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"Reportedly"
"Reportedly" is used about a dozen times too many. This article reads like a 10th-grade research paper.
The alleged legendary aspects of the reported history of George apparently are not recorded in this probable entry. Why not? Saint George as it currently stands suppresses all the miraculous elements that were the actual basis for the historical George cult, so popular and widespread in medieval times. The alleged entry reportedly reports only those selected elements of the George legend that might pass for actual history. Some might possibly allege that this is misleading, and not up to Wikipedia's NPOV standards. Wetman 08:31, 20 Jan 2004 (UTC)
What if the dragon is just a sinonim for like an army or something?
And the folks just used it to shorten the 'Hey dude George defated the huge army of the someguys in combat!' to 'hey George killed a dragon!Hehe COOL!'
Actually, many hold the view that the said ‘dragon’ was indeed a metaphor for Islamic hordes. St. George was a Christian Saint because he (the arm under his control) slaughtered the Islamic Dragon so to speak. I also agree that the word 'reportedly' is used too often.
Islam did not make an appearance on the world's stage until the 7th Century, AD, while St. George lived in the 3rd Century, or thereabouts. Thus, unless you refer to the fact that the Crusading armies took St. George as one of their chief patrons, there is no way that he "slaughtered any Islamic hordes." --TheTriumvir05:22, 26 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
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I agree that "Reportedly" is used too much. Let´s make it better? Any additional information is either welcome.
TonyJeff
For some really indepth study of St George and the convoluted history of his cult. I found a great source in Christopher Walter's book "The Warrior Saints in Byzantine Art and Traditions"
Arian Bishop of Alexandria?
Edward Gibbon was of the opinion that the original man on whom the legend was based was not quite so holy. He states, quite confidently, that during the Arian controversy, when the Arians had the upper hand in the battle to define the doctrine of the church, Athanasius, bishop of Alexandria, was sticking to his anti-arian guns and making waves. He was thrown out by the powers that be and replaced by the Arian George of Cappadocia who Gibbon portrays as a money-grabbing, power hungry thug. Although he was unpopular with everyone it was the pagan residents of the city who rose up against him when they were encouraged by hearing that they had a pagan emperor in Julian the Apostate (as he is now known). Being killed by pagans meant that he was a martyr and his behaviour while alive was forgotten.
All of this may of course be rubbish - Gibbon may be a great and influential historian but his word is not gospel truth. So does anyone know if this version has any sources to back it up or was it nonsense which has been debunked over the last two centuries. --Spondoolicks21:10, 25 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Athanasius was replaced by a Gregory of Cappadocia who does not have his own article yet. Gibbon had apparently confused the two Cappadocians. User:Dimadick
I was surprised by the fact that Gibbon's account isn't mentioned at all. I thought he based his account on that by Ammianus? Jimg (talk) 20:34, 23 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I really think that Gibbon's account should be sumarized and included. Whether or not there are questions surrounding his conclusions, he is/was a highly influential historian and his account has been widely read. I am tempted to add a short section. Jimg (talk) 13:36, 12 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
In the Muslim world
St. George is also honored in the Muslim world under the name Al-Khidr.
St George as England's Patron Saint
Please could "superdude99" explain why my contribution regarding Ken Livingstone's refusal to allow a St. George's celebration in London has been deleted twice. This has been widely reported in the British press (both The Times and The Telegraph have given details) and I have written to the Mayor himself about it, not that he ever bothered to reply. It seems to me to be both a relevant and accurate addition.
The paragraph is portraying the Mayor of London in a biased light.
"In recent years demands" - who is demanding?
"have been turned down by the London Mayor" - I appreciate that you have tried contacting the Mayor to find an answer but without knowing the full story it is a far stretch to say that he personally turned it down. And if he did then I would suggest finding a reference of him doing so.
So I have amended the paragraph to remove both the reference to St Patrick (what conclusion is to be drawn from London celebrating one particular patron saint to another?) and to the current mayor (due to the reasons provided above). The only factual and relevant information that we can include here is that London does not currently celebrate this saints day. --NHawes12:12, 23 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]
How exactly is London supposed to celebrate St. George's Day? The day isn't a public holiday anywhere in theUK- surely it would be up to the government in Westminster to declare the day a Bank Holiday and then let various municipalities hold some sort of celebration if they wanted to. The idea of Ken Livingstone, or any London mayor, having a big parade going along by the Thames on a working week day is ridiculous. And how would we even celebrate St. George's day? Are there any traditions associated with the day? Is there a history of celebrations? Or is this just some silly attempt by hysterical journalists to create a story and blabber on about "politcally correct" attacks on British values?
