Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2010 November 8

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November 8

Buildings and Structures in South Dublin County

Propose re-naming Category:Buildings and Structures in South Dublin County to Category:Buildings and structures in South Dublin County

Nominator's rationale For consistency. The parent cat is Category:Buildings and structures in the Republic of Ireland. All articles in this cat have a lower case "s" for structures. Laurel Lodged (talk) 23:27, 8 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Support correct capitalisation. Peterkingiron (talk) 23:39, 8 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Category:Members of the New Democrat Coalition

Category:Members of the New Democrat Coalition - Template:Lc1

Category:Members of the Blue Dog Coalition - Template:Lc1

Category:Members of the Congressional Progressive Caucus - Template:Lc1

Nominator's rationale: Delete. I agree with categorizing U.S. politicians by party, but I don't agree with categorizing them by intra-party congressional caucuses. One, I don't think it's particularly defining for most members. Two, membership in these groups is fluid and the caucuses are much more likely to change, be created, and be abolished than political parties. The congressional caucuses for the Republican Party were recently deleted. All the contents are otherwise appropriately categorized in a subcategory of Category:Democratic Party (United States) politicians, so there is no need to upmerge anything. As they stand now, these categories are woefully underpopulated as compared to the topics' true sizes. Good Ol’factory ^(talk) 23:16, 8 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Delete per nom. Lists would be fine, if desired, but categories run afoul of WP:OCAT. Bearcat (talk) 00:17, 14 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Dublin

Propose renaming Category:Public houses in Dublin City to Category:Public houses in Dublin

Propose renaming Category:Museums in Dublin City to Category:Museums in Dublin

Propose renaming Category:Bridges in Dublin City to Category:Bridges in Dublin

Propose renaming Category:Hotels in Dublin City to Category:Hotels in Dublin

Nominator's rationale: Rename. Suggest renaming these to match main article Dublin and parent categories Category:Dublin and Category:Buildings and structures in Dublin. Was nominated at speedy under criterion C2C but opposed by creator of the categories. I think that unless all of the subcategories of Category:Dublin are going to change, there is no reason for these only to be different. Creator has tried to get consensus for this usage in the past, but has not succeeded. Good Ol’factory ^(talk) 20:41, 8 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

copy of speedy nomination

Category:Public houses in Dublin City to Category:Public houses in Dublin — C2C Good Ol’factory ^(talk) 22:33, 7 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Category:Museums in Dublin City to Category:Museums in Dublin — C2C Good Ol’factory ^(talk) 22:17, 7 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Category:Bridges in Dublin City to Category:Bridges in Dublin — C2C Good Ol’factory ^(talk) 22:15, 7 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Category:Hotels in Dublin City to Category:Hotels in Dublin — C2C Good Ol’factory ^(talk) 22:16, 7 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose re-naming. There are 4 locan authorites in the Dublin Region. Only 1 of these is concerned with Dublin city as a city as opposed to the outer suburbs which are contained in the other 3 entities. The current name makes it clear that it is the city that is the subject of the category which the re-name would not do. Additionally, the former county of county Dublin is still alive in the popular imagination, if not in law. Once again, the current name makes it clear that it is the city that is the subject of the category (not the former conty) which the re-name would not do. There are cities names Dublin in the USA. They are distinguished by a comma followed by the state name. There is no need for Dublin to do this as it is the original "owner" of the name. The need for disambiguation is not transatlantic, but internal to the Region or County. Laurel Lodged (talk) 18:18, 8 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose the re-naming. It would be sacrilgious of me to describe myself as the Creator. I'll leave that honour to One greater than I. I think that it was very naughty of the proposer to have quoted discussions from other sections that are still live. In good TV court room dramas, the Judge would direct the jury to disregard those remarks and would censure the lawyer for introducing them out of order. It is presumptious even, to assume that the outcome will go in a certain direction. Having said all that, the proposer is correct in one thing - it could be illogical of the above categories to remain as named if the parent was not renamed. If the proposer intends to formulate a new proposal to rename Category Dublin to "Category Dublin City" or "Category Dublin city", I will be happy to second the proposal. Laurel Lodged (talk) 21:32, 8 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- This is not a courtroom procedure and no one is on trial. My only presumption is that category names should be consistent, which these are not. It would be extraordinary for there to be consensus to keep 4 categories differently named from their parent and sister categories. If you want the parent category to be renamed, a nomination is your responsibility, not mine. Until then, we can have uniformity of names in Category:Dublin. I'm glad you acknowledge the need for consistency. Good Ol’factory ^(talk) 22:31, 8 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Comment. The cats as currently named are a model of consitency and logic. It is their sisters and parents that are inconsistent and illogical. It would be foolish indeed to rename the correct cats to a known incorrect cat so that all could then be renamed to the original pattern at some future date. This folly must not be allowed to propogate. Laurel Lodged (talk) 23:16, 8 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Then nominate Category:Dublin and all its subcategories for renaming to see if others agree with you. I can't make it any more clear. But don't create new categories based on a new naming scheme that you feel is superior before your preferred scheme has been adopted. Good Ol’factory ^(talk) 23:31, 8 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Support -- We had a related discussion a few days ago. The old County Dublin has been split into several counties. They make up "Dublin region", but its categories ought to be parent-only ones to its new constituent counties (including the city). The city thus does not need "City" to disambiguate it. Peterkingiron (talk) 23:29, 8 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Support Renames to match title of parent article. Alansohn (talk) 23:46, 8 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Support -- The argument for rename appears solid, until such time, if any, as there should be a change of name of parent category. JackJud (talk) 13:18, 9 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
~~Oppose Re-names~~ (duplicate !vote struck) due to new evidence. There is precedent for the current naming convention. In Belgium, there is the city of Liège which lies in the province of Liège . Each has its own category. The category for the city is: Category:Buildings and structures in Liège (city) while the category for the province is Category:Buildings and structures in Liège (province). This leads us to the inescapable conclusion that if this proposal goes ahead, you must next proceed to the re-naming of Belgian cites. Who wants to open that can of worms? Laurel Lodged (talk) 21:58, 10 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- That may be a good reason to propose a rename for the entire Category:Dublin tree, but it's not a good reason to have these categories different than the rest of the tree in the meantime. Good Ol’factory ^(talk) 22:01, 10 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Comment. If the argument is strong enough for the parent, then by definition, it's strong enough for the children. A temporary re-naming, pending a parental re-naming, in the knowledge that the latter was likely to be imminent, would be pedantic, time-wasting and an exercise in futility. I urge good sense on editors: be led by your good sense; don't be led by the nose (good ol' or otherwise). Laurel Lodged (talk) 22:08, 10 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not sure the argument is strong enough—we would need a discussion on it to determine that. It's possible users would agree to it, but it also wouldn't be unusual for there to be a consensus against disambiguating it. Good Ol’factory ^(talk) 22:53, 10 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose to avoid ambiguity. At least one parent category, Category:Culture in Dublin, includes categories relating to County Dublin, including Category:Public houses in County Dublin. Cjc13 (talk) 11:18, 11 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

