Talk:September 11 attacks

The most commonly used name for this is 9/11

Even in the UK, where our dates are written the other way around, I think most people will know this as 9/11. It's the most commonly used term, which is what decides the name of a wikipedia article. Other terms become redirects. So, how did this article about 9/11 avoid being titled 9/11 ? No-one is going to put "september 11 2001 attacks" into the search bar, they're going to put 9/11. Feel free to post to my talk page instead of here if this is a complete noob question where this talk page is concerned.:) Sticky Parkin 12:23, 8 August 2008 (UTC)

Nobody is going to bite your head off for asking a reasonable question in good faith (I hope!). I would not object to the article being moved to 9/11 attacks, although I am not 100% sure about the best punctuation to use (9-11?) - so let's see what other editors have to say. SHEFFIELDSTEEL^TALK 13:09, 8 August 2008 (UTC)

Archive 3 is solely dedicated to this discussion. People felt '9/11' was too informal so they changed the title to a more "appropriate" 'September 11, 2001 attacks'. I have no issue changing it to 9/11, but I think we'd need to do things as formally as possible using straw polls and have a broad discussion. -- Veggy (talk) 16:02, 8 August 2008 (UTC)Ice Cold Beer (talk)

Yup, too informal. By the way, Stick Parkin, if a reader searches for 9/11, then they are redirected to this article. Ice Cold Beer (talk) 03:57, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

We have articles titled 9/11 Commission and 9/11 Commission Report because that is the common names for those things, which everyone uses, even though more formal names exist. "September 11, 2001 attacks" (with however many commas) is not the formal name of anything, and it's not the common name for the event. Jonathunder (talk) 06:19, 10 August 2008 (UTC)

User deleting wiki-links, without using talk?

I didn't realize this was allowed, but oh well. Someone wants to delete a wiki-link saying its unrelated, or something. It's not clear what exactly. But that is why we have talk. I would like to see some sort of explanation before people delete my good-faith edits. I mean, I have yet to see even a proper edit summary on the subject. 72.0.180.2 (talk) 08:10, 10 August 2008 (UTC)

I think it was deleted because the advanced-knowledge thing is seen as a subarticle to 9/11 conspiracy theories. -- Veggy (talk) 08:11, 10 August 2008 (UTC)

I am the user in question, and I don't see anything wrong with my actions. I provided a solid reason for my actions in the edit summary.[2] Ice Cold Beer (talk) 03:38, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

Using references to determine improved lead sentence.

Currently, there is a discussion on the use of a comma in the lead sentence.

I have found a reference to back up my suggestion that the current lead sentence is flawed and must be replaced. The lead currently read "The September 11, 2001 attacks (often referred to as 9/11) were a series of coordinated suicide attacks by al-Qaeda upon the United States." while the new consensus version removed by the page protecting administrator was "The September 11, 2001, attacks (often referred to as 9/11) were a series of coordinated suicide attacks by al-Qaeda upon the United States."

The use of the word attack to define attacks is wrong per this reference, http://owl.english.purdue.edu/owl/resource/622/01/

Since there is a reliable sourced reference, the lead sentence must go. Let's open the floor to suggestions. Presumptive (talk) 03:24, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

1. The September 11, 2001, attacks (often referred to as 9/11) were a series of coordinated suicide missions by al-Qaeda in the Eastern United States."

• Closely follows consensus version with a correction to avoid defining attacks by the word attack.

2. The September 11, 2001, attacks (often referred to as 9/11) were four simultaneous al-Qaeda suicide missions involving hijacker commercial airliners used against high profile targets in the Eastern United States.

• Trying to follow more closely the advice given by the Purdue reference.— Preceding unsigned comment added by Presumptive (talk • contribs)

Did you really need to make a new section to repeat exactly what I said weeks ago about the comma. Really... -- Veggy (talk) 03:39, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

I'm going to repeat what I've written previously on this subject. "We are not saying that the September 11, 2001 attacks were a series of attacks on September 11, 2001, which would be using the subject to define itself. We are saying that the September 11, 2001 attacks were a series of coordinated suicide attacks... We are describing the type of attacks that occurred on that date, which is acceptable." Please stop, Presumptive. Many people have told you that there is nothing wrong with the first sentence. This is becoming disruptive. Ice Cold Beer (talk) 03:45, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

Your use of the word disruptive is similar to the Red Scare of the 1950's where anyone you didn't like was called a Communist. Falsely calling someone disruptive is disruptive. I read a very good reference on writing style and I propose improvement. Note that I am not proposing conspiracy theories or denying that it (WTC) exists. Nobody should oppose improvement in prose. My suggestions are merely prose improvement with NO political changes. Presumptive (talk) 04:07, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

'Disruptive' is accurate. See WP:POINT. Peter Grey (talk) 04:14, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

Denying the World Trade Center ever existed? That'd be a first. Way to go with that ad hominem about being falsely accused. Adds NOTHING to why the lead sentence needs to be changed. Appeal to pathos much? "Nobody should oppose improvement in prose" <-- Logical fallacy; no said they were, we just oppose your so-called "improvements". -- Veggy (talk) 04:53, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

• People identify the event by using the date. That turns the date into a pseudo proper name. Unfortunately, that puts various rules of style into conflict, and thus any permutation is going to be a compromise (without even getting into the fact that the English Wikipedia covers several variations on language, style, etc.). The existing formula works well enough. Peter Grey (talk) 04:14, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

