Jump to content

Talk:Terrorism/Archive 10

Page contents not supported in other languages.
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
< Talk:Terrorism

This is an old revision of this page, as edited by Black Angus (talk | contribs) at 23:18, 26 September 2005 (→‎Merge Proposal). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

Previous discussions:

The Main Event

If everyone is done with the foreplay, let's get on to the main event. We have a term that means something specific in usage, yet it means nothing very specific at all in our Wikipedia definition. We want to fix that. We want it to mean something specific. What has prevented us from doing so for all these years? Politics. It actually benefits some political organizations to have "terrorism" undefined, or defined so vaguely that it doesn't mean anything. When our leaders declare war on terrorism, the first thing we want to know is, who or what is our enemy? If we use Wikipedia as our source of definitions and it can't give us an answer, we have to rely on our leaders for a definition, "Terrorism is violence for the purpose of evil. It's pejorative and very technical. Just leave it to us. We know who the terrorists are."

If you want insight into the definition of Terrorism read: Alex George "Western State Terrorism" Noam Chomsky "The Culture of Terrorism" and "9/11"

Obviously, the above definition does not work in a government of the people. It leaves the potential targets of our representatives open to be anyone. Those of us who saw how such power was abused in Nazi Germany and have vowed to never let such an atrocity happen again, will not allow our nations to adopt the same philosophy. Terrorism must have an objective definition. We must be able to universally identify when terrorism occurs and effectively communicate that information to others. The definition cannot be so loose that it could be interpreted to mean anything or anyone that our representatives want to target. Never again, always, and forever. --Zephram Stark 18:54, 31 August 2005 (UTC)

So wikipedia and "our leaders" are the only sources of definitions of terms like this? Gosh it's too bad nobody has invented a dictionary or even better, an encyclopedia of terrorism that could help people understand such terms. And it's a shame there are no academic departments of political science or national security studies that might focus on such questions and develop definitions based on original research. It's too bad we don't already have a good start on definitions of terrorism that list some of the definitions already in use by experts. I guess it's up to us Wikipedians without any expertise in this area to do original research and come up with fancy new jargon to use to describe these phenomena, otherwise, if I follow your logic, we will be sending people to gas chambers any minute.--csloat 19:08, 31 August 2005 (UTC)
Thank you Commodore Sloat. I think you proved my point about some people not wanting this thing to move forward. Wo planen Sie, die Gaskammer zu installieren? --Zephram Stark 19:33, 31 August 2005 (UTC)
Uh-huh. You're the one proving Godwin's Law on a discussion about definitions. And you're the one proving your insincerity and bad faith by deleting my comments instead of responding to them. You only respond to the above after another user restored my comment. Why has your userid not yet been banned I wonder? I want this page to move forward, but without your "input", thank you.--csloat 20:47, 31 August 2005 (UTC)
I think you know as well as I why my userid hasn't been banned: people want a definition for terrorism and I'm helping to give them one. As for your userid—-someone who's entire agenda seems to be to vandalize, disrupt, war-edit, and revert good definitions that are in the process of getting better—-your guess is as good as mine. I've seen people subvert the article discussion process much less than you and get banned. I guess your status at Wikipedia is keeping you afloat. But prove me wrong, please. Show us how you can actually do something productive for this definition. I've only seen you destroy things so far. Is it possible for you to help us build? --Zephram Stark 21:40, 31 August 2005 (UTC)
  • Seems to me this article is going to stay locked forever. Pity. The approach of "overwhelm the other editors with verbiage and cute fonts and smiley faces" doesn't strike me as very good way to achieve consensus. Neither does the approach of clearing entire talk pages and then setting oneself forward as the only reasonable disputant. Neither does throwing around language about "userids being banned" without actually doing anything to accomplish that end. --jpgordon∇∆∇∆ 22:07, 31 August 2005 (UTC)
  • Thanks JP!! That contributed a lot to the definition. Is there anyone here besides me who has an interest in writing an introduction that conveys information? --Zephram Stark 22:19, 31 August 2005 (UTC)
  • I am totally disinterested in the content of the article; I am, instead, wearing my admin hat and monitoring the processes involved in creating and maintaining the article. Articles should not stay locked; and arguments should not be won or lost by attrition. I'm looking for opportunities to unlock the article; you are providing the opposite. --jpgordon∇∆∇∆ 22:27, 31 August 2005 (UTC)
  • I think you misunderstand the purpose of your admin hat. It is not for lording over lesser editors. It is certainly not to be used to give you and your clan an advantage in editing articles. Your powers as admin are for the exclusive purpose of making definitions better. That is the only reason you or I or anyone else is here. --Zephram Stark 22:39, 31 August 2005 (UTC)
  • Well, actually, no. First of all, Wikipedia isn't about "definitions"; this is an encyclopedia, not a dictionary. But that's neither here nor there. As an admin, my responsibilities certainly include those of any Wikipedia editor -- improving the content of Wikipedia. However, as an admin, they also include the responsibity of applying the decisions made by the community. That means I have to determine what those decisions are. Since Wikipedia works by consensus, I have to determine what the consensus is. --jpgordon∇∆∇∆ 05:26, 1 September 2005 (UTC)
  • I don't know how to break this to you, JP, but encyclopedias define words too. Good articles start out with a Lexical Definition, like a dictionary, for the introduction, adding Precising Definitions and Stipulative Definitions to the article main. You are also dead wrong about your alleged hierarchy of Wikipedia editors, but I'll just let you figure that one out for yourself. --Zephram Stark 14:32, 1 September 2005 (UTC)
  • Just because I'm such a nice guy, I'll give you a clue as to why your behavior at Wikipedia is self-destructive. It comes from the father of my country, George Washington, in his farewell address, "All obstructions to the execution of the laws, all combinations and associations, under whatever plausible character, with the real design to direct, control, counteract, or awe the regular deliberation and action of the constituted authorities, are destructive of this fundamental principle, and of fatal tendency. They serve to organize faction, to give it an artificial and extraordinary force; to put, in the place of the delegated will of the nation the will of a party, often a small but artful and enterprising minority of the community; and, according to the alternate triumphs of different parties, to make the public administration the mirror of the ill-concerted and incongruous projects of faction, rather than the organ of consistent and wholesome plans digested by common counsels and modified by mutual interests. However combinations or associations of the above description may now and then answer popular ends, they are likely, in the course of time and things, to become potent engines, by which cunning, ambitious, and unprincipled men will be enabled to subvert the power of the people and to usurp for themselves the reins of government, destroying afterwards the very engines which have lifted them to unjust dominion." -GW --Zephram Stark 15:35, 1 September 2005 (UTC)


  • No, there isn't. You're the only Wikipedian who wants to make any kind of a useful contribution. Thank goodness you're around. SlimVirgin (talk) 22:23, August 31, 2005 (UTC)
I think you misunderstand the purpose of an encyclopedia, Zephram Stark. It is not the promulgation of original research (i.e.; stuff you made up). It is certainly not to be used to give you opportunities to play domination games and blither about "advantages" and "clans". Your job as an editor for the exclusive purpose of making an encyclopedia better for everyone, not for self-promotion, self-glorification, elevation of nonsense, and general trolling. Making an encyclopedia better for everyone is the only reason we are here: why you are here is an open question. --Calton | Talk 00:32, September 1, 2005 (UTC)
I'm glad you think your purpose is to make Wikipedia articles better. Could you give us a demonstration of your purpose right here with this article? --Zephram Stark 14:32, 1 September 2005 (UTC)
Well, my existing contribution list should be sufficient proof for non-trolls, but for this article, I'd say removing the contamination of nonsensical original research qualifies as improvement. --Calton | Talk 21:54, September 2, 2005 (UTC)

Ground Rules

Due to the controversial nature of this definition, I would like to propose some ground rules for editing the intro to terrorism:

  1. I propose that we only make positive changes to the article—-things that make the article better
  2. I propose that we let everyone have a voice in deciding if it is better—-that we don't bad-mouth and block people for giving their opinion.

If you have any problem with these ground rules or would like to add some, please speak up now before we get started. --Zephram Stark 22:39, 31 August 2005 (UTC)

WE? Are you royalty, a newspaper editor, or suffer from tapeworm?
Time for more flowers here, I see...
The first ground rule, really, should be that editors with a proven track record of unilaterally held tiny-minority opinions, bad-faith edits, nonsense-peddling, system gaming, and transparent sockpuppetry don't get to set the ground rules. The second ground rule should be that editors as described above should be ignored, and said editors should go get their own Geocities site instead of trying to borrow the well-earned authority of Wikipedia. And you have already given your opinion, and it has been universally rejected. Don't like it? Deal.
If any of that was unclear, perhaps I could dress it up in multi-colored type or garish display fonts, because, after all, you seem to believe that dressing up your mostly content-free blather gives it some authority -- much like putting lipstick on a pig. --Calton | Talk 00:32, September 1, 2005 (UTC)
Yawn!! I grow tired of your attempts to convince others that you are somehow better than them. Let your contribution to this article speak for itself. --Zephram Stark 14:04, 1 September 2005 (UTC)
I'm only convinced I'm better than you, at least where actually contributing to an actual encyclopedia with actual facts is concerned. Not a high standard admittedly, given your contribution history, but I'll take it. --Calton | Talk 21:54, September 2, 2005 (UTC)
Is your definition of improvement from the DoubleSpeak dictionary: Destruction is Improvement? When I say improvement, I'm talking about comparing the two articles, side by side, to see which is better. Here at Wikipedia, we do that by consensus. However, when we see an article locked, and everyone voting for one version blocked, we know that corruption has subverted consensus. --Zephram Stark 16:41, 7 September 2005 (UTC)
Zephram, if you're truly serious about improving the article, you can start by focusing on the content. Responding sarcastically to comments from five days ago is not progress. On a more positive note, I thought that one of your recent comments [1] was a step in the right direction. It described what you want to see in the introduction and gave your opinion of what a great article is. Let's keep moving in that direction. Carbonite | Talk 16:50, 7 September 2005 (UTC)
Is it okay if I hold you to the same standard? Pretending that another editor is your pet project whom you need to reform is not progress. On a more positive note,... ...uh... ...well... I can't seem to find anything that you've done to improve the article. --Zephram Stark 17:04, 7 September 2005 (UTC)
My previous comment was some advice followed by a compliment. I honestly liked the direction you were heading in. I had hope that it was a start to this article being unprotected. Then you respond with an insult. Maybe we have different ideas of progress. Carbonite | Talk 17:22, 7 September 2005 (UTC)
I'm quite sure that we do. There is a much bigger issue here than an article. Terrorism's non-definition is just one example of what can happen when some editors think they are the policemen of Wikipedia. Editing by consensus works to the extent that editors consider themselves equal to each other. When you adopt the notion of punishment, the system falls apart. Obviously, if all editors are equal, one editor can't possibly have the right to punish another. As a consequence, we start seeing people argue that some editors are more than equal, that their opinion counts for more because they have administration powers or a long list of edits. That certainly is a valid argument for a proposed hierarchy, but a hierarchy loses the power of consensus, and leaves the lowly editors without choice or real purpose.
What happens here at terrorism will set a precedent for Wikipedia in the future. If equality wins, I see Wikipedia largely replacing all other definitional sources. Conversely, if oppression wins here, I don't see any way for Wikipedia to be taken seriously. --Zephram Stark 17:41, 7 September 2005 (UTC)

Discussion on Voting Methods for Definition

Objection: There hasn't been any discussion of voting on a definition by breaking it down like this. I prefer if someone propose a modified paragraph that we can tinker with. This is too artificial; the whole is not a mere sum of its parts. I don't want to further stall changes by asking for a vote on the vote, but can we at least discuss whether this sort of multipartite voting is useful in any way? (Esp. given the announcement that votes will freely change; when can we consider this vote finalized?)--csloat 01:47, 1 September 2005 (UTC)
I see your point, that the combo of criteria is important, not just the individual criteria. However, I view this first vote like a "primary", where we will hopefully eliminate the least popular criteria. Once we have a general consensus, we can do a "pass/fail" vote on that combo. If that fails, we will have to consider some other mechanism, or just leave the definition alone. I realize that this method isn't perfect, but it's better than nothing, which is what we have now. If you would like to create a new section with an alternate voting method, please do. I would be glad to vote there. PS: Since your discussion isn't a vote, but rather a discussion of voting methods, I moved it to a section with that name. StuRat 02:13, 1 September 2005 (UTC)
As for when to close the vote, I added another section where we can vote on that. Unless you want a vote on the method of voting on when to close the vote, LOL. StuRat 02:58, 1 September 2005 (UTC)
I agree with csloat. A vote on the definition will not solve our problem, because our problem is not the definition. Our problem is a single editor who mindlessly persists in claiming that there is something deeply and fundamentally wrong with the article, and seems incapable of understanding that nobody agrees with him.

StuRat, what do you think of the article as it is now? – Smyth\talk 17:18, 1 September 2005 (UTC)

It's not bad, but seems to "try to be all things to all people". I would like to get it down to a precise definition, not all of this "may or may not" language. The EU apparently gave up defining it and just listed specific acts, for example. After a precise def, all the other alternate defs could also be included. StuRat 20:36, 1 September 2005 (UTC)
The "may or may not" and "usually" language is poor and was introduced relatively recently. What do you think of this version?
Why not just propose something better, as is done on every other page I've ever participated in. I've never seen a sentence-by-sentence vote on anything, and then a vote on how to vote? It's kind of surreal. I understand the need to vote on things occasionally when there are disputes, but most things such as this can be more easily discussed in context, arriving at a collectively edited paragraph through consensus rather than by having people check boxes on a list.
A serious discussion about this had begun but it was immediately disrupted by Mr. Stark. Unfortunately the page will likely remain locked as long as that user continues his antics. I have posted a note on his page imploring him to stop, and I see another user has as well. I think there is a strong case for WP:RfC or even disciplinary action if he continues the disruption. But in any case, while the page is locked, we can only discuss and tinker with the definition we have, or discuss alternate definitions. We can even take this checklist vote if people think it will be useful, but I would rather hear what specifically is wrong with the current definition and discuss alternatives. I also don't understand why we need to reinvent the wheel in this case.
Generally when I have seen votes on wikipedia they are begun after a long discussion and dispute over a specific item where there are people on different sides. The vote is generally proposed by someone who has been active in the discussion. I haven't been here that long but this is the first time I have ever seen an editor come to a discussion and demand a vote without having participated in the actual discussion leading up to a vote. I'm not trying to say this is illegitimate; just that it is unusual in my experience, and it seems like an odd way to go about doing things. But again, none of this matters while we have the other problem of a user disrupting the page. The page is likely to remain locked until there is no risk of Mr. Stark starting another edit war trying to coin new words.--csloat 21:32, 1 September 2005 (UTC)
I didn't "demand" a vote, I proposed one. I just thought somebody neutral (not part of the apparently vicious arguments here) would be in the best position to get things back on track to an actual discussion of proposed changes to the page. If, on the other hand, everyone voted that no change was needed, then there is no longer a need for any discussion at all. Either way, this would hopefully end, or at least, reduce, the bickering. BTW, I have been here before, mostly just reading the discussions, but also made proposals in sections 22 and 23 of archive 5, on August 9-10. I was planning on waiting until the tempers settled down before participating again, but it was looking like that would never happen. As for the definition I would like, you can figure it out by the items I said I support in the voting list, but I will also combine it in paragraph form here, as you like:
Terrorism is life-threatening violence directed against civilians, perpetrated by a non-state entity (or covertly by a nation) and not contained within the geographic region it is designed to "liberate" (from the POV of the perpetrators).
StuRat 22:26, 1 September 2005 (UTC)

