Talk:Thomas Jefferson

Protect

Does anybody thinks as i there should be a full lock on the article? --Mus640 (talk) 01:33, 22 November 2008 (UTC)

I disagree, this article is lacking. MissMeticulous (talk) 01:26, 8 January 2009 (UTC)

I disagree as well -- the article reminds me of a book my parents got me at a souvenir shop in Washington, D.C. about the Presidents of the U.S. ... it needs a more neutral, honest point of view. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Jrtayloriv (talk • contribs) 04:48, 19 January 2009 (UTC)

I disagree as well, but state that an "honest, neutral point of view" in Wikipedia typically means stripping it of all material that's worth anything and adding a bunch of poorly sourced material to present it as neutral. Not ALL things in the world are neutral, and in fact very few are. (71.215.201.143 (talk) 08:04, 10 February 2009 (UTC))

Jefferson's Children?

The names of Jefferson's legitimate children are clearly listed, perhaps his assumed illegitimate children should at least be mentioned by name in the section about them? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.194.196.246 (talk) 03:04, 26 November 2008 (UTC)

Jefferson's Children? II

It seemed that the author was more interested in denying or throwing doubt on the validity that Jefferson did father children with his slave -

This is the story of so many people of African descent from all over the Western world - it's a story which has been largely ignored - and left out. Usually put down to rape - or other molestations - ignore the fact that these were relationships - perhaps not of the kind we see today - in that one was slave and the other slave master - but more likely loving and respectful - if six children were born out of it - a most obvious sign that a relationship was indeed taking place.

Given that these things are not politically correct to talk about - on either side - the reality that these relationships did take place as is in evidence - by the variety of skin colors within Black communities (and even within individual families) - versus the more homogeneous skin color found from region to region in Africa. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Egyptoo (talk • contribs) 22:58, 7 February 2009 (UTC)

Yes, I agree that there was a relationship of more depth than people sometimes act as if there were, and others like it. Before the Civil War, the 200 students at Wilberforce University in Ohio were mostly mixed-race children of wealthy planters, who sent them there for education so they could get ahead in life. In the Deep South, such fathers often passed on social capital to their children of loveing relationships through education, skills training and sometimes property settlements. Robert Purvis and his brother, who became abolitionists in Philadelphia, went to school in the North, were children of a British man and a free woman of color, and they inherited all their father's money - he ensured that.--Parkwells (talk) 00:48, 8 February 2009 (UTC)

Quote

"If the American people ever allow private banks to control the issue of their money, first by inflation and then by deflation, the banks and corporations that will grow up around them (around the banks), will deprive the people of their property until their children will wake up homeless on the continent their fathers conquered." - Thomas Jefferson

--Ivail (talk) 00:01, 28 November 2008 (UTC)

the bank quote is a modern forgery. Jefferson never said it, so we can't use it. (the word "deflation" for example was coined after he died)Rjensen (talk) 02:57, 28 November 2008 (UTC)

It appears this letter is legit, however the above quote is not.

"I sincerely believe … that banking establishments are more dangerous than standing armies, and that the principle of spending money to be paid by posterity, under the name of funding, is but swindling futurity on a large scale."

ATTRIBUTION: Thomas Jefferson (1743–1826), U.S. president. Letter, May 28, 1816, to political philosopher and senator John Taylor, whose book An Inquiry into the Principles and Policy of the Government of the United States (1814) had argued against the harmful effects of finance capitalism. --172.129.166.2 (talk) 11:08, 22 January 2009 (UTC)

separate article(s)

I would suggest making the religious views, Jefferson slavery, and/or political positions(or philosophy) of Jefferson into seperate articles to alleviate space.--Levineps (talk) 16:33, 29 November 2008 (UTC)

spelling of Frank Shuffelton

The last name of Frank Shuffelton (editor of the Penguin edition of Notes on the State of Virginia, in the bibliography) is misspelled. It should be Shuffelton, not Shuffleton. I know. I'm his daughter, and it's my name too! I'd appreciate it if someone would fix that. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 140.146.120.175 (talk • contribs) 19:16, 2 December 2008

Done. Thanks for pointing that out. - auburnpilot talk 19:24, 2 December 2008 (UTC)

Worst Presidents?

