Wikipedia talk:Article titles

RFC: Subtitles in naming

User:JHunterJ and I are having a dispute on whether an article on a board game should have its subtitle: I contend that it should, citing precedents such as Metal Gear Solid 4: Guns of the Patriots, Pokémon XD: Gale of Darkness (both video games), Borat: Cultural Learnings of America for Make Benefit Glorious Nation of Kazakhstan (a film), and Descent: Journeys in the Dark (a board game) as examples, and thus I have proposed to move Elasund to Elasund: The First City. However, JHunterJ disagrees, claming that "Elasund" will the the name most refer it to and how most look it up, citing precedent in book naming conventions (which omit subtitles). A uniform policy across all such media is needed, and discussion should be useful in resolving this issue. kelvSYC (talk) 04:46, 17 July 2008 (UTC)

Users JHunterJ and dcclark disagree with KelvSYC, because of WP:COMMONNAME. "Common name" is a uniform policy across all media (of which books are also a part). -- JHunterJ (talk) 10:49, 17 July 2008 (UTC)

I thought we'd banned proxies. :-) Waltham, The Duke of 15:40, 17 July 2008 (UTC)

For books, the issue is treated at Wikipedia:Naming conventions (books)#Subtitles.

"which omit subtitles" is however an incorrect summary of the relevant books guidance. It's not a good idea to start this discussion with an erroneous oversimplification imho.

I have no experience whether guidance comparable to the books guidance would be adjusted for fields as diverse as games, films, etc. --Francis Schonken (talk) 10:59, 17 July 2008 (UTC)

Last time I checked, WP:COMMONNAME is with regards to names of people. But anyways, I should make it clear that subtitles are necessary in some certain contexts such as disambiguation (eg. Fire Emblem vs Fire Emblem: Radiant Dawn), so we should be focusing on the naming of things in which the intended item is unambiguous without the subtitle. And from what I have seen, articles on films or video games at least tend to have the full name, while articles on books omit it. Here are more examples:

• Dr. Strangelove or: How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Love the Bomb (not Dr. Strangelove)
• Super Mario Land 2: 6 Golden Coins (not Super Mario Land 2)
• Super Mario World 2: Yoshi's Island (not Super Mario World 2 or Yoshi's Island)
• Wario Land: Super Mario Land 3 (not Wario Land or Super Mario Land 3)

kelvSYC (talk) 15:52, 17 July 2008 (UTC)

Re. "Last time I checked, WP:COMMONNAME is with regards to names of people" – please check again, Wikipedia:Naming conventions (people) was split of from WP:COMMONNAME in 2005. Really, starting a discussion with an exposé of erroneous simplifications is not the most brilliant of ideas.

I've encountered a few instances of book articles not following letter & spirit of Wikipedia:Naming conventions (books)#Subtitles. Accidents will happen, and in other cases sensible reasons not spelled out in the guideline were taken into account. Hard to build a case on a few unequal exceptions imho.

Re. Dr. Strangelove: I think that film should better be at that name. It was renamed without particular reason ([1]); it is a bit funny that the long version of the film title doesn't follow the capitalization provided by the distributor (see Image:Drstrangelove1sheet-.jpg); and it is generally known under the short name without ambiguity. --Francis Schonken (talk) 16:54, 17 July 2008 (UTC)

I won't argue about WP:COMMONNAME then, because it needs heavy refactoring - Saying that naming conventions on people was split off doesn't reflect nicely on WP:COMMONNAME since all of its examples are on articles about people. Again, I question whether the policy on books applies for other media. Perhaps books consistently omit subtitles (Frankenstein, and so forth), but calling what is probably standard practice in the names of other media as being "unequal exceptions" is a bit of a stretch, don't you think? Especially considering that in all likelihood the opposite is true in virtually every other form of media. I could prolly give a long list of CVGs for which including subtitles (where it isn't strictly necessary to establish the subject matter) is the norm, and given enough time, I could find BTGs, films, and other media for which this is also true. On a sidenote, how do you intend to resolve StarCraft: The Board Game vs Starcraft (board game)? kelvSYC (talk) 17:38, 17 July 2008 (UTC)

I've invited three relevant WikiProjects for their opinions: WP:CVG, WP:BTG, and WP:FILM on their thoughts. Let's see what they think, since it impacts them the most. — Preceding unsigned comment added by KelvSYC (talk • contribs) 13:43, July 17, 2008 (UTC)

Re. "WP:COMMONNAME [...] all of its examples are on articles about people" – please look again (WP:NCCN#Examples), 5 out of 11 examples are not people. I'm not going to make cheap jokes about the Guinea pig and the Sea cucumber.

