Wikipedia talk:External links

ELNO #2 points to non-existent RS section

We seem to have a problem with the pointer to WP:RS in WP:ELNO #2. RS no longer has a section defining the relevant terms. Wikipedia:Accuracy dispute is the closest I've come, and it's not very close. Does anyone have any good ideas about fixing this? WhatamIdoing (talk) 18:21, 19 May 2009 (UTC)

Good observation. My suggestion would be to remove (what is currently) #2 from the list and replace it with a subsection below explaining how such links are handled. It seems to me that the actual accepted practice here is a bit too complicated to describe in one or two sentences. PSWG1920 (talk) 19:06, 19 May 2009 (UTC)

We can explain ourselves without linking to another page, so that is all that needs to be done. The text can be pulled from somewhere else, or made up here. 2005 (talk) 23:44, 19 May 2009 (UTC)

In regards to this revert, it seems to me that the actual accepted practice here is less than plain, per the examples in the above thread. I attempted to nuance the text in the new subsection to reflect that. At the same time I got rid of the wording "factually inaccurate material" and "unverifiable research", which link to non-existent explanations. PSWG1920 (talk) 01:13, 20 May 2009 (UTC)

They don't need to link to anything. You really should articulate what you are advocating. The existing text is quite clear. Do you not like something about it? if so, what? And then, why? What do you think is a better concept? Once again, forget the examples as they are completely irrelevant. The guideline should say what the guideline should say, regardless of how some random articles are structured. 2005 (talk) 03:14, 20 May 2009 (UTC)

Again, my issue is that guidelines are meant to be descriptive of accepted practice and not prescriptive of such. Therefore examples are relevant, that is, if we can point them out and yet they are allowed to remain despite getting the attention. In my last edit I tried to more accurately describe what seems to be the accepted practice, which is less than clear-cut but definitely not reflected in the current wording. PSWG1920 (talk) 03:55, 20 May 2009 (UTC)

And the guideline does represent accepted practice. Once again, pointing out a few exceptions is totally irrelevant. This is a guideline for general practices. If some dozens of articles go in a different way because of consensus for that article, fine. 2005 (talk) 10:49, 20 May 2009 (UTC)

Let's try a smaller question: Does this guideline need to define what "factually inaccurate" and "unverifiable research" mean? Or is the plain old dictionary definition good enough? WhatamIdoing (talk) 04:13, 20 May 2009 (UTC)

I really dislike "factually inaccurate", as that is subject to a lot of interpretation, as is "unverifiable" to some degree. PSWG1920 (talk) 04:21, 20 May 2009 (UTC)

No we don't need to define those terms, any more than we need to define every/any term in the guideline. The guideline is not utterly rigid. Editors of different articles will always interpret the fine line of guidelines differently. "Factually inaccurate" is about as clear as it can be, and all but a miniscule amount of articles follow that lead, so it's fine with just the one sentence. It really is approaching CREEP to go much beyond that. 2005 (talk) 10:49, 20 May 2009 (UTC)

I've removed the link to the (non-existent) "definitions". If we hear of disputes about this, we can address them at that time. WhatamIdoing (talk) 23:41, 23 May 2009 (UTC)

You Tube

The guide indicates that we dont have a specific ban on links to YouTube but doesnt this contradict with links to be avoided #8 in that the user is required to use (and download) external applications (such as Flash or Java) to view. MilborneOne (talk) 22:27, 23 May 2009 (UTC)

That is a bit of a contradiction. I do not see Flash as an 'external' application, as it is usually installed as a plugin/ActiveX control in the browser, which allows the content to be shown inline. — Edokter • Talk • 22:52, 23 May 2009 (UTC)

You can ignore that, see Wikipedia_talk:External_links/Archive_24#.22Emerging_markets.22_penetration_of_Flash_players. But youtube links are rarely appropriate anyway.--Otterathome (talk) 22:55, 23 May 2009 (UTC)

ELNO #8 is specifically concerned with direct links (to www.com/something.f4v instead of www.com/something.html) because that could be incredibly confusing to a user and leave them with absolutely nothing (whereas a page with an embedded video might contain, e.g., a bit of descriptive text that is readable without the special software), although you're right that in most cases the "direct" and "indirect" links are equally useless to the person without the software, and I think the majority of Wikipedia editors interpret that item as broadly as you have.

