Talk:Fascism

The article intro is fantastic now, Perhaps the "traits" section should be condensed down

Intro is very clear now and I don't see any objections to it. The traits section seems to be a little long and dragged out. I think it should be condensed down to core areas. Also, the info on the different types of fascisms like Nazism and Integralism in different continents should be condensed down to the bare bones that answer (1) Why is it associated with fascism, (2) is it an important example of fascism and why? and (3) what legacy did the ideology have on fascism. So for instance, Nazism was associated with fascism due to its endorsement of Italian Fascism and it's use of the core fascist themes, second: it is important because the arrival of Nazism to Europe altered the political balance of power in Europe; and three it is important to fascism because it brought racism to be a fundamental attribute to many fascist movements since. But indepth discussions of the ideologies should be left to the articles on those ideologies.--R-41 (talk) 23:49, 23 March 2010 (UTC)

I see several problems with the intro: it presents a fascist view of fascism, it is equivocal in calling them far right and the terms fascism, fasciwst or fascism are repeated about twenty times. The Four Deuces (talk) 00:36, 24 March 2010 (UTC)

Well the use of the term fascist can be reduced. The article needs to present the fascists' proposition of their ideology, not because it may be true, but to understand what fascism presents itself as. Criticism of this presentation should be in the article under a criticism section. But for us to automatically assume that fascists are lying about all their positions is bias, even if we have good reason to suspect so, as I imagine you like me and others oppose fascism. But to ignore their claims would be the same as an opponent of democracy editing the Democracy article to say that the claims by proponents of democracy are fraudulent - then the article would end up saying "Democracy is allegedly a system of popular rule by the people, but is commonly criticized for being mob rule, a tyranny of the majority democracies have caused the deaths of many people in wars". I think you can see the problem. As much as I don't agree with fascists, their claims should be represented on the article, just as the claims about democracy are on the democracy article. Criticisms for fascism should be put in a criticism section, there critiques of fascist claims can be made. That way the article is being fair.--R-41 (talk) 00:54, 24 March 2010 (UTC)

The new section added on fascism in the Middle East is very aggressive in tone and biased

First of all with this new section has many flaws. First, it is poorly written and utilizes sparse sources, even from TV shows to make claims, focusing entirely upon Arab fascism, while ignoring the fact that fascism existed amongst multiple nations. Second, it places the Middle East as a separate section, when it is part of Asia. Third, there is the notability issue of a number of the movements. Fourth, on the issue of Arab fascism it attempts to present it as a heterogeneous movement - I have looked into Arab fascist movements they were not heterogeneous - they were divided upon which state should be the head of a pan-Arab state, this was connected to the factional divides amongst Arabs.

As mentioned above, I think this section on fascism in the Middle East is very badly written. It is very true however that there were strong fascist groups in the Middle East, especially in Iraq, where anti-British tendencies had combined with both Iraqi and Pan-Arab nationalism that influenced members of the Iraqi government, including Iraq's education minister named Shawkat, who created the Al-Futuwa youth paramilitary movement in Iraq, that was based upon fascist lines. Claims that Ba'athism is based on fascism are possible, under Saddam Hussein it advocated a Greater Iraq to be the leading constituent republic of a pan-Arab state but unlike fascism, Ba'athists cooperated with communists and held no entrenched principles of anti-communism as fascism does. The Syrian Social Nationalist Party is widely believed to be a fascist party in Syria (though it denies it) which advocates a Greater Syria. At the same time, there were other non-Arab fascist movements in the Middle East, one was the Revisionist Maximalism, a Jewish fascist ideology associated with the fascist Brit HaBirionim political faction created by Abba Ahimeir that was briefly on the rise in Jewish nationalist politics until the rise of Hitler, after which Revisionist Maximalism and other Jewish fascist ideologies collapsed when fascism grew supportive of anti-Semitism. This faction was small, but it was believed to have been influenced by the nationalist politics of Zeev Jabotinsky, who formed the more popular nationalist Betar movement that some believe is fascist or para-fascist in nature.

I am gravely suspicious however that adding information on fascism in the Middle East, including the fact that fascism influenced both Jewish and Arab political movements could likely result in a fierce edit war between Jewish and Arab nationalist editors over this, just as Croat and Serb nationalist editors on Wikipedia have edit wars that try to show how each side collaborated with fascists.--R-41 (talk) 20:35, 30 April 2010 (UTC)

No need for a long discussion, that is up to the person who wants it in. I took it out. TFD (talk) 22:49, 30 April 2010 (UTC)

Well it's back again and it is still focused almost entirely on Arab fascist movements collectively without mentioning non-Arab fascist movements like Turkish, Jewish, and Iranian ones. Whoever keeps adding this is intent about it, I wish they would read the critique I made about it. It makes little distinction between the different Arab fascist movements, it just declares that Arab fascist movements existed in the Middle East. This is wood for a firestorm of edit warring if it remains so focused on Arab fascist movements.--R-41 (talk) 16:13, 2 May 2010 (UTC)

I deleted it again and requested that the editor discuss it here before restoring. TFD (talk) 16:33, 2 May 2010 (UTC)

And I had to delete it again. The few references I was able to check were dubious, and it appears to be written from a polemical stance. --Snowded ^TALK 19:56, 2 May 2010 (UTC)