"Jefferson has been consistently ranked by scholars as one of the worst U.S. Presidents." and yet if you go to the link to the page of the ranking Jefferson is consistently in the top ten and never in the bottom ten. Why is this obviously false statement here? If it is going to be here, how about supporting references? The only link on this page concerning this shows contrary information.

it was vandalism and I fixed it. Rjensen (talk) 19:39, 19 December 2008 (UTC)

Religious Beliefs

Thomas Jefferson, third president and author of the Declaration of Independence, said:"I trust that there is not a young man now living in the United States who will not die a Unitarian." He referred to the Revelation of St. John as "the ravings of a maniac" and wrote: The Christian priesthood, finding the doctrines of Christ levelled to every understanding and too plain to need explanation, saw, in the mysticisms of Plato, materials with which they might build up an artificial system which might, from its indistinctness, admit everlasting controversy, give employment for their order, and introduce it to profit, power, and pre-eminence. The doctrines which flowed from the lips of Jesus himself are within the comprehension of a child; but thousands of volumes have not yet explained the Platonisms engrafted on them: and for this obvious reason that nonsense can never be explained."

From: Thomas Jefferson, an Intimate History by Fawn M. Brodie, p. 453 (1974, W.W) Norton and Co. Inc. New York, NY) Quoting a letter by TJ to Alexander Smyth Jan 17, 1825, and Thomas Jefferson, Passionate Pilgrim by Alf Mapp Jr., pp. 246 (1991, Madison Books, Lanham, MD) quoting letter by TJ to John Adams, July 5, 1814. --Yancy Fry (talk) 00:40, 5 January 2009 (UTC) not only was he the worst president he didn't deserve to be president as governor of virginia virginia got raided twice as secretary of state hamilton overshadowed him as vice president he did crap and he didn't even want to become pres —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.155.128.186 (talk) 17:28, 20 January 2009 (UTC)

Support of James Callender and scandal involving Betsey Walker

Two things missing here, both involving stories published by James Callender, other than the Sally Hemmings controversy. First, previous to that report, but after Jefferson's election to president, Callender published that Jefferson had supported him during his prior publications against Alexander Hamilton and George Washington. This included some letters. Second, report after the Sally Hemmings controversy, was the publication of Jefferson's attempts to commit adulter with Betsey Walker. Jefferson actually admitted to some truth as to this last, at least to some extent. IMHO (talk) 03:46, 7 January 2009 (UTC)

Embargo Act?

Where was the infamous embargo act in this article? It's pretty important, considering that Jefferson's views on the Presidency were soured by the criticism from the "Ograbme" MissMeticulous (talk) 01:23, 8 January 2009 (UTC)

Native American genocide?

I believe that Jefferson's deep involvement of the genocide of Native Americans should be mentioned in the first paragraph of the article, as a "significant event" which took place during his presidency. He directly ordered the slaughter of tens of thousands of people, had a fervent hatred for "red people", and if this article was about anyone other than a "national icon" I'm sure that such a large scale mass murder would be mentioned in their article ... so it's only fair that we be honest about Thomas Jefferson here, and put the bad stuff in along with all the nationalistic hogwash ...

Sure he wrote a few things about how much he admired them -- like saying that they "died with more deliberation" than any other people he had encountered. And to his credit he did try to give them a chance to abandon their way of life and live like the European invaders. He only ordered his military commanders to kill them and force them west of the Mississipi river if they didn't start wearing suits and working like good white men. So I guess you could say it was the Natives' fault since they didn't do what Thomas Jefferson told them to. He tried, and they just didn't listen ... poor savages.

Anyhow, Jefferson was definitely more compassionate and fair than, say, Andrew Jackson ... but he was still a cold blooded murderer ... I mean, Ted Bundy only killed a few dozen innocent people and the whole article about him talks about him being a killer. How come Jefferson, who killed thousands of people doesn't even have a sentence talking about it?

EDIT: So somebody wants sources.... a great starting point is Drinnon's "Facing West" (ISBN: 978-0806129280), Miller's "Native America, Discovered and Conquered" (ISBN: 978-0803215986), or just about any book on the history of the American "Indian Removal" campaigns for that matter.

Also the google query "Thomas Jefferson native american policy" will turn up thousands of results with extensive bibliographical resources. This is a well-known historical fact and it's silly to try to avoid discussing my questions above by claiming that they are "unsourced" ...

Cloaked in his rheotoric about how much he "commiserated" with their plight, is a policy of forcing them to choosing between assimilation or extermination.

"The Indians can be kept in order only by commerce or war. The former is the cheapest. Unless we can induce individuals to employ their capital in that trade, it will require an enormous sum of capital from the public treasury, and it will be badly managed. A drawback for four or five years is the cheapest way of getting that business off our hands." --Thomas Jefferson to Albert Gallatin, 1808.