Certainly, English is not so flawed as to have no solution to satisfy all rules of style. If we think hard enough, we CAN come up with a lead sentence that doesn't violate rules of style. Presumptive (talk) 04:29, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

We've all thought hard and feel the current one (with the comma after the date) is the best. -- Veggy (talk) 04:53, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

I note that the administrator who changed the lead sentence didn't actually write what Presumptive wrote. They actually wrote "The {{pagename}} (often referred to as 9/11)..." which makes an interesting argument: The lead sentence should begin by defining the article subject, which is the title of the article. If the comma should be introduced for grammatical reasons, then, why not introduce it into the title of the article, and let the template take care of the lead sentence? SHEFFIELDSTEEL^TALK 05:41, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

Agreed. The title should have proper grammar. Ice Cold Beer (talk) 05:44, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

There's more than one correct formula - that's been the whole point. Peter Grey (talk) 16:45, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

Just a note on templates. Templates in patterns in general have a use, but not everything can or should follow a pattern. A template is often useful, but they shouldn't be used when they are not useful. It is fine to have the title without the comma, and the first line with the comma.

Also, on templates, I often see this page linked the following way, eventhough it's poor grammar:

September 11, 2001 attacks

If it's used in a sentence, it should be linked the following way:

September 11, 2001, attacks

Patterns are there to help you, but not everything fits a pattern, or should be forced into one. —Slipgrid (talk) 18:58, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

As I stated earlier, every American style manual I've consulted, including the Chicago Manual of Style, Section 6.46, states that the year in the American mm/dd/yyyy format is parenthetical and should therefore be set off by commas (e.g., September 11, 2001, attacks). I won't belabor the point. If the consensus is to keep the title of this page punctuated as it is now, I'll live with it. However, Peter Gray insists that "various rules of style" are implicated here and that there is "more than one correct formula" (i.e., that "September 11, 2001 attacks" is equally correct). I'm genuinely curious if there is any authority for that proposition. Does anyone have any kind of authoritative style guide that advocates NOT setting off the year in the American mm/dd/yyyy format with two commas? Thanks Lowell33 (talk) 19:21, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

Why don't we just move the damn article to include the comma and be done with it? -- Veggy (talk) 19:24, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

I wouldn't mind calling the article September 11 attacks but that's just me :-) Perhaps a straw poll / discussion? SHEFFIELDSTEEL^TALK 19:36, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

While younger, U.S. editors will undoubtedly associate that title with 9/11, as is, older, international editors may connect it to the 1973 Chilean coup d'état; although it redirects to 9/11 as is. -- Veggy (talk) 20:19, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

I would absolutely support September 11 attacks.Lowell33 (talk) 21:12, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

The current title is fine. I see no reason to change it now.--MONGO 00:16, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

I propose this article be renamed. The current title isn't specific enough towards what the article is about as it could refer to any random attack that took place on 09/11/2001.

I suggest something along the lines of "The Terrorist Attacks of September 11th, 2001".

Yey or Ney?

81.151.140.33 (talk) 23:34, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

Since I'm supposed to comment on the content, not the contributor, I'll censor my snide comments and just ask the anonymous user to read WP:TITLE. -- Veggy (talk) 00:17, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

I'm sorry that I'm not as au fait with Wikipedia policy as you are. Obviously, you have missed the article, 'Assume Good Faith'. I suggest you read through a little more thoroughly in future. Have a great day! 81.151.140.33 (talk) 09:15, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

I think you mean assume good faith. Have a great day yourself. -- Veggy (talk) 19:35, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

A title is not a sentence & is not subject to the same rules of style. The year is not parenthetical to the title--JimWae (talk) 08:42, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

Why would titles be subject to different rules of grammar than any other text? Is there any rationale for that? Also, "parenthetical" in this context does not mean unimportant or irrelevant. It is parenthetical in the same way that Illinois is parenthetical in the phrase "Chicago, Illinois, is a large city."Lowell33 (talk) 19:12, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

Ah, where'd you arrive at that conclusion? -- Veggy (talk) 19:35, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

One obvious difference: titles do not need periods at the end. They are not sentences. I am not saying titles never get any punctuation, just that they differ from sentences, and that what might be parenthetical in a sentence, need not be so in a phrase --JimWae (talk) 20:44, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

Btw, here is an example by a learned editor that does not add the extra comma even to the SENTENCE: http://www.yale.edu/lawweb/avalon/sept_11/s1941_is.htm --JimWae (talk) 20:49, 19 August 2008 (UTC) and another: http://www.gwu.edu/~icdrm/publications/nsf911/attacks.html --JimWae (talk) 20:54, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

• Search for "the January 1, 1863" and "the July 4, 1776" and we will find only a few instances that add the extra comma. We would not even be having this discussion if european format were used, as in "the 1 January 1863" and "the 4 July 1776" (or ISO 1863-01-01 and 1776-07-04 ... and modified ISO: 1863-JAN-01 and 1776-JUL-04). Grammar rules follow the customs of learned writers. Style guides differ from grammar rules - they are guides, not dictates (unless otherwise stated for in-house uniformity, and may still alow for reasonable exceptions)--JimWae (talk) 21:28, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