More importantly, it's ELNO, not ELNEVER. If the editors of an article have good reasons to set aside an ELNO issue, then they can agree to do so. For rich media links, they will probably want to consider all the usual reasons (copyvio? any good content? unique resource? WP:NOT#LINKS?), plus total file size (not everyone has broadband access), accessibility to readers worldwide, and the likelihood that the specific rich media software is installed/functioning for a wide majority of readers. And, yes, large file sizes (even if streamed) and the required software should be noted. There's no good reason not to, and it's friendly to our readers. WhatamIdoing (talk) 23:39, 23 May 2009 (UTC)

We do not have a specific ban on YouTube, but based upon the standards required for ELs, YouTube links will almost never be valid ones. The fact that this continues to confuse people means the section needed clarification again, which I have attemtped to do. DreamGuy (talk) 23:52, 23 May 2009 (UTC)

I agree with DreamGuy's wording on the project page. And at the same time I have been adding external links to YouTube videos where the video appears to be public domain or uploaded by the copyright owner. I also add "(needs Flash)", even though ELNO #8 does not apply to html pages. For examples see my edits that add old Edison (who died 1931) film clips: [1], [2], and this added several to 1898. I wonder if similar "good" (I hope) examples might be shown on the project page to guide users? An "External link casebook" like the Commons:Image casebook maybe? 84user (talk) 06:22, 24 May 2009 (UTC)

After a recent discussion with a user contributing YouTube link to their piano performance on a composer page, I had difficulty deciding how to apply the guidance. Good examples would be useful, particularly for such amateur video as though the contributor may say "that's me!" I don't think YouTube has any simple way of officially showing the copyright status. I certainly had difficulty evaluating "for inclusion with due care" as this seems to rely on judgement rather than simply checking a copyright declaration (as you might do with video on Flickr).—Teahot (talk) 07:36, 24 May 2009 (UTC)

Looks like the issue is still confusing, my original point was that I cant see anything in my browser without loading an extra bit of software, hence my query about avoided #8. We also have users adding random YouTube links which dont allways add value to the article - although I cant tell as I cant see them! Perhaps some clarification is required. MilborneOne (talk) 08:09, 24 May 2009 (UTC)

MilborneOne, are these direct links to the video (you will get an entirely blank screen or an error message about not having the software), or do they go to the YouTube page, where the video part of the page is non-functional, but you can (for example) read the title, the name of the person submitting it, and so forth? WhatamIdoing (talk) 19:17, 25 May 2009 (UTC)

No the links I was looking at are on Tengah Air Base go to the description page where I get Hello, you either have JavaScript turned off or an old version of Adobe's Flash Player. Get the latest Flash player. I have turned on Javascript for YouTube and downloaded a flash player so I can now see the videos. Point being I couldnt see it without some positive action on my behalf. Not sure most of the YouTube links I have looked at add any real value to the articles assuming that they are not copyrighted. MilborneOne (talk) 19:28, 25 May 2009 (UTC)

Okay: These are not "direct links". ELNO #8, if you look at it, is specifically about the importance of avoiding "direct links", not "links to regular webpages that have video on them". Do you understand why ELNO #8 does not apply to these specific links (whose value, of course, may be entirely suspect for other reasons)? WhatamIdoing (talk) 21:07, 25 May 2009 (UTC)

Thanks - OK I understand the difference but you still need to do something to see the video, the fact it is not a direct link would not be understood by most users. If you link to the holding page and cant see the video it is probably a worthless link as they are not really regular webpages. I would still suggest that the guidelines are looked at again to make it clearer to editors what is allowed although it may be simpler to remove the use of links to YouTube pages or videos mainly as the copyright issues are a minefield. MilborneOne (talk) 22:33, 25 May 2009 (UTC)

You can certainly discuss them with the other editors at the page. Having looked at a bit of each link, I don't think that we need to worry about copyright, since they are uploaded by a user whose name matches the news service that appears in the videos. However, they don't see to actually be about the air force base itself, and so they probably fail the most basic "links need to be on-topic" requirements. I'd start there with a bold discussion. WhatamIdoing (talk) 01:39, 26 May 2009 (UTC)

Link management and fair play

My two cents about the external links. Something clear have to be done. Some members delete, censor or vandalize (Call it the name you want, depending on your point of view.) the latest external links additions based on this external link policy. That's ok, but it is played fair. If you want by to play by the book, be honest and clean up the whole array in the lists you edit, not just the latest link.