St George as England's 'national protector'
I have the gravest doubt regarding the text here: "On June 2 1893, Pope Leo XIII demoted St George as Patron Saint for the English, relegating him to the secondary rank of 'national protector' and replaced him with St Peter as the Patron Saint of England. The change was solemnly announced by Cardinal Herbert Vaughan in the Brompton Oratory. This papal pronouncement served to exclude the Catholic Church in England from a day which is part of English tradition". I can't find any external verification for it. JohnHarris10:42, 23 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Saint George is the patron of Catalonia as you can read in the article.
The feast in Catalonia is to be the national day of lovers (like Valentine's day) but, recently, is being forgotten because of the international celebration of the 14th of February and because the same 23 of April is the UNESCO International day of Book and copyright. On that, it should be added that also Inca Garcilaso de la Vega and Josep Pla died that same day, although the last one died on 1981 and not on 1616 like Shakespeare, Cervantes and the first one.
In Catalonia, the legend tells that from the blood of the dragon grew a red rose which he gave to the princess, and that's why in Catalonia men give red roses to women. People give books to each other because of the International day of Book, but not because of Saint George's day. And, if I am not wrong, we do not say he cut the dragon's head off but he sticked his lancein his heart.
Other Saint Georges?
Wasn't there also another George who was matryed trying to aid Paul's escape from Damascus? I'm pretty sure that there were other St. George's in antiquity, as well as others more recent than the current one. If there are, I'll be happy to make a dismabiguation. Let me know on my talk page...--V. Joe07:51, 14 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Beefed up the intro
The introduction looked very small in comparison to most other articles, so I added a bit.
I've also added a line that says "The flag of Saint George is now probably most visible when flown by supporters of England sporting teams." but I'm fairly sure that will be controversial. Maybe it shouldn't be there, but I think it's true. Kayman1uk09:05, 7 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Comic Book Reference
"A comic book, Aliens vs. Predator Annual #1, retold the story with the "dragon" of the legend revealed to be a Yautja, or Predator."
Well, I'm going to continue summarising edits here even if no-one else wants to any more. Given that George seems to have an astonishingly wide range of patronage, it's worth drawing attention to that diverse group in the intro.
Given that there is a main page dedicated to George and the Dragon, the amount of space dedicated to analysis of the story/myth/allegory here seemed excessive. I've thinned out that section considerably.
I accept that a significant amount of effort was put into this section by several people, and I would encourage them to merge their work into the relevant page, rather than lose it.
The approach I took to eliminating sentences was essentially (and completely subjectively) to keep what I thought were the most common/accessible references e.g. I kept Greek myths over Germanic and Indian ones, simply because the Greek ones tend to have filtered through into the English language a bit more. Let's discuss. Kayman1uk12:31, 13 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]
removing the Germanic and Vedic myths kinda misses the point; they showed that the dragon slaying myth is a pan-Indo-European tradition. The best way to illustrate that is to give examples from all branches of the family. --Krsont12:43, 14 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]
That's a fair point but I think including further examples just expands the analysis of the myth on a page that should be about George. I'll have a go at incorporating your "pan-Indo-European" tradition comment, mention Germanic and Vedic myths (without being specific) and remove one of the greek ones to prevent the section growing again. Hope that sounds reasonable. Kayman1uk15:18, 15 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Someone written down on this section and I qoute "And he smells like a big ball of poo."
Countries and cities
As many countries and cities have George as patron saint, I deleted the three that were mentioned in the lead, for NPOV. --Matthead21:15, 28 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]
It was part of a list unattached to prose, likely put there to attact search-engines. I don't think this qualifies as confirmation. I'm skeptical on the name with this lack of refs. I'll keep looking.