Finding examples that don't include the comma doesn't in any way negate the rule. Like finding someone who says 2+2=5 is a reason not to come to the conclusion that it equals four. Read. -- Veggy (talk) 21:41, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

This is not "finding someone", this is finding a predominant usage among learned writers --JimWae (talk) 00:36, 20 August 2008 (UTC)

Sometimes I imagine I'm typing to chimps on the other end of Wikipedia. That's the only possible reason I give myself for why a user completely ignores the fact that stylistic guidelines set by the Chicago Manual of Style, among many sources—reputable guides to the English language, are so quickly tossed aside when so-called "learned" writers neglect some of these rules. If "learned" writers began omitting commas and writing run-on sentences with spllign mistaikes then I suppose these users would be more than happy to include these errors in their writing. Unfortunately for these users, Wikipedia follows its own guidelines which incidentally suggest the aforementioned stylistic guides.

Here, if that was too long for you:

-- Veggy (talk) 03:02, 20 August 2008 (UTC)

It is "the few" who add the extra comma. Is that clear enough for YOU, without insult? --JimWae (talk) 07:18, 20 August 2008 (UTC)

Ah yes, because two authors form the bulk of contemporary English literature. And even if they did, tell me again how that supersedes stylistic guidelines—I don't believe you've addressed that glaring hole in your argument. Remember, if the majority believe lazer beams from outer space toppled the Twin Towers, it doesn't make it so. -- Veggy (talk) 07:33, 20 August 2008 (UTC)

Did you do the search? Perhaps you should remember that style guides do not dictate what the "rules" should be; the rules follow what the majority of learned writers do. The Chicago Manual of Style also particularly notes that the use of the extra comma when the date is used as an adjective is awkward. ( http://www.chicagomanualofstyle.org/ch05/ch05_sec079.html ) It recommends avoiding that construction, and while removing the year would avoid that problem, objections have been raised to doing that (due to concerns that it might be confused with attacks on September 11th in other places and/or other years past or future). The title with an extra comma would be even more awkward than the sentence with one. Renaming the article to "September 11 attacks" would be less awkward than "September 11, 2001, attacks", and the slight risk of ambiguity is preferable & more easily resolved than such awkwardness would be. I cannot believe so much energy is being devoted to this when the majority of learned writers do not observe the rule as presented in the style guide. One function of Style Guides is to help writers reduce awkward constructions, and I have to wonder how long it might be before this awkward consistency gives way to recognition of an exception for dates used as adjectives, when the construction is entrenched in the language. Meanwhile, style guides are guides, not rulebooks. However, if consensus is that, despite awkwardness, we MUST follow the style guide on this, avoiding the construction (by removing the year) is preferable. I think the consensus, however, has been that it is OK without the extra comma. --JimWae (talk) 08:19, 20 August 2008 (UTC)

--Tarage (talk) 08:37, 20 August 2008 (UTC)

The link doesn't work for me. Regardless, you've failed to make your case that, as written, the comma doesn't belong. Instead, you've begun railing straw man-like about the article title itself. If you want to change it, go for it. If not, put the comma in. The Manual does think the current wording is awkward. Only JimWae would think two authors form the "majority of learned writers". I think you should read a little more. Oh, and like the User:Presumptive debacle, one user doesn't determine consensus. Nor is JimWae an authority on the modern English language by far. -- Veggy (talk) 16:47, 20 August 2008 (UTC)

Why do you persist in making this a personal battle? Stick to the issues. I still see no evidence you have done the searches. To use the article link, I had to start a 30-day free trial. The argument that the year is parenthetical is NOT presented in the Chicago MoS - no rationale is given at all (other than an implied consistency). The year is neither parenthetical nor appositive - else it would be so in other date-styles. The comma after the year appears to be a generalization from other sentence structures where the comma after the year has a function. In this case, however, it is similar to writing "The old, yellow, dog ran across the dry, brown, plain". The extra comma breaks the forward-looking adjective apart from the noun it modifies (this the Chicago MoS does so acknowledge - Btw, those sections say NOTHING about the current "wording", but rather restrict the remarks to the punctuation). While disagreements with the Chicago MoS certainly cannot be settled here, absent "rules" from other MoS, and with apparent consensus that both the sentence & the title are OK without the extra comma, it is time to bring this discussion to a close. --JimWae (talk) 17:38, 20 August 2008 (UTC)

Some people have to play their little games, I suppose. Here is where editors agreed to the fact that a comma was necessary after the date. The year is parenthetical. If you want more evidence, see this, this, this, and this. Now by all means lecture me about how I didn't do my research. If we changed the format in any way (to 'Sept. 11', to '11 Sep. 01', to '9/11/01') it wouldn't be an issue, but you're arguing that the guidelines in place can be tossed aside because two authors neglect to follow them. I'm not sure where you developed the messianic view that PhDs are infallible, but clearly this isn't so. Commas are still used, according to this, even when the date is an adjective. (Though this is delving deep into the usage guidelines). It think our discussion has made it abundantly clear that a new title is desperately needed to avoid confusion. Also, I've never called 9/11 the 'September 11, 2001, attacks' in common usage. '9/11', while appropriate, is a little too informal. Here's what I get:

• "September 11, 2001" - For reference (1,200,000 hits)[3]
• "September 11, 2001, attacks" - Current with comma (435,000 hits)[4]