In the trucks and bus articles, BusExplorer.com, HanksTruckPictures.com, Flickr groups and stuff like that are not appropriate and have to be removed as well or undo your deletions. Keep just the corporate links and it would really look as an advertissement edited by the company itself. The credibilty is not only in the rules, but the way they used. --Villager57 (talk) 02:27, 26 May 2009 (UTC)

Wikipedia has two and a half million articles. The dozen or so editors that regularly watch this page can't, and don't, watch links in all of them. I recommend that you "be the change that you want to see" on this issue. You're every bit as empowered to do this as anyone else. As for the editors that remove (your?) links without reviewing the old ones: they may be thinking that it's bad, but at least they're keeping it from getting any worse. I'd encourage them to do more, rather than just complaining about them here. WhatamIdoing (talk) 03:27, 26 May 2009 (UTC)

Is the external links symbol supposed to be on internal links?

Is the external links symbol supposed to be on internal links? On User talk:Emmette Hernandez Coleman#Whales I say it is not, Jack Merridew says in certain cases it is.--Emmette Hernandez Coleman (talk) 19:51, 26 May 2009 (UTC)

This edit explains what the question is about. (Examples are helpful, when you are asking for advice about specific edits. :)

I agree with Jack, that it is unnecessary. It could even be considered confusing, as editors are used to edit-diff links appearing styled as external links. Changing them on a case-by-case basis is a bad idea. Either get the software changed, so that all edit-diffs are styled as internal links, or leave them alone. My 2c. -- Quiddity (talk) 20:33, 26 May 2009 (UTC)

I don't suppose it's doing any harm if editors want to use <span class="plainlinks">[link]</span> markup to suppress the external link arrow on such links in their own comments. In addition to the possible confusion noted above, the main problems I see are that they make them look like interwikimedia links and they add excess code for no particular usability gain. Per WP:TPO, it is certainly inappropriate to edit another user's signed comments to add this code, as you're enforcing a personal stylistic preference not fixing a formatting error. --Muchness (talk)

About my editing other people's comments to remove the external link symbol, in retrospect (this word is probably grossly misspelled, please correct its spelling then remove this notice), I should not have done it, and I apologise. It was in good faith, but stupid.--Emmette Hernandez Coleman (talk) 22:20, 26 May 2009 (UTC)

The main problem with not doing so is that it makes internal links look like external links.--Emmette Hernandez Coleman (talk) 21:59, 26 May 2009 (UTC)

It's not an external link symbol. It's a symbol indicating a complete URL, and it's doing its job just fine. pablo_hablo. 22:10, 26 May 2009 (UTC)

That is dabateabule ,and I am pretty sure, that is disputed.--Emmette Hernandez Coleman (talk) 22:50, 26 May 2009 (UTC)

What is the point of "a symbol indicating a complete URL"?--Emmette Hernandez Coleman (talk) 23:00, 26 May 2009 (UTC)

It tells the reader "if you click here, there's a chance that you'll end up at some completely unrelated website."

This is not the right page to discuss the format of links on user talk pages. I don't know what page would be the right one, but I am convinced that this is not it. WhatamIdoing (talk) 00:08, 27 May 2009 (UTC)

I think you have just made my point for me, and worded it better then I could. If that is the only purpose, then only external links should have the symbol.--Emmette Hernandez Coleman (talk) 00:31, 27 May 2009 (UTC)

You forget to sign you're post, would you please do so by adding ~~~~ after you're above post.--Emmette Hernandez Coleman (talk) 00:24, 27 May 2009 (UTC)

Until, we can find the correct page this one will have to do--Emmette Hernandez Coleman (talk) 00:24, 27 May 2009 (UTC)

I did not forget to sign my message; you replied in the middle of it. WhatamIdoing (talk) 01:28, 27 May 2009 (UTC)

Sorry, on the edit page it looked like 2 posts.--Emmette Hernandez Coleman (talk) 13:15, 27 May 2009 (UTC)

It looked like two paragraphs. It is neither necessary nor appropriate to place a sig at the end of every single paragraph in a multi-paragraph message. WhatamIdoing (talk) 17:59, 27 May 2009 (UTC)

and cutting-in like that is disruptive and just plain rude. cheers, Jack Merridew 03:47, 28 May 2009 (UTC)

Regardless of if internal links using a full URL should have the symbol or not is, to me, is a secondary issue. The true question that I'm seeing is if it's appropriate to use <span class="plainlinks">[link]</span> to hide the symbol or not. The answer is usually not - and certainly not if it involves editing a talk post made by a different user, or editing a userpage of a different user. The only appropriate time that I see for using it are either on your own user/talk page, or in some header links (such as "click here to create a new section", etc) - but even then, still not on someone else's user space.