"dubious"? and is it really fair now to omit so much from that historic era? is there an argument that they were not fascist/or fascistic influenced? why should THIS be excluded and categorized as "POV" Sallese (talk)

Please indent your comments. I am sure that something should be included here but it needs to be less polemical and better references. The paper "An unholy alliance" for example is just a paper downloaded from the web. Then we get a thesis. The Larsen book is a collection of essays, and I think you will need to provide fuller direct quotes (on the talk page not the article) to demonstrate that it supports the material. As stated above its focused on Arab political movements not the wider middle east. --Snowded ^TALK 20:28, 2 May 2010 (UTC)

The reason why I added the "unholy alliance" is because someone (R-41) above complained why it's all about "arabs" (though it doesn't really make much sense, Middle east IS mostly arab anyhow), which is why I added the "unholy-alliance" link, on top of this previous [1] one.

- I am adding this:

Since the beginning of the Second World War in September, 1939 it has become common to lump Fascism and Nazism together as agents of "world revolutions."

-An this on Turkey:

Mussolini's fascism impressed many in Turkey, there were many similarities between the Italian fascist regime and the Kemalists, including racist rhetoric and authoritarianism

As to al-Futuwwa being a Hitler Youth model and Shawkat's praising Hitler ( , there added more ref.) and inciting against the Jews there are many references.

As to the groups including green shirts, young Egypt, SSNP (with its: "Syria Uber Alles" and the swastika flag), etc. of course they have to be mentioned.

-And omitting the PDF file on Iran "unholy-alliance". Leaving this about Iran.

Reza Shah Pahlavi, interwar ruler of Iran, sometimes referred to as 'the Mussolini of Islam'. resident Germans worked actively for National Socialist propaganda, and by May 1940 there were about 4000 Nazi agents across the country.

What do you think so far? (maybe the Fred Holliday should be omitted?) Sallese (talk) 21:22, 2 May 2010 (UTC)

Adding a comment on how fascism has been seen since 1939 in a book published in 1941 is poor scholarship and should be taken out. Could you please stop inserting text without discussion because there has been no agreement with any editors about these additions. TFD (talk) 21:47, 2 May 2010 (UTC)

Agreed, I reverted it --Snowded ^TALK 22:06, 2 May 2010 (UTC)

I was just about to remove it after TFD's comment anyhow, What Larsen book are you referring to (that contains essays, etc.) dear Snowded? the middle east section does not include any of it, it's in the Asia area, by other editors - entirely. You can see-check it here User_talk:Sallese. Sallese (talk) 22:16, 2 May 2010 (UTC)

Correct, I meant to say Blamires not Larsen, moving back and fore between versions. Intent to remove noted - would you also indent comments? Thanks

I see, you mean this source mentioned twice, these two pages (342 [2] - 343 [3])? they don't appear essays. Sallese (talk) 23:56, 2 May 2010 (UTC)

Middle east section is unbiased and historically imperative

I don't see anything wrong with putting historic facts as it were. Facsism's champion - Mussolini's foot in Libya and Hitler's "friend" Mufti's control in the M.E. & over Arab movements, were too great to be ignored when talking about fascism.

True that Baathism was influenced by both: Socialism AND fascism, as those sources linked - say so.

Yes, we can add the Iranian fascists too, starting with the cooperation with the nazi regime, (which I will be adding) after all, the middle east is primarily Arab, no Arab should be "offended" it's not about Arabs as a whole, it's about Arab movements and leaders.

I don't believe that today in age, real fascism exist, but when it was in fashion, yes, Arab movements were IN, in fact, omitting this is exactly a POV. Maybe it should be included into Asia, we'll try this Sallese (talk) 17:40, 2 May 2010 (UTC)

During the Second World War there were fascist sympathizers and political parties everwhere in the world and there is no reason to give undue emphasis to the Middle East. The ME section is now larger than the one for Italy! Also, while there are obvious similarities between the Iraqi Ba'athist Party and fascism, the same is true of countless other pro-Western third world dictatorships. I notice too that you omit the Lebanese Phalange, the most successful ME true fascist party. TFD (talk) 18:24, 2 May 2010 (UTC)

Do you have more info on the phalangists?, I start off (current version) "There was an unholy alliance-nazi links with totalitarianism in Middle East including Iran", I can't understand why there was so much talk about Asia and not about the M.E. Mussolini's Libya, the pan-Arab movements, the Mufti parts, they're all so huge (especially as comparing (Hitler's pal) the Mufti's powerful leadership with the small Phalangists... Sallese (talk)

You can click on Phalange to read more about them. They are significant because they remained a major force after the Second World War and still exist. However I disagree on the significance of fascism in the Middle East, compared with Europe. If you want to include a lot of detail about fascism in the ME then you should create a new article. You might also wish to work on the article Nazism in the Middle East. TFD (talk) 19:53, 2 May 2010 (UTC)

Thanks, actually this section, originally was not started by me, but I have researched that era, so it does interest me. Sallese (talk)