• "September 11, 2001, attack" - (78,500 hits)[5]

• "September 11" - Only for reference (40,600,000 hits)[6]

• "September 11 attacks" - (1,260,000 hits)[7]
• "September 11 attack" - (155,000 hits)[8]
• "September 11th attacks" - (224,000 hits)[9]
• "September 11th attack" - (66,200 hits)[10]

• "9/11" - (194,000,000 hits)[11]

• "9/11 attacks" - (2,090,000 hits)[12]
• "9/11 attack" - (418,000 hits)[13]

• "11 September 2001" - (342,000 hits)[14]

• "11 September 2001 attacks" - (78,000 hits)[15]
• "11 September 2001 attack" - (1,800 hits)[16]

Let's get behind one and move it already. -- Veggy (talk) 18:48, 20 August 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for linking to that discussion, VegitaU. I cited several more style guides there. Anyway, we reached a consensus that in the American dd/mm/yyyy form the year is parenthetical and should be set off by commas (unless the year is followed by some other punctuation). The later part of the discussion addresses the problems implicated by that rule with regards to autoformatted dates. BUT, keep in mind that those concerns do not apply here because it is an article title, not an autoformatted date. I vote for September 11 attacks.Lowell33 (talk) 19:14, 20 August 2008 (UTC)

V:You misread my posts, make personal attacks, make yourself a personal authority (see "I've never..." in your post above), & then accuse me of "playing games"??? Btw, Google does not distinguish "September 11, 2001, attacks" from "September 11, 2001 attacks". You seem to be using the punctuation argument primarily as a strategy to change the name of the article. Btw2, your source admits to some uncertainty on this issue. The appositive/parethetical argument is one regarding meaning - not style. If it were a meaning distinction, it should hold in other date-formats (which it does not). The only reason I am even taking notice of you, is your repeated personal challenges. Do you think this is the only way anyone will notice you? Stop the personal attacks now.--JimWae (talk) 19:18, 20 August 2008 (UTC)

Jimmy: Don't insinuate ulterior motives from my writing. It would be hypocritical of me to use the wrong punctuation. Again, you use logical fallacies in your failed argument that "if it works in one, it should work in all". I'm trying to move past it; (you may have noticed some suggestions I made above). I think popular support is leaning toward September 11 attacks. -- Veggy (talk) 19:28, 20 August 2008 (UTC)

Couldn't resist using the diminutive, could you? (I am glad to say we are unlikely to ever meet in person.) You have not yet fully demonstrated it is "wrong", and you have again misread my argument. Instead, "if it works in one, it should work in all" appears to be your argument for ALWAYS including the comma after the year. If the year is parenthetical, it does not matter what format is used. "Parenthetical" is NOT the proper rationale for this "rule" (it appears to be more an over-generalization than to serve any useful function when the year is an adjective). I oppose adding the comma to the title. However, compromise may again be in order to bring this tedious discussion to an end. I reiterate my preference for changing the title to "September 11 attacks" over adding an awkward comma --JimWae (talk) 19:46, 20 August 2008 (UTC)

Well at least we agree 'September 11 attacks' would be better. -- Veggy (talk) 20:00, 20 August 2008 (UTC)

Thought it was worth pointing out that Britannica uses "September 11 attacks."Lowell33 (talk) 21:08, 20 August 2008 (UTC)

Only if forced to choose between those two. I have a different explanation of why the comma gets put after the year if there is already one in the date (and inherently includes a rationale why not to do it when the date is an adjective) - but I wll save it for someone who is trying to elevate the discussion instead of pushing people's noses into ugly smells to decide which is least bad, while repeatedly berating them --JimWae (talk) 20:12, 20 August 2008 (UTC)

I think I've been pretty polite here, and I am genuinely curious, so I'll ask: What is your rationale for punctuating the American dd/mm/yyyy format differently depending on whether the date is serving as a noun or an adjective? And, has that rationale been adopted by any style guide or other authority? ThanksLowell33 (talk) 20:28, 20 August 2008 (UTC)

I am not aware of any style guide that would explain the comma placement after MM/DD/YY (please note) as I would. Indeed, the Chicago style guide gives NO rationale at all. The other source admits to uncertainty & gives the faulty parenthetical explanation. So, my rationale would likely be subject to claims of WP:OR. Still interested?--JimWae (talk) 06:19, 26 August 2008 (UTC)

Sure, I'm interested. Maybe you could also explain why the year is not parenthetical in the American mm/dd/yyyy format. The "other source" I cited, by the way, was Strunk & White, probably the most authoritative English usage guide. Doesn't mean it's necessarily right, just saying it's not exactly an unsupported assertion on my part.Lowell33 (talk) 20:47, 26 August 2008 (UTC)

The ever-tightening micro-scrutinizer

Are we seriously arguing about a single comma, when this article is rife with other issues? This article still uses references from sources who do not have access to the data needed to assess the factuality or non-factuality of the assertions of fact for which there is not reliable evidence nor consensus. And the comma or lack of a comma in the lead neither improves nor harms the article to the degree that including unfounded assertions of fact does. Excuse my grammar, it's late. User:Pedant (talk) 07:10, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

Examples? Ice Cold Beer (talk) 07:21, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