Votes on Definition

OK, let's not argue, let's vote on the definition. I listed my votes, please add your own, with brief reasons only (list long discussions as separate sections and refer us there, please). Also, feel free to change your votes at any time, as I will:

Terrorism criteria currently in the article:

  • A terrorist act is generally unlawful.
  • Both Support and Oppose. Almost all official government definitions of terrorism include that it is unlawful. When referencing documents such as the USA Act, it is correct to say that they define terrorism as unlawful. Also, all propaganda used to support government definitions of terrorism would inherently include the constraint that it be unlawful, otherwise, the governments themselves would be guilty of terrorism. Other than the definitions created by governments, or used pejoratively for government propaganda, no use of the term has ever included the constraint that it necessarily be unlawful. Obviously, we need a separate government propaganda definition of terrorism that includes this usage. --Zephram Stark 18:32, 2 September 2005 (UTC)
  • Oppose. This term is too vague to be useful, as there are laws against just about anything, somewhere. StuRat 01:27, 1 September 2005 (UTC)
  • Oppose. Unlawful by whose laws? Kafziel 14:26, 2 September 2005 (UTC)
  • It is violent and may be life threatening.
  • Support. I would reword it as simply "It is life threatening." This excludes terrorism against property, such as by ELF, which is my intent. StuRat 01:27, 1 September 2005 (UTC)
  • Oppose. I agree with StuRat, but as I see it that means I oppose the stated version. I would change it to his suggestion. Kafziel 14:26, 2 September 2005 (UTC)
  • Both Support and Oppose. Almost all official government definitions of terrorism include that it is violent and/or life-threatening. When referencing documents such as the USA Act, it is correct to say that they define terrorism as life threatening. Therefore, all propaganda used to support government definitions of terrorism would inherently include the constraint that it be life threatening. Other than the definitions created by governments, or used pejoratively for government propaganda, very little use of the term has ever included the constraint that it necessarily be violent or life threatening. For example, sanctions that kill hundreds of thousands of young children are not necessarily violent by themselves, but they are often referred to as acts of terrorism because the seek to coerce through the systematic use of terror. Obviously, we need separate definitions of terrorism to delineate these distinctions. --Zephram Stark 18:32, 2 September 2005 (UTC)
  • The violence is politically motivated.
  • Oppose. It may also be religiously or ethnically motivated. StuRat 01:27, 1 September 2005 (UTC)
  • Oppose. Saying that terrorism is politically motivated is an attempt to cheapen those causes with which we do not agree. Kafziel 14:26, 2 September 2005 (UTC)
  • Both Support and Oppose. Government definitions of terrorism like the USA Act do not include the stipulation that the act be politically motivated. Since the USA Act is widely used to investigate and prosecute other alleged potential crimes, it certainly is not constraining itself to only politically motivated investigation of future crimes. All future crimes can be investigated under the USA Act and its enforcement amendment, the USA PATRIOT Act. Other than the government, however, hardly anyone uses the term terrorism to mean anything other than politically motivated attacks. Obviously, common usage and government usage of the term are polar opposites in many respects. --Zephram Stark 18:32, 2 September 2005 (UTC)
  • The direct targets are civilians.
  • Support. This also includes actions by many countries during WW2, so this criterion is "necessary, but not sufficient" for us to call it terrorism. StuRat 01:27, 1 September 2005 (UTC)
  • Support. This means that attacks on military targets, such as the Pentagon on 9/11, or a soldier throwing a grenade into a tent full of officers, would not be considered terrorism, correct? Kafziel 14:26, 2 September 2005 (UTC)
  • Both Support and Oppose. Since the government declared that 9/11 was an act of terrorism, people have been trying to figure out a definition of terrorism that fits the example. Obviously the definition we used for the past 200 years, since it was coined, wouldn't work, so we tried to come up with a new one. The stipulation that it necessarily targets civilians was one of the more pathetic attempts at redefining terrorism, but it seemed to stick since the President of the United States supported it. Obviously, we need to separate newer definitions of terrorism from the ones we used before 9/11. --Zephram Stark 18:32, 2 September 2005 (UTC)
  • The direct targets may not be the main targets.
  • The main targets may be one or more nation-states, governments, or societies; or a political, ethnic, or religious group, or an industry or commercial operation, within those societies.
  • The objective is usually to intimidate the main targets.


  • There may or may not be a claim of responsibility.
  • The perpetrator is usually a non-state entity. Where there is direct state involvement, the state actors are clandestine or semi-clandestine. See State terrorism.
  • Support. I feel it is critical to distinguish between actions by governments, which can be found and defeated by traditional warfare, and secret organizations, which can't. StuRat 01:27, 1 September 2005 (UTC)
  • Abstain. I disagree with the current notion of "State Terrorism", but we have enough on our plate right now, so I will simply not vote on this one. Kafziel 14:26, 2 September 2005 (UTC)
  • Oppose Where did this one come from? I've never read any definition or heard anyone use terrorism in this context. We can't create definitions for the purpose of precluding the possibility that the authors might be implicated in the definition. --Zephram Stark 18:32, 2 September 2005 (UTC)

Proposed terrorism criteria to add to the article (feel free to add your own here):

  • It is not contained within the geographic area it is designed to "liberate". This criterion only applies to "wars of liberation" (from the point of view of the perpetrators). The actions of al-Queada in the original war in Afghanistan against the Soviets would not be considered terrorism, using this criterion, as these were largely contained within Afghanistan. The actions by Chechen militants against the Russian Federation would be considered terrorism, however, due to the numerous attacks outside Chechnya. StuRat 01:27, 1 September 2005 (UTC)

When to close the vote on definition

This is the minimum number of votes on each criterion to "close the vote". At that time I propose a "pass/fail" vote on the combo of criteria which received a majority vote. If that passes, we can then request that an admin make the change:

  • 5 votes
  • 10 votes
  • 15 votes
  • 20 votes
  • 25 votes
  • 30 votes
  • 35 votes
  • 40 votes
  • 45 votes
  • 50 votes
support--EKBK 17:31, 2 September 2005 (UTC)
  • 60 votes
  • 70 votes
  • 80 votes
  • 90 percent agreement of those actively involved in improving the introduction.
  • 100 votes
  • 110 votes
  • 120 votes
  • 130 votes
  • 140 votes
  • 150 votes
  • 160 votes
  • 170 votes
  • 180 votes
  • 190 votes
  • 200 votes

Outline

The best articles I've seen at Wikipedia start with a general and widely accepted definition and work toward the specific and more controversial offshoots and implications of it. All of the things we are voting upon above are used in some context of the word, but in every instance terrorism means something along the lines of the Oxford English Dictionary definition that Smyth suggested: "a policy intended to strike with terror those against whom it is adopted; the employment of methods of intimidation; the fact of terrorizing or condition of being terrorized." Since this definition encompasses every usage of terrorism, it, or something like it, should come first. After that, each of the things we are voting upon should be listed in the context in which they are used. For example, a terrorist act is necessarily unlawful when defined by a government (since they obvious don't want to include themselves in the definition). Instead of deciding whether or not to include the constraint, we should say what context makes each constraint relevant. --Zephram Stark 03:33, 1 September 2005 (UTC)

I thought one of the principles of a definition was that it shouldn't use any form of the word in the def. If you don't know what "terrorism" is, then will you know what "terror" or "terrorize" means ? Their def seems so broad it would even apply to a schoolyard bully. StuRat 05:16, 1 September 2005 (UTC)
I agree that using "terror" in the definition of "terrorism" is weak. I greatly preferred one of the OED's other definitions that was there for a while, but Zephram changed it to this one. – Smyth\talk 06:42, 2 September 2005 (UTC)
Not using any form of the word is a high priority in creating a definition. It is a priority that almost all dictionaries and encyclopedias do not follow in relationship to this term. If we look at the underlying reasons for making this a priority, we can see why.
The purpose in writing a definition is to help the term more efficiently convey information. To do this, a beneficial definition must be:
  • in accordance with popular usage
  • concise and objective
  • consistent with facts independently provable via the scientific method
Using a form of the word being defined generally goes against the stipulation that a definition be concise and objective. Objectivity, however, must be weighed against considerations of popular usage and truth. In the definition of a panacean word like terrorism, terror is one of very few things that all definitions have in common. Finding a unifying point for such a far-reaching definition is an essential starting point for the article. --Zephram Stark 13:54, 1 September 2005 (UTC)
I still oppose use of that def, Zeph, they just "weaseled out" of defining it, IMO, because it was too much work. StuRat 20:49, 1 September 2005 (UTC)
How about we start out with "Terrorism is the systematic use of intimidation for the purpose of coercion" and expand from there? --Zephram Stark 21:35, 1 September 2005 (UTC)
I've been watching this page with interest, and it's nice to see someone else actually come in and attempt constructive dialogue, StuRat. Thumbs up. --EKBK 14:19, 1 September 2005 (UTC)
Thanks. Unfortunately, nobody seems to be willing to vote the way I proposed or to propose a new way to vote, so I suppose I won't be able to help after all. Sigh. StuRat 20:49, 1 September 2005 (UTC)
The Wikestapo gang isn't going to vote because they don't care about a good definition. Everyone else is too scared to go up against the Wikestapo gang—-even when they use anonymous IPs, they still get blocked. That just leaves you and I (and EKBK if he wants to help). With only two of us, we hardly need to vote. Let's just talk it through and ignore anyone who isn't here to help. --Zephram Stark 21:26, 1 September 2005 (UTC)
Even if we were in total agreement, a consensus of 2 would never persuade an admin to unlock the page and/or make the changes we request. We need EVERYONE here to work together, and calling them NAZIs isn't going to get that to happen. Please let's all tone down the dialog.StuRat 22:33, 1 September 2005 (UTC)
All I want to do is create a great definition. When I say that Jayjg's buddies aren't here to further that cause, I'm stating the obvious—-something that anyone can see by looking through the archives and the dozens of times I have challenged them to say something productive.
I have a little secret for you: JP isn't God. He isn't even interested in making "terrorism" a good article. He only locked the definition because he could see that more people liked the one the one that his buddy Jayjg was opposing. If he hadn't locked it, we would be editing it right now, instead of arguing over why we can't edit it. All you have to do is look in his contribution log to see how many times he has done the same thing on other definitions.
  • I'm quite sure that all of the other 548 administrators would not lock a definition and then refuse to work on it. You have no idea what I'm talking about though, do you? In your mind, we're the workers and you're the overseer. You are the one who makes decisions, while we are the ones who carry them out. Can't you see that your attitude subverts the power of Wikipedia? Instead of millions of people making small contributions to definitions, a few admins become the only real editors. Do you suppose that you are more qualified for this position than Webster or any of the other great creators of definitional sources? Do you really see no conflict of interest in locking your buddy's definition over another one without even becoming acquainted with the issues? I'm just trying to explain why controlling others doesn't work. You can choose to see this as constructive criticism or as abuse—-it makes no difference to me—-but I can tell you that life gets a lot easier when you consider others to be equals. --Zephram Stark 02:34, 2 September 2005 (UTC)
If you're "quite sure", then please go to WP:RFPP and ask that Terrorism be unprotected. --jpgordon∇∆∇∆ 03:14, 2 September 2005 (UTC)
Could you take that "quite sure" any more out of context? You know as well as I that the RFPP encourages people to work article locks out with the admins that locked them. If an article should not have been locked, it becomes easier to get the admin demoted than to get the article unlocked by anyone else. --Zephram Stark 14:41, 2 September 2005 (UTC)
If an article shouldn't have been locked, it will be easier to convince another admin that it should be unlocked. There's no reason reason why the locking admin needs to participate in the discussion. In fact, it's often better if the admin is as uninvolved as possible. If you can show that the dispute is settled, a quick note on RFPP will get the page unprotected. Carbonite | Talk 14:58, 2 September 2005 (UTC)
Thank you for your opinion. I disagree, so I won't be acting on it. The bottom line is that the 3RR specifically states, "Any reversions beyond this limit should be performed by somebody else, to serve the vital purpose of showing that the community at large is in agreement over which of two competing versions is correct." When JPs buddies were in danger of hitting the 3RR limit, he subverted the process by locking the definition. Not only did the principle of Wikipedia equality suffer as a result, but take a look at the definition he locked!! Is it really in the best interest of Wikipedia to promote that subjective grab-bag of vague and contradictory meanings over the concise, objective, and much more source-citing definition below? --Zephram Stark 15:07, 2 September 2005 (UTC)

(Resetting indent)First, could you please refrain from using a different font and/or font color. It's very distracting to read discussions that have mixed colors. Second, if you believe the page was protected improperly, asked for it to be unprotected on RFPP. If you believe an admin is acting improperly, ask for review on WP:AN/I. Complaining here is not very useful. Carbonite | Talk 15:17, 2 September 2005 (UTC)

You're just full of advice today, aren't you? I can locate my comments easier if they have a slight hue, and I don't find it distracting at all, but your suggestion is certainly noted. I also noted your suggestion regarding the RFPP the first time you said it, and I'm aware of the review process for admins, but homey don't play those games. We're all adults here and can discuss things without running to the teacher every time our feelings get hurt. In fact, our group has a decided advantage over the rest of the world: we all want to create better definitions. I admit that there might be a few who have ulterior motives, but they are easily spotted. They're the ones that pretend to be better than others, lock inferior articles, revert definitions as punishment, and do everything in their power to confuse the issue so that an objective description cannot be written. In short, they're the ones that concentrate on destroying things instead of building better definitions, and their actions speak louder than their words. --Zephram Stark 15:48, 2 September 2005 (UTC)
I really don't appreciate your sarcastic tone. I'm trying to help you focus your energies because so far it doesn't appear that you've been too productive. If you want to ignore advice, that's perfectly fine with me, but it might actually help your case to change your tactics.
It doesn't matter that you can find your comments easier if you color them, this isn't your user space. Take a look at any discussion page and I highly doubt you'll find any other editors using odd colored text. Make your sig stand out if you'd like, but whole paragraphs of green text are just annoying.
As I've already said, this isn't the place to rehash your tired arguments of improperly propected articles, etc. Take those complaints elsewhere because they don't belong here. Carbonite | Talk 16:09, 2 September 2005 (UTC)
Do you think that by restating the same thing, it becomes truer? --Zephram Stark 17:18, 2 September 2005 (UTC)
Maybe the current state of affairs would in fact be best addressed by interested parties "working article locks out with the admins that locked them." After all, we don't want to get the reputation of not playing well with others, Zeph. BrandonYusufToropov 14:48, 2 September 2005 (UTC)
Your implied threat came across loud and clear, you sly devil. ;) --Zephram Stark 15:07, 2 September 2005 (UTC)
You might think I'm hitting my head against the wall, but I had to go through this same locked-article scenario to get an NPOV introduction for al-Qaeda. In the end, it was worth it. We have a great definition and no more NPOV disputes.
I have high hopes for Wikipedia. With a little tweaking, I think it could replace all other definitional sources in the next six to ten years, but that will only happen if we can create a system where the best article wins out over the influence of bands of biased editors with confessed external agendas.