What about the Jewish fascist ideology Revisionist Maximalism, a self-described fascist movement associated with Abba Ahimeir. Ahimeir also acknowleged that his ideology was based on the politics of Ze'ev Jabotinsky, a popular militant nationalist Revisionist Zionist who admired Benito Mussolini and Fascist Italy, sought alliance with Fascist Italy, and whose Betar youth wing of his Hatzohar movement utilized brownshirt paramilitary uniforms [4]? They weren't associated with Nazi fascism, but held close association with Italian Fascism. Militant Zionist (Jewish nationalist) politics was highly potent in the British Mandate of Palestine during the 1930s amid the Arab-Jewish conflict. Jabotinsky and Hatzohar were influential in the politics of the Middle East.--R-41 (talk) 00:41, 3 May 2010 (UTC)

I am not sure it's not a transparent POV, when objecting to (posting) the real Goliath fascist groups in the Arab world (the "elephant in the room," AKA: Hitler's Mufti, Futuwwa, Green shirts, Young Egypt, proto-fascist organizations in the Levant, Syrian-SSNP, Lybia-at-Mussolini, et al) in the 1930s... yet, highlighting a scrachted out thing, forcing doudtful "fascist" face on the very victim of the real fascism of that time... (I am not here to defend any Zionism, or any Zionist movement, but truth shouldn't be switched around either) it's more than just rewriting history, it might be a trend of twisting it all around. Why does everything have to be in "arab vs jew" light and attempts of supposedly "balancing" it out? why can't history just be told as it is-was? Sallese (talk)

In the article about Christianity it would make no sense to have a huge section about Christianity in the Middle East, South Korea or China that was larger than the section about Christianity in Europe or the Americas. The same applies here. TFD (talk) 02:34, 3 May 2010 (UTC)

"Why does everything have to be in "arab vs jew" light and attempts of supposedly "balancing" it out?" Why? Because Zionism proponents seem to be trying to hijack the article to further their agenda of portraying the conflict in the Palestinian mandate as another front in a global fascist vs. anti-fascist struggle, which is completely inaccurate from a historical standpoint.Ndriley97 (talk) 22:33, 4 May 2010 (UTC)

Judging from anti-Jewish rant in: [5],[6], [7]? aka by damning "zionists" you mean all Jews? Please leave your campaign out of this page I am not posting about zionism here, nor do I defend them. We are trying to avoid any Arab vs Zionists here, it's about the past history not about the M.E. conflict, thank you very much.

Sallese (talk) 23:08, 4 May 2010 (UTC)

Dear TFD, I didn't see the article about Christianity. Sallese (talk) 10:29, 3 May 2010 (UTC)

If we mention every Arab fascist group, there will be a dispute, it will be seen as discriminatory. Why? For instance there were many German and Japanese fascist movements, to list them all would take up a lot of space, and provide undo focus, thus it could result in an accusation of dispute. The Syrian Social Nationalist Party is one worth mentioning, it was and remains an exceptionally strong fascist political party in Syria. Futuwwa was a youth movement run by the Iraqi minister of education, was it part of a larger political party? - I do not know. The Ba'ath Party has more in common with Nasserism than fascism, Nasserism was authoritarian, nationalist, but not anti-communist (Nasser and al-Bakr of Iraq worked with communists and sought alliances with communist countries like the former Yugoslavia) and not seeking a third way between a command economy and a laissez-faire economy as fascists do - it favoured a command economy.--R-41 (talk) 04:07, 3 May 2010 (UTC)

Historical correctness, Goliath vs the small / speculative

The Elephant: - At least seven different Arab nationalist groups had developed... [8] - The whole Arab youth is enthused by Adolf Hitler, wrote Kamil Muruwwa, the young editor of the Beirut paper An-Nida', to the German Foreign Minister in Berlin. The year after Hitler came to power, Muruwwa translated Mein Kampf from English into Arabic and published it in daily installments in An-Nida'. [9]

This is about the past, not about current conflicts, so what's the argument of throwing in there a weak link to fascism by non-Arab zionist group? Besides the weak link, the salad between ahimeir and Jabotinski, how you tried to "connect" it and make it appear as somehow linked to Fascism, if they were not fascistic in it's far fetched, which is why originally I wasn't for posting the Phalangists, as they were not really fascistic in behaviour. What does this phrase mean "highly potent in the British Mandate of Palestine", threw it in there? it can be very deceiving, giving the wrong picture as if that group fought the British on some illusionary "fascist" motives and not on Zionist (return to their historic land/Zion) roots. Although, if to mention that obscure case, the Arab-Palestine zone is much larger and much more damning, see a peek here about the fascism and nazism in establishing Palestine party / movement. [10]. But (I do have the information on my talk page but not intend to post it) I purposely didn't want to touch that arena. only the Mufti part, as he was so major in connecting the Arab world to nazism and fascism.

Real fascist vs sensationalists' politics' terminology

I tried to avoid the term Islamo-fascism here, or the sensationalists throwing around the term "fascist" today in the M.E. conflict, including on Hezbollah with their Nazi salute, and others (even though some are genuinely trying to connect the roots of PLO to Nazism), or politically motivated exaggerations by opposite parties in the political arena. This is about the real thing. The historical fact is that the father of fascism in Europe, Mussolini was anti-Jewish and agreed with the Mufti al-Husayni that the Jews have no "right" in Palestine [11].