Grammar matters; I don't get where you imagine it doesn't. And like Ice said, mind giving some examples? Your contributions related to 9/11 seem to be incessant whining on the talk page without substance. -- Veggy (talk) 07:42, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

It is patently ridiculous that an argument has erupted over a comma. Does it really make any difference? Will anybody think any less of anyone for including or excluding the comma? Do you all have better things to be spending your time on? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.151.140.33 (talk) 01:38, 22 August 2008 (UTC)

The following discussion is an archived discussion of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the proposal was move to September 11 attacks. There is a fair, if not overwhelming, consensus for the move and it is well in keeping with WP:UCN. I have discounted three of the four discernible opposes which offer no rationale whatsoever, policy/guideline based or otherwise, in support of keeping the article at the current name, nor do they address the naming convention basis for the request. I have also considered discussion higher on this page (in which at least one other user supported the move who did not comment below). As a side result, this also solves the "comma issue".--Fuhghettaboutit (talk) 03:01, 28 August 2008 (UTC)

RFC on page title and comma

I'm not a grammar expert, but would be content with either "September 11 attacks" which seems more common usage or "September 11, 2001, attacks" which I may need the comma. With the possibility of a page move, I think there should be a request for comment to get opinions of people uninvolved here. --Aude (talk) 19:56, 20 August 2008 (UTC)

Well, Lowell, JimWae, Sheffield, and I all have no problem with this choice. With you that makes five of us. -- Veggy (talk) 20:04, 20 August 2008 (UTC)

I'm not totally sure what my opinion is. I think it's worth getting outside opinions, especially from the people involved with the style guidelines. I know that User:Tony1 has commented before, but his opinion or others would be good. --Aude (talk) 20:06, 20 August 2008 (UTC)

Agreed, September 11 attacks is the best solution.Lowell33 (talk) 22:23, 20 August 2008 (UTC)

PS. I want this listed as an RFC for both history and style. I don't know if it can be listed twice, but I'm trying. --Aude (talk) 20:06, 20 August 2008 (UTC)

I think it would be good for everyone to weigh in once here, so this section doesn't get out of hand. The discussion can continue in a different section. --Aude (talk) 20:08, 20 August 2008 (UTC)

• September 11 attacks as actual common name, per WP:NCCN. We don't have to disambiguate, and a good thing too. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 20:18, 20 August 2008 (UTC)
• September 11 attacks is my first choice, but I have no problem with the current version with or without the comma. SHEFFIELDSTEEL^TALK 02:01, 21 August 2008 (UTC)
• Agreed, September 11 attacks. - Dan Dank55 (talk)(mistakes) 02:28, 21 August 2008 (UTC)
• September 11 attacks - since a formal request has been made, I'm clarifying my support. -- Veggy (talk) 02:29, 21 August 2008 (UTC)
• 2001 September 11th attacks since "September 11th" is the common name, but not sufficiently specific. But, really, none of the options are better or worse, just different. Peter Grey (talk) 04:23, 21 August 2008 (UTC)

• Hell to the no That's not common usage by any stretch of the imagination. Besides, being an American-centered topic, it follows the American date style. Month DD, YYYY. -- Veggy (talk) 04:43, 21 August 2008 (UTC)

• Everyone knows how to format dates - that's not what the discussion is about. This is an instance of a date that is also a proper name and also a encyclopedia article title. Peter Grey (talk) 06:52, 21 August 2008 (UTC)

• Alright, you've made your suggestion. I think it's far from common usage, but okay. -- Veggy (talk) 07:03, 21 August 2008 (UTC)
• Addendum: If you wanted to go this way I would suggest 11 September 2001 attacks. No comma, no problem. I just feel your suggestion is awkward. -- Veggy (talk) 07:06, 21 August 2008 (UTC)

• Oppose the current title works well enough. 70.51.10.38 (talk) 07:30, 21 August 2008 (UTC)

• Note: User has only been active as of Aug 20. -- Veggy (talk) 01:44, 23 August 2008 (UTC)

• No preference as long as the title has the following three words/number: September, 11, and attacks. Really, they're all fine. I know this doesn't add too much to the discussion, but I think I, as one of the regular contributors to the article, should comment. Ice Cold Beer (talk) 08:23, 21 August 2008 (UTC)
• September 11 attacks as WP:COMMONNAME, even in regions where the date format is day/month/year. +Hexagon1 ^(t) 01:04, 23 August 2008 (UTC)
• Keep the current title. It seems to work fine to me. Nsk92 (talk) 01:14, 23 August 2008 (UTC)
• Keep This is nothing more than wasted time. --Tarage (talk) 02:00, 23 August 2008 (UTC)

• Er, opposing a rename takes as much time as supporting it. Deamon138 (talk) 02:17, 23 August 2008 (UTC)
• Comment to Tarage: You haven't made a contribution to the article since April, so whomever's time is supposedly being wasted here, it isn't yours. -- Veggy (talk) 04:43, 23 August 2008 (UTC)

I wasn't aware Wikipedia required a mandatory frequency of edits to remain a part of a debate. I suppose I'll have to pad my usual responses with fluff? My sarcasm aside, it isn't only my time being wasted, but the article's as well. We could and should be working towards Featured Article status, not arguing about commas. --Tarage (talk) 08:20, 24 August 2008 (UTC)