Re. "Again, I question whether the policy on books applies for other media" – it doesn't, see Wikipedia:Naming conventions (books)#Scope and definitions.

Re. "Perhaps books consistently omit subtitles" – no, again, apart from a few exceptions (some of them simple errors or unawareness of the guideline), Wikipedia:Naming conventions (books)#Subtitles is the guideline that is applied for book articles.

Then follow more errors and arcane interpretations. No idea where you're trying to take yourself. --Francis Schonken (talk) 17:57, 17 July 2008 (UTC)

Explain to me why you think I am erroneous when I cite existing practice, or where my interpretations are "arcane" - why WP:CVG has it wrong when they put the article at Warcraft III: Reign of Chaos instead of Warcraft III, or why they have it wrong when it's Super Mario RPG: Legend of the Seven Stars instead of Super Mario RPG. These are clearly not books, and are outside the scope of book naming conventions. kelvSYC (talk) 18:30, 17 July 2008 (UTC)

Sorry if this sounds like a repeat: I have no experience whether guidance comparable to the books guidance would be adjusted for fields as diverse as games, films, etc.

Apart from books I only commented on the Dr. Strangelove film, while it seemed pretty straightforward to me. I have no opinion regarding the games. The only thing I wanted to make clear still: if you request "a uniform policy across all [...] media", then either count books out, or adapt to the books guideline. The other media articles are currently subject to the general naming conventions guidelines, including WP:NCCN. --Francis Schonken (talk) 18:45, 17 July 2008 (UTC)

As a VG project editor I do think that game subtitles are used rather gratuitously and contrary to WP:COMMONNAME. While it is sometimes practical, in the case of disambiguation, it is often completely unnecessary or even counterproductive. For example, why is the article at Metal Gear Solid 2: Sons of Liberty when the article also covers Metal Gear Solid 2: Substance (the Xbox port), which is essentially the same game? Wouldn't it just make a lot more sense to drop the subtitle? I don't want to see a repeat of this for MGS4. Ham Pastrami (talk) 01:49, 18 July 2008 (UTC)

As I mentioned when the subject came up at the VG project, my preferred naming conventions are "STOP MOVING IT" and "redirects are cheap, and also your friends." Nifboy (talk) 07:31, 19 July 2008 (UTC)

My 2p (which others have stated above): consistent with practice for books and movies, 1) include the subtitle in the full article ONLY when necessary for disambiguation (either among games, like titles that are part of a series, or between game and non-game articles that would otherwise have the same title): this is the only reason why Borat: Cultural Learnings of America for Make Benefit Glorious Nation of Kazakhstan has a subtitle; there is a separate article at Borat that is about the character. 2) It would of course be OK to create a redirect article with a name that includes the subtitle, pointing to the non-subtitled full article. 3) To NB's "STOPMOVINGIT" concern: consistency is important, and if that means we have to do a bunch of final moves to implement whatever we decide here, so be it (moves are cheap too). UnitedStatesian (talk) 17:19, 15 August 2008 (UTC)

"Official Names"

Is there currently a convention that exists anywhere for "official names"? For example, this revision to Conservative Party (UK), admittedly by me, has the official name (Conservative and Unionist Party) at the beginning of the lead, whereas another article Penalty shootout (association football) currently has the "popular" name first (i.e. penalty shootout). Admittedly this is in the lead rather than article names; however, I wondered if there was a convention as to when an article's name (per the naming conventions) is different to the "official name" and where therefore the "official name" appears (as it should) in the lead which should come first?