I don't think there's a dispute over futuwwa the Hitler youth model of it being part of the Iraqi' government, as Shawkat was the official head of the education minister. (pan-Arabist Futuwwa Youth was a model of the Hitler Youth [12], Officially modeled after the Hitler Youth [13]. The pan-Arab government also sponsored the Futuwwa Youth movement [14], [15][16], More: Arab boys in Baghdad were often sent to Germany to attend Hitler Youth events... join the Futuwwa, paramilitary programs based on the Hitler Youth groups [17]). It has also a historic significance due to their hand in the Farhud pogrom.

Consensus

I can agree that when mentioning Baathism also socialism has to be mentioned, that it was influenced also by fascism (as I corrected it on my talk page), which is true, as the sources mention both, that Aflaq took both: European fascism & socialism.

While at that, since you are on the subject, there's a lot of information out there about German "racial" ideology (Fichte) upon Michel Aflaq's colleague (Arsuzi) that influnced Michel.

IMHO, The Futuwwa (al-Muthanna's wing), Mussolini's Libya, SSNP were the most fascistic.

The purpose of me inserting Iran & Turkey the more minor faces of fascism at that time, was only per your request.

What, out of the larger picture can you agree to be included? Sallese (talk) 22:14, 3 May 2010 (UTC)

Again, the article is about fascism, not fascism in the Middle East. TFD (talk) 23:28, 3 May 2010 (UTC)

Dear The Four Deuces! Do you object to all those sections: Fascism#Europe, Fascism#Americas, Fascism#Asia, please explain the differences between: Europe/Asia/Americas and the Middle-East (or, why the M.E. is special to be excluded), if you want a trimmmer M.E. section it can be arranged, only highlighting a few major ones - those most resembling fascism. Sallese (talk) 01:32, 4 May 2010 (UTC)

Look, I am not trying to exclude the fact that there were Arab fascist movements, I have no objection to having the Syrian Social Nationalist Party included, it is a major one that has major political influence in Syria. You mention that there were several Arab nationalist movements with close links to fascism. In Germany, there were dozens that were either fascist or very close to fascism, with the strongest being the Nazi Party followed close behind by the German National People's Party that moved from being a monarchist party, to being close to fascism. "Mussolini's Libya" does not count as meaning that the population supported fascism - Fascist Italy had to wage a long and bloody war in Libya with the Senussis led by Omar Mukhtar fought for independence until they were brutally suppressed, so Libya under Fascist Italy is not an example of fascism being popular amongst Arabs. And why not include the Revisionist Maximalism of Brit HaBirionim, I mentioned it because it is a very unique example of fascism, fascism has been commonly associated with anti-Semitism, but it is an exception. It's leader Abba Ahimeir was a self-declared fascist, who declared in a book he wrote, aptly titled "From the notebook of a Fascist" in 1928. And what about fascism in Turkey and Iran? Turkey lost its empire in World War I, and nationalism was very strong in Turkey afterwards. Plus as to the issue of a section on the Middle East, the Middle East is part of Asia, and a section on Asia is currently there. But first in importance, I agree that the Syrian Social Nationalist Party should be put in.--R-41 (talk) 19:20, 4 May 2010 (UTC)

Well, so far we can agree on SSNP, Futuwwa, YoungEgypt (as that book describes them on being most resembling fascistic Italy) and not on facsist-Mussolini's Libya?

I think the line that The whole Arab youth is enthused by Adolf Hitle [18] is probably the most important of its shear size in the middle east.

The problem with that isolated case you mention is, that it's just that, a rare case (that still needs research), the abnormal can't be prioritized before the other dozen of pan-Arab fascist groups that are NOT included, besides, it defeats the purose of historical accuracy that fascism was anti-Jewish, which is why Marcus Garvey - I don't think has to be included, though he proclaimed himself a "fascist before the fascists Hitler/Mussolini." [19] - since European Fascism (the subject of that page) was different than that of Garvey, in its totalitarianism against all "others" that are "not in line" with the fascistic top, smashing everyone in their way. Hence, just because someone declared himself a "fascist" it's not always the case. And again, then, it was a very small group anyhow, not to mention it's relatively minor against the Palestinian-Arab part massive movement by the Mufti (quoted above). So, I didn't want to touch the Zionist-Palestine arena... I left it out.

POWER = IMPORTANCE! My point is that the biggest shakers in the middle east were: Mufti (due to massive Arab-Muslim support and the Nazi regime backing), Mussolini (in the Africa & Arab world), the fact of a goverment like Iraq having the Hitler-Youth (Futuwwa) is way too major than some fringe groups.

Mussolini in Arabia Newsweek excerpts: October 7, 1940... made a trip to Libya and there proclaimed himself the "Defender of Islam" Leaflets which reminded Arabs that Mussolini was there "defender" [20]. In Egypt the Italians have adopted much of the same line, and last week they also continued efforts to woo King Farouk with promises that if he threw in his lot with the totalitarian powers he might become the head of a greater Arab state. [21]. In 1937 Mussolini had himself ceremonially proclaimed the 'Protector of Islam' (More here: [22] and here [23])

I did not include "ALL" Arab fascist groups, especially the minor ones or those that weren't so fascistic in nature like the three: Futuwwa/SSNP/YoungEgypt.