Proposal for a New Introduction

I'm going to post the last definition that all of us worked on before this edit war began, with the proposed changes that Sloat suggested. I would appreciate any positive edits by anyone—-changes that make the definition better. --Zephram Stark 00:19, 2 September 2005 (UTC)

Jesus, are we already back to this again? The editorial changes that I suggested were to delete this definition and work with the other one. Your agenda is as transparent as it is absurd. I propose a return to the discussion that you disrupted, where some progress was actually being made. --csloat 02:57, 2 September 2005 (UTC)

Nobody has a problem with you proposing changes that make the article better. We just don't want you making it worse as a means of punishment for not getting your way. Let your proposed changes speak for themselves. If you honestly feel that you can make the following article better, please do so. I think I speak for most Wikipedia editors when I say that the more positive help we have, the better. --Zephram Stark 14:35, 2 September 2005 (UTC)
I could care less about punishing you Mr. Stark I just want you to stop disrupting the discussion. I have proposed changes and you immediately ridiculed them and started posting your bogus definition again. I don't want to make the article below better; I want it deleted entirely and I want to work with the article that we had before you started your little taxonomic jihad against it. If we want to talk about "state terrorism" or other categories that are commonly used in the literature on this topic that is fine but it isn't part of the definition. We don't need to talk about "pejorative" terrorism or your not much better "terrorism as propaganda" and concepts like "criminal terrorism". The notion of "terrorism defined by government agency" is not much better than the ludicrous "FISA-terrorism" was. Again your definition seems more like an attempt to hijack the discussion than an attempt to actually get to some useful work done here. Nobody has suggested anything specifically wrong with the current definition nor has anyone suggested why we can't handle this more on the proper page. So please put this definition to rest and let's work with what we have.--csloat 18:10, 2 September 2005 (UTC)
No, nobody has suggested anything specifically wrong with the currently locked definition. We have five archived pages of people saying that it's just fine. May or may not do this. May or may not do that. Pick the things you want it to mean. It's kind of like a mix-n-match definition. It's all things to all people and doesn't offend anyone. The only teensy-weensy problem with it is that IT DOESN'T CONVEY INFORMATION. Do you know what an encyclopedia is for? It's for definitions that convey information!! --Zephram Stark 19:31, 2 September 2005 (UTC)
Again you're trying to evade the issues here. I didn't say the current def was perfect. I suggested specific changes and points of discussion. You go back to whining that it "doesn't convey anything". Then you try to get another user to buy into your bogus definition. when will this end?--csloat 02:53, 3 September 2005 (UTC)
It will end when the definition conveys information. There are many people working toward that end. You are not one of them. --Zephram Stark 16:12, 7 September 2005 (UTC)

This Definition Conveys Information

The Oxford English Dictionary defines terrorism as "a policy intended to strike with terror those against whom it is adopted; the employment of methods of intimidation; the fact of terrorizing or condition of being terrorized." Additional constraints are added depending on the context of the usage.

  • Political Terrorism adds a constraint that terrorism is used to further a political cause. Whereas Conventional Warfare seeks to reduce an opponent's physical ability to fight, Political Terrorism seeks to coerce compliance in an opponent, either directly through fear of losing life and luxury, or indirectly by prompting the opponent to reduce liberties and increase military/police spending.
  • State Terrorism is terrorism overtly used by a government to intimidate or coerce its own citizens, or the populace of an opposing force.
  • State-sponsored Terrorism is a tactic of Unconventional Warfare that seeks to bring the complacent citizenry of an opposing force into a conflict through the covert support of third-party terrorist groups.
  • Terrorism defined by a government agency adds a constraint that it is illegal, thus making it impossible for that government to fall under that definition of terrorism. For example, the definition that terrorism appears to intimidate or coerce, breaks criminal laws, and endangers human life, was used to create the USA PATRIOT Act, the War on Terrorism and, the Decree of the Reich President for the Protection of People and State.
  • Terrorism used as propaganda adds a constraint that it is inherently evil. Terrorism is widely used in a pejorative sense to promote the War on Terrorism, the Homeland Security of various nations, and the USA PATRIOT Act. When used as propaganda, terrorism dons a vague, subjective definition that means little more than violence for the purpose of evil.
  • Criminal Terrorism is terrorism used for personal enrichment rather than for the more common purpose of political gain. The official state-recognized definitions of terrorism for many countries do not make any distinction between Criminal Terrorism and Political Terrorism (see USA Act for example). This makes it possible, through expanded law-enforcement powers such as the USA PATRIOT Act, for alleged hypothetical criminal activity to be considered a potential act of terrorism, and subject to investigation, before the fact.

Gone for two months ...

... and return to find Zephram still up to his old tricks. Good Lord.

Thanks to the admin who locked the article and restored a measure of sanity here. BrandonYusufToropov 10:46, 2 September 2005 (UTC)

It just wouldn't feel like home if Wikipedia had an objective definition for terrorism, like every other Dictionary and Encyclopedia, would it? It's a good thing JP locked down that subjective grab-bag of vague and contradictory meanings or you might have gone insane!! --Zephram Stark 14:19, 2 September 2005 (UTC)

Discussion of individual votes

(Discussion encouraged here to keep the voting area from being clogged with discussion.)

Thanks, Kafziel, for your votes in the sections above. You forgot to vote on the proposed addition (non-containment of violent acts to the area they are designed to "liberate"), however. As for your statement regarding civilian targets:


"This means that attacks on military targets, such as the Pentagon on 9/11, or a soldier throwing a grenade into a tent full of officers, would not be considered terrorism, correct?"

I think the Pentagon attack would be considered terrorism, under this criterion, since the plane was filled with civilians. The Pentagon also contains a mix of military and civilian employees. The soldier who threw a grenade into a tent full of officers (in Kuwait, prior to Gulf War 2) would not be guilty of terrorism, just murder and treason, according to this criterion. StuRat 17:00, 2 September 2005 (UTC)

So the attack on the U.S.S. Cole was not terrorism? Also your claims about the Pentagon attack are stretching it; the Pentagon is a military building regardless of whether there are civilians in there - and the plane was the weapon, not the target. I think the "civilian target" point is not necessarily the best way to put this -- perhaps that the attack kills noncombatants (military or civilian)?--csloat 18:16, 2 September 2005 (UTC)
No, according to this criterion the attack on the Cole was not terrorism. You are, of course, entitled to disagree. I still maintain that civilians were an intentional target of the 9/11 attacks, including the Pentagon, not just "collateral damage". The fact that the other planes were intentionally flown into civilian buildings or rammed into the ground shows the intent of the attackers included "maximizing civilian casualties" not minimizing them, unlike most (but not all) traditional warfare. StuRat 19:02, 2 September 2005 (UTC)

I agree with Stu here, and never even considered the USS Cole attack to be terrorism. That was a strictly military target. If attacking a military target without warning is terrorism, then I think the US has a lot of explaining to do for the last hundred years, especially the parts with the submarines and the snipers and the land mines.

I would also suggest that the Pentagon was a valid target, as any "civilians" inside were (or should have been) fully aware that they were supporting military operations. But I would say that the civilians killed in the plane that hit it were certainly victims of terrorism. Kafziel 19:12, 2 September 2005 (UTC)

To know the motivation for something, all we have to do is listen to the reasons stated by the person who did it. If you consider coercion to be a factor of terrorism, the attacks against the U.S.S. Cole, the Pentagon, and the World Trade Towers were not terrorism because there was no coercion involved. In fact, Osama bin Laden said that those attacks were specifically aimed at reducing the United States ability to fight them through military and force-trade aggression. As such, they fall squarely under the definition of Conventional Warfare.
Knowing this doesn't make our jobs as Wikipedia editors any easier. Now we have to change the definition of terrorism that we've had for 200 years to make 9/11 and the U.S.S. Cole fit under our new description of the term. But that's not all. We also have to change the definition to make it look like we, and our governments, couldn't possibly fit under that description. All the while, we have to remember that Wikipedia isn't the first definitional source, so we'll have to badmouth or reinterpret all pre-9/11 dictionaries and encyclopedias along with anyone who claims to remember how terrorism used to be defined. Are we up to the challenge?
Judging from the horrible condition of the locked intro to terrorism, it looks like we are not. Perhaps that's because it's impossible. Since the advent of the Internet, history can no longer be redefined to suit our needs. We're going to have to skip the propaganda and ulterior motives on this one, and concentrate on creating a definition that conveys information. --Zephram Stark 19:17, 2 September 2005 (UTC)
I think it's a mistake to take the stated reason as the real reason. Deception is widespread in both conventional warfare and terrorism. I doubt if bin Laden was so naive as to really believe that even the total destruction of the Pentagon would destroy the ability of the US military to function. Measured in purely military terms, it was far less effective than Pearl Harbor was at destroying our military capabilities. The idea that he was going to intimidate the US into leaving the Middle East would also be difficult to believe. Since I don't think bin Laden was stupid, I agree with those who say his true motive was to "gain publicity" for his cause an thus gain new recruits. StuRat 19:30, 2 September 2005 (UTC)
I don't pretend to know Osama bin Laden's mind, but I do know what he said, and it is consistent with the facts. I can see no reason to second-guess him except for propaganda purposes. --Zephram Stark 19:37, 2 September 2005 (UTC)

Thanks for the votes, Zeph (although I do wish you'd put the extended discussion here so we don't make the voting list unmanageably long). Regarding the criterion about containment, no I did not propose it for the purpose of "showing how The Soviet Union v. al-Qaeda is the different than The United States v. al-Qaeda". My intent was to not include the endless civil wars that frequently use nasty tactics, like massacres of civilians. I consider those to be war crimes, and in some cases genocide, but not terrorism. StuRat 19:23, 2 September 2005 (UTC)

It seems obvious that the three of us actually want to build a definition. If there is anything that all of us can agree upon, I propose that we start with that, working from the generally accepted to the specific additional constraints of usage. Anyone else who actually wants to help is certainly welcome. --Zephram Stark 19:46, 2 September 2005 (UTC)
I want to do that, but don't feel 3 people is enough to call a quorum. I wanted 20 votes before proceeding to that stage, and you want 90. So, I get a weighted average of 45 votes to proceed to the next step. Since we are running maybe 3 votes a day, I hope we could hit that number in 15 days or so. StuRat 20:01, 2 September 2005 (UTC)

Zeph, I didn't understand your voting response "Hu?". Can you explain ? Also, if you have a link to where bin Laden said 9/11 was to destroy the US military, I would like to take a look at that. StuRat 19:53, 2 September 2005 (UTC)

I'll look that up for you. He's said it many times. I saw it most recently in a video interview on Al Jazeera. Regarding the "hu," I'm sorry, I meant to say "Huh?" It isn't that I couldn't understand what the confusing sentence or the confusing arguments were saying if I put my mind to it; it's just that I don't want to extend that much effort on something that we've already discussed so many times in creating the new definition. I consider you and Kafziel to be unbiased since you don't profess to be pushing any particular agenda. Do you two think the new definition that me and several other editors hashed over for months should be thrown in the garbage? --Zephram Stark 20:36, 2 September 2005 (UTC)
Overall, I oppose that definition, or should I say those definitions, though there are parts of them I agree with. StuRat 23:13, 2 September 2005 (UTC)
That wasn't really my question. Let me rephrase. Given that we have to start with either the old definition or the new one, which would be easier to edit to make a definitive definition? --Zephram Stark 00:20, 3 September 2005 (UTC)
I would say the def that is currently used on the main page is better, then. StuRat 02:09, 3 September 2005 (UTC)
Zepoh will you please stop this BS? how many more people need to tell you that your definition is not useful here?--csloat 02:51, 3 September 2005 (UTC)
So far, I have one that doesn't have an obvious ulterior motive. What do you think, Kafziel? Don't be afraid to voice your opinion. These admins talk tough, but Wikipedia wouldn't be much of anything without its editors. --Zephram Stark 17:48, 3 September 2005 (UTC)
Zeph, do I understand correctly that you now classify me as someone with an "obvious ulterior motive", because I disagreed with your proposed definition ? StuRat 00:53, 4 September 2005 (UTC)
No. You are the one person who has disagreed with my proposal who doesn't have an obvious ulterior motive. I appreciate honest criticism because it helps build a better article. You are obviously interested in building a definition that conveys information because you are actively working toward that end, so your opinion is quite valuable. --Zephram Stark 12:39, 4 September 2005 (UTC)
Thanks. BTW, Zeph, did you ever find that bin Laden quote about the 9-11 attack being to destroy the US military ? StuRat 01:20, 5 September 2005 (UTC)
Peter Singer quotes bin Laden saying that in his book The Ethics of George W. Bush. bin Laden said it several times in his videos that were blocked by the FBI, but shown on foreign channels. I also read it in a bin Laden interview on aljazeera.net. If I run across a direct link, I'll post it here. --Zephram Stark 16:54, 7 September 2005 (UTC)

A new idea?

with all the archived discussion, I don't know if this has been described before, but what about digressing to history before the intro? e.g. 1)"In order to define what terrorsim is, it is helpful first to give a condensed overview of the the histories of the word and the phenomenon" 2)histories given 3)Presently, terrorism has come to mean ... Dsol 18:46, 3 September 2005 (UTC)

Brilliant!! --Zephram Stark 22:07, 3 September 2005 (UTC)
Uh, glad you like it. Other opinions? It would be great if we could get a consensus to at least try this, so we can unlock the page for a while. Dsol 23:31, 3 September 2005 (UTC)
I would prefer to define it first, then give historical usages. StuRat 00:49, 4 September 2005 (UTC)
There aren't that many people who actually care about making a good article for terrorism, so don't expect anyone to support any particular idea. Most of the people are only here to keep the term from ever being defined. Don't let that stop you. I think your idea is among the best I've heard and I'd love to see you work it up. Obviously an article has to convey information in order to be considered a definition, so the grab-bag on the front page doesn't qualify, but as soon as we have a few real definition proposals, we can vote between them and the matter will be resolved. I'd love to see your idea fleshed out and StuRat's too. The more people we have making proposals, the better the definition will be in the end. Don't worry about the turd-blossom patrol. We flushed them all out with the last go round. If they block your definition without proposing anything better, they will lose their seats of power. Pretty much most of them are gone now, leaving a space for us to make real progress. --Zephram Stark 01:39, 4 September 2005 (UTC)

Wikipedia articles are generally not structured that way, and for good reason. First the articles define the phenomenon, so people have an idea what the article is talking about, then they give the history of the term. As for Stark's contributions, the whole point of his original research is simply to promote the idea that the U.S. government's blockade of Iraq was terrorism, while Al Qaeda's attacks on the World Trade Center were not. The lack of response to him by regular editors is not because they are not watching this page, nor because they fear that they will "lose their seats of power"; rather, it is because they have generally lost patience with Stark's policy violations and his incessant personal attacks. If he continues on this course (e.g. referring to those who disagree with him using terms like "turd-blossom patrol" who have been "flushed out"), he will no doubt get himself banned soon enough. Jayjg (talk) 02:12, 4 September 2005 (UTC)

See how easy it is to spot Karl's boys? They drone on and on about how any proposal won't work, but never propose anything better. Don't worry about Jayjg and his idle threats. He obviously doesn't have more than eight or ten administrators in his corrupt little gang. He talks all tough, but every time he blocks someone who's only crime is trying to make a better definition, he shows another dozen people how he's abusing his power, and we always get them unblocked again in very little time. --Zephram Stark 03:19, 4 September 2005 (UTC)
I agree that in general this idea is not desirable for an encyclopedia article, especially when a reader comes to an article knowing nothing about the subject. But I think it might be in this case, since most any reader coming here will have heard the term terrorism before, and will probably be wanting a more general and detailed overview of the what the term connotates beyond his/her own personal knowledge. I also think it could resolve the current deadlock in a way that might eventually lead to a consensus on what terrorism is, and this defintion/lack of definition/discussion of the vagaries of defintion/whatever might eventually be move back to the top. If the problem is as bad as it sounds, however, it might not do much good. Dsol 04:12, 4 September 2005 (UTC)

There's no real deadlock, though. Essentially Zephram Stark wants to re-write the article, and every other editor here (and we're talking 8 or more long-term editors) thinks his edits detract from the quality of the article, and most refuse to talk to him any more. Jayjg (talk) 07:18, 4 September 2005 (UTC)

