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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by HaterofIgnorance (talk | contribs) at 01:01, 13 June 2010 (→"Muhammad is" vs. "Muhammad was"). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

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Good articleMuhammad has been listed as one of the Philosophy and religion good articles under the good article criteria. If you can improve it further, please do so. If it no longer meets these criteria, you can reassess it.
Article milestones
DateProcessResult
September 7, 2005Peer reviewReviewed
January 8, 2006Good article nomineeListed
March 30, 2006Good article reassessmentDelisted
July 5, 2008Good article nomineeListed
Current status: Good article

Correction Required in Article Regarding how to write paternity

Hi.. Please note I like to draw your attention that while writing paternity for muslim names there is an error which is as follows:

In article about Prophet Muhammad it writes Muhammad ibn Abdullah it should read Muhammad Bin Abdullah. It totally changes the whole relationship. Bin means Son Of and ibn means Father of. Like Abdullah ibn Muhammad..is correct..

I hope Iam able to convey my point. Similarly I have noticed when they write the names in arabic language same error is there. I do not know how to go to arabic letters and can explain how it effects with replacing a letter.. I know the letters but do not how to find in wikipedia.

I will be glad if some one can fix this error and others like imam abu hanifa article I am sure the same error is there.

Thanks

____

Abdullah ibn Muhammad is correct?? .. NO, ibn and bin or ben , are the same , they mean " son ", however , ben and bin are familiar, like slang... about, imam abu hanifa , means imam father of hanifa, not son of hanifa

if we say Abullah ibn Muhammad, that means, Abdullah is the son of Muhaùmmad

abu أبو = father

ibnu ابن , bin , ben بن = son

محمد ابن عبد الله = Muhammad ibn Abdellah

الإامام أبو حنيفة = imam abu hanifa

--- Correct, I concur, Ibn = ben = son Thanks

Allaha or khuda is not what is muhhamad

Muhhamad is only a prophet god is allaha —Preceding unsigned comment added by 210.212.126.39 (talk) 11:56, 21 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

This is not a forum, please do not post unless it is in regards to improving the article. Your statement makes no sense Smitty1337 (talk) 12:48, 21 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Hello, Mohammed (PBUH) IS the last prophet as it is written so in the Holy Quran. Therefore, those who don't believe what is written in the HQ, aren't really Muslims. So it's not "Most Muslims", should be "All muslims".

Source: (From the HQ) Al-Ahzab, verse #40 // سورة الأحزاب, آية 40

Ottin Z (talk) 01:14, 22 May 2010 (UTC)O.Z. 22/5/2010[reply]

That's an excellent example of the No true Scotsman fallacy.
Nevertheless, the phrase "most Muslims" in the article should be qualified or sourced, because the statement means that some Muslims don't regard Muhammad as the last prophet. I agree this does look strange. ~Amatulić (talk) 06:37, 22 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
This is not a No true scotsman fallacy. the action in this scenario (belief in Muhammad as prophet) is a requirement for the Subject (being muslim). Take for instance "Most aethiests believe there is no god" makes no sense as a person would by definition of the word aethist, immediatly cease to be one, if they believed in any god. Smitty1337 (talk) 07:37, 22 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Saying whether a denomination is part of a given religion is very tricky and full of POV. Nevertheless, I think we would have a fairly wide consensus that someone who did not view Muhammad as a profit is, by definition, not Muslim, even if they share all other aspects of the religion. Just like how we could say that a Unitarian is not a Christian even if they follow all of Jesus' moral teachings. So, I think we can probably drop the qualifier "most". —Arctic Gnome (talk • contribs) 09:19, 22 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Smitty: Yes, it is a No True Scotsman fallacy. We are not discussing whether belief in Muhammad as a prophet is a requirement for being Muslim. We are discussing specifically the phrase in the lead: "[regarded] by most Muslims the last prophet as taught by the Qur'an" (emphasis mine). All Muslims believe Muhammad is a prophet. It is reasonable, however, that some Muslims may believe the possibility of other prophets coming along later. This doesn't make them not-Muslim.
If such Muslims do exist, then saying "they aren't True Muslims" is a fallacy.
Similarly, a good many Muslims (the Shia) believe there is nothing wrong with images of Muhammad in this article, in spite of the majority (Sunni) insisting that it's "forbidden" in Islam. Muhammad was the last prophet at the time the Qu'ran was written. It's conceivable that some Muslims are aware of this, and it isn't forbidden to interpret the Qu'ran in a rational manner.
The word "most" was put in there by somebody for a reason. Before it's removed, I'd like to know what the range of views is among Muslims regarding Muhammad being the last prophet. ~Amatulić (talk) 01:17, 25 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Muslims believe Jesus was taken bodily into heaven and that he will return to be a witness against the unbelievers during the resurrection. So in that sense, Muslims believe a prophet will once again return to earth. Rklawton (talk) 03:10, 25 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
It depends on whether or not you define followers of Ahmadiyya Islam "Muslim". Most Muslim authorities do not, but they do and a subset of them believe that Mirza Ghulam Ahmad was a prophet. nableezy - 03:59, 25 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Rklawton, I'm skeptical that the writer of that phrase "most Muslims" had the sense in mind that you describe.
Thanks Nableezy! You just taught me something new.
Regarding Ahmadiyya Islam, Christianity has an analogous situation. Most Christians don't regard Jehovah's Witnesses as Christian, but Jehovah's Witnesses consider themselves the only "true Christians" (this may be a generalization but it's based on me asking one of them). In other words, it is not Wikipedia's place to define who does or doesn't belong to a religion; how a group defines themselves should be sufficient.
So I'd say it is correct for the article to say "most Muslims" believe Muhammad was the last prophet.
Perhaps a footnote after the phrase "most Muslims" should be added to explain what "most" means, citing Ahmadiyya Islam and Mirza Ghulam Ahmad and the fact that Muslim authorities disagree whether this group qualifies as Muslim. Without some sort of explanation, the phrase looks pretty strange in context. ~Amatulić (talk) 05:07, 25 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Prophet Muhammad Sal ALLAHu alaihi wa Sallam (May the Peace and Blessings of ALLAH Subhabahu wa Ta'ala (swt) be on him was not the founder of Islam and there is no evidence to back this claim, but he was the messenger of Allah, it says so in Surah Fattah, surah #48 of the Holy Quran. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Sister R (talk • contribs) 18:48, 25 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