Do you want Iran, Turkey to be included? I hope TFD won't object that because of that, it's (M.E. section) is "too large." I am trying to shrink and trim.

Sallese (talk) 21:13, 4 May 2010 (UTC)

Mussolini only held loyalty to fulfilling what he deemed as the Italian nation's destiny to be restored as a new Roman Empire, with himself as its ruler, any alliance he made was to be in the interest of Italy. He was a Machiavellian who flip-flopped on the issue of supporting Hitler because in 1933, he wanted a fascist government in Germany, in 1934 he opposed the Nazis because their aim to annex Austria toppled a regime that was a faithful ally of Fascist Italy, and then in 1936 supported the Nazis after Nazi Germany was the only country to support and congradulate Italy for its invasion and occupation of Ethiopia. Support of Hitler by in the Arab community in general may more indicate a preference for the ideals of Nazism, particularly its anti-Semitism, but back in the 1930s many societies had high anti-Semitism and racism until it became taboo after the Holocaust. My country of Canada in the 1930s as lead by Prime Minister William Lyon Mackenzie King was a liberal democracy that was notoriously racist against Jews, Canada's aboriginal people, and non-Whites in general. Canada's system of residential schools that involved the destruction of aboriginal culture and regular maltreatment of aboriginals resulting in a massively high death rate was designed to "eliminate" the aboriginal people as an independent culture. But Mackenzie King and his Liberal Party of Canada were not fascist. South Africa had many political parties that did not reject democracy and liberties for whites but denied civil rights to people of colour and supported Hitler's anti-Semitism during World War II. What me and other Wikipedia editors need to know about Al-Futuwa is if it was connected to a political party, or if it was a paramilitary wing of the Iraqi state. Regardless, I have looked into Al-Futuwa, and at the least, it is clearly a para-fascist youth group, like the National Organisation of Youth under the para-fascist regime of Ioannis Metaxas' regime in Greece.--R-41 (talk) 01:05, 5 May 2010 (UTC)

Of course there were non-fascist anti-Jewish forces, but fascism was the outstanding - most anti-Jewish (alonmg Nazism - as they copperated) in rhetoric and in action and it's anti-Jewishness was a FEATURE in its FASCISM. I'm not sure I follow the "legitimization" of such a Hitleristic anti Jewish nazi youth group, al-Futuwwa, Was it not a HITLERJUGEND group? and it is/was not called FASCIST? I am not sure what you mean by "political", all Nazis, Fascists groups claimed to be "political."

Wait, do you mean the futuwwa group in Palestine? that's not the same as the Iraqi al-Futuwwa (FYI)!

Futuwwa factsheet

Described fascist: al-Muthanna / it's youth wing al-Futuwwa
[24] (Gibb, Sir Hamilton Alexander Rosskeen and Johannes Hendrik Kramers, Bernard Lewis, Charles Pellat, Joseph Schacht, The Encyclopaedia of Islam, Volume 4, Brill, 1954, p. 125) [25]

Officially modeled after the Hitler Jugend
[26] [27] [28][29][30]. [31] (Mattar, Philip, Encyclopedia of the Modern Middle East & North Africa, p. 860) [32][33]

Besides espousing a fanatic Pan-Arabism, the Futuwwa adopted a frankly totalitarian ideology [34]

I hope you are not disputing all, the facts, and so many resources!

Now, a question, Do you have any information of Arabs resisting fascism/nazism in that era? It can help me in my research, thanks. Sallese (talk) 02:40, 5 May 2010 (UTC)

Well then, this Al-Muthanna movement should be included since I remember reading that Al-Futuwa's founder was the minister of education in Iraq in the 1930s. So it was in the seats of power in Iraq, so that is a prominent one to mention. But I notice in the Google Books link that you are looking up Al-Muthanna's association with Hitler, though that does link it to a fascist movement, it would be better and more clear to find sources that link it directly to fascism itself, or the root of all fascism, the capital "F" Fascism of Italy. As for Arabs resisting fascism, there was , as I mentioned Omar Muktar in Libya, and Libyans aided the British in defeating the Italian and German armed forces. There were Arab leaders in Iraq such as Nuri as-Said who resisted the Iraqi government's decision in 1941 to rebel against British authorities in favour of the Axis Powers. Egyptian Arab nationalists initially had a flirtation of admiration of fascism in the 1920s, but the brutality which Fascist Italy imposed on their fellow Arabs in Libya from the 1920s to 1931 led them to be disgusted. The main point that needs to be understood is that there were fascist collaborators, anti-fascist resistance and very many bystanders who either were: afraid to resist the political winds; saw fascism and fascist powers as an opportunity to exploit; were swayed by fascist demagoguery of national redemption, economic security, and grandeur; or were ignorant of the issues at hand in Europe.--R-41 (talk) 04:21, 5 May 2010 (UTC)

Fascism & al-Muthanna

• Memories of state: politics, history, and collective identity in modern Iraq, by Eric Davis, 2005, page 74
  

"the al-Muthanna Club, whose members, heavily influenced by European fascism, formed the core of new radicals for the civilian-military Pan-Arab coalition..." [35]