Speak for yourself, tough guy. My only interest is in creating a definition that conveys information. My actions back that up. Your actions betray your true motivation as well. --Zephram Stark 12:25, 4 September 2005 (UTC)
Please be aware that your next personal attack on this page will result in an RfC. Your behavior is contributing to the delay in unprotecting this article. Carbonite | Talk 17:50, 4 September 2005 (UTC)
If you want me to stop defending myself, I know of a really easy way to do that, Carbonite. Stop attacking me, and concentrate on a making a positive proposal for the article. --Zephram Stark 14:33, 5 September 2005 (UTC)
Do you actually listen to your own advice? Carbonite | Talk 14:35, 5 September 2005 (UTC)
Yes. --Zephram Stark 15:10, 5 September 2005 (UTC)

Perspectives from Other Languages

Also (though not to derail), I noticed there's no link to the many articles on terrorism in other languages. Very interesting distinctions. German one talks about a systematic and tactical action toward a goal, French about 'un sentiment de terreur,' Russian about an action of violence against someone who's not a formal enemy, Italian stub admits that 'La definizione di terrorismo non è unica,' Spanish page, with a warning about 'la neutrelidad,' starts off by descrbing terrorism as 'una estrategia de guerra asimétrica,' and quickly acknowledges the utility of considering 'la etimología de la palabra.' I would be interested especially in Hebrew, and Arabic if someone can summarize their definitions. Dsol 23:31, 3 September 2005 (UTC)

The same word often has slightly different, or in some cases radically different, meanings in different languages. For example, in French "molest" means to "bother or disturb" (which is also it's original meaning in English, as seen in old movies: "Officer, this man is molesting me"). It's common modern meaning is to sexually assault children. My point is that we will likely find a different meaning for terrorism is each language. I'm not sure how WikiPedia handles this in general, does it restrict itself to the English language or try to define words in every language in which they are used ? StuRat 00:46, 4 September 2005 (UTC)
Agreed, but I don't think this applies here, since at present we have many world leaders adressing the whole world on the subject of terrorism as "currently understood," knowing that they will be translated into English, Finnish, Chinese.... Thus if there's a breakdown in meaning in some of these translation, I think that far from rendering the foreign language meanings irrelevant, this breakdown is relevant to the article because of the global natures of terrorism and the response to it. Dsol 04:22, 4 September 2005 (UTC)
I think that's an excellent idea!! Definitions from other languages are highly relevant. --Zephram Stark 01:50, 4 September 2005 (UTC)

Wikipedia does not refer to itself as a source. Jayjg (talk) 02:14, 4 September 2005 (UTC)

I've never heard an encyclopedia refer to itself in any manner. I didn't even think they could talk. --Zephram Stark 03:31, 4 September 2005 (UTC)
Wikipedia in English shouldn't cite itself but I'm pretty sure it can site Wikipedia articles in other languages. I wouldn't recommend this, though, since chances are the other langauges' wiki articles are equally volatile. My point was just that issue this should be included somehow, as it seems to accentuate the difficulty of the definition. I think that the language issue is just one more reason to avoid an overly narrow or technical definition. (I'm taking out that smiley face if no one minds) Dsol 04:22, 4 September 2005 (UTC)
Don't mind Jayjg. He's just throwing up another smoke screen. If we listened to the Rove's naysayers, we wouldn't consider anybody's definition of terrorism except the Department of Homeland Gestapo. --Zephram Stark 12:18, 4 September 2005 (UTC)

Techinical Solution Might Allow for Unprotection

First of all, Jesus fucking christ. This discussion page is extremely childish and I wish people would not attack each other in the responses to my posts. That being said, I understand the main point of contention is the definition. Since this comes at the very beginning of the article, we can't protect it without protecting the article. I hope we could get consensus to do the following:

1)At the very beginning of the article, start with an exteremly innocuous definition preamble statement we can all agree on. E.g.: "This article is about the word terrorism and the things this word refers to."
2)Immediately after we have a 'section called Defintion of Terrorism, Definitions of Terrorism, What is Terrorism, etc. This is a seperate section, so we can can keep it protected while unprotecting the rest of the page.
3)Get an administrator to unlock the page, keeping a definition in a locked section.
4)We work on the content of the article a lot. In particular I'd like to see:
  • A lot more info about differing perspectives on terrorisim
  • More info on history(I'd like to work on 19th century terrorism myself)
  • Terrorism in fiction
  • quotes by GW Bush, Salman Rushdie, Edward Said, Jacques Derida, Jacques Chirac, Vladimir Putin...
  • Terrorism and democracy
  • translations of the word terrorism into other languages, the subtle differences that can be lost in translation, and what this means for terrorism as a global problem.
5)After all this hard work (which anyone who wants to whine about the definition/lack of defintion/multiple definitions/futility of a defintion is strongly encouraged to participate in by yours truly) it should be much more clear what an appropriate definition should be. We can then try to reach a consensus on the talk page, unprotect the defintion, and
6)take out the preamble.

I know this is imperfect, but I think it's the best way ahead. If everyone agrees to this we can have the page unprotected in 24 hours. This is an important subject and having it locked is just an embarassment. Wikipedia is precisly the place people would go to find a balanced, npov view on this kind of issue. Dsol 17:35, 4 September 2005 (UTC)

Unless I'm understanding your plan incorrectly, it is not technically possible. An article is either protected or unprotected, they can't be protected at the section level. The only workaround would be to transclude a protected template with the definition, but that's not very plausible. Carbonite | Talk 17:42, 4 September 2005 (UTC)

Actually I'm fairly sure I've see this done in other articles. I'm trying to find an example now... Dsol 17:51, 4 September 2005 (UTC)
There may be an article or two that uses such a translusion scheme, but it's extremely unorthodox and makes editing far more difficult. Hundreds (thousands?) of other controversial articles exist without any type of protection and I don't see the need for long-term protection (section-level or otherwise) here. Carbonite | Talk 17:56, 4 September 2005 (UTC)
I don't see a need for it either, but I don't see how this page is going to get unprotected anytime soon otherwise. Actually, I think I may have been thinking about a neutrality notice on a section, which could also be used, if people would form a consensus about not messing with idea for a while. The whole situation is just kind sad and lame, worrying about piddling techinicalities when the article itself is so obviously underdeveloped. But if we don't do this or something similar, how does the page get unprotected? Dsol 18:01, 4 September 2005 (UTC)
Your suggestion of editing the article is completely workable and was working as per Wikipedia guidelines until Jayjg and SlimVirgin started deleting large relevant chunks of the article, and reverting it to what we have now, as punitive gestures. If we can all agree to concentrate on making the article better, instead of punishing each other, there is no reason the article has to be locked.
I agree that we should start with an extremely innocuous definition preamble statement we can all agree on. However, a definition doesn't do anyone any good unless it conveys some sort of information. If there were just one word that we could all agree is associated with terrorism, that would be better than no definition at all: "intimidate" for instance. --Zephram Stark 15:08, 5 September 2005 (UTC)

an easier way to solve this

I believe an admin can protect the page for only particular users - if we make this page so that anybody but Mr. Stark can change it, it should be reasonab;le to unprotect it. The only reason it is protected is because Stark kept messing it up. --csloat 02:24, 7 September 2005 (UTC)

On the other hand, we could just revert any absurd edits he makes and ignore the talk-page trolling, deleting it if necessary. One editor can't hold a page up with so many opposing him. SlimVirgin (talk) 03:00, September 7, 2005 (UTC)
The 3RR prevents one editor from reverting the definition more than three times. It sounds like what you really want is to prevent anyone from editing the article that doesn't agree with your agenda. (For those just joining us, the intro to terrorism hasn't conveyed information for going on three years now. JP, SlimVirgin, and CSloat delete any attempt to define the term, lock non-definitional definitions to the article, block IPs that revert their non-definitions, and call anyone taking a stand against them a "sockpuppet" or worse. If you want to see who is actually helping to improve the article, simply take a look through the archives at all the people proposing objective definitions.) --Zephram Stark 15:39, 7 September 2005 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Requests for comment/Zephram Stark

Normally I don't add needless sections to talk pages, and God knows this one has enough already. But I hope this will be the last chapter in this increasingly pathetic story. – Smyth\talk 19:12, 4 September 2005 (UTC)

So... your message is that if we don't leave terrorism undefined, that you will get us in trouble? That might have worked in third grade, but here you'll have to present some sort of logical argument as to why you think the introductory definition of terrorism should remain undefined. --Zephram Stark 15:15, 5 September 2005 (UTC)
Zephram, the RfC page is quite specific about the reasons why it exists. The content of the article is not the issue. I still hope some compromise can be reached to everyone's satisfaction, but the more I read of this discussion page, the less likely that seems. I think your cause would be better served by adressing the criticism of your conduct on the CfD page in more detail and with less ideology and by evincing a greater willingness to comproimse. As far as content is concerned, I would like to better understand your point of view (which I understand is that a single objective defintion should be agreed upon, though I'm not really sure of the details), but it's greatly obscured at present by your rhetoric the attacks both on you and by you. Perhaps you could host the version of the intro you'd like to see on your talk page, with a justification of why you think it's better viz-a-viz wikipedia guidelines. Dsol 15:42, 5 September 2005 (UTC)
When you say, "The content of the article is not the issue," I hope you are speaking for yourself. For some of us, the content of the article is the only issue. I've been through this same thing on many articles, including al Qaeda. In the end, it didn't matter what people thought of me. The only thing that mattered is that the NPOV tag was removed and has stayed off ever since. We finally have an article for al Qaeda that conveys information and is stable. That same thing can be done with terrorism. There are only a few people here who are trying to keep terrorism undefined. If we concentrate on the article, instead of letting them confuse the issue, we can get the job done.
I have proposed this definition, not as something perfect, but as something that conveys information—-a starting point. The purpose of a definition is to convey information, so that much is a bare minimum. I think my proposal is a step in the right direction because it more closely matches these characteristics for what I believe a great article should encompass. --Zephram Stark 15:59, 7 September 2005 (UTC)
Zehpram I looked at your participation on the al-Qaeda page and you introduced a reasonable definition without neologisms or original research, and you did not try to shove it down everyone's throat, you didn't engage in personal attacks and you didn't insist on typing everything in obnoxious colors and fonts. Thgere was no big controversy over your behavior on the talk page because you weren't being completely out of line, like you are here. Your definition on that page raised no controversy. Here it raised controversy because there was original research, there were absurd neologisms that nobody has ever used before, and you "defended" your definition by constant reversions by you and by anon ips that mysteriously appeared whenever you had run out of reverts, as well as by personal attacks and the demeanor of an 8-year-old stomping their foot. Nobody here wants you to offer a starting point for a new definition because of your conduct. The issues here have little to do with the content of your "contribution" -- that issue was settled long ago. The issue is with your conduct, and it is really way out of line. I have been in some disputes with other users before, but I have never seen anything like this. You may think you're just being tenacious but I encourage you to take a step back for a few days and consider this from other perspectives. --csloat 19:11, 7 September 2005 (UTC)
I don't believe that you looked deeply enough, Commodore. The al Qaeda article was bitterly fought over for months. An NPOV tag has been on the article for most of its existence. The definition was locked for weeks at a time, and people like you played the same games of diverting attention away from the content of the article. When I was personally attacked, I would defend myself. When I saw ulterior motives, I would point them out. At the same time, I worked with everyone who was serious about improving the article until the we succeeded in creating a stable NPOV definition. Occasionally, people still try to undefine the definition of al Qaeda by throwing up contradictory smoke-screens, but their agenda becomes increasingly apparent over time. They're the ones, like you, who only create problems, not solutions.
Please feel free to prove me wrong. Many people have proposed solutions to which you could contribute. I would also love to hear you propose a solution of your own. --Zephram Stark 20:25, 7 September 2005 (UTC)
I have proposed a solution, which is for you to STFU. I have also proposed changes to the intro, which you belittled, because your only interest seems to be to cause trouble, rather than to actually improve the article. But the only "problem" needing a solution is your disruption of this page, and the solution is easy - for you to stop disrupting the page. As for the al-Qaeda page, don't give me this "months of debate" crap like you made up about this page. If there are diffs you would like to point us to that show us what you're talking about, please feel free to, otherwise you are just making up more crap.--csloat 23:10, 7 September 2005 (UTC)

Just one Sentence

Let's play a little game called Just One Sentence. In it, we'll take turns proposing the first sentence for the terrorism article. Anyone can play, but you can't reject the previous person's proposal unless you can come up with a better one yourself. When we get to the point that nobody can propose something better, that must be the best possible first sentence we can get. --Zephram Stark 18:15, 7 September 2005 (UTC)

I'll start:

  • Terrorism is the systematic use of intimidation for the purpose of governing, opposing government, or as a type of warfare.
  • According to the Department of Defence, terrorism is "the calculated use of unlawful violence or threat of unlawful violence to inculcate fear; intended to coerce or to intimidate governments or societies in the pursuit of goals that are generally political, religious, or ideological." In practice, the exact definition varies - it has descriptive and prescriptive..." Remove from "Definitions of "terrorism" generally" to "See State terrorism." Where relevent insert into body text. Lose the entire definitions section. Hipocrite - «Talk» 19:01, 7 September 2005 (UTC)
I disagree that Hipocrite's definition is better because I think the Department of Defence is biased. Asking a government to define terrorism is like asking David Berkowitz to define mass-murderer. If we have to quote a definitive source, I think the OED description, that I propose below, is written from an NPOV. --Zephram Stark 19:29, 7 September 2005 (UTC)
I disagree that the above definition is better that Hipocrite's because Jayjg's doesn't convey any information. I think we can all agree that the minimum purpose of a definition is to convey information. --Zephram Stark 19:29, 7 September 2005 (UTC)
Nobody said it was a definition. He claimed it was a good first sentence, and I agree with him. I think we can all agree that trying to wrap up the usage of this word in one short simple straightforward sentence is never going to be possible, and these two sentences are a good way to introduce the article. – Smyth\talk 19:46, 7 September 2005 (UTC)
In that case, I think we have a format dispute that needs to be worked out before we can agree on how to add content. I'll start a section for that. --Zephram Stark 19:52, 7 September 2005 (UTC)
If it's definitions you're looking for, "Terrorism is the use of force by non-governmental groups or individuals with the intent of deliberately killing or injuring civilians in order to achieve political ends". Jayjg (talk) 20:27, 7 September 2005 (UTC)
Is that from the Qur'an? --Zephram Stark 20:40, 7 September 2005 (UTC)
Oh, I thought you were trying to engage in meaningful discourse. I won't make that error again. Jayjg (talk) 20:59, 7 September 2005 (UTC)
I guess I misunderstood you. When you said that it was a definition, I thought you meant that it was taken from something. Since you didn't provide a source, I thought the authoritarianism of it sounded like the Qur'an. --Zephram Stark 21:08, 7 September 2005 (UTC)
Please don't bother with the B.S., Stark, you know the Qur'an contains no definitions of terrorism. Where did your proposed definitions come from? Any of them? You just invented them. Your agenda here is clear, it is purely for POV pushing and disruption. You are dismissed. Jayjg (talk) 21:13, 7 September 2005 (UTC)
I've never read the Qur'an, but the quotes I've heard from it are consistent with your definition of terrorism being specifically non-governmental: the government gets it's power from God and anyone who disagrees is against God, evil, or some other pejorative term. In a government of the people, like we have here in the good old USA, we would never require government exclusion from a potentially pejorative term. Here, our representatives only get their power from us, so it is possible for them to be just as corrupt as any non-governmental group, or more so. --Zephram Stark 21:36, 7 September 2005 (UTC)
  • The Oxford English Dictionary defines terrorism as "a policy intended to strike with terror those against whom it is adopted; the employment of methods of intimidation; the fact of terrorizing or condition of being terrorized." --Zephram Stark 19:29, 7 September 2005 (UTC)
  • Terrorism is life-threatening violence directed against civilians, perpetrated by a non-state entity (or covertly by a nation) and not contained within the geographic region it is designed to "liberate" (from the POV of the perpetrators). StuRat 20:15, 7 September 2005 (UTC)
I disagree that terrorism is necessarily life-threatening, necessarily violent, or necessarily directed against civilians. None of those things are required to terrorize someone. I don't think we should preclude the possibility that the word might be used in its original context. --Zephram Stark 20:53, 7 September 2005 (UTC)
I think we should, because "intense fear" clearly is not the subject of this article. – Smyth\talk 21:12, 7 September 2005 (UTC)
Let me make sure that I understand you correctly. You're saying that nobody uses terrorism to mean anything that could include "intense fear?" --Zephram Stark 21:21, 7 September 2005 (UTC)
I'm saying that "terrorism" in the ultra-broad sense that you propose, namely "any policy that causes intense fear" is not the subject of this article. – Smyth\talk 21:25, 7 September 2005 (UTC)
I don't believe that anybody proposed "any policy that causes intense fear." Where did you get that quote from? The closest I can find is the OED definition that you tried so hard to convince me was the most authoritative source. Personally, I would rather go with Webster. --Zephram Stark 23:05, 7 September 2005 (UTC)

Stark nobody wants to play your game because nobody trusts you. You pretend to be interested in improving the article until you get somebody sucked into discussing with you, then you start trolling, attacking, and playing games that make it clear you're not really interested in anything but causing trouble. So please stop it. --csloat 23:38, 7 September 2005 (UTC)

Exactly. "Fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice, shame on me". Jayjg (talk) 23:43, 7 September 2005 (UTC)

Format for the Article

It appears, from the section above, that we have a dispute over how the article should be laid out. Please offer your suggestions.