I know it's not a major issue but I've been through a few articles and it looks a bit of a mess when there are varying different styles used. BigHairRef | Talk 03:42, 25 July 2008 (UTC)

On biographies, WP:MOSBIO is clear:

"While the article title should generally be the name by which the subject is most commonly known, the subject's full name should be given in the lead paragraph, if known. Many cultures have a tradition of not using the full name of a person in everyday reference, but the article should start with the complete version. For example:

• (from Fidel Castro): Fidel Alejandro Castro Ruz (born 13 August 1926) …

It goes on to an illustration where the official name has changed:

In some cases, subjects have legally changed their names at some point after birth. In these cases the birth name should be given as well:

• (from Bill Clinton): William Jefferson Clinton (born William Jefferson Blythe III on 19 August 1946)

PamD (talk) 06:38, 25 July 2008 (UTC)

I was aware of the naming conventions for people and organisations, it was more as to the order in which they should come up in the lead. As I said it's not a mojor issue it would just be something useful in terms of style if all were to follow the same conventions, i.e. assuming the article's title was not the official name of an organisation, process, thing or person then which order should the official name then the common name follow in the lead as in the two examples given. BigHairRef | Talk 09:52, 25 July 2008 (UTC)

We often start with bolding the official name; but it'a a matter of taste, depending on euphony and exactly how uncommon the official name is; Cher seems to work well as it stands, the other way. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 20:32, 20 August 2008 (UTC)

Sugarland (duo) vs. Sugarland (band)

A while back, I moved the page to Sugarland (duo), based on the fact that a duo is not a band. This move went uncontested for months until User:Ericorbit moved it back citing naming conventions. I don't see anywhere in naming conventions that says that a musical group's page has to end in (band) if needed — two members do not a band make. Ten Pound Hammer and his otters • ^{(Broken clamshells • Otter chirps • HELP)} 16:58, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

I based my decision on the massive sweep done months (years?) ago which made just about all musical acts with more than one person needing disambiguation to "(band)". I know that when I first started editing in WP there were many pages with all types of descriptors: "(group)" or "(girl group)" or "(dance music act)", etc. I assumed (I suppose incorrectly) that there was something concrete written about musical acts being labeled "(band)" in order to keep things uniform. One example I gave to TPH was TLC (band) — hardly a "band" per se, but that particular disambiguation description keeps it in conformity to other musical-artist-related articles. I find a bit of a flaw with the line of thinking that a "duo" is not a "band". I believe a band can most certainly have as little as two people. For example, if someone wrote a best selling novel titled The White Stripes, I would expect the disambiguation of the music article to be "The White Stripes (band)", not "The White Stripes (duo)". Anyone else have thoughts on the matter or have TPH and I missed a prior conversation about this issue? - eo (talk) 12:07, 10 August 2008 (UTC)

I have never seen a duo referred to as a band. Not Brooks & Dunn, Montgomery Gentry, Sugarland, not The Judds. Ten Pound Hammer and his otters • ^{(Broken clamshells • Otter chirps • HELP)} 01:23, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

I agree that "band" sounds like more than two (in a way that "group" doesn't). The relevant section of WP:NAME, Wikipedia:Naming_conventions#Album_and_song_titles_and_band_names, says "When necessary, disambiguation should be done using (band), (album), or (song) (such as Anthrax (band) or Insomniac (album))" but goes on to say "When a track is not strictly a song (in other words a composition without lyrics, or an instrumental that is not a cover of a song), disambiguation should be done using (composition) or (instrumental).". Using "(duo)" could be seen to be an extension of that logic; perhaps there needs to be a discussion about that exact point (are you happy for a trio to be a "band"?). It's important that there's a redirect from the "(band)" version. Slight complication ... I see it was a trio until 2006! Might be best to just relax and leave it at "band", with a redirect from duo, accepting "band" as a wikipedia technical term which has a specific sense of "more than one person doing music together"? PamD (talk) 07:50, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

Redesign of this page

This page is getting very long and unreadable. Since each section has its own page where the guideline is written in details and editors usually refer to, I don't think that the summaries in this page are really useful or representative of the guideline. Did someone think about collapsing the whole page, leaving only a short one-sentence description for each specific NC? (Wikipedia:Quick directory is close to what I have in mind). 18:05, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

I am not sure that this is a good idea. This page is policy and as such the other pages, as guidelines, ought to describe in detail what is said on this page. --Philip Baird Shearer (talk) 18:40, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

Yes, but every section links to a more detailed page, and some sections doesn't even have a summary which makes the page very messy. Eklipse (talk) 18:49, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

Hyphen, en dash, colon...?