The article wouldn't make FA status if it doesn't have the best name. Deamon138 (talk) 15:57, 25 August 2008 (UTC)

• Support Shorter is better, and there is no ambiguity. 11:14, 23 August 2008 (UTC)
• MOS comment: If "2001" is kept in the title, "September 11, 2001 attacks" is the standard WP style; the comma is used to separate the numbers, not to bracket "2001" as some kind of parenthetical. I offer no opinion on whether it should be "September 11, 2001 attacks" or ""September 11 attacks" other that to observe that (as far as I know) the latter is not ambiguous (yet). — SMcCandlish [talk] [cont] ‹(-¿-)› 11:22, 23 August 2008 (UTC)
• I'd have a preference for September 11 attacks as that's probably the most common usage. But I'm not sure it's worth all the time being spent on it, especially the comma business. RxS (talk) 13:15, 23 August 2008 (UTC)
• Even though American usage does not seem to mandate a second comma, and I don't flinch when I see its lack in running prose even if it looks rather strange, I find the current title of this article quite bizarre. I always have, actually. A second comma would look as strange, however, in this context; this, coupled with the absence of any need for disambiguation (there is only one series of attacks that's taken place on 11 September), make September 11 attacks the only solution I can agree with. Waltham, The Duke of 23:05, 23 August 2008 (UTC)

• Keep the current title. Grammatically, it's fine - there's no need for a comma after 2001 - and it seems slightly more formal to include the year, as we do for articles on many other major events. While it's pretty obvious what 'September 11 attacks' refers to, strictly speaking that title is ambiguous - there have been other attacks on that date in history, see September 11. In accordance with Wikipedia guidelines on precision in article titles, therefore, the current title is best. Terraxos (talk) 01:47, 25 August 2008 (UTC)
  • I did see the date article before commenting above; there have been individual attacks on September 11, but not series of attacks like the one that took place in 2001. The article's title is plural. I acknowledge that September 11, 2001 attacks might be a little more formal, but I maintain that there is no disambiguation issue, and that a four-word article title split in half by a comma isn't exactly my idea of good style. Waltham, The Duke of 12:37, 25 August 2008 (UTC)

Discussion

As a matter of American idiom, "the September 11, 2001, attacks" probably needs the second comma. But I don't see why we need that form in the article title - or, in that expression, elsewhere. "The attacks.... on September 11, 2001." will do fine. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 20:20, 20 August 2008 (UTC)

WP does not use American idiom when it comes to number handling and punctuation, but rather what works best for WP. The standard WP style would be "September 11, 2001 attacks", as noted above.

Do you have any support for the proposition that "September 11, 2001 attacks" is "the standard WP style"? I've cited the Chicago Manual of Style and several other style guides stating that the year in the American mm/dd/yyyy is parenthetical and should be set off by commas. You would be the first editor to cite any authority to the contrary. Lowell33 (talk) 15:59, 23 August 2008 (UTC)

Use of "the" is discouraged. I think this was called "attacks of Sep 11, 2001" and that is a valid suggestion. The big debate on this subject was held here. -- Veggy (talk) 20:27, 20 August 2008 (UTC)

I support a rename to September 11 attacks. That is the most common name (besides 9/11 which we obviously can't use). I believe the exact naming convention this article should follow is Wikipedia:Naming conventions (events), where it lists terrorist attacks as those that come under it's jurisdiction. There it says:

"If there is an established, universally agreed-upon common name for an event, use that name. Otherwise, create a name using these guidelines. In most cases, the title of the article should contain at least the following two descriptors: Where the incident happened, and What happened."

So since we have a common name (September 11 attacks) then there is no need to disambiguate with the 2001 part, or even with a US part (it happened in a few differing locations), thus making the discussion about commas mute! I also note that September 11 attacks is a redirect to the current location anyway. All that would be needed is a redirect in the other direction instead.

I think that particular naming convention needs updating though: it has as an example "Attacks of September 11, 2001" i.e. where the current article used to be. We should rename to the above suggestion and then change that example. Deamon138 (talk) 22:35, 20 August 2008 (UTC)

Neither the poll nor WP:NCE discussed this question of date format; we need merely update it. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 23:00, 20 August 2008 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Use of the word terrorist

9/11 Attacks - We can't use the word 'Terrorist' as one man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter. 81.151.140.33 (talk) 16:14, 27 August 2008 (UTC)

Didn't read the FAQ, did you, genius? -- Veggy (talk) 03:52, 22 August 2008 (UTC)

You can't use the word terrorist in a prejorative sense, but you can, and must, use it in a descriptive sense, if that is what you are describing.

Note: This section of the talk page isn't about the use of the word "terrorist". Please use other sections of the talk page. --Aude (talk) 11:19, 23 August 2008 (UTC)

Nevermind, I added a new section heading. --Aude (talk) 11:20, 23 August 2008 (UTC)

Please sign your posts, whoever you are. — SMcCandlish [talk] [cont] ‹(-¿-)› 11:22, 23 August 2008 (UTC)

I've now signed my post. Apologies, I intended this to be added to the name change vote.81.151.140.33 (talk) 16:14, 27 August 2008 (UTC)

is it really POV to explain causation versus collapse theories?