• The Encyclopaedia of Islam, Volume 4‎ - Page 125 (by Sir Hamilton Alexander Rosskeen Gibb, Johannes Hendrik Kramers, Bernard Lewis, Charles Pellat, Joseph Schacht - Islam - 1954)

"from the Fascist- oriented al-Muthanna Club, later renamed the National Democratic Party; the Progressive Socialist Party in Lebanon; and others" [36]

I appreciate very much this line: "Egyptian Arab nationalists initially had a flirtation of admiration of fascism in the 1920s, but the brutality which Fascist Italy imposed on their fellow Arabs in Libya from the 1920s to 1931 led them to be disgusted." intending to insert it (I hope you have a link/source to this), as I am inserted the fact that Mussolini's party imposed racial rules against Arabs as well (alongside Jews & Africans), to show that some Arabs were VICTIMS of fascism as well!.

Thanks to you, I found more on Omar al-Mukhtar

Umar al-Mukhtar VS Amir Shakib Arslan

After hanging Umar Al-Mukhtar, a book came out "the new land of Islam," the book praised Shakib Arslan for envisioning Italian victory and for prescribing, in time, for the correct Arab attitude, and also lauds General Graziani the henchman of 'Umar al-Mukhtar in 1931 for being the true friend of Arabism.

Amir Shakib Arslan was by far the most important figure in the context of Mussolini's influence in the whole Middle Eastern arena, He undertook to spread the world of the Duce, and to exploit the Abyssinian crisis in order to inspire the younger generation in the Middle east to revolt against the French and the British. He hoped that such an uprising would enhance pan-Arabism, especially his brand, namely Arabism with a strong element of Islamic identity and solidarity. In the dozens of articles published in 1935, he combined the negative messages of radical Islam with the modern message of fascist propaganda. Most of Arslan's work was published primarily in Syrian, Lebanese, and Palestinian papers, in some Egyptian press and was widely read in Egypt.

Sallese (talk) 14:36, 5 May 2010 (UTC)

I think you are focusing way to much on support of fascism by Arabs, in the examples section for Asia the focus must be specific Arab fascist movements. This section should not make a judgement on whether Arabs as a whole were either supportive or non-supportive of fascism, such a judgement would appear as stereotyping. It should also not just claim that because some people called someone a "Mussolini" like figure that that automatically makes them fascist. Mussolini and fascism were highly popular for a time, Winston Churchill, a person who accepted parliamentary democracy unlike fascists, once said that he admired Mussolini and that he would be honoured to don the Italian Fascist black shirt uniform. He ended up being one of those who led the campaign to destroy fascism in Europe.--R-41 (talk) 16:59, 6 May 2010 (UTC)

OK, I am adding more on the fascist character of Iran's Pahlavi

Iran's Pahlavi's regime was described (among other things) as fascist in style, and it was this characteristic that led the allies to be worried it might fall into Nazi Germany control The Pahlavi regime, like those in Nazi Germany and Fascist Italy, propounds a vigorous nationalist ideology based on chauvinism, imperial nostalgia and the cult of a leader. On 17 September 1941 the shah was forced to abdicate in favor of his son Mohammaed Reza Pahlavi and go into exile. In March 1943, German SD agents parachuted into Iran (Operation Franz) and a "Nationalist Organization of Iran" in exile in Germany worked with radio propaganda on behalf of fascism. Sallese (talk) 13:40, 7 May 2010 (UTC)

That's not what I was trying to inform you at all. There were many para-fascist regimes and movements - para-fascist means that it was influenced by fascism and holds a number of major components fascist doctrine (i.e. radical and militant nationalism, anti-communism, advocacy of a state corporatism, leadership cult, paramilitary group usage, and authoritarianism) - a police state) but holds significant differences from fascism. I want the section reorganized in the manner that the other example fascist movement sections are: focus on the specific fascist movement - not the country and not the nationality of those involved. The Syrian Social Nationalist Party is a major example that should be mentioned (I imagine that pro-SSNP users on Wikipedia will deny its fascist roots, but the combined fact of its radical and militant nationalism advocating a Greater Syria, anti-communism, its flag that is obviously based on the Nazi swastika flag, along with multiple sources that say it is fascist are enough to overcome that).--R-41 (talk) 16:26, 7 May 2010 (UTC)

I have just reorganized it, there's no question about what you said that the SSNP was the most fascistic, I think that for historical accuracy the general activities has to be noted (because of proprtion of the entire epopulation in the ME, the influence it had, etc.), What do you think of the Young Egypot Assoc. it was defined as fascist, or should we move it to para-fascism?

---

Not sure what TheFourDeuces means by "bias", biased towards anti fascism? what are the 2 sides that he refers to? aren't all those mentioned historic fact? I have omitted all the MASSIVE fascist parties and activity in Arab-Palestine for the very reason NOT to get into a ME two-sides story. though, because of TheFourDeuces comment I have put NOW more guilt on the fascist influx than on local, it starts off like this:

1) Before Italian fascism & Hitler's propaganda, there wasn't a known fascism trend in Arabia.