At the Wikipedia: WikiProject Olympics, there is a doubt on which way we should name articles about Olympic events that are part of a specific sport. For every Olympic sport (e.g. athletics, basketball, judo, etc.) there is a main-level page which is standardly named <Sport> at the <Year> <Season> Olympics (e.g. Swimming at the 2004 Summer Olympics). Then, we have articles for each medal-awarding event that is related to a specific Olympic sport, and these pages were named <Sport> at the <Year> <Season> Olympics - <Gender> <event> (e.g. Swimming at the 2004 Summer Olympics - Women's 200 metre backstroke).

We didn't pay attention to this detail until know and although we searched the MoS to answer our question, we haven't found a clear guideline. The issue is: what kind of character should we use for the event page titles, where we want to link the event name with the parent sport? We've always used an hyphen, but as per WP:DASH, they don't serve that purpose; we've thought about replacing them with unspaced en-dashes, but the guideline concerning use of "En dashes in page names" doesn't mention the case where a hyphen was used as a linker. The closest thing found here, where a colon is recommended, but I don't think these articles are considered long lists.

What do you recommend? Parutakupiu (talk) 18:54, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

My recommendation is to use spaced en dashes. The MoS may not be clear about this specific case, but

1. hyphens should not be used in this fashion and I have yet to hear of any appropriate usage of em dashes in titles; and
2. WP:DASH says that spaced en dashes are used in lists to separate points; if you put all these article titles together, they do make such a list.

This is to use the wording closest to the occasion, but it really is the only plausible option anyway—the colon one is irrelevant, as these articles are indeed not components of long alphabetical lists.

I therefore suggest using titles like Swimming at the 2004 Summer Olympics – Women's 200 metre backstroke. There should also be a hyphenated version for each article, so that readers typing the hyphen in the title will be redirected to the correct page. As most (or all?) articles are in the version with the hyphen, the moves will create the redirects, so as far as this side of the issue is concerned, you probably only have to worry about future cases.

Thank you for using the Wikipedia Help System. Waltham, The Duke of 21:32, 15 August 2008 (UTC)

Good to know that your recommendation goes in favor of the general consensus back at the WikiProject. We've had a user who offered to write a bot that will replace all the hundreds of pages that display such title structure. Its approval is still pending, so once it's approved and the 2008 Olympics (and with it the edit-frenzy on Olympics-related articles), massive moves will be made, with the hyphen-containing pages becoming redirects as you recommend.

Thank you! Parutakupiu (talk) 22:01, 15 August 2008 (UTC)

I note that Wikipedia:Naming conventions (long lists) (which is the closest MOS article I could find that might apply to our scheme for WP:Summary style on Olympic articles) makes no mention of en dashes and explicitely calls out a hyphen as an acceptable alternative to the preferred colon. It ought to be updated, I guess, if this is the new consensus. — Andrwsc (talk · contribs) 00:01, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

MoS is pretty clear in preferring a spaced en dash. It looks much better and is more easily recognisable than a hyphen. On a computer monitor, many browsers and fonts render hyphens rather ungenerously (is it a fly spot?). Tony (talk) 00:28, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

As I was watching some running just now, I noticed that spaced en dashes are used in the score cards for phrases like Result – Semifinal 1. I couldn't find any hyphens to make a comparison, but I'm certain that I saw en dashes. Clearly, this example should be followed. ;-)

And yes, I agree that the page needs to be updated. Waltham, The Duke of 11:38, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

Which is to say, Tony and a handful of others dislike hyphens and have revert-warred against them. As often, do what seems best, after seeing what your sources do. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 20:35, 20 August 2008 (UTC)

Not worth replying to. Tony (talk) 05:23, 21 August 2008 (UTC)

Franchise article naming convention discussion

A naming convention discussion for how to name franchise articles is taking place here. If anyone is interested, please come and give your input. LA (T) @ 23:15, 15 August 2008 (UTC)

Page name grammar

I notice that a lot of categories get renamed from "fooian foos" to "foos in/from foo" (i.e., an adjective gets replaced with a preposition and noun). Is there an equivalent practice/guideline for naming articles? The reason I ask is that I've proposed renaming List of musical intervals to List of intervals in music. Thanks! SharkD (talk) 18:04, 22 August 2008 (UTC)