This type of thing should not be forced via stylistic tools. If the community should decide that internal full-URL links should be formatted the same as internal links, then that should be submitted as a proposal at the village pump, where if agreed the developers can work on making a change to the mediawiki software to make it happen throughout the wiki.

Oh, and incidentally ... regardless of if the "plainlinks" tag is being used or not, the link is still currently recognized as a full URL by the Mediawiki software - the simplest way to demonstrate this is to have you place the following code in your monobook.css page: #bodyContent a.external { color: #005500 }

Once added, refresh your cache, then all links using a full URL will be in green (including those links using the "plainlinks" tag), while internal links remain blue (be sure to remove this code from your monobook.css page afterwards and refresh your cache again - unless you want to keep full URLs green). --- Barek (talk • contribs) - 03:57, 27 May 2009 (UTC)

The diff to an edit of mine, one of a bunch undoing EHC, used an edit summary of “not appropriate” and I was referring to his imposing his view of the link on the comment of another user. The icon in question, external.png (oh, the irony), is named “external” and this name and likely the original intent was for links to off-site. There are of course millions of on-site link that use full urls which are being styled with the icon. Personally, I could support the idea of tweaking the site css to distinguish between WMF domains and the unequivocally external. Part of that discussion would concern non-WMF wikis such as Wikia. The argument that icon is needed to distinguish between internal links and fully qualified urls is weak; they are already styled in different shades of blue; your skin may vary and anyone is free to use personal styling. The implementation of this disambiguation is fairly straightforward and only involves tweaks to the css; modern browsers only, please. No need to change MediaWiki itself.

The larger issue here is what User:Emmette Hernandez Coleman is up to. I noticed him a few days ago having an inappropriate interest in Jimbo’s userpage, followed by this plainlinks nonsense — which he may have picked-up from me, as I do use it in some of my posts. Looking over his talk page and past contribs, I see a long pattern of mildly disruptive editing, and the regular admonishment of those who raise concerns with him as being “too harsh”. So, Emmette seem to be seeking some attention here and folks might want to step back and review the bigger picture, including our chat on his talk page. Emmette, can you hear me now? Cheers, Jack Merridew 04:36, 27 May 2009 (UTC)

What I am up to is irreverent for the purposes of if the "external links symbol" is supposed to be on internal links. When debating, it it usually best to attack the argument, not the arguer.--Emmette Hernandez Coleman (talk) 17:28, 27 May 2009 (UTC)

think of it as a holistic approach. cheers, Jack Merridew 03:47, 28 May 2009 (UTC)

Resolved: That anyone who changes the order or numbering in ELNO should be whacked with a wet trout

I see that there have been a few interesting changes recently, since reverted. I want to express my alarm at the idea of messing with the order or number of WP:ELNO (or other similar sections) for any reason less dire than preventing the complete destruction of the earth. I think that sticking new items into the middle of that list is a very WP:TROUTy choice. Efforts to group related items must take second place to the thousands of times that editors have identified issues solely by number when removing or discussing links. WhatamIdoing (talk) 00:14, 27 May 2009 (UTC)

MySpace question

I know, and mostly agree with, the EL policy on MySpace links — but I'd note that an increasing number of musical groups now use only a MySpace profile as their main "official" webpage and don't maintain a separate website, with the result that if the MySpace page isn't an allowable EL then there's no longer any valid EL that can be provided for the topic at all. Accordingly, I'm wondering if the policy should be updated to reflect that a MySpace page may be an acceptable EL if it's the topic's primary "official" website. Bearcat (talk) 18:52, 27 May 2009 (UTC)

Isn't that already currently the policy? Or guideline or whatever? That hasn't changed recently, has it? DreamGuy (talk) 18:58, 27 May 2009 (UTC)

It may be accepted practice, but it's not reflected here in the written policy. Bearcat (talk) 19:03, 27 May 2009 (UTC)