"If they wish to remain on the land which covers the bones of their fathers, [we adjure them] to keep the peace with a people who ask their friendship without needing it, who wish to avoid war without fearing it. In war, they will kill some of us; we shall destroy all of them." --Thomas Jefferson to Henry Dearborn, 1807.

"We must make ever memorable examples of the tribe or tribes which shall have taken up the hatchet." --Thomas Jefferson to Henry Dearborn, 1807.

"In truth, the ultimate point of rest and happiness for [the Indians] is to let our settlements and theirs meet and blend together, to intermix and become one people, incorporating themselves with us as citizens of the U.S. This is what the natural progress of things will of course bring on, and it will be better to promote than retard it. Surely it will be better for them to be identified with us and preserved in the occupation of their lands, than be exposed to the many casualties which may endanger them while a separate people." --Thomas Jefferson to Benjamin Hawkins, 1803.

"[To] incorporate with us as citizens of the United States... is certainly the termination of their history most happy for themselves; but in the whole course of this it is essential to cultivate their love. As to their fear, we presume that our strength and their weakness is now so visible that they must see we have only to shut our hand to crush them, and that all our liberalities to them proceed from motives of pure humanity only." --Thomas Jefferson William Henry Harrison, 1803. (*)

"The interested and unprincipled policy of England [in the War of 1812] has defeated all our labors for the salvation of these unfortunate people. They have seduced the greater part of the tribes within our neighborhood, to take up the hatchet against us, and the cruel massacres they have committed on the women and children of our frontiers taken by surprise, will oblige us now to pursue them to extermination, or drive them to new seats beyond our reach." --Thomas Jefferson to Alexander von Humboldt, 1813.

(NOTE: These people who "took up the hatchet" were doing so, by the way, in retaliation for having their homes razed, being pushed hundreds of miles from their lands to make room for settlers, and being raped enslaved and murdered ...)

"We have cut off all possibility of intercourse and of mutual aid, and may pursue at our leisure whatever plan we find necessary to secure ourselves against the future effects of their savage and ruthless warfare. The confirmed brutalization, if not the extermination of this race in our America, is therefore to form an additional chapter in the English history of the same colored man in Asia, and of the brethren of their own color in Ireland, and wherever else Anglo-mercantile cupidity can find a two-penny interest in deluging the earth with human blood." --Thomas Jefferson to Alexander von Humboldt, 1813.

(Quotes are from "Writings of Thomas Jefferson")

How's that for sources? Need more? --- he wrote thousands of "caring" "respectful" comments such as those ...

Let's be realistic here. The man envisioned and implemented a systematic genocide program and was so PROUD of it that he wrote about it hundreds of times in his journals and letters ...kind of like how the Nazis were proud of exterminating Jews and wrote about it openly and proudly ... —Preceding unsigned comment added by Jrtayloriv (talk • contribs) 04:37, 19 January 2009 (UTC)

Most of these questions completely contradict what you claim. One wonders whether you have actually read his words at all. Paul B (talk) 22:47, 20 January 2009 (UTC)

Looks like original research to me. Chronodm (talk) 10:03, 21 January 2009 (UTC)

It is one thing to put up a magnificent statue. It is quite another to keep the pigeons off it.
The way to get past our past and to avoid eternal war is to admit that we have the opportunity to do better. Twang (talk) 18:04, 31 January 2009 (UTC)

Did Thomas Jefferson shoot a man on the Whote House lawn for treason?

In the motion picture "Swordfish", John Travolta says:

"Thomas Jefferson shot a man on the White House lawn for treason".

Is this true, and if so, who did he shoot?

Maybe this article should reference to this anecdote. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 62.218.221.187 (talk) 10:14, 21 January 2009 (UTC)

It's made up. Paul B (talk) 12:15, 21 January 2009 (UTC)

Section "Life as a Lawyer"

This section appears to have become jumbled. The first paragraph has nothing to do with Jefferson's life as a lawyer and the second paragraph seems to jump into the middle of his "Life as a lawyer' without introduction. SnPanAle (talk) 03:44, 23 January 2009 (UTC)

Thanks for pointing that out. I changed the sub-head to "After college" unless anyone has a better idea. Station1 (talk) 04:52, 23 January 2009 (UTC)

The biographical date list Jefferson as living until 1826 in Wikipedia. This is apparently an error.

However, the test on his life, and the life of Aaron Burr, indicates he died in 1804 in a duel with Burr. Clearly this is an error that needs to be fixed. This information is conflicting. 76.233.65.124 (talk) 09:07, 12 February 2009 (UTC)

Typo: "Jefferson was fon of the violin"

Missing "d". Should be: "Jefferson was fond of the violin"