There is no name given to the dragon anywhere on the web or in any of the books in Google books. There are lots of mirrored versions copying this article on the web and it looks like the only people naming this dragon is whoever first claimed its name was Stihdjia on this page. In essence this wikipedia article is inventing a name instead of encyclopedicly reporting a name. There is no source claiming this name anywhere, so asserting the name is Stihdjia is as frivilous as naming it Godzilla.--Wowaconia20:11, 20 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]
St. George was born in Cappadocia and died in Lydda
This article has it backwards, so I am modifying it.
I have deleted the unsourced, unwikified personal essay that was anonymously entered. Much of it is already in the article, and the potted hisory notes are irrelevant to George and treated in their own Wikipedia articles. Please look at the [deleted text here] and see whether there is anything that can be given a source and added back to the article. --Wetman18:37, 4 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Canada
I'm not sure that St George is the patron saint of Canada; I thought that he was some French dude, but I may be wrong. Any ideas? Poojean16:16, 12 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I'm not russian, but I know that "St George killing the dragoon" is featured on Moscow's emblem (very similar to the icon from Novgorod added in the article). The latter is itself featured in the Russian Federation's one, as St George is Patron Saint of both Russia and its capital city.
Serbia
In the Serbian Orthodox Church St. George is a Patron Saint of many families and has many churches and monastaries named after him.
Serbia should be mentioned in this article.
I've copied the following QA from the Humanities Reference Desk. Please note in particular the concerns over the contention that St. George was 'replaced' as the patron saint of England by the Pope in 1893. A citation request was put against this assertion, though no response has been forthcoming to date. Does anyone have a legitimate source here? I intend to leave this for a day or two, and if nothing is forthcoming I think it best if I remove the point altogether. Clio the Muse22:30, 4 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Actually, contrary to the point made in the Wikipedia piece on England and St. George, traces of the cult date right back to Anglo-Saxon times. He appears as early as the ninth century in rituals at Durham, and in a tenth century martyrology. There is evidence, moreover, of pre-Conquest foundations dedicated to St. George: at Fordingham in Dorset, at Thetford, Southwark and Doncaster. So he was already familiar to the English well before the Crusades, though it is not until the reign of Edward III that emerges as the most important national saint, replacing Edward the Confessor It is probably more accurate to say that the cult was identified specifically with the monarchy, rather than England as a whole. Edward I was the first king to display St. George's banner alongside those of Edmund the Martyr and St. Edward.
By the reign of Edward III he had definately emerged as a 'god of battles', in much the same fashion as Saintiago Matamoros in Spain. In 1351 it was written "The English nation...call upon Saint George, as being their special patron, especially in war." In this regard he was certainly more appealing than the unwarlike Confessor or St. Edmund, who had been defeated and subsequently killed by the Danes. But with the succession of Richard II George once again slipped down the ranks. Richard had little of his grandfather's warlike ambitions, and returned to the veneration of the two native saints. George was called back to national prominence during the Wars of the Roses, when his name was invoked by both sides in the contest. It was also at this time that his cult spread across the nation at large. Almost a hundred wall paintings featuring the saint date from the fifteenth century, almost always showing him in combat with the dragon. He also survives in pilgrim badges. His secular importance was finally confirmed by the English Reformation; for he alone survived the suppression of the cult of saints, which not even the Virgin herself had been able to do.