Sure it is. Official sites are the first thing listed in WP:ELYES. MySpace is listed as normally avoided, but things normally avoided aren't avoided if there's some reason to include them. If MySpace is the main official site then we list it, per "Except for a link to an official page of the article's subject—and not prohibited by restrictions on linking—one should avoid:" at the top of WP:ELNO. DreamGuy (talk) 19:13, 27 May 2009 (UTC)

That's not specific or clear enough to suffice; it requires the average reader to infer an intention into the phrasing as written. Most readers of this policy don't have that depth of knowledge and will simply point to the fact that MySpace is listed as an ELNO without even considering whether it's the topic's primary "official" site or not. When the letter of a policy isn't clear enough on what's allowable and what isn't, in my experience, it creates unnecessary conflict that can be avoided by simply making the letter of the policy clearer and less prone to ambiguity. Bearcat (talk) 19:18, 27 May 2009 (UTC)

I don't really see a big problem, but if you have a suggestion on how to make it clearer, by all means feel free to suggest one. DreamGuy (talk) 19:27, 27 May 2009 (UTC)

Bearcat, you shouldn't be having this problem. It's not just at the top of WP:ELYES and in bold-faced type at the start of WP:ELNO, there's a footnote in the specific ELNO item (#10) that directly addresses this issue! If people can't be bothered to read an entire sentence, then I'm really not sure that the problem can be solved through re-writing this guideline. WhatamIdoing (talk) 21:49, 27 May 2009 (UTC)

The guideline is quite clear that official sites are not subject to ELNO. We say it in bold right at the start. 2005 (talk) 00:09, 28 May 2009 (UTC)

MySpace, WP:EL, XLinkBot, ArbCom: Need for consistent, detailed rules

1) Since I do a fair amount of external MySpace link removal, I decided to take a stab at putting all the salient factors together in one place. That includes MySpace links where I don't make a decision at all, lacking information, or if for any other reasons I feel "uncomfortable" about judging the situation. One purpose for this is that a few editors felt they were "getting the run around", when, for clarity, I cited only part of the factors. Here is my effort: [3]. I invited a couple editors to comment, got moderately positive feedback, and was about to ask for more, here.

2) However, a couple days ago, I discovered that XLinkBot is removing *all* MySpace links added by new users and IPs (once only). [4]. I have asked for clarification, because it seemed XLinkBot is working with a different set of rules than I compiled. Especially: "If you are a 'new' editor, different rules apply to you." (I believe the XLinkBot "position" is defensible from a pragmatic point-of-view, but I'm not going to second guess now, let Dirk Beetstra explain when he's back from vacation.)

3) Today however, an angry administrator came to my page asking why I was deleting MySpace pages. Apparently they hadn't seen the recently revised MySpace footnote...so that was all smoothed out. In the process I discovered that *I* had not seen the latest version of the footnote. So I thought: no problem, I'll just go back and update my "compiled guidelines" to reflect the change. Now I'm an unhappy camper, because before the addition of this phrase to the footnote...

"more than one official website should be listed only when the additional links provide unique content and are not prominently linked from other official websites"

...I was secure in defending the removal of a particular MySpace external link. Now I'm afraid to touch them at all, because just about anybody could claim that the "Official MySpace" site has unique content beyond that of the "Official Non-MySpace" site. (A different blog, concert schedules, or background music.) I'm assuming...after all, I may have to explain an edit I made in the past at any time...that what is meant in the footnote is "unique, encyclopedic content".

4) ThemFromSpace seems to be saying something of the kind by citing ArbCom, above: [5]. But that seems to place far more emphasis on getting material from MySpace links into the Wiki article. And none on whether someone is a "new user", for example. None on some situations that I consider in my "compiled guidelines", for example, when there's an official German and an official English page for a German rock group.