More on what I have added recently to make the locals look better:

2) Mussolini's PNF passed racial legislations against Arabs (as well as against Jews and Africans). [362] It has been argued (by author Robert Gerwarth) that the Italian Fascist regime committed its most numerous crimes against Arabs, blacks and Slavs.[363]

3) ...but the brutality which Fascist Italy imposed on their fellow Arabs in Libya from the 1920s to 1931 led them to be disgusted. Initially the fascist regime took a hard line against Libyan Arab nationalists, who had been fighting a civil war for independence for many years under the leadership of Omar Mukhtar.

All the three sections above weren't needed so much from a historical point were it not for claims of "biased", so its in there anyhow.

What clearly is not "para-fascism"

• "Mussolinism," adopting his fascism in the ME. The leading advocate of a rapprochement with fascism in the Middle East, the pro-Nazi Rashid Ali al-Gaylani. His main propagandist = Shakib Arslan, the "fruits" of the Arab-fascists collaboration in Tunisia [37]
• The leader = Mufti (called the 'Fuhrer of the Arab world,' he was a totalitarian, crushing everyone in his way including Arabs that didn't go along with his line), flown to fascist-Italy by Mussolini, out of fascist-regime Iran where he was hiding, meeting with him [38] and coming out with a declaration in support of his fascism & promising a fascist cooperation [39] [40], his hands in forming a few fascist groups, especially his influence over forming the SSNP (as fascist-Arab-street overshadowed religious differences) [41].
• The youth scouts of al-Muthanna defined as fascsist (cited above), it's wing = "Hitlerjugend" futuwwa (who had nazi activity in Nurmberg, and interchgange with Hitler Youth leader Baldur von Schirach in 1938-1939), with its "totalitarian" ideology [42], it's importance in history because of: pro-axis Iraqi' government sponsorship, ministry of education head: Saib Shawkat's prominece, his "territorially expansionism," his vision... and the Farhud action.
• SSNP, Its swastika-type flag, its own "fuhrer".
THE THREE 'IMPORTANT' FASCIST GROUPS

The following discussion on the "shirts" and their fascist characteristics borrows from a brief but excellent article by Elsa Marston, "Fascist Tendencies in Pre-War Arab Policies: A study of Three Arab Political Movements, [PPS SSNP, Misr al-Fatat (Young Egypt), and Futuwa]," Middle East Forum, 35 (May, 1959), pp. 19-22 [43]

Also quoted here [44], and here: [45]

As agreed to avoid the (deeper into) Palestine real fascism, though there was much of Mufti's parties, youth & other groups, and plans clearly defined as fascist.

What's propably along the lines of "para-fascism"

• Baathism, although it was founded also upon European-fascism, socialism was also (probably as much a) base for it. Though there's this:

  the ideological similarity between Baathism and fascism is quite striking.

  (American Government and Politics Today 2008: The Essentials, Barbara A. Bardes, Mack C. Shelley, Steffen W. Schmidt, published by Cengage Learning, page 18)
• Nasserism, even though Nasser & his rule referred to as fascist in style. or Qaddafi (Gadhafi)'s Libya. [46]

You cannot use a brief observation from an introductory US politics textbook to argue that Ba'athism was parafascist. You have to use books about fascism written by leading experts. TFD (talk) 17:45, 9 May 2010 (UTC)

You have a point here, I didn't use this particular source in the fascism page, I only quoted it here. Sallese (talk) 18:26, 9 May 2010 (UTC)

In question

When the writer mentioned at least seven groups as proto-fascists in the Arab world.

Sallese (talk) 17:26, 9 May 2010 (UTC)

The section spends way to much time talking about regimes and groups that were "fascist-like" of "kind of like fascism". It spends too much time illustrating every possible and known fascist movement in the Middle East rather than focusing on important ones and ignoring the Jewish fascist ideology Revisionist Maximalism associated with Brit HaBirionim] that should be included if all fascist movements are attempted to be described in the section. But I do not see mentioning every one as useful. The Syrian Social Nationalist Party and Al-Muthanna of Iraq were two prominent ones that have held major leverage in power in governments. And note that they are specific fascist movements. Let's leave out the debatable ones and the para-fascist absolute monarchy of Iran. The atmosphere of the Middle East is not the issue in this section, based on the other sections, the focus should be on the specific fascist movements themselves.--R-41 (talk) 22:25, 9 May 2010 (UTC)

In your point of view, does it not have to be mentioned at all, Do you agree on such a statement, "public opinion in support of fascism in the Arab street"? In any case, the inner content deals with Mussolini's propagandist in the ME & the three groups, most of all. regards, Sallese (talk) 22:48, 9 May 2010 (UTC)

Social welfare

This section appears to be misleading. While welfare spending increased in Italy between 1930 and 1940, the fascists began with liberal economics and only increased government spending to alleviate the effects of the depression particularly as it affected their members. Welfare spending in the US during the same period actually increased by a greater amount.[47] TFD (talk) 23:49, 4 May 2010 (UTC)

But that was when the Fascists had to form a coalition with liberals, conservatives, and nationalists in the Italian parliament. I don't think comparing the amount to the U.S. detracts from the point that Italy spent on social welfare. Fascists did not have egalitarian ethos, but they did have group identity ethos of the nation, and promoted protecting their nation from dangers external to their individual dispositions. It is a right-wing social welfare. Remember, that the difference between left-wing and right-wing that is often confused and misinterpreted is that essentially right-wing involves the intentional support of hierarchical society as a goal, left-wing means the intentional egalitarian society as a goal. Outside of those goals, they use either tradition (typically for the right-wing) or social change (typically for left-wing) as legitimation for those types of societies.--R-41 (talk) 02:15, 5 May 2010 (UTC)