I think of an encyclopedia article as useful when it immediately conveys information. A user might want just a quick overview, in which case she might only want to read a sentence or two. Deeper researchers would want to start with an overview and then a table of contents. I can't think of anyone who would want to read an introduction that didn't tell them anything. For that reason, I propose that the format for our article be as follows: we start with the most definitive sentence that we can all agree encompasses terrorism. (It doesn't necessarily have to constrain it to our particular meaning yet.) After that, we constrain it further, into distinct categories if we have to, giving the full context of each usage. If you think there is a better way to format the intro to an encyclopedia article, please share it with us. --Zephram Stark 20:06, 7 September 2005 (UTC)

I think an encyclopedia article is useful when it immediately conveys factual information; articles which make unsourced and false claims, or original research are inherently not useful. Jayjg (talk) 20:22, 7 September 2005 (UTC)
Is your definition of factual something that is consistent with the scientific method, or does your factual have a higher, religious meaning? --Zephram Stark 20:36, 7 September 2005 (UTC)
What do you mean by that exactly, Zephram? SlimVirgin (talk) 21:02, September 7, 2005 (UTC)
It sounds to me like Jayjg is hinting that one or more of the sentences is factually incorrect. By my definition of factual, none of them could be considered incompatible with the scientific method, so I was wondering if he had a different definition. Often people cite religious beliefs as fact, so I was wondering if he meant they weren't factual from a religious standpoint. --Zephram Stark 21:16, 7 September 2005 (UTC)
I agree, in general. Have as precise a definition as we can agree upon up front, then list all the history and alternative defs, eventually getting to the wacky ones (I suppose al-Queda defines anyone who doesn't believe in their brand of Islam as a terrorist). On the other hand, if all we can agree upon is something like "an act that may or may not be violent, may or may not be against civilians, who may or may not be the primary target, for what may or may not be purposes of intimidation for what may or may not be political goals", then forget it. If that's all we can agree upon we might as well just say "We don't know !" and end it there.StuRat 20:27, 7 September 2005 (UTC)
I feel confident that if we continue to propose improvements to the first sentence proposal above, expanding the definition as needed to encompass the usages of everyone, we can come up with a first sentence we can all agree upon. --Zephram Stark 20:36, 7 September 2005 (UTC)

Unprotection proposal

Here begins yet another bloody section.

I can see that the content debate has restarted and seems like it will go on for a while. However, the article is not in a very good state right now, and I don't want to to remain locked indefinitely while we tortuously bash this out. Therefore, I suggest this:

  • The article will be unlocked, and small- and medium-scale editing will be able to resume.
  • Large-scale structural changes to the article, including substantial revisions of the introduction, will be required to achieve consensus on the talk page before they are committed.
  • Consensus means CONSENSUS. A lack of response is not consensus. Suggestions for major changes which receive a lack of response, should have responses solicited from contributors to the article and discussions over the last few months.
  • Nobody will obnoxiously claim to have consensus when they do not, or fake consensus by the use of sockpuppets.
  • These rules will apply to everyone, including me.

– Smyth\talk 21:49, 7 September 2005 (UTC)

Agreed, with the proviso that consensus means Wikipedia:Consensus, which ranges from 60% to 80% agreement, depending on the issue. And, of course, sockpuppets and IPs never count for these things. Jayjg (talk) 22:01, 7 September 2005 (UTC)
So basically we all have to abide by the policies of Wikipedia? Yeah, that works for me. Carbonite | Talk 22:41, 7 September 2005 (UTC)

Let me make sure I understand your proposal correctly. You want to have the non-definitional intro on the article, and nobody can ever change it unless they solicit responses and get answers back from everyone who has contributed to the article or the discussion over the past few months? On top of that, anyone that Jayjg labels a sockpuppet isn't included in the consensus? --Zephram Stark 22:35, 7 September 2005 (UTC)

Agreed, as long as we start with an introduction that conveys information, and I get to pick the sockpuppets this time. --Zephram Stark 22:38, 7 September 2005 (UTC)
You mean, reuse the sockpuppets, don't you? --Calton | Talk 00:26, September 8, 2005 (UTC)
I honestly don't think anyone is going to solicit votes from everyone who has contributed to the discussion, since most of them were only here to badmouth other editors and sometimes even said that they had no interest in the article. How about a more realistic proposal?

Proposal #2: Because the current introduction is factually incorrect, we obviously can't use it, so lets just agree on one sentence that encompasses everyone's definitions and leave the intro at that until we can agree on more. We can put proposals in a special section on our watchlist and anyone who cares to vote can do so. If we get a seventy percent consensus over any three day period, that becomes the new intro. Sockpuppets are also determined in their own section by a seventy percent consensus. --Zephram Stark 22:57, 7 September 2005 (UTC)

Is your definition of factual something that is consistent with the scientific method, or does your factual have a higher, religious meaning? Jayjg (talk) 23:00, 7 September 2005 (UTC)
Scientifically, of course. I'm quite sure that if a scientific study were done of the various usages of the word terrorism, absolutely none of them would be the nondefinition included in our article's introduction. --Zephram Stark 23:11, 7 September 2005 (UTC)
Ah, I see. Since terms like "terrorism" cannot be defined "scientifically", I was wondering if you were confusing science with your religious beliefs. Jayjg (talk) 23:25, 7 September 2005 (UTC)
No, not at all, but thanks for caring. --Zephram Stark 23:36, 7 September 2005 (UTC)

Hipocrite

I have a proposal -- how about somebody who has a specific problem with the current definition articulate precisely what that problem is, and attempt to rewrite the introduction to address that specific problem? Why not hammer out a consensus over a new definition on the discussion page and then let an admin make the change to the page so that it stays locked otherwise. Starting with a premise like "the current intro is factually incorrect" is totally useless unless we can identify what exactly is incorrect about it. --csloat 23:17, 7 September 2005 (UTC)

I have a problem with the current definition. I do not believe there is a verifiable source that states either that "there is no agreed upon definition" In fact - given the sections below, it seems there are quite a few agreed upon definitions. Additionally, I believe that saying "The word "terrorism" is controversial," begs the question of who and where (aside from this talk page) is said contravercy going on. Said question is not answered in the article. I have not read enough of this talk page to be certain my questions have not been answered prior - if they have, feel free to just assert such and I'll go digging through the archives. If I find they have not, however, I will be quite cross. I also believe the untoward focus on the WORD as opposed to the concept is more appropriate for Wikietymology, not Wikipedia. (unless I confused bugs and words.) Hipocrite - «Talk» 23:34, 7 September 2005 (UTC)
I see from your suggestion in #Just one sentence:
According to the Department of Defence, terrorism is "the calculated use of unlawful violence or threat of unlawful violence to inculcate fear; intended to coerce or to intimidate governments or societies in the pursuit of goals that are generally political, religious, or ideological." In practice, the exact definition varies - it has descriptive and prescriptive..." Remove from "Definitions of "terrorism" generally" to "See State terrorism." Where relevent insert into body text. Lose the entire definitions section.
... that you would want to keep at least some of the existing introduction, but it's not clear how much. Could you put together a draft and post it here? – Smyth\talk 06:52, 8 September 2005 (UTC)
ROFL
I'm glad I got you laughing. Hipocrite - «Talk» 02:39, 8 September 2005 (UTC)
If you look at many different sources, do you find the same basic definition of terrorism? If not, then there isn't an agreed upon definition.
I actually do see the same basic definition. For instance, all of the definitions somehow talk about violence or the threat thereof. All of them seem to talk about goals of some nature. Hipocrite - «Talk» 02:39, 8 September 2005 (UTC)
By "basic" definition, I mean essentially the same definition, allowing for slight differences in wording. Take a look at dictionary.com, which has definitions from three dictionaries. [2] Each definition has noticable difference, such as referring to civilians, declaring the act unlawful or mentioning government. In my opinion, these three are not the same basic definition. If we looked at what certain governments or groups have for definitions, they'd be even more disparity. Carbonite | Talk 02:56, 8 September 2005 (UTC)
Have countless hours and words been used to argue the definition of terrorism on this page alone? If so, then there is controversy. For outside sources, an AP article [3] (via Yahoo) states that "A definition of terrorism has long been controversial..." A Google search [4] for "definition+terrorism+controversy" returns over 600,000 hits.
Yes - certainly at the margins there is political contravercy. Can states be included?
I'm not sure that the controversy is limited in any way. Getting a majority of people to agree that a specific act is or is not terrorism may not be that difficult. However, trying to define a definition that covers all the acts considered terrorism and only those acts is virtually impossible. That's why there's so much controversy. Every time a definition is proposed, someone will soon think of a scenario that would break the definition. Carbonite | Talk 03:03, 8 September 2005 (UTC)
Before we can move forward, we must realize that no definition can be completely accurate or neutral. No definition will be accepted by all. We have to try our best to achieve Wikipedia:Consensus, which does not mean "everyone agrees". Carbonite | Talk 23:50, 7 September 2005 (UTC)
How about a disambiguation page? People could choose what every pre-9/11 dictionary and encyclopedia in the world says, or government propaganda, depending on what each person likes. --Zephram Stark 00:03, 8 September 2005 (UTC)
  • For what it's worth, there are indeed verifiable sources that assert that there is no agreed upon definition of terrorism. A quick Google search for "no agreed definition terrorism" came up with some fruitful references real quickly. Examples:

The struggle to define terrorism is sometimes as hard as the struggle against terrorism itself. The present view, claiming it is unnecessary and well-nigh impossible to agree on an objective definition of terrorism, has long established itself as the “politically correct” one. It is the aim of this paper, however, to demonstrate that an objective, internationally accepted definition of terrorism is a feasible goal, and that an effective struggle against terrorism requires such a definition. The sooner the nations of the world come to this realization, the better.[5]

There are several international conventions that define war crimes, but there is no internationally accepted definition of terrorism.[6]

Amnesty International does not use the word "terrorism". In our view it is simply not an acceptable term of use given that there is no internationally agreed definition of what the term means.[7]

--jpgordon∇∆∇∆ 00:06, 8 September 2005 (UTC)
I'm sure if Webster were alive today, he would do Google searches instead of writing definitions that mean anything. --Zephram Stark 00:15, 8 September 2005 (UTC)
Which demonstrates how little you actually know about how dictionaries are actually written. Check out Simon Winchester's The Professor and the Madman for a look at how the greatest English-language dictionary in history was actually produced. Hint: it wasn't from Olympian ego-driven pronouncements of a self-proclaimed expert. --Calton | Talk 00:25, September 8, 2005 (UTC)
Do tell. Did they do Google searches? Did they pronounce terms controversial and beyond definition? Did they provide a grab-bag of contradictory definitions and let people mix and match? --Zephram Stark 00:33, 8 September 2005 (UTC)
They would have happily used Google had it existed; they certainly used every other tool at their disposal to acquire their informaion. Yes, they did provide grab-bags of contradictory definitions and let people mix and match, if they found that the actual usage of the term being defined had a grab-bag of contradictory definitions. Even simple words can have dozens of different definitions, and dictionaries record that. --jpgordon∇∆∇∆ 00:44, 8 September 2005 (UTC)
Stark, you have an amazing talent for asking irrelevant rhetorical questions as smokescreens, and make a convincing argument why you don't belong anywhere near the editing this or any other article. But to give you a bit of an education, since I don't have the book to hand, I'll use Wikipedia's article on the OED:

[Richard Chenevix] Trench suggested that nothing short of a new and truly comprehensive dictionary would do: one that would be based on contributions from a large number of volunteer readers, who would read books, copy out passages illustrating various actual uses of words onto quotation slips, and mail them to the editor...

It was [Charles] Murray who really got the project off the ground and was able to tackle its true scale. Because he had many children, he chose not to use his house (in the London suburb of Mill Hill) itself as a workplace; an iron outbuilding, which he called the Scriptorium, was erected for him and his assistants. It was provided with 1,029 pigeon-holes and many bookshelves...

Murray now tracked down and regathered the slips already collected ...but he found them inadequate because readers had focused on rare and interesting words...He therefore issued a new appeal for readers, which was widely published in newspapers and distributed in bookstores and libraries. This time readers were specifically asked to report "as many quotations as you can for ordinary words" as well as all of those that seemed "rare, obsolete, old-fashioned, new, peculiar or used in a peculiar way....Soon 1,000 slips per day were arriving at the Scriptorium, and by 1882 there were 3,500,000 of them.

So yes, the editors of the OED did the late 19th-century equivalent of Google searching, and yes, if you actually look in the OED, they do provide a grab-bag of contradictory definitions and let people mix and match.
So, do you have an other ludicrously inapt analogies to attempt to misdirect the conversations, or would you like to join the rest of us in the real world where objective black-and-white definitions of common terms are the exception, not the norm? You find it aesthetically troubling? Deal with it. --Calton | Talk 01:59, September 8, 2005 (UTC)
Calm down please, Hypocrite seems to be a serious editor and you should try to work with him. – Smyth\talk 06:52, 8 September 2005 (UTC)
WP:NPA. Hipocrite - «Talk» 02:34, 8 September 2005 (UTC)
RSVP. AWOL. QED. I'm sorry, I'm confused: is this Post Non-sequitor Initialisms Day? --Calton | Talk 03:22, September 8, 2005 (UTC)

At the risk of wading further into this than I already have, I'd like to say that I agree with Stark's idea of a disambiguation page. I know he can be a little abrasive, which can cause some of us to skim past his good points while we look for the next insult or point of argument, but this really is a good idea. Terrorism could be split into its various eras, and users can decide which time frame is appropriate for their search. The M.O. of terrorism today is quite different than the terrorism of the early 20th century, or even the terrorism of the 1970s and 1980s, and the motives are different as well. Governments have defined terrorism differently throughout its history, so it might simplify things to split the terms into separate pages. A few suggestions:

  • Early 20th Century European Nationalist terrorism (like the assassination of Archduke Ferdinand or the Reichstag Fire)
  • Late 20th Century American terrorism (such as the Murrah Building bombing, Ted Kozynski's mail bombs, or the firebombing of abortion clinics)
  • Pre-9/11/01 Mid-East terrorism (airplane hijackings in Algeria, bombings by Lybians, the fatwas declared on writers and artists like Salman Rushdie, the hostage taking of the Israeli Olympic team in Germany)
  • Post-9/11/01 terrorism (starting with and including those initial attacks) which has led to military action on a more unified and global scale. (This could be the "terrorism" page re-named, and it would be where most of the arguments that we're having right now would likely continue.)