It isn't feasible to give the life history of WP:EL to every angry MySpace editor coming to my page! Ok, so there are only a few. But while doing anti-vandalism patrol, the more detailed, complete and resilient our policies and practices, the easier it is to answer an editor with an element of certainty. Regards all, Piano non troppo (talk) 22:25, 25 May 2009 (UTC)

1. I like your FAQ about MySpace pages.
2. XLinkBot is just playing the odds, and we want it to keep doing that. If the page is watched, good links will be restored.
3. Updating the footnote to insist on "unique, encyclopedic content" is fine with me. At the time, my primary goal was simply to discourage idiotic muliplicity of links, like word-for-word duplications of content, and URLs whose sole content is "Click here to go to the other site." WhatamIdoing (talk) 21:56, 27 May 2009 (UTC)

Hmm. Not too long ago, I have been checking XLinkBot reverts of MySpace links (see User:XLinkBot/Analysis#Official MySpace pages in external links). I checked 30 reverts, and evaluated of all of them the individual merit of the edit against WP:ELYES and WP:ELNO. XLinkBot indeed simply reverts ALL myspace links (under its rules: new editors/IPs only, only revert once, don't revert undo's, 3RR compliant, etc. etc.).

Looking at those 30 I investigated, about 11 reverts needed a closer look, 19 were absolutely NOT correct (the incorrect ones having analysis like: "'Vince Rones, random black guy' on page of school", "some link to a former band-member, not to the page of the band itself. Inappropriate place anyway, there should be a wikilink to the member, if notable enough", "a town in northeastern Italy, this is not the myspace of the town, but of an inhabitant, should be a wikilink if the inhabitant is notable enough.", "addition of other band members myspaces, not of the band (is already there)"; warning: I have been quite strict in reading WP:ELNO).

Those 11 'correct' ones were at least of the format "(subject of page).myspace.com" or similar. But if we then look further, we see formations of linkfarms, dead links, redirecting myspaces, inofficial myspaces etc. etc.

I think that only one of the edits was reasonable in the end (i.e., there was already the official page, but not too many links, and the myspace may have added to the page); the other 29 could all be questioned significantly somehow in the end.

Now indeed, there are appropriate myspace pages out there, and they can add to the page. But, and then especially by unestablished users who are, generally, unfamiliar with our policies and guidelines seem to add quite some which are indeed questionable. XLinkBot tries to be very friendly on a first revert (the first revert is NOT a warning), and generally, the bot seems quite correct.

As a side-note, I have argued that the myspace revert rule by XLinkBot could maybe be replaced by a AbuseFilter warning, that may be a better way of doing it, as there are not very often cases where the link gets actually spammed. I hope this explains. --Dirk Beetstra ^{T C} 11:18, 15 June 2009 (UTC)

Links to Timesonline, Times Literary Supplement, etc

I've been advised to bring the discussion at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Spam#User:Michael Caines to your collective attention. Thank you! almost-instinct 17:45, 28 May 2009 (UTC)

External links in BLPs

I was wondering if this would be an improved wording:

"The decision to add external links is to provide further useful information and analysis related to the subject, or major areas within their lives, of an additional or in depth nature beyond that appropriate to Wikipedia. While not always expected to be completely neutral, they should collectively be balanced, their utility, credibility and collective balance should outweigh any imbalance in any one link, and they should not be used egregiously as a means to introduce advocative stances, BLP breaching content, or other material in breach of Wikipedia policies."

(For articles generally as opposed to BLPs, replace "related to the subject, or major areas within their lives" by "related to the topic".)

FT2 ^{(Talk | email)} 15:17, 29 May 2009 (UTC)

Advocacy sites and charities

Have advocacy sites and charities been discusssed in the archives somewhere? I just culled a bunch from PTSD, I think they're captured generically by 10, 11 and 13 of ELNO but is it worth including something more specifically? Add one charity and inevitably every other national, regional and municipal one from across the world will jump on. WLU (t) (c) Wikipedia's rules:^simple/_complex 18:21, 1 June 2009 (UTC)

We don't link to charity sites just for the sake of getting people to donate, and haven't for years. Now there may be a page of a site that has encyclopedic information that we could link to that happens to be on a charity site, but that should be on a case by case basis. DreamGuy (talk) 17:15, 2 June 2009 (UTC)

WP:MEDMOS#External_links might be relevant: "If the disease is very rare, then a manageable set of charitable organisations may be of encyclopaedic interest" (emphasis added). WhatamIdoing (talk) 21:27, 2 June 2009 (UTC)

WP:EL restrictions trump anything some minor subset of the Manual of Style might say. Very rare or not there's no reason for it. DreamGuy (talk) 23:32, 12 June 2009 (UTC)

There's nothing in this guideline that says that every single link to any charity is always inappropriate, but my point (as I expected WLU to recognize) is that PTSD is decidedly not "very rare".