Radio station article naming conventions

I've added Australia in with Central and South America as one of the places where a mix of call signs and station names are used with respect to radio stations. This is for clarity, because it is already the existing practice to name Australian radio station articles in line with the station's name unless their call-sign is particularly well-known (like in the case of 2UE or 4MMM). Australian stations have no requirement to identify themselves on-air by their call-sign, so in many cases, particularly in FM radio, the call-sign is completely unknown to the listening audience. - Mark 07:43, 2 September 2008 (UTC)

Countries take precedence

I would like to propose the notion that countries/nations should take precedence over any sub-national regions or cities in naming of articles. This may seem like a screaming obviousity but there are possible conflicts that can arise out of lack of having this policy, eg. the current debate at Talk:Georgia. The current vote has taken up 97kb so far, and that is not counting the five previous debates on exactly the same issue. Since the debate is currently lingering on the notion that there is a lack of a specific policy which would make Georgia (country) the primary article over Georgia (US state), I thought I would ask and get the general feeling around introducing such a policy to the naming conventions. Such a policy would not only exist for the case of Georgia, but would apply to any possible future conflicts over possible new (or old) nations. Before you reply, I would like to note such a rule would not affect the current status of Macedonia, which exists as a disambiguation page because of long-standing stable consensus over a real-life naming dispute (in contrast with the entirely Wikipedia-specific dispute over Georgia). So, what are your thoughts and ideas on such a convention? +Hexagon1 ^(t) 05:42, 14 September 2008 (UTC)

• Seems sensible to me. Sardanaphalus (talk) 18:10, 16 September 2008 (UTC)
• I cannot civilly express how much I detest this proposal. English calls two entities Georgia, and our readers will want to know about both of them. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 20:10, 19 September 2008 (UTC)
• No strong feelings. If I type in Georgia, I don't mind which I get, as long as, if it's an entry and not a disambiguation, there's a For other uses link at the top. (I haven't looked at the Talk:Georgia discussion) Mcewan (talk) 20:48, 19 September 2008 (UTC)
• I think if the nation is the primary topic for its name, it should be at the base name. If a sub-national geographic entity or even a non-geographic entity is the primary topic for a name that it shares with a nation, the nation should not be at the base name. I see no reason to implement a special subclause on WP:PRIMARYTOPIC for nations or states. -- JHunterJ (talk) 22:53, 19 September 2008 (UTC)
• Of course we should prioritise independent and recognised states (this should not apply to the Greek region Macedonia, the region takes presedence over a non-recognised state name). And when I say recognised, I mean recognised by the United Nations. We should use the names used by the UN. NerdyNSK (talk) 23:59, 19 September 2008 (UTC)
• See also Aragon and Chitral for other examples of countries (Kingdom of Aragon, Chitral (princely state)) that do not get the base name, but rather the base name goes to a subdivision. There will be others, and the country should not be default (or by policy) get the base name. -- JHunterJ (talk) 11:31, 20 September 2008 (UTC)
• No, there is no reason to prioritize countries where there is clear evidence that the common usage of the term is divided. older ≠ wiser 12:08, 20 September 2008 (UTC)

Naming convention for country names

This has probably come up previously, but shouldn't WP have a naming convention for country names? The ongoing messy and embarrassing series of arguments over naming Burma vs. Myanmar prompted me to ask this. Is that ongoing embarrassment the reason that there is no naming convention, or is the fact that there is no naming convention the reason for the ongoing embarrassment? -- Boracay Bill (talk) 01:50, 15 September 2008 (UTC)

It does appear there should be a specific policy addressing the issues facing country naming on Wikipedia, I agree. Talk:Burma/Myanmar (a page devoted solely to the discussion of where the article should be placed) alone is 368kb already, that's ridiculous. Such a policy would also help clarify issues such as the one I discussed in the heading right above this one, about Georgia. +Hexagon1 ^(t) 02:48, 15 September 2008 (UTC)