I'm sure there are lots more categories, but the great thing about wikipedia is that there's no limit to the number of articles we can spin off of this one. I would say that defining European Nationalist terrorism circa 1910 will generate much less controversy than current definitions, so we could at least get some good solid pages on the various faces of terrorism in the past. Maybe if we can get a few cohesive articles written on less controversial eras, we could begin to see a common thread that could help us in our definition here.

Is anyone else willing to help with this, without letting the current disagreements spill over into twenty new articles? I'm willing to try. Kafziel 14:13, 8 September 2005 (UTC)

That would be original research. If you want a typology of terrorism check out David C. Rapaport's - he breaks down terrorism into premodern (KKK, sons of Liberty) and modern (everything since the end of 19th century). Modern terrorism is the actions of individuals or small groups against larger groups, and was made possible by the invention of dynamite and the rotary press. He breaks down modern terrorists into 4 "waves" - the anarchist wave, the anti-colonial wave (including early Irish and Zionist terrorism), the new Left wave (including the Palestinian and "Red" terrorists of the 60s-70s) and the religious wave (beginning on the Muslim new year in 1979). It's a nice typology, accurate in some ways, but the problem is it breaks down if you look at many specific incidents. Where do the Serb nationalists who attacked New York in the 70s belong? What about Timothy McVeigh? etc. It's just not that great scholarship since there are so many things that occur that do not fit typologies easily. I suggest we could indicate that such typologies exist but I don't think it's in the scope of Wikipedia to create new ones. That's not to say we can't have different headings to talk about different phenomena as we do on other pages, but that we should not make it seem like a definitive typology. --csloat 20:30, 8 September 2005 (UTC)

I draft a proposal:

User:Hipocrite/Terrorism. Please feel free to edit said user-space article.

Starting with the definitions used by some American governmental agencies seems highly American-centric to me. Jayjg (talk) 20:42, 8 September 2005 (UTC)
I agree, but otherwise it seems good. Would Hipocrite agree to replacing the first sentence with The OED defines terrorism as the actions of "a clandestine or expatriate organization aiming to coerce an established government by acts of violence against it or its subjects".?– Smyth\talk 06:52, 9 September 2005 (UTC)
I don't give two shakes about where the definition in the intro comes from, as long as this article spends more time talking about Terrorism, and less time about the eytmology of a word that starts with the letter T. Hipocrite - «Talk» 11:37, 9 September 2005 (UTC)
That's an odd definition. Clandestine or expatriate? SlimVirgin (talk) 06:58, September 9, 2005 (UTC)
Then suggest another one, from a source that people won't immediately complain about. The one worthwhile thing ZP said was that we need some sort of simple definition in the introduction. Look at the intro right now and pretend you're an alien or foreigner who's never seen the word before, and see how confused you'd be. – Smyth\talk 07:09, 9 September 2005 (UTC)
What version of the OED are you using? It doesn't say anything like that under "terrorism" in mine. --Go Cowboys 17:24, 9 September 2005 (UTC)
I retrieved it from their website, which my university has a subscription to. It is actually listed under "terrorist", but one of the entries under "terrorism" refers specifically to it. – Smyth\talk 18:33, 9 September 2005 (UTC)
I've been reading through all this talk history with a few grins and tears. It looks like you tried to misquote the OED once before in this same way and got caught. Making up definitions is one thing, but incorrectly citing a source is a serious offense. It's compounded by the fact that you hid it by only quoting part of the definiton of another word that it referenced, that you did it again after being caught, and that you tried to mix up the accusation after you were caught again. If you would like my advice, I think you should just say that you're sorry and move on. --Go Cowboys 18:55, 9 September 2005 (UTC)
Zephram, it was these kinds of attacks that got you banned before. Jayjg (talk) 20:55, 9 September 2005 (UTC)

UnblockingUnprotecting

I'm inclined to unblock now. The consensus is obvious and defendable; and given ZS's fucking Jews comment, it seems to me that we can proceed without worrying about his opinion or behaviour. --jpgordon∇∆∇∆ 00:38, 9 September 2005 (UTC)

Good idea, Jp. SlimVirgin (talk) 01:06, September 9, 2005 (UTC)
I did actually mean "unprotect". --jpgordon∇∆∇∆ 01:09, 9 September 2005 (UTC)
When I first glanced at your post, I thought it meant you were going to unblock old Zeph. I was thinking you'd gone soft in your old age. ;-) SlimVirgin (talk) 01:13, September 9, 2005 (UTC)


I've unprotected the article. Have at it! --jpgordon∇∆∇∆ 02:21, 9 September 2005 (UTC)

Splitting Terrorist from Terrorism

Reading through this, the problem seems obvious to me. "Terrorist" is being redirected here. Some of you are trying to define a "terrorist", while others are trying to define "terrorism". They are two different words with different meanings. Look it up in any dictionary. "Terrorist" is almost always used to mean bad guys, but "terrorism" is used to describe an act that is often talked about without much negative emotion at all. Simply split the two definitions into "terrorist" and "terrorism", and the problem is solved. --Go Cowboys 17:31, 9 September 2005 (UTC)

Zephram, haven't we all made it clear we're not interested in your original research? Jayjg (talk) 20:57, 9 September 2005 (UTC)
Jayjg, how is citing a dictionary "original research" exactly? I second User:Go Cowboys' terrorism vs terrorist distinction proposal (though some note on the misuse and/or the intertwined nature of the words' definitions should be mentioned in both articles) zen master T 08:30, 10 September 2005 (UTC)
Which dictionary has Zephram Stark/Go Cowboys cited? I see none; rather, he gives his impressions about some differences he believes exist between the words, based on his claim that he sees "hate in their eyes" when he watches people use the word terrorist on TV, and ignoring the rather obvious point that terrorism is the action, terrorists are those who do terrorism. Cowboys/Stark keeps pretending that there is some "objective" definition of terrorism that he wants to enter here, as distinct from some "pejorative" definition of the term that everyone else wants to keep. As his latest ploy, he's trying to shunt off the "pejorative" definition into an article called "terrorist", so he can insert his personal "objective" definitions here. Please review Wikipedia:No original research. Jayjg (talk) 01:35, 11 September 2005 (UTC)
Would you like to work it up into a proposal, or should I have a crack at it? I would be happy to work on it if there are no serious objections. --Go Cowboys 14:37, 10 September 2005 (UTC)
It's all relative. Go Cowboy's key point is that terrorism != terrorist, are you disputing the need for separate, distinct articles? zen master T 15:00, 10 September 2005 (UTC)
When I watch news on the tele, you can see hate in their eyes when they say "terrorist". It is hard for people to say "terrorist" without meaning "evil person". The same is not true for "terrorism". People talk about it dispassionately all the time. Often the same people who talk about a "terrorist" as though he were Satan-incarnate, also talk about "terrorism" quite rationally. That is what I see here also. Some people want a term for an action that they can discuss rationally. Others want another way of saying "evil person". We can do both. A "terrorist" can be a bad guy at the same time that "terrorism" is discussed rationally, just like on the tele. --Go Cowboys 15:06, 10 September 2005 (UTC)
I dunno, I don't think much of anything is discussed rationally on tv. Though I strongly agree there should be a distinction between terrorist and terrorism article wise. zen master T 15:12, 10 September 2005 (UTC)
I guess I'm just puzzled. A "terrorist" is one who commits "terrorism". Am I missing some other definition? --jpgordon∇∆∇∆ 15:19, 10 September 2005 (UTC)
That makes logical sense, but it is neither consistent with most official definitions or with common use. --Go Cowboys 15:35, 10 September 2005 (UTC)
In that case, the answer is "yes, I'm missing some other definition". Please supply one. (By the way, your observations about seeing hate in people's eyes on TV is interesting original research; can you point me to some published data regarding this phenomenon?) --jpgordon∇∆∇∆ 15:49, 10 September 2005 (UTC)
That is my conclusion. I think it's pretty obvious, but I have never included that in an article because it is a secondary source. Stating logical conclusions based on factual data is certainly allowed by Wikipedia when used in discussion about an article. I think you already knew that. --Go Cowboys 16:56, 10 September 2005 (UTC)
So, what's this "some other definition" I'm missing? --jpgordon∇∆∇∆ 23:05, 10 September 2005 (UTC)
I don't see the need for separate articles. Terrorist and terrorism both have negative connotations, and they are not separate phenomena. Terrorism is a tactic, terrorists are people who use terrorism. If someone is using "terrorist" in a way that disconnects it from terrorism, it's just rhetorical nonsense (of which there is plenty, but Wikipedia is an encyclopedia, not a comprendium of rhetorical nonsense.) Isomorphic 16:53, 10 September 2005 (UTC)
I'm back!! --Zephram Stark 00:28, 11 September 2005 (UTC)
For those who haven't noticed, he's now banned for another two days for creating User:Go Cowboys, and crudely cloning the userpage of User:Zzyzx11 to conceal the account's newness. – Smyth\talk 09:38, 11 September 2005 (UTC)
What does it take to ban him for good? He has shown again and again that he has nothing valuable to contribute. I find it especially distasteful to witness his attempts to pretend to be interested in actually improving things around here (see below; assuming "Professor Stevens" is not yet another sock). His sockpuppetry continues to be a problem (and has been verified by David Gerard). I have a hard time even thinking about working on articles where he is actively trying to commandeer the discussion.csloat 05:38, 19 September 2005 (UTC)
What does it take to ban me? How about actually doing something wrong? As you may have noticed on the Request for Comments page, people actually investigate your allegations. They know that I absolutely did not create any sockpuppets; that David Gerard did not verify any claims that I did; that I contribute considerably to Wikipedia; and that, if you have a hard time thinking or working, it's a personal problem.
Wikipedia is not about rising to the top by kissing the derrieres of powerful schlemiels, or by henpecking those who refuse. It's about creating articles for an encyclopedia resource that we want people to trust. When people outside of your circle of friends look at this discussion page, they see about half of us trying to create an introduction for terrorism that actually conveys information, while the other half tries to invalidate our efforts. Your actions, not your words, convey which side of the struggle you are on. --Zephram Stark 14:58, 19 September 2005 (UTC)
User_talk:David_Gerard#Sockpuppet_check_request. Mister Stark, in addition to all your other fine qualities, you're a liar. – Smyth\talk 17:22, 19 September 2005 (UTC)

As I said on the WikiEN-l mailing list a few days ago, Mr. Gerard's statements could not be considered proof, evidence, or even supported conjecture. If Mr. Gerard did IP lookups for these editors, is there any reason why he can't post the results so that we can see the similarities (if any)? Is there any reason why he can't show us the output of a proxycheck instead of alluding to open proxies?

I can think of one reason: total disclosure would not be loyal to the cause. The faithfulness I see amongst administrators is important to the smooth operation of an association. Yet historically, it has also been the breeding ground for corruption. Exclusion is a sure warning sign that methods of punishment are forming and malfeasance is creeping into the system. When it gets to the point that administrators like Jayjg and SlimVirgin don't even try to tie punishment back to any rule or standard of Wikipedia, we can know for certain that their actions are driving off good editors and contributors to this work.

At some point, the corruption becomes so blatant that it is impossible to get much of anything productive accomplished. At that point, the system fails. I hope we will not wait that long to do something about it. When there is ample evidence of administrators using their power to bias the content of articles, it is time for them to relinquish that power. Loyalty can include all Wikipedia editors when our power to influence articles is based solely on the quality of our edits. --Zephram Stark 20:39, 19 September 2005 (UTC)

Erased from the collective memory?

I've removed the following recent addition:

Government involvement in terrorist activities, and their true nature, is typically hidden from the civilian population. Even when revealed in blockbuster fashion, it can effectively be erased from collective memory. For example, in the US, the Reagan administration's support for attacks against civilians in Nicaragua, through the Contras, was made illegal by the US congress, and resulted in convictions of high-level Reagan appointees. Yet this high-profile terrorist sponsorship was forgotten in the US, long before Reagan's death in 2004.

This strikes me as inaccurate, not to mention OR. "Forgotten in the US"? Not at all. It's quite well remembered, and was brought up in the non-synoptic media any time criminality in the White House or the history of the Reagan presidency was discussed, and of course at the time of Reagan's death. "Effectively erased from collective memory"? Perhaps the editor who added this might wish to tone down the hyperbole to make his or her point. --jpgordon∇∆∇∆ 02:23, 11 September 2005 (UTC)


Consensus in Action

In an ideal implementation of consensus, "those who wish to take up some action want to hear those who oppose it, because they count on the fact that the ensuing debate will improve the consensus" ~Wikipedia. In less than ideal circumstances, however, is there an objective codification of consensus to which we can agree temporarily, in order to produce a definitive introduction to the terrorism article? I would like to try a rule-based implementation of consensus for the reason that no other method has successfully produced a stable and objective introduction to terrorism .

Imagine the article to be a blank page to which we will only add items that we can all agree are an improvement over the last accepted proposal. Thus, our first proposal only needs to be an improvement over a blank page. A proposal to replace it would only need to improve upon it. We do not need to agree that each step is perfect, true, good, or beautiful—-only that it is an improvement over the last.

Good faith, and an assumption that opinions of all editors are valuable, must be present in order for this to work. If there is any motive except improvement over the last accepted proposal, this attempt at consensus will fail. Please limit your discussion in this section to whether or not each proposal conveys better information than the prior accepted proposal. If anyone stands by their logical argument as to why it is not at least a little bit better, a proposal is dropped and goes back to the previous article until agreement on change can be established. Let's make an honest attempt at consensus and see how good of an introduction we can create. --Zephram Stark 15:11, 16 September 2005 (UTC)

  • Terrorism is the systematic use of terror.
I believe this definition is better than a blank page. It is simply a breakdown of the word: terror + ism. If you think a blank page is better than this, please explain why you feel that way. Otherwise, please propose an introduction that you think is an improvement over this one. --Zephram Stark 15:11, 16 September 2005 (UTC)
In the hundreds of classroom discussions I have conducted on terrorism, every one has produced high passions and a desire to say, “Let’s just agree to disagree.” Yet having no common ground yields no way to discuss the matter. Instead of forcing an answer, we look at the questions, “What is terrorism?” “Why do we want to know?” “Why is it hard to define?” “What prejudices are involved in the various definitions of terrorism?” There may be no common ground in the answers to these questions, but there is agreement that the questions exist, in the underlying motivations for these questions, and in the reasons for the wide discrepancy in the answers. Common ground is the foundation of an encyclopedia article. Without it, nothing exists to tie the various sections together. While there may be no agreed upon answers as to what it is or whether it is legitimate, philosophical questions about the use of terror exist. Thus, Terrorism is, at the very least, a philosophical issue. Every classroom in which I have conducted this discussion has agreed to use questions about the effectiveness and legitimacy of terrorism as a rudimentary foundation in defining the term. It has proven to be enough. With such a simple concept as a common ground on which to build, people from all backgrounds and belief systems have been able to work together in harmony to discuss the ramifications of various usages and official definitions. Regardless of whatever else we can say about terrorism, it is, at the very least, a philosophy. Proof of that is this very discussion. When one wants to say that a philosophy of something exists, without saying anything else about it, one typically coins the new term as [something]ism.
Here is my proposal, which I think is better than Zephram Stark's, which is better than a blank page, which in turn, is better than the current article. --Professor Stevens 18:15, 18 September 2005 (UTC)

Professor Stevens Proposal

Terrorism is a philosophy, and the implementation of a philosophy, that terror can be used as an effective and legitimate means of coercion. The definition of the term has become a battleground in a war to promote or reject that philosophy.