But why don't you pick one page for the conversation about why you think detailed, informative pages published by a non-profit organization are inherently inferior to similar pages published by a for-profit organization, and we'll only have it once? WhatamIdoing (talk) 05:18, 15 June 2009 (UTC)

And why don't you try to avoid putting words into my mouth to try to win a straw man argument? I never said anything about for-profit organizations. The point here is that we link to information pages, not organizations that happen to just be about the topic. Sites that exist to have people donate money are not valid links. If a nonprofit has an informative page, then we link to that page, not the home page of the charity itself. I see two people here saying such links are inappropriate, so for you to insist otherwise and then also to force a subpage of a manual of style (!) page to try to set a policy on charity links while ignoring rules and consensus here is pretty silly. We are not here to promote causes, even ones most people can agree are good ones. There is no encyclopedic purpose to link to a charity, but of course we can link to pages with encyclopedic info. DreamGuy (talk) 20:56, 16 June 2009 (UTC)

Your edit changed a fairly specific list of inappropriate links to (direct quotation) "Links to charitable organisations", and you asserted (direct quotation) "A MOS subpage cannot contradict WP:EL standards". The list you edited already called for informative pages instead of front doors, already banned fundraising pages, and so forth. Your change, however, also banned informative pages if they were part of a non-profit organization's website.

Note: there are only three kinds of organizations in this universe: governments, non-profits, and for-profits. if you ban all links to non-profit organizations, that leaves only links to governmental and for-profit websites. This is highly undesirable.

You also appear to be unable to show me exactly where all "[l]inks to charitable organisations" are banned in this guideline, or any individual editor that thinks the sweeping ban you added to all links to all pages at a charitable organization's website is a good idea. WhatamIdoing (talk) 00:11, 17 June 2009 (UTC)

Easiest thing to do is avoid all of them and link to the DMOZ category; that helps avoid a growing link farm. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 00:27, 17 June 2009 (UTC)

True, but the best thing to do is usually to link to webpages that provide detailed, accurate information along the lines described in WP:ELYES, without first determining whether those pages are part of a charitable org's website. WhatamIdoing (talk) 05:59, 17 June 2009 (UTC)

External links to geographically-limited groups

I'd like other people's input on when it's appropriate to link to organizations related to a specific topic that only cover a small geographic area. I removed a link because it seemed of interest only to a very small community of people, with the "not a directory" explanation. An editor who had not previously edited that article reverted me without explanation, something he has a tendency to do (if it kees up I will file a wikihounding investigation). I'd like the input of people I know deal with EL issues more often and who will make a judgment based upon its merits instead of personality. DreamGuy (talk) 17:13, 2 June 2009 (UTC)

In this case, at a glance, I'd say that site's primary page is not a useful EL, but their subpage on the history of the movement (as it specifically relates to their region) might be useful somewhere. But it's already being used as a citation, so another link is not justified (unless the region is somehow a core component of the philosophy, which it doesn't appear to be). -- Quiddity (talk) 18:08, 2 June 2009 (UTC)

I would have removed the link as well, for exactly the same reason as DreamGuy, although I think that Quiddity's reasons are even better. WhatamIdoing (talk) 21:31, 2 June 2009 (UTC)

Anyone up for reverting the individual who reverted my removal of the link, then? DreamGuy (talk) 22:08, 2 June 2009 (UTC)

Pretty Litte Liars Source

I really want a link for this Pretty Little Liars site : www.prettylittleliarsss.webs.com ! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.21.30.191 (talk) 14:30, 3 June 2009 (UTC)

Should links be grouped according to Pro and Con?

This is how it is on the Oneness Pentecostal article. Is it normal to divide the external links into subsections? Ltwin (talk) 17:57, 4 June 2009 (UTC)

The only guidance seems to be at WP:LAYOUT, "Format: External links should be arranged in a bulleted list, with a short description of the link and no blank lines between items. By convention, if the article is about a company or organization, then its official website is the first link in the list." I'm not convinced it's a good idea, although other articles do it. WP:NPOV might be relevant but not necessarily in this article. Dougweller (talk) 14:58, 12 June 2009 (UTC)

My main question would be: why are there so many EL's that they need to be sectionalized? WP:YESPOV would suggest that good, high-quality representative links from each major viewpoint be included, but EL suggests they be minimized, so my suggestion would be to pare the links, include them in a unified EL section, and document each link's perspective in an NPOV manner. Jclemens (talk) 16:51, 12 June 2009 (UTC)

I second Jclemens question about having so many that you need to organize them.