Now, I have a question. I see that a claim is made in the Wikipedia page that St. George was 'demoted' by Pope Leo XIII in 1893 as the patron saint of England and replaced by Saint Peter! I had no idea that Popes were ever in the business of promoting and demoting national saints. Besides, nobody seems to have told the English! A citation request has been put against this statement; but these things, as I am sure many of you are aware, can hang around forever and a day. I need to know if this is true or not, or if it is just a subtle piece of vandalism? Clio the Muse02:20, 2 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Curious. I've never heard of this, Clio. Saint Peter#Patronage makes no mention of it, and googling produces only one source - our article. I suspect it's either vandalism, or a genuine mistake on the part of the editor who posted this. -- JackofOz02:36, 2 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Well, it's the Pope's business who he has as England's patron saint, just as it's the Pope's business who he has as saints at all. I could understand if such a thing happened, and I have often heard it claimed, since George is fairly mythological and the emphasis lately (in the Catholic Church sense of 'lately') has been on people who pretty definitely existed. You can, of course, have anyone you like as your patron saint, and declare anyone you like to be a saint, but how many people will follow you? If the government wanted to declare someone as a patron saint of England, they could. Quite what this would mean, I don't know. To be honest, your comment is really quite odd Duncan. Skittle23:32, 2 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
You are, of course, quite right, Skittle: that saints 'made' by the church can also be 'unmade', if that makes sense. But I do not believe that the Vatican has ever sanctioned, or created, national saints: saints who were intended to be identified with a given country. Patron saints are created for historical and political reasons; so it was with James and Spain; and so it was with George and England. Even now, living in a secular world, English people, whether Catholic, Protestant or of no religion at all, understand the significance and symbolism of St. George and England. I confess that I myself have become more and more aware over the last few years of a growing sense of 'Englishness', brought on in part by Scottish and Welsh devolution: the English flag is ever more evident and people now celebrate St. George's Day with an a new enthusiasm; I do, and so do my friends. The Pope may demote or promote all the saints he wishes; but he could not end the link between George and England. So once again I pose my question: where does the contention about Leo XIII come from? I now believe this to be quite spurious. Clio the Muse00:39, 3 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, I see what you mean. It's just that, since the whole deal of 'official' saints and patron saints is a Catholic thing, to say it's none of the Pope's business is really quite odd. That George is popularly considered the patron saint of England is, of course, unaffected and people are free to make their mascots what they want. Who the English have as their 'mascot' patron saint by no means has to match anything any church says, but what the Catholic Church says about these things is the church's business. I have often heard that many saints were 'removed' in the last century or so for being mythological, and that some were restored. However, I have never seen any authoritive evidence that this was the case. So it wouldn't surprise me, but it seems unsupported. Skittle12:37, 3 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
The Catholic Encyclopedia calls him patron of England in the very first sentence of its article on Saint George,[3] while the Catholic Community Forum lists England as one of the beneficiaries of George's extensive patronage.[4] While not spealing ex cathedra, they are generally reliable sources in doctrinary matters. --Lambiam17:56, 2 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Perhaps Duncan has it in mind that "The Bishop of Rome hath no jurisdiction in this realm of England" - Article thirty-seven of the Thirty-Nine Articles of 1563, which still have the force of law so far as the Church of England is concerned. Lambiam has raised a real doubt as to whether Pope Leo XIII did downgrade George from the Roman Catholic point of view. The Catholic Encyclopedia postdates Leo. I see someone has added the {{Fact}} template to that statement in the Saint George article, to challenge it, and I hope someone will get to the bottom of this for us. Xn400:41, 3 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
The other part of the equation is that Pope John Paul II is supposed to have restored St George as patron saint in 2000. Does anyone remember anything about this in the media at that time? I certainly don't, and I think it's something that would have been widely reported in the anglophone world. Google produces nothing about it. The edit that's sparked this discussion is this one, from almost a year ago. Amazing that this hasn't been challenged till now. The anonymous editor only ever made a handful of WP edits - all in September 2006 - then got pissed off by something, and has never come back. -- JackofOz13:48, 3 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I would not wish this issue to pass by default, and I do not personally believe that the citation request will ever be answered. We are now in a position where people could claim that St. Peter is the patron saint of England because the Pope and Wikipedia say so; and as we know both are infallible! So, how should I proceed? Would it be best to put this whole discussion on the article's talk page with an introductory comment, leaving it for a day or so for a possible response, and then making the changes? Clio the Muse23:53, 3 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
San Giorgio (St.George) is also the patron saint of the italian city of Ferrara, where the former 10th century cathedral and the splendid new 12th century basilique cathedral were built and named after Him.
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Some sources put his birth place as Coventry (mostly English ballads), however others put it as Cappadocia (notably, The Golden Legend), where his father came from.
I've edited to include the ambiguity over his birthplace, as there is probably at least as much weight toward it being Cappadocia than Coventry, and the Golden Legend is quite a notable version of the St George legend. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.194.30.174 (talk) 05:12, 2 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Did this guy even exist?
I don't get it. The article apparently has a concrete date for birth and death, but then goes on to treat the guy as a fictitious character. I came here looking for his real name, expecting to find "born as Such and Such" (presumably not an Englishman with the modern name of George) and got absolutely nowhere. What is fact and what is fiction needs to be separated, as it is currenly very ambigious.