  • Opponents typically reject the legitimacy of terrorism on moral grounds by assigning pejorative meanings to its definition: kills or hurts innocent civilians, breaks the law, seeks to destroy freedom, et cetera. Outside of moral issues, the effectiveness of terrorism is alleged to conflict with the basic humanity and natural rights of those being terrorized.
  • Proponents typically focus on the effectiveness of terrorism in: producing war weariness, drawing a civilian population into a conflict, causing government overreaction, eliminating civil liberties of the enemy, recruitment to the cause, et cetera. Issues of morality are dealt with in distinct and separate ways depending on the size and power of the terrorist organization. An overwhelming force typically points to the greater good of coercion over a conventional military strike, or the necessity of liberating an oppressed population from their own despondency and prejudice. A significantly weaker force points out that a conventional military strike would not be effective, and yet they are compelled by their basic humanity to fight for freedom. The same natural rights alleged by opponents to make terrorism ineffective are also used to explain why repressed people are willing to prioritize acts of terrorism over everything else, including their lives.

The basic assertions of both opponents and proponents of the philosophy have objective merit. It is generally considered true that terrorism has no basis in popular morality, and that those being terrorized cannot give up their natural rights. At the same time, terrorism has historically been effective in many instances. Moreover, the basic tenets of our civilization assert that humanity’s natural rights compel us to fight against subjugation. The various definitions of terrorism which, more or less effectively, resolve this discrepancy, along with the ramifications of these definitions, make up the subject of this article. --Professor Stevens 18:15, 18 September 2005 (UTC)

I disagree with your premise that a blank page is better than the entire article on terrorism. There are many great sections in the article. We just need a great introduction to go along with them. I think your preamble is brilliant. It is NPOV, factually correct, and touches on all usages of the term without stepping on people's toes. Even more impressively, it makes me want to read what's next! Good job. Can anyone think of something better? --Zephram Stark 23:30, 18 September 2005 (UTC)
If nobody has any better suggestions than the preamble proposed by Professor Stevens above, does anyone have an issue with me adding appropriate links and replacing the current introduction with it? --Zephram Stark 04:02, 20 September 2005 (UTC)
"Nobody has a better suggestion" -- even if true -- does NOT mean any substitution for the old is warranted. And yes, I and -- I'd bet next week's paycheck on it -- many others do have an issue with you even touching this article, let alone your unilateral change. --Calton | Talk 04:20, 20 September 2005 (UTC)
We're trying to reach a consensus here. Please try to be constructive. I would love to hear your proposal that you think is an improvement on the one by Professor Stevens. --Zephram Stark 04:24, 20 September 2005 (UTC)
I'm sorry Mr. Stark; "we" are not trying to do anything, since that presumes that the rest of us want to have anything to do with you and your sock puppets. Here's my proposal -- you and your sock puppets go bother someone else and leave the rest of us to figure out what "terrorism" means on our own. I have no interest in any further interactions with someone whose conduct on this forum is so disruptive and who then calls us racist names when he doesn't get his way. Get lost, please.--csloat 05:03, 20 September 2005 (UTC)
All that matters to me is that the job gets done. If you can create an article for terrorism that conveys information—-enables the word to be used in a sentence—-that's all that I or any of the dozens of other people calling for a definitive introduction, throughout the archives, have ever wanted. It is blatantly POV to say terrorism is so vague that it can't be defined while giving specific examples of terrorism and limiting others. Examples of terrorism listed in the article seem to be based solely on what the United States and Israeli governments label terrorism for purposes of propaganda. I can't figure out any other definition that would include those examples while excluding much more obvious instances. For example, even though over a billion people refer to the 1990s sanctions against Iraq that killed over a million people (mostly children under the age of five) as terrorism, nobody has ever tried to create a listing for it. What definition precludes this blatant coercion of a sovereign government through the systematic use of terror against its citizens, yet includes the assassination of Anwar Sadat? Obviously, one that starts out "The word 'terrorism' is controversial, with no universally agreed definition." --Zephram Stark 18:51, 20 September 2005 (UTC)

For example, even though over a billion people refer to the 1990s sanctions against Iraq that killed over a million people (mostly children under the age of five) as terrorism, nobody has ever tried to create a listing for it. Sure someone has, Zephram - you have. That's what all your edits have been about here, from the very start - trying to write an article that defines the U.N. sanctions on Iraq as "terrorism". Jayjg (talk) 22:19, 20 September 2005 (UTC)

LOL... I had no idea, but I found myself in the middle of this brawl a few weeks later than everyone else, so I never saw what started it. the funny thing is, had he actually just come out and said that, he might have actually been able to persuade some of us "fucking Jews" that he was correct. Instead there are now many of us who simply cannot and will not even try to take seriously anything at all that he or any of his sock puppets have to say here.--csloat 05:34, 21 September 2005 (UTC)
Yes, that was the start, though of course he denies it now. Here's his first re-write of the page, where he inserts a whole bunch of text about the Gulf War and economic sanctions being terrorism, and attempts to cast doubt on whether the 9/11 attacks were terrorism. You see, in his view, the U.S. is the big terrorist player here, and so it is trying to re-define terrorism to blame others and absolve itself. Zephram feels he must combat that by be creating his own definitions of terrorism that cast blame the U.S. and absolve others, and anyone who opposes his politically motivated original research must be trying to support the U.S. President.[8] Thus every one of his one-man re-writes of the articles (errr, "consensus versions"), is another attempt to create a definition in which the United States is the villain because it is committing "objective terrorism", and others are innocent because they are merely being accused of "subjective terrorism", "pejorative terrorism", "FISA terrorism", etc. Jayjg (talk) 15:30, 22 September 2005 (UTC)
You can see from the edit history that neither I, nor anyone else, has tried to edit the article in that way. I don't have any secret agenda. My purpose is to help create a great article. Consistency of examples is necessary to create an NPOV piece. Can anyone take Wikipedia seriously when we list specific examples without clear definitions? --Zephram Stark 04:14, 21 September 2005 (UTC)
I'm willing to sit here and talk about the article, to try to reach a consensus with anyone who wants to define the term, for as long as it takes. I have proposed an objective introduction. Professor Stevens has proposed a radically different objective introduction. Either one is a dramatic improvement over the current intro that conveys no information.
As I'm sure everyone can see by now, there are people who want to keep terrorism undefined, but we know who they are. They're the ones who talk about anything else but how to make our article convey information. Are they going to succeed? Are they going to prove to the world that Wikipedia cannot be a serious resource? The answer to that question is entirely up to us. I, for one, am going to continue talking about a definitive introduction until it happens. I am going to keep requesting comments from other editors who are interested in helping us create something great here. I am going to place NPOV and Factual Dispute tags on the article until the blatant POV and untruths are removed. I welcome you to improve any of the proposed definitions or submit one of their own. While we will never come to a consensus with those who want to keep the definition undefined, I feel quite confident that anyone proposing an improvement to a definition that conveys information will be taken seriously. --Zephram Stark 00:33, 22 September 2005 (UTC)
Professor Stevens, with his extensive contributions history of one, seems to have gone off and left you in the lurch, Zeph. Back to being a lone voice in the wilderness until the next sockpuppet appears. SlimVirgin (talk) 00:42, 22 September 2005 (UTC)
No emergency here, just more comments from the peanut gallery. I'm going to make a radical proposal that we simply ignore anyone not trying to improve the article. --Zephram Stark 01:16, 22 September 2005 (UTC)
If you're going to ignore everyone who's being a nuisance, I foresee tricky problems of self-reference. SlimVirgin (talk) 01:29, 22 September 2005 (UTC)


Proposal from a f*cking Jew

As one of the "fucking Jews" that Stark has made many personal attacks against, I object to his continued hijacking of the discussion on the page and to his pretending to be interested in improving it. I think it's quite telling that he continues to ignore the fact that there is already a definition of terrorism page that is helpful in this discussion, or that he continues to suggest original research definitions and support them with known sockpuppets. He even had me convinced for a minute that EKDK was not a sock, until I remembered that EKDK was the one who claimed that he and his college friends use the term "FISA-terrorism" all the time. Riiiight. I am happy to support changes in the current intro to the article but I am very uncomfortable with any input at all from Mr. Stark, no matter how "constructive" it appears on the surface, because I do not trust his input at all. He has made it impossible for me to assume good faith. He keeps imposing "tests" on the definitions people propose in order to steer things back to his OR definition. Then he invents sock puppets like "Professor Stevens" who chime in at just the right time. It is appalling to me that people are taking seriously his suggestion that we have this discussion on his terms only. The only voices I have seen worth ignoring in this discussion are those of Mr. Stark and his sockpuppets.--csloat 22:21, 22 September 2005 (UTC)

I'm not a sockpuppet, for the millionth time, and these dimwitted attempts to portray me as such are TIRESOME!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Administration knows I'm not, those who contacted me, so GROW UP csloat! I am here as an individual, and any contributions I make need not be slurred by your erroneous assumptions.--EKBK 15:09, 23 September 2005 (UTC)
I happen to have first-hand knowledge that Jews have sex because otherwise I wouldn't be here. I don't know what the mating habits of Jews have to do with this article anyway. --Zephram Stark 00:05, 23 September 2005 (UTC)
All kidding aside, I like you Commodore. I've seen you contribute extensively to other articles and I would love to have your unbiased input on the proposals above. There's no hidden agenda here. I want the same thing that you say you want, a great article. We can do that together if you want. --Zephram Stark 01:11, 23 September 2005 (UTC)

Examples without parameters or a consistent definition are blatant POV

If you look through the history and archives of these discussions, you will notice dozens of people trying to create a definitive introduction for the article. One reason to do so is because the article references examples of the definition. Since there is no definition, these examples rely on nothing except the personal bias of the author. Until we can create a definition to apply to the examples, I think it's safe to say that they are POV. --Zephram Stark 14:31, 23 September 2005 (UTC)


What they don't want you to know

The people who want to keep terrorism undefined have sunk to a new low. Now they don't even want you to know what Osama bin Laden said about motivations behind the September 11, 2001 attacks. Here is the section in its entirety. If you think that any part of it is relevant to an article on terrorism, please click here and push [Save Page]. It doesn't matter if you have ever edited something or not. You can still express your opinion about the relevance of the following information. If you are an editor who doesn't want to get on anyone's bad side, but wants to do the right thing, just work anonymously without logging in. Here is the section in question. You decide if any of it could possibly be relevant to an article on terrorism. --Zephram Stark 14:50, 23 September 2005 (UTC)

The Importance of Objectively Defining Terrorism

In his New York Times bestseller, The President of Good and Evil, the eminent Jewish philosopher Peter Singer tries to make distinctions between the coercive actions of the United States government and the alleged terrorist attacks of September 11, 2001. Singer notes the use of intentions as the defining element in President George W. Bush’s speech to the United Nations General Assembly in November 2001: “In this world there are good causes and bad causes, and we may disagree on where the line is drawn. Yet there is no such thing as a good terrorist. No national aspiration, no remembered wrong, can ever justify the deliberate murder of the innocent.”

The United States unquestionably kills innocent people with its bombs and guns during its invasions. As the enforcement arm of U.N. sanctions against Iraq, the U.N. admits that U.S. intervention directly resulted in the deaths of over 800,000 children under the age of five. Since “murder of the innocent” certainly applies to the United States government, Singer observes that the critical term in Bush’s speech must be “deliberate.” By making intention an issue, Bush draws a black-and-white distinction between American murder of the innocent and Al-Qaeda murder of the innocent: bad guys intend to hurt the innocent while good guys only hurt the innocent because of collateral damage. Bush is essentially arguing that conventional warfare—-destruction and murder for the purpose of reducing an enemy’s physical ability to fight—-is morally acceptable, while terrorism—-destruction and murder for the purpose of coercion—-is morally reprehensible.

Singer then quotes Osama bin Laden in an October 2001 interview with Al-Jazeera television correspondent Tayseer Alouni. bin Laden said that the men who carried out the attack “intended to destroy the strongest military power in the world, to attack the Pentagon that houses more than 64,000 employees, a military center that houses the strength and the military intelligence.” About the World Trade Center towers, bin Laden said, “The towers are an economic power and not a children’s school. Those that were there are men that supported the biggest economic power in the world.” By bin Laden’s own mouth, the intention of the September 11, 2001 attack was a conventional warfare strike against the biggest military and economic threats to his countrymen. Since no coercion has been associated with the attack, it becomes hard to create a definition of terrorism that allows for the 2001 attacks against the United States mainland. Harder still would be the creation of a definition that also holds the United States government innocent for enforcing U.N. sanctions to coerce the Iraqi sovereign government by murdering over a million innocent Iraqi civilians. Singer says, “If we allow Bush to justify acts that he knew would kill innocents by saying that killing innocents was not his intention, then we should be aware that others, too, can use the same distinction.”

Request for Comment

Talk:Terrorism - Are quotes from Osama bin Laden, George W. Bush, and Peter Singer from his NYT bestseller about intentions behind the September 11, 2001 attack relevant to an article on terrorism? 15:03, 23 September 2005 (UTC)

This section keeps getting reverted out of existence. The explanations in history are:

Alex Bakharev m (I do not think this long passage is relevant, so revert)
Jpgordon (rv POV & OR)
BrandonYusufToropov (rv (snore))
Carbonite (RV)
Ashenai (reverted NPOV tag)
Carbonite (rv tag and text added in bad faith by likely sockpuppet)

The responses are:

Zephram Stark (Osama bin Laden's stated reasons for the September 11, 2001 attacks are entirely relevant to an article on Terrorism. If you think it's too long, edit it, but do no change the relevant cited sources.)
Zephram Stark (How can quotes from Osama bin Laden, George W. Bush, and a New York Times bestseller be POV and OR? Your bias is showing. Please do not war edit. Use discussion page. An RfC will be filed if continued)
Zephram Stark (Would an NPOV dispute tag be too much to ask for, just to show that a dispute exists over the reason you are deleting this cited and relevant information?)
71.38.227.2 (If you call me a sockpuppet, I'll kick your ass. I never knew Osama said that. It's important and it's going to stay if I have any say so.)
EKBK (Why are you trying to block this information?)