Such links should be labeled per WP:EL#Avoid_undue_weight_on_particular_points_of_view: "Add comments to these links informing the reader of their point of view." Dividing links into "Pro" and "Con" groups may be an effort to comply with this directive.

Generally, I don't have a problem with such divisions/labels, so long as this doesn't produce contention about how a given link gets classified. WhatamIdoing (talk) 18:48, 12 June 2009 (UTC)

I think they should be clearly and accurately labeled so people know what they'd be going to see if they click the link. Explicitly dividing between pro and con is one way to do that, but it's not the only way to do so. It'd be better to clear describe each link on the line giving the link. DreamGuy (talk) 18:55, 12 June 2009 (UTC)

It's weird that the article only has pro and con links. Aren't there any unbiased resources? If it is only pro and con, having five pro and three con seems weird too. 2005 (talk) 21:10, 12 June 2009 (UTC)

"By convention, if the article is about a company or organization, then its official website is the first link in the list."

This text does not appear on this page, but it does appear on the Wikipedia:Layout page. If it belongs anywhere it belongs here. Should we integrate it? Agradman (talk) 20:34, 14 June 2009 (UTC)

Here is some more text that I found at Wikipedia:Layout#External_links that doesn't appear here. Again, if it appears anywhere it should appear here. Agradman (talk) 22:05, 14 June 2009 (UTC)

"Links to Wikimedia sister projects other than Wiktionary and Wikisource (e.g. Commons, Wikibooks, Wikinews, Wikiquote, Wikispecies and Wikiversity) should generally appear here. External links can be in the form "Main page at Wikibooks", {{wikibooks}}, or {{wikibooks-inline}}. See Category:Interwiki link templates to check whether an inline template exists."

I don't think it needs to be stated here; Wikipedia:External links has more to do with the content of external links, rather than the formatting of external links. EVula // talk // ☯ // 22:07, 14 June 2009 (UTC)

I ask partly because I've proposed making some clarifications and deletions to Wikipedia:Layout, and the things I'm mentioning here don't really belong there either. Agradman (talk) 22:28, 14 June 2009 (UTC)

I don't happen to favor adding any of this information here, but I think the decision relatively unimportant. However, whether or not it is repeated here, the location of WP:SISTER links must stay at WP:LAYOUT because it gives information about what to do with these links in articles that have no external links section. WhatamIdoing (talk) 05:47, 15 June 2009 (UTC)

Linkvio, ELNO question

A question has been raised at WP:CP about the inclusion of a specific link on Differintegral. Pending clarification of the issue, I have removed it. (See [6]) and opened a discussion at the talk page. Input on the issue would be appreciated, since currently there is dispute among several editors to the article as to whether the link is in violation of copyright. --Moonriddengirl ^(talk) 18:21, 16 June 2009 (UTC)

I responded there... you say there's a dispute among several editors: where? Just on the editing of the page, or is it discussed on any talk page anywhere? I'd like to see what on earth kind of argument would be made to try to justify it, as it seems to be very clear cut from what I see. DreamGuy (talk) 21:05, 16 June 2009 (UTC)

Thanks. The editors are the tagger and the restorer, who have gone back and forth in placing & removing. Sorry I didn't give very much information on it. I was kind of racing through the little backlog at CP. :) The CP listing said, "Strange case: one editor is insistently re-inserting a link to a scanned source hosted by an obscure Russian site." The original contributor said, "as I know links to Google Books are allowed where books are also scanned and also not in PD. This is the same case: domain belongs to a book search system poiskknig.ru, similar to google books" I tried to review the source myself, but couldn't. --Moonriddengirl ^(talk) 21:25, 16 June 2009 (UTC)

Enumerating list of sites under Iran election DDOS

Some folks have been trying to list the Iraqi government websites which are being DDOS'd by Mousavi supporters in the Iranian election protest article, as discussed by their original contributor here. So far I have been removing them for violating WP:NOTLINK, but other than that is there any other particular policy that covers whether or not we should be listing these sites? Thank you. --Aeon17x (talk) 15:29, 17 June 2009 (UTC)