I guess I've never heard that one before. User:Jc-S0CO seems to think so, but it sounds a bit "out there" and I have yet to see any explanations by that user here, so I was wondering if someone else can explain those actions instead... Please notice that the first two sentences are totally about "causation," and the last one is totally about"the collapse." So basically regardless of who thinks who is POV, its just crappy english on another level, to not put a transition there... and please don't delete wikilinks without good reason dude, again we have a collapse wikilink but no causation wikilink unless you can find it in your gorgeous heart to not "r-v" my good faith edits again... 72.0.180.2 (talk) 06:39, 21 August 2008 (UTC)

I can only assume you're Fancy Cat. I would advise you to log in to prevent any accusations of sockpuppetry. Also, taking a look at your contribs, I notice this fine specimen of inflammatory language. Whatever problem you have with the way things are written, remember that you need reliable sources to back them up. Also, Wikipedia isn't out to prove anything. We're not an engineering publication. -- Veggy (talk) 06:47, 21 August 2008 (UTC)

Aside from the question of which editor this is, the first sentence (as written by the cat) does not imply any question of whodunnit, which in turn, is not the same as who knew. — Arthur Rubin (talk) 16:40, 21 August 2008 (UTC)

Pardon me for suggesting this but

it would seem that all this nonsense about commas is a device to bury discussion questioning this article's neutrality. The article states without citation that this was

a series of coordinated suicide attacks by al-Qaeda.

There has not been any ruling by a formal criminal investigation, so according to international law and our constitutional principles, this is at best

a series of coordinated suicide attacks allegedly carried out by al-Qaeda.

Actually the Senate can declare war on whoever it wants, for whatever reason, and whenever it pleases. And if the Senate wants to declare war at the drop of a hat then the Senate can declare war at the drop of a hat. There are no guidelines in the Constitution for declaring war. And neither are there Constitutional guidelines for international relations instructing the president or Congress exactly what to do, when to do it, and where to do it. So if Congress and the president says Al-Qaeda did it then Al-Qaeda did it, if you disagree then take it to the voting booth and shut up.98.165.6.225 (talk) 10:06, 25 August 2008 (UTC)

--APDEF (talk) 02:55, 22 August 2008 (UTC)

And it would seem to me we've had this discussion dozens of times before. There's was a huge investigation–you may have heard of it—the 9/11 Commission. That, alongside convicted al-Qaeda members and confessions by al-Qaeda leaders all cataloged by reliable sources give us the ability to write thus. Please review the index of archived discussions before you bring up another issue. Thanks. -- Veggy (talk) 03:59, 22 August 2008 (UTC)

The 9/11 Commission meeting with the President was closed-doors and no transcript was allowed. How can we use this as reliable evidence?Bukkit surch partee (talk) 23:08, 27 August 2008 (UTC)

There are many issues and facts which are classified. We can't do anything about that. The fact is the 9/11 Commission provides a detailed analysis of the attacks themselves. There, of course, is Criticism of the 9/11 Commission and you're free to contribute to that article, but despite these shortcomings, the report still provides one of the best accounts of the attacks. -- Veggy (talk) 00:11, 28 August 2008 (UTC)

The 9/11 Commission report is anything but detailed. It completely fails to even mention WTC 7, and it doesn't say ANYTHING about what happened after the towers began to collapse. This is crucial, because video evidence, among other post-collapse data, very strongly suggests that the 9/11 commission's explanation of why the buildings collapsed completely defies the laws of physics. I'll consider contributing to the criticism of the 9/11 commission maybe sometime this weekend when I have time. 68.103.19.216 (talk) 13:52, 28 August 2008 (UTC)

Department of Redundancy Department

In the first paragraph, the final sentence "There are no known survivors from any of the flights." is repeating this, earlier in the same paragraph, "...killing everyone on board....". 72.155.18.185 (talk) 14:41, 24 August 2008 (UTC)

The "killing everyone on board" part refers only to the two planes that crashed into the World Trade Center. The other part refers ALL the planes that were crashed that day. Deamon138 (talk) 18:13, 24 August 2008 (UTC)

Conspiracy Theories paragraph

Veggy and I have been working on the last sentence in this paragraph because it is a non-sequitur to the topic fo conspiracy theories about the attack. In order to make the sentence flow in the paragraph, it seems that the theories about the collapse of the towers need to be highlighted. I suggest that the sentence be removed since we don't want to address the specific theories in this article. Dscotese (talk) 01:36, 27 August 2008 (UTC)

I haven't been working on anything with you. StrageLove and I have been trying to revert all your poor edits and try to convince you to discuss hear instead of forcing your way through. -- Veggy (talk) 01:38, 27 August 2008 (UTC)

Sure you have. Look at the edit history. You pointed out the use of passive voice, so I fixed it. Why do you say my edits are poor? Dscotese (talk) 01:43, 27 August 2008 (UTC)

The Pentagon

I would appreciate a sentence written to the effect of the Pentagon being attacked on the sixtieth anniversary of its groundbreaking.GuamIsGood (talk) 03:33, 27 August 2008 (UTC)

That information seems rather trivial to me. I don't think it belongs in the article. Ice Cold Beer (talk) 16:24, 27 August 2008 (UTC)

Blatant Bias and Serious POV issues regarding this page

Attackers and their Motivation

"The attacks were consistent with the overall mission statement of al-Qaeda, as set out in a 1998 fatwā issued by Osama bin Laden, Ayman al-Zawahiri, Ahmed Refai Taha, Mir Hamzah, and Fazlur Rahman.[64][65][66]"

Link number 65 makes absolutely no reference to the mission statement, which is actually contained within link 66 in full, however is not contained in link 64. Link 65 technically has no relevance whatsoever because it's discussing security failures that lead to 9/11 within the FBI and intelligence sharing, and doesn't even reference motivations of the attackers, much less their stated reasons.