Please comment on what you see happening here. I believe that Osama bin Laden's stated reasons for the September 11, 2001 attack are relevant to an article on terrorism. Yet, they are being reverted out of existence. Even an attempt to say that a dispute about it exists is being reverted. Administrators are calling those who support the inclusion of the bin Laden quote "sockpuppets," which is an implied threat that they will be blocked or banned if they express their opinions. Last time that this happened, in this same article, more than a dozen innocent people were blocked or "permablocked" indefinitely. --Zephram Stark 16:24, 23 September 2005 (UTC)

I went looking for the text that you and the anons have been trying to add so I could understand the issue. I found two things:
  • America as a "murderer" and terrorist power - Aside from the obvious character attack, why this one country? I see no good reason for bashing Bush or U.S. in an article on terrorism. A truer representation would attack war in general, and that would be a subjective interpretation. Bush didn't invent military action. If I were to pick a single country to represent a nation as a terrorist, i.e. "terrorizing" innocents, I would pick Israel for destroying homes of innocent parents of suicide bombers or Palestine and Iraq, formerly, for supporting, encouraging, and even paying the bombers and their families for an attack. It still isn't pertinent to this article. I could see it as a separate article - but I think it already exists.
  • A poorly formulated rationalization for Osama's attack on America. - So what? A one-sided justification for killing innocents (towers as an economic power of its own? c'mon. does this make the twin towers a world entity? Republic of WTC? Do they have a flag?) that reads like a manifesto's book-jacket blurb. I'm pretty sure this ground is already covered in articles on Sept 11 and Osama.
The "supporters" seem to be identical to your purpose in method and text. Any established editors chiming in for this suggested change? - Tεxτurε 18:12, 23 September 2005 (UTC)
I think you missed the point of Singer's comparison of the two quotes. Singer wasn't trying to villainize or exonerate either side. He was trying to show that no single definition of terrorism made one side guilty and the other side innocent. I think that Singer's comparison is the reason why this article has gone four years without a definition. --Zephram Stark 18:28, 23 September 2005 (UTC)
I think you see an anectodal piece that few other readers would see. I see it as I described above and I believe many would. And, yes, I do see terrorism as guilty. Imposing "terror" on innocents to change government is guilty. Are governments guilty of other things? Sure. Terrorism? No. This article is about terrorism, not what the U.S. may have done that was not intended to "terrorize" civilians. This article should remain about terrorism and not about civilian casualties outside of that intent. There are several other articles that discuss government's guilt. That has nothing to do with terrorizing innocents. Murdering innocents? Debatable, but not terror. - Tεxτurε 18:35, 23 September 2005 (UTC)
The reason I used Israel as an example is that it was clearly to terrorize other potential bomber families into avoiding the destruction of their home and possible loss of life. (It doesn't work.) I could see a valid argument of that as "terrorism". - Tεxτurε 18:37, 23 September 2005 (UTC)
I can assure you that the quotes in the book are factual. The book is written as a serious analysis that was also on the New York Times bestseller list. What is the definition of terrorism from which you derive your examples? How do you quantify what is terrorism and what is not? --Zephram Stark 18:47, 23 September 2005 (UTC)
I'm curious, why do you not think that the analysis is "scientific"? (You removed the word from your comment.) - Tεxτurε 18:52, 23 September 2005 (UTC)
I would consider it a scientific analysis, but I didn't want to get side-tracked on whether or not you think it is. The argument is just as strong without that word. --Zephram Stark 21:52, 23 September 2005 (UTC)
I have not questioned if the quotes are factual. I have questioned your grouping and arrangement of the quotes and the appropriateness of including them in this article. I have suggested that other articles do, or could, include such information. - Tεxτurε 18:52, 23 September 2005 (UTC)
I welcome edits, if you think it could be written better, but that doesn't seem to be the purpose of those that deleted the information. They seem to want people to have no access to bin Laden's quote on why he committed that atrocity. --Zephram Stark 21:52, 23 September 2005 (UTC)
No, they just don't want the article to contain an editorial essay by you. – Smyth\talk 10:16, 24 September 2005 (UTC)

Not wanting to have editorial essays has been your contention all along, but I always suspected there was more to it than that. After all, most of the information in the currently-locked version is un-cited and blatantly untrue in its allusions that terrorism essentially doesn't have a definition. Wanting to give you the benefit of the doubt, however, I created a section composed entirely of verified quotes and summaries from the U.S. President, Osama bin Laden, and the New York Times bestseller on the subject of terrorism. Everything was fully cited and couldn't be more relevant to the subject of terrorism. Apparently without even thinking about the meaning of your standard rhetoric, you still called it an "editorial essay by you," the section was still deleted, anyone expressing their opinion about the importance of that section was still labeled a "sockpuppet" or "trouble maker," and a lock was still placed on the deleted version. Given these circumstances, can one derive anything from your actions but a motive of blatant corruption?

Obstructing information only gives it more power, even when the method of obstruction is an attempt to confuse or undefine the term. Call me the Fleet Enema of Wikipedia if you will, but four years without a definition makes "terrorism" one hell of a backed up system. --Zephram Stark 14:48, 24 September 2005 (UTC)

Request for Arbitration against Zephram Stark

Since many of the editors of this page have been involved with Zephram Stark, I am placing notice that arbitration against him has been requested. Please add any comments or relevant information. Carbonite | Talk 16:51, 23 September 2005 (UTC)

Don't you get tired of shooting yourself in the foot? If you don't want people to call you on your corruption, stop being corrupt. It's that simple. Trying to kill the messenger won't do you any good because everything you do on Wikipedia is transparent. That's the beauty of it. Anyone who wants to see if your accusations have merit is going to come to the same conclusion that they did the last time, that you are an idiot. --Zephram Stark 17:13, 23 September 2005 (UTC)
That comment is a perfect example of why arbitration was requested. Carbonite | Talk 17:16, 23 September 2005 (UTC)
Then let me rephrase. Carbonite, don't you get tired of shooting yourself in the foot? If you don't want people to call you on your corruption, stop being corrupt. It's that simple. Trying to kill the messenger won't do you any good because everything you do on Wikipedia is transparent. That's the beauty of it. Anyone who wants to see if your accusations have merit is going to come to the same conclusion that they did the last time: that your accusations of "sockpuppets" are unfounded, that you are the one disrupting the article on terrorism while I am actively trying to resolve differences, and that your ridiculous allegations fall squarely into the definition of idiocy. --Zephram Stark 17:26, 23 September 2005 (UTC)
Well, that's what arbitration is for. And this isn't arbitration against you; Carbonite is speaking incorrectly. It's arbitration with you; the history of arbitration here shows that parties commencing the arbitration often find themselves having to make serious concessions. --jpgordon∇∆∇∆ 22:04, 23 September 2005 (UTC)
That's cool, because I'm willing to do anything as long as the articles aren't negatively affected, and my only request would be that he stop following me around deleting and reverting my contributions. --Zephram Stark 23:40, 23 September 2005 (UTC)

Agreement to Ignore Personal Comments

From this point on, I'm going to ignore anyone making snide comments or doing anything but improving the article. Most of the people contributing to this discussion over the past six months want the introduction to be definitive. If we don't let the others sidetrack us, we can get the job done.

If you are willing to post here for the sole purpose of improving the article, while ignoring anyone making personal attacks, please sign below.

I agree --Zephram Stark 01:16, 22 September 2005 (UTC)

I agree wholeheartedly! I've been watching this page for some time now, and it seems people have a problem when it comes to someone disagreeing with them if a power struggle is involved. --EKBK 14:21, 22 September 2005 (UTC)

I agree wholeheartedly! In fact, I've been implementing this myself for some time now, as you can see, by ignoring you as much as possible. – Smyth\talk 17:48, 22 September 2005 (UTC)

I agree as well. I've been following Smyth's policy. Jayjg (talk) 18:11, 22 September 2005 (UTC)

I agree - (Easy to do coming in late...) - Tεxτurε 21:39, 22 September 2005 (UTC)

Six Proposals

Anyone who wants to contribute to discussion in this section, please sign above that you will make a good faith effort to promote consensus. (If you think consensus means a vote or ignoring anyone's feelings on the subject, please look it up.)

Professor Stevens Proposal

How does everyone feel about the Professor Stevens Proposal?

  • I feel that Professor Stevens may be starting at a level more basic than what is needed. I'm sure it's true that we can all agree "Terrorism is a philosophy" without really defining what that philosophy involves or how true it is. That's like saying terrorism a word, without defining the meaning of the word. In a classroom setting, it may be a good place to start, but I also think that, during the course of discussion, other agreed attributes of the philosophy can be achieved. I would like to see if there is any other "common ground" before we post any proposal to the article page. --Zephram Stark 18:18, 22 September 2005 (UTC)
  • I feel that pure original research from suspected sockpuppets should be ignored, particularly as the current article is in reasonably good shape. Jayjg (talk) 18:23, 22 September 2005 (UTC)
  • I feel that if there is room for improvement, improvement is always welcome in this forum.--EKBK 18:58, 22 September 2005 (UTC)
  • I did not like this proposal because I feel that the philosophical aspect should not be the initial and defining face of the article. Terrorism to the world is not a philosophy. It is only a philosophy after you get past what it is in everyday life. - Tεxτurε 21:37, 22 September 2005 (UTC)
  • I think it's just flat-out wrong: terrorism is a method, not a philosophy. Does anyone doubt that if the various terrorist organizations of the world had stealth fighters, modern mobile armor, and guided missles, very few of them would ever bother with attacking civilians? As Clausewitz said of war, terrorism is politics by other means. Marsden 20:46, 23 September 2005 (UTC)
My country has stealth fighters, modern mobile armor and guided missiles, but we still attack civilians for the purpose of "persuading" other governments to "support American interests abroad." I think the article on Conventional warfare nails it: "The general purpose of conventional warfare is to destroy the opponent's military force, thereby negating his ability to engage in conventional warfare." Any other purpose amounts to terrorism. It's the idea that you can control people through fear. The types of weapons used to produce terror are irrelevant. --Zephram Stark 01:53, 24 September 2005 (UTC)
  • That doesn't logically follow. Saying that "any other purpose amounts to terrorism" is like saying that anyone who isn't white is black. Obviously, that isn't true. - Tεxτurε 14:22, 26 September 2005 (UTC)
  • The above logical argument isn't based one thing following another, but from the self-evident nature of warfare. There are only two ways engage an enemy: by physically reducing the enemies ability to fight (conventional warfare), or through the systematic use of terror. We can undefine "terrorism" and pretend that it doesn't mean the systematic use of terror any more, but whatever word we coin to take its place becomes the alternative to conventional warfare. Obviously we need a word to describe the philosophy of trying to control people through intense fear in order to talk about it. What word should we use? Should we coin a new one because President Bush has declared something that obviously isn't terrorism to be terrorism, or should we tell President Bush that the United States government doesn't get to redefine our words to support his propaganda wars? --Zephram Stark 15:08, 26 September 2005 (UTC)
    • This appears to be your interpretation (making it black and white) since I can see a whole list of engaging an enemy:
      • physically reducing the enemies ability to fight
      • use of terror
      • assassination (officials, not civilians)
      • blockade/embargo
      • economic and political sanctions
      • economic warfare
      • supporting insurgents (and, no, that isn't necessarily terrorists. Revolutionaries attacking only government sites are not considered terrorists. Those who do not take action to "induce terror".)
      • covert operations
      • (and since you mentioned it) propaganda warfare (such as "Voice of America" and "Tokyo Rose")
    • Some of these listed could be debated. The fact remains that there is more than just physically attacking the enemy through warfare and use of terror. Terrorism is not the only alternative to conventional warfare. How would you explain the cold war? - Tεxτurε 17:42, 26 September 2005 (UTC)
Whether or not those things are terrorism depends entirely on your definition of terrorism. If you define terrorism in terms of intent, like President Bush does, engaging the enemy can either be with the intent of destroying his capabilities, or with the intent of intimidation. All of those the items you listed above fall into one or both of those categories. Therefore, if intent to intimidate is part of your definition of terrorism, every way of engaging the enemy is either Conventional warfare, Political terrorism, or some combination of the two. --Zephram Stark 20:30, 26 September 2005 (UTC)

Hipocrite Proposal

How does everyone feel about the Hipocrite Proposal?

  • Not bad, but incomplete. I think it could be better.--EKBK 19:42, 22 September 2005 (UTC)
  • It is a very good start. The two times it references terrorism as necessarily being "unlawful" and a "crime" put a definite pro-existing-government spin on it. If that had been the definition of terrorism two hundred years ago, it couldn't have been used to describe the first noted act of terrorism: the Reign of Terror. --Zephram Stark 21:17, 22 September 2005 (UTC)
  • I like this best. See below where I think it should be added with JayJG's bullet list - Tεxτurε 21:37, 22 September 2005 (UTC)
  • Not horrible. Marsden 20:48, 23 September 2005 (UTC)
    • LOL. Does that mean you like this one best since "not horrible" is better than your opinion of the others? :) - Tεxτurε 21:16, 23 September 2005 (UTC)
      • Yes, that follows. Sometimes "not horrible" is as good as it gets. What might actually be better, however, would be to get rid of the hand-wringing at the beginning of the "current consensus" version, and instead to do as broad a poll as possible of which of the qualities of the list following the first paragraph people identify with terrorism. Or maybe even, more subtly, to describe a series of different events, and ask people if they qualify as terrorism. For myself, the resonnating qualities are political motivation, non-military targets, and intent to intimidate (as opposed to the Sherman-esque "normal" war aim of destroying the enemies ability -- not will -- to resist). The rest, I think, are just there out of various groups wanting to window themselves out of the fun, particularly states with organized militaries, although if I had to add one more quality, it would be, perpetrated by units or individuals not clearly designated as military -- not sure how an invisible stealth bomber or a uniformed sniper in a gilly suit would fit into that. Marsden 21:49, 23 September 2005 (UTC)
        • Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think two of your stipulations conflict. Isn't it possible that a unit or individual clearly designated as military could act entirely with the purpose of intimidation, as opposed to the purpose of conventional warfare? --Zephram Stark 13:39, 26 September 2005 (UTC)
        • I think your idea about starting the article with the descriptions of terrorism in which everyone agrees is excellent. Would you be so kind as to start a discussion section with your thoughts on that and the poll that you suggested? --Zephram Stark 13:39, 26 September 2005 (UTC)
  • I think Hipocrite's version is a good place to start from (here is a diff). In the interests of bringing the page back to life, will everyone agree to unprotect the page and make those changes? – Smyth\talk 18:40, 26 September 2005 (UTC)


Stark Proposal

How does everyone feel about the Stark Proposal?


X Proposal

How does everyone feel about the X Proposal?

  • I think "The word "terrorism" is controversial, with no universally agreed definition." is a silly and untrue statement, especially for an encyclopedic reference. We know from the standard dictionary definition that one does in fact exist. Perhaps it's a controversial TOPIC, but the fact a definition exists is quite clear to anyone able to access a dictionary. For that reason, the entire article is sort of soured for me when I read it. It's wishy-washy.--EKBK 19:42, 22 September 2005 (UTC)
    • Do I need to dig up that list I made some weeks back of sources agreeing with the position that there is not a universally agreed upon definition? It's hardly "silly", and it's obviously not "untrue" that there is not a universally agreed upon definition; pointing to one dictionary definition shows that that definition is universally agreed upon by one dictionary. --jpgordon∇∆∇∆ 20:45, 22 September 2005 (UTC)
  • The two minimum usability requirements of any encyclopedia article are: 1) it helps the reader use the term in a sentence; and 2) it helps the reader identify things that are examples of the term. This proposal utterly fails both of those minimum tests. --Zephram Stark 21:17, 22 September 2005 (UTC)
  • I prefer only the style and bullets from this added to Hipocrite's proposal. See below. - Tεxτurε 21:37, 22 September 2005 (UTC)
  • Even more indirect -- and worse -- than Stark's. Marsden 20:54, 23 September 2005 (UTC)

Merge Proposal

A few people have proposed deleting this article and using Political terrorism instead since almost all usage of the term is in reference to political intentions and because the general consensus is that the Political terrorism article is much better than this one. How do you feel about using the Political terrorism article as a foundation and adding the parts of this article that we want to keep?

Split Proposal

A few people have proposed creating two articles from this one: one for Terrorism, and another for Terrorist. How do you feel about defining the terms separately?

Additional Proposals

Can I have one from column A and one from Column B? Hipocrite + current version?

Unprotect and incorporate Hypocrite's proposal?
Retrieved from "https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Terrorism/Archive_10&oldid=24116405"