• And nobody mention Republic of China, Republic of China (Taiwan), Republic of China (Taiwan), Taiwan, Taiwan (Republic of China), Taiwan (Republic of China), -- oops. Sardanaphalus (talk) 18:09, 16 September 2008 (UTC)
• We must use the names as recognised by the United Nations. For example, we should say FYROM and not what we say now, because that's what the UN uses. All of our articles should follow UN usage, and if the current policy (common names etc) is not compatible with it then it should be made to be. NerdyNSK (talk) 23:53, 19 September 2008 (UTC)
  • No, we should not. We do not use WP:Official names; we are writing in colloquial English. (In the case of the Republic of Macedonia, official usage is of course divided, as well.) We do have a policy on this; it's called WP:SOAPBOX. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 14:23, 20 September 2008 (UTC)

Articles addressing relations between two countries

Hi. There's a suggestion and the beginnings of a discussion here about a consistent way to name articles that address relations between two countries. Input would be appreciated; or should the thread be moved somewhere here? Sardanaphalus (talk) 18:06, 16 September 2008 (UTC)

Propose removing or seriously weakening "Use standard English for titles even if trademarks encourage otherwise"

This simply doesn't happen when editors decide it is over-ridden by other considerations, e.g. the cases of OpenServing, ABN AMRO, ego trip's The (White) Rapper Show, PricewaterhouseCoopers etc. etc. Still, editors are using the fact of an article title following capitalization that happens to reflect a trademark to move articles, leading to unnecessary contention. This is an example of a guideline written essentially by very few people creeping into policy and then being used against local consensus with predictable results. 86.44.29.211 (talk) 12:56, 18 September 2008 (UTC)

CamelCaps and initialisms are exceptions, per WP:MOS-TM, so the cases you're mentioning are not in violation of the rule. (Well, except that reality show, but its name is a fricking mess anyway and there's no practical way around it.) Did you read that page? --erachima talk 13:10, 18 September 2008 (UTC)

ABN AMRO isn't CamelCaps and neither strictly speaking is PricewaterhouseCoopers, and ego trip's The (White) Rapper Show as you say. I'm sure there are numerous other examples, so the point remains. I scanned that page; I don't particularly care for it. 86.44.29.211 (talk) 19:06, 18 September 2008 (UTC)

Having exceptions for CamelCase and article names like iPod rather undermines the whole endeavour in any case. 86.44.29.211 (talk) 19:10, 18 September 2008 (UTC)

On what do you base "This is an example of a guideline written essentially by very few people creeping into policy" and by what do you mean "then being used against local consensus with predictable results"? What does "Having exceptions for CamelCase and article names like iPod rather undermines the whole endeavour in any case" mean? Thanks for the clarification. Alan smithee (talk) 21:44, 18 September 2008 (UTC)

Not a lot of people wrote WP:MOS-TM, and fewer are invested in it. More people wrote, or edited in such a way as to have retained, any one of the titles already referred to above. WP:MOS-TM seems to be included in WP:NAME purely for completeness, just because it exists. WP:NAME details conventions, then goes further to call the TM convention a convention explicitly in a page about conventions, yet people are still going to articles and creating a problem where before none existed, because this part of WP:NAME exists, since WP:Name purports to be policy.

Any logic there can be behind enforcing a style on capitalization that follows a trademark seems to me to be undermined by the existence of somewhat broad but specifically outlined exceptions.

The talk page of MOS-TM is a good read, taking in things like ABN AMRO and iPod Shuffle and whatnot. Doesn't make a great deal of sense, and shouldn't be included here. 86.44.27.45 (talk) 01:14, 19 September 2008 (UTC)

MoS-TM is a guideline, it just states a general rule, and is expected to have some exceptions. The basic point of the guideline, which is well-supported by consensus, is that we do not put arbitrary embellishments into page names. The exceptions are there because in some cases we have decided that the embellishments are not arbitrary but rather necessary to show the pronunciation of the word (e.g. "eBay" or "IBM"), and they do nothing to undermine the general principle. If you disagree with the application of the rule in a specific case, you should discuss it with other editors of that page. If you disagree with the principle, then you should discuss it with other editors on WT:MOS-TM. Either way, this is not the appropriate venue to challenge the guideline. --erachima talk 12:07, 22 September 2008 (UTC)

By the way the change was just done by one administrator disregarding all ethics. Vvolodymyr (talk) 20:29, 25 September 2008 (UTC)