I am not confused about the difference between left and right. However it is important to understand whether the welfare state was a core fascist value or inherited, as in Germany, or a method of dealing with the depression. Studies after the Second World War have shown that fascists have been hostile to government involvement in the economy. TFD (talk) 20:19, 5 May 2010 (UTC)

How were they hostile to government intervention? If you're referring to early Italian Fascism, with its more laissez-faire economics, then you may be correct, but all fascist movements in Europe that I can think of were quite content and specifically aimed to employ significant economic intervention: the Iron Guard, with Codreanu's National-Christian Socialist ideology, the Arrow Cross Party, with its support of the peasantry and working-class welfare, and the Falange, which planned to nationalize major banks and industries as part of its National Syndicalist stance. Nazi Germany, obviously, centralized the affairs of public finance and covered the entire German economy with Keynesian policies. Saying fascists have proven hostile to economic intervention is simply incorrect and misleading. --UNSC Trooper (talk) 13:16, 6 May 2010 (UTC)

It seems the fascists were following the same economic policies that mainstream parties followed at the time - liberalism in the 20s and big government in the 30s and 40s (the fact that you would call it Keynsianism underscores the point). Today's fascists have adopted American style libertarianism. My point is that the article should mention what if any core beliefs about economics they had. TFD (talk) 13:41, 6 May 2010 (UTC)

I disagree that fascists have been hostile to intervention in the economy. Fascists have supported state intervention to ensure national control over the economy and for economic stability. A number of neo-Nazi parties, such as the British National Party and National Democratic Party of Germany have campaigned on promising to reduce unemployment and support of social welfare and economic rights for white workers. --R-41 (talk) 17:03, 6 May 2010 (UTC)

"The neo-fascist New Right has frequently adopted neo-conservative New Right positions, especially on the economy or social welfare reform...." (The Routledge companion to fascism and the far right)[48] TFD (talk) 17:29, 6 May 2010 (UTC)

That is a good point that you found. Hmm. So there is division nowadays. But is that the norm, what of the neo-fascists that do support social welfare like that of Mussolini or Hitler?--R-41 (talk) 17:52, 6 May 2010 (UTC)

This article claims that unlike in other countries the German middle class were economically conservative, and looked to government for protection against big business, labor and foreign competition. So it seems that economic policy is not part of core fascist doctrine. In any case the section on social welfare should explain how these policies related to fascist theory. BTW there has been a lot written about modern European neofascists. Google "right-wing populism". TFD (talk) 19:12, 6 May 2010 (UTC)

That makes sense. Classical liberals and Marxists often claim that the middle class bourgeois are in favour of laissez-faire capitalism, but historically mercantilism and protectionism become popular with the middle class in times of economic woe. And you certainly are correct TFD that German conservatives had gripes with big business. German conservatives were very frustrated with uncontrolled liberal capitalism, they saw it as a source of decadence, and its goal of economic globalization as having the effect of sponsoring cosmopolitanism, two things that disgusted a number of German conservatives. One such prominent German conservative was Oswald Spengler, who called for a conservative "Prussian socialism" that would instill government authority over the economy thereby in his claim representing the people while retaining private property under this authority, while destroying classical liberal economic individualism and its claimed decadence in favour of "Prussian" discipline. Spengler's Prussian socialism influenced the Conservative Revolutionary movement as well as the Nazis.--R-41 (talk) 21:16, 6 May 2010 (UTC)

The section on fascism's stance on religion is extremely confusing and unclear

I have tried to read through the stance on religion section, it is like a maze. It jumps back and forth from subject to subject with no overall topics, just citing innumerable examples of specific actions by specific fascist movements regarding specific religions. I think that the section needs to be entirely rewritten.--R-41 (talk) 18:16, 6 May 2010 (UTC)

• Maybe it should be divided into subsections, although I don't know how. If one tries to divide it into Pro-religious/Anti-religious/Neutral stance than there's the problem of some regimes whose ideologies fluctuated over time. On the other hand, dividing it into Fascism/Nazis/Others doesn't do much good, as it's still confusing and blurry. I do however notice a trend. It starts with an non-religious period in some ideologies, than they increasingly become more intertwined with religion. At the end, all end up with strong religious ties. At leaast that's the way I read it - ArnoldPlaton (talk) 15:41, 9 May 2010 (UTC)

History section

Thanks to whoever worked on the "Historical causes" section and made the early stages of Fascism clear. It's now a lot easier to determine Fascism's initial left-wing nature and its shift to the right. --UNSC Trooper (talk) 07:39, 9 May 2010 (UTC)

I added that material. I figured that it was necessary for the article to be clear about Italian Fascism's origins in Sorelian syndicalism. If people wish to criticize my motivations on why I added material on left-wing origins of fascism, I hope they take note on my user page that I am a social democrat who dislikes capitalism, communism, and fascism.--R-41 (talk) 15:49, 9 May 2010 (UTC)