This comment isn't relevant to this discussion thread, and has been answered in the next section. ~Amatulić (talk) 21:52, 26 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

If truly "most" muslims believe that he was the last prophet then why were there huge wars between muslims and Musaylimah who pretended to be a prophet after him ? Plus, the source given after the phrase clearly says "Seal/Last of the prophets" and once again, if someone doesnt believe in this which is written in the Holy Quran then they aren't muslims, their religion is merely similar. Islam is like a one-package deal, people can't pick this and ignore that, just take it (all) or leave it (all). BTW, the drawings are forbidden for both parties in Islam, not just the Sunni. Ottin Z (talk) 03:35, 30 May 2010 (UTC)O.Z. 30/5/2010[reply]

How you define "Muslim" is irrelevant. If a group seriously considers themselves Muslim, then we call them Muslims. At most, we can mention that there is disagreement over whether this or that group is actually considered Muslim. Wikipedia cannot present points of theology as verifiable fact.
Christianity is the same way, basically a one-package deal, but there are many variations, and some groups do not consider other groups Christian. Just as they all accept the Bible, they have many interpretations, such as the world being created in 6 literal days or 6 figurative "days". Similarly, it is conceivable that "last Prophet" could be interpreted as "last up to the time the Qu'ran was written" or something like that. There isn't just one correct way to interpret the Qu'ran, no matter how fervently you wish it to be so. As discussed above, there is clearly one group of Muslims who accepts a prophet after Muhammad.
BTW, the drawings are not forbidden by all parties; see depictions of Muhammad for further information. ~Amatulić (talk) 14:56, 30 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

"Muhammad is" vs. "Muhammad was"

First of all, I am no expert on Islam or Muhammad, but the opening line seems strange to me. It currently reads "Muhammad is the founder..." Deceased historical people generally were something, and are not considered to currently be something (i.e. "Muhammad is"). So it seems to me that all sentences should be "Muhammad was the founder..." I understand there are exceptions for someone like Jesus, who is considered to be both a semi-historical figure and also often believed to be an eternal conceptual entity. But Muhammad isn't considered by Muslims to be "eternal", is he? They don't think that he still exists though (besides in Heaven or whatever), right? Even though he was a prophet, that's different than being eternal. I mean, Joseph Smith is a prophet, but his article doesn't say "Joseph Smith is the founder and prophet of the Latter Day Saint Movement." That would seem a little strange. So, with your approval, I think it should be changed so that every sentence refers to Muhammad in the past tense. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.179.144.10 (talk • contribs) 00:01, 25 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I can think of two reasons: (1) stating "Muhammad was the founder" would imply that he was the founder some time in the past, but not anymore. He was the founder, and still is the founder; (2) the sentences that follow are also in the present tense and it may seem awkward to mix tenses.
The use of past tense in the Joseph Smith article seems strange to me. He is still the founder. I think it's more correct if the lead sentence in Joseph Smith were changed to present tense, but then it wouldn't fit with the rest of the paragraph. So I guess either way works, depending on how the paragraph is written. ~Amatulić (talk) 01:04, 25 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Why not solve the grammatical problem with, "Muhammad founded..."?82.71.30.178 (talk) 23:25, 5 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