This statement begins by quoting the Koran as saying, "slay the pagans wherever ye find them" and concludes that it is the "duty of every Muslim" to "kill Americans anywhere."[64] Bin Laden elaborated on this theme in his "Letter to America" of October 2002: "you are the worst civilization witnessed by the history of mankind: You are the nation who, rather than ruling by the Shariah of Allah in its Constitution and Laws, choose to invent your own laws as you will and desire. You separate religion from your policies, contradicting the pure nature which affirms Absolute Authority to the Lord and your Creator."[67]

If I were an outsider doing a research paper (which I am by the way), and I were using wikipedia as a source (which I'm not, and for good reason), I should be under the impression that Al Qaedas primary motivation for 9/11 would be to simply kill Americans for the hell of it. However, that is entirely inconsistant with both the mission statement and Bin Ladens letter to America, which make it clear his motivations for attack are undeniably within 3 general categories:

1) Presence of US troops in Saudi Arabia and Middle East 2) Support for Israel 3) Support for "corrupt" governments in the Middle East

This information is contained in full in link 66 and 67. However it's interesting note how the author of the wikipedia article seems to stress the (harder to find) Islamist message while ignoring the main points (political motivations). Bin Laden makes it quite clear in an [17]unmistakeable Q and A format:

(Q1) Why are we fighting and opposing you?

As for the first question: Why are we fighting and opposing you? The answer is very simple:

(1) Because you attacked us and continue to attack us.

Under "motivations" I think it would be more appropriate to stress the political motivations since they are more prominent and these are the stated reasons of the attackers themselves. It seems the original author was writing using his own political motivations and biases in an attempt to persuade the reader, and it's very dishonest to say the least.

--Bronsonkaahui (talk) 23:25, 27 August 2008 (UTC)

Oh boy. Did you even read the following paragraphs; one of which states that:

In a second fatwā issued in 1998, bin Laden outlined his objections to American foreign policy towards Israel, as well as the continued presence of American troops in Saudi Arabia after the Gulf War.[70]

Or another below that says,

Counter-terrorism expert Richard A. Clarke explains in his book, Against All Enemies, that U.S. foreign policy decisions including "confronting Moscow in Afghanistan, inserting the U.S. military in the Persian Gulf," and "strengthening Israel as a base for a southern flank against the Soviets" contributed to al-Qaeda's motives.[109] Others, such as Jason Burke, foreign correspondent for The Observer, focus on a more political aspect to the motive, stating that "bin Laden is an activist with a very clear sense of what he wants and how he hopes to achieve it. Those means may be far outside the norms of political activity [...] but his agenda is a basically political one."[110]

No, apparently, you did not. If anything, all you've pointed out is faulty summary-style regarding the subsections on motivations. And I'm betting we'll never hear a reply from you despite your inflammatory and grossly inaccurate and offensive title. -- Veggy (talk) 00:07, 28 August 2008 (UTC)

"The attacks were consistent with the overall mission statement of al-Qaeda, as set out in a 1998 fatwā issued by Osama bin Laden, Ayman al-Zawahiri, Ahmed Refai Taha, Mir Hamzah, and Fazlur Rahman.[64][65][66]"This statement begins by quoting the Koran as saying, "slay the pagans wherever ye find them" and concludes that it is the "duty of every Muslim" to "kill Americans anywhere."[64] Bin Laden elaborated on this theme in his "Letter to America" of October 2002: "you are the worst civilization witnessed by the history of mankind: You are the nation who, rather than ruling by the Shariah of Allah in its Constitution and Laws, choose to invent your own laws as you will and desire. You separate religion from your policies, contradicting the pure nature which affirms Absolute Authority to the Lord and your Creator."[67]

This statement is clearly POV, as it is suggesting that the "overall objective" of Al Qaeda is to "attack us for our freedoms" and what not. Why is it relevent to say how the statement begins without pointing out the more pertinent information, such as the (self-stated) main reasons for the attacks? To the outside reader it suggests bias, perhaps it should be re-worded. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Bronsonkaahui (talk • contribs) 04:57, 28 August 2008 (UTC)

Nowhere in the entire article does it say "attack us for our freedoms". Stop pulling straw men arguments out of thin air—you're insulting the editors who've worked here. If you feel there's a better way the section lead can include the references to Israeli support, by all means add them, or propose them here if you feel they might stir controversy. But don't ever make things up and pretend that'll fly. And sign your posts. -- Veggy (talk) 05:18, 28 August 2008 (UTC)

Re:Helicopter Rescue

I recall a version of "why a helicopter rescue was not attempted" was because of the wind (the pilot did not think he could land safely) I can/will try to dig it up unless someone does not want me to (see footnote 39 of the contemporary article). I will check the archives before I attempt a search to see if the issue has been addressed. Regards Johndoeemail (talk) 05:23, 28 August 2008 (UTC)