that is right, but I also think such an article might be a great opportunity to present some mutual respect between GA and FA. There have been disagreements in past, but there have been very few such disagreements recently. There are probably still a few editors on each side who still enjoy making snipes, but my impression is that most mainstream editors support both processes, and I would encourage those editors to make their voices heard. The two processes have different goals. GA does not attempt to define our best articles, in the way that FA does; instead it attempts to provide a way to make many articles on WP meet certain minimal requirements: it doesn't always succeed immediately in doing this, but it has a flexible process of listing and delisting that is designed to reach consensus in the end. This is a different process from FA, where it is important that the quality stamp of approval really means that the article has been approved by the community. Both processes are extremely important to the quality of Wikipedia. Lets celebrate them both. Geometry guy 20:30, 23 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
From what I've seen recently, the snipes are really coming from less than a handful of editors (and they usually follow on the heels of a new editor suggesting some part of FA needs to look some part of GA, and responses to that being misunderstood or misinterpreted. A lot of it would probably stop if some editors would stop expecting FA to behave like GA.) I agree that mainstream editors support both processes, and that both have a place, but I'd add that most editors also recognize that a GA is only as good as the GA reviewer, and we all know who the good ones are. (I wish y'all would take this bull by the horns; as long as the FAC archives give you the data showing that one-third of failed FAs are GAs with non-reliable sources, you all have a hook you can use to get those reviewers to be more thorough, which will help raise standards and raise respect.) G guy, do you want to allocate a Dispatch post to the ratio issue (we're starting to get backed up on requests for space there, so you need to speak up and sign up and get a date). SandyGeorgia (Talk) 03:32, 25 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I'd be interested to know how many "articles" are disambiguations and lists. The "1 in 387" claim in the header has always struck me as an incomplete picture; accounting neither the number of eligible articles or the number of FLs. --JayHenry (talk) 05:45, 25 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

For those intertested....

The voting going on above, I hunted down an article that had a GA symbol in the top right corner (And no, I didn't put it in there, rather took it out ;)) Obviously you can use the show preview button, but.... Milk’s Favorite Cookie (Talk) 01:08, 25 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

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