The dispute here is not of the past or present tense; the point i am trying to make is that he never ever was the "founder" of Islam but the messenger of ALLAH. So if you could kindly remove the mis-information about his being the FOUNDER of Islam i am sure it will be appreciated by all Muslims. Thanks, Sister R —Preceding unsigned comment added by Sister R (talk • contribs) 18:55, 25 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Amatulić, thanks for bringing this up. It seems that the lead sentence requires the use of 2 different tenses. In the first usage, Muhammad "was" the founder of Islam, a specific event which occurred in the past. In the second usage, Muhammad "is" currently regarded by Muslims as a prophet. I tweaked the article's text to reflect this.
Sister R, the concept that Muhammad was a messenger of Allah represents a point of theology rather than a verifiable fact. Since there was no religion called Islam before Muhammad, the common English-language usage would have it that he is the founder. In the specific case of how Wikipedia uses the phrase, this is not done to cause offense, but to maintain a neutral point of view and encyclopedic tone. Doc Tropics 21:35, 26 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

And Muhammad is not the last prophet, either - at least not according to the Qu'ran. The Qu'ran states that in the end of times Jesus will return. That would make Jesus the last prophet. Rklawton (talk) 16:58, 8 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Uh... Jesus is a prophet before Muhammad. If he returns, he'd still not be the final prophet. Ogress smash! 22:48, 8 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
According to the Qu'ran, he'd be the last prophet to walk this earth - with Muhammad sandwiched between. The Qu'ran mentions no other prophet coming to earth after Jesus' return - so that makes Jesus the last prophet. Rklawton (talk) 22:57, 8 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Why is this argument even happening? the word Is or Was is a first person singular past tense indicative of "Be", a verb, describing the first person singular "Muhammad" in a past tense, Because he is not currently alive. If you use the word "is" the word does not imply a present tense on the object "founder" it implies it on the Subject "Muhammad" and it is grammatically flawed. Forget all the other arguments about points of theology, the man Muhammad is dead he WAS not IS. If i made the sentence "Muhammad was a man" that is accurate he was a man while alive and still is a man in death; "Muhammad is a man" is not correct because the "is" as I'm showing here, does not provide a tense to the object "Man" only to "Muhammad" and in this sentence it would appear I'm claiming that he still is alive. Smitty1337 (talk) 23:33, 8 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

If you look at the discussion carefully, you'll see that this argument isn't happening. It was happening :) until 26 May, when Doc Tropics tweaked the wording. The discussion since then is about who is the last prophet, Jesus or Muhammad. That's off topic. ~Amatulić (talk) 01:04, 9 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

RKlawton: Jesus the Messiah (peace be upon him) will not introduce a new faith when he comes back from the heavens according to Islam, therefore he won't be a NEW prophet. He is going to save the faith of Islam with the Mahdi/Imam Muhammad Al-Mahdi (peace be upon him). Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) throughout the Qur'an is referenced as the FINAL PROPHET AND THE FINAL SEAL OF THE PROPHETS. I am sure Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) and Prophet Jesus the Messiah (peace be upon him) knows more about Allah/God and Islam more than you do. END OF STORY HaterofIgnorance (talk) 01:01, 13 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Edit request from ahmed.wajahat, 9 June 2010

{{editsemiprotected}}

I would request to add the following line to the second last para of "European and Western views" section of Muhammad (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muhammad) page.

Famous French writer, poet and politician Alphonse de Lamartine believes Mohammad as the greatest man in history as: "If greatness of purpose, smallness of means, and astonishing results are the three criteria of a human genius, who could dare compare any great man in history with Muhammad?”

Ahmed.wajahat (talk) 14:54, 9 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Can you provide a citation for this quotation? The Alphonse de Lamartine article contains that quote without a citation, instead linking to a French Wikipedia article which also doesn't seem to contain that quote or a citation. ~Amatulić (talk) 17:18, 9 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Even if a valid citation could be provided, is what a poet/politician "believe" significant in the larger picture ? Am sure there are around another one and half billion people considering him to be the greatest man in "history"! Arjuncodename024 17:48, 9 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
It is significant in the context of western views espoused by a notable historical figure. That's why we have a section on western views in this article. The other 1.5 billion non-notable people who share the same belief don't matter in this context. ~Amatulić (talk) 18:10, 9 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
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