in that case the offending iteme need to be re categorised or move to a Dublin Region category. County Dublin exists as a hisotrical entity only and any categories for it should be merged into those for Dublin Region. Peterkingiron (talk) 16:28, 14 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Category:American secular humanists

Propose merging Category:American secular humanists to Category:American humanists

Nominator's rationale: Merge. Moved from a Speedy nomination. While I'm not the original nominator, I will say that while this is not completely redundant, it's not a level of thin-slicing I'm inclined to support.--Mike Selinker (talk) 16:02, 8 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Category:People killed in the Gaza flotilla raid

Category:People killed in the Gaza flotilla raid - Template:Lc1

Nominator's rationale: There were nine fatalities during the raid, all of whom are listed in a specific section of List of participants of the Gaza flotilla, and only four of whom have dedicated articles. The category has no potention for growth beyond these numbers and should be deleted pursuant to the guidelines contained in WP:SMALLCAT. Davshul (talk) 08:19, 8 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Delete This category is too specific. A more general category such as "Gaza flotilla raid" could be more suitable. Marokwitz (talk)
- In fact, there already is a Category:Gaza flotilla June 2010. Davshul (talk) 09:56, 8 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Delete -- Only a sick person would see this cat expand. recat articles to the main cat. --Shuki (talk) 16:48, 8 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Delete The category mentioned by Davshul is quite enough. I doubt that many of those killed are in fact notable for anything else, which would suggest that they be merged back into the list article. The whole event was merely a political stunt to embarrass Israel. Peterkingiron (talk) 23:32, 8 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Keep / Consider Rename to Category:People killed in the Gaza flotilla June 2010 The category accurately groups articles with a common defining characteristic. The rename would better correspond to the parent category. Alansohn (talk) 23:44, 8 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- ~~Please clarify~~Upmerge. Alansohn, you do not appear to have addressed the basic issue. It is not whether the category could be better named, but whether a category of this size with little or no potention for growth, should be deleted pursuant to WP guidelines, and, if not, why not. JackJud (talk) 13:11, 9 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Upmerge to Category:Deaths by firearm in international waters and Category:People killed by the Israel Defense Forces. I agree with the nominator's rationale for doing away with the category, but deleting without merging would remove some of the articles from one or both of the mentioned category trees. Also, shouldn't the parent category be renamed to Category:Gaza flotilla raid? -- Black Falcon ^(talk) 19:06, 9 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Agree Upmerge. As nominator, I agree to the suggestion that the category be upmerged, but I oppose the change of name of the parent category suggested by Black Falcon. The parent category covers all aspects of this flotilla, not just the "raid". Davshul (talk) 09:51, 10 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  - Thanks, that explains it. It could have a clearer name, though, such as Category:Gaza flotilla (June 2010) or, if it also covers the subsequent (planned?) flotillas, Category:Gaza flotilla (2010). -- Black Falcon ^(talk) 20:04, 10 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Category:Non-free audio samples

Propose renaming Category:Non-free audio samples to Category:Wikipedia non-free audio files or Category:Wikipedia non-free audio samples

Nominator's rationale: The "Wikipedia" is needed to clearly identify this as a high-level project category which should not contain any mainspace content pages. The top-level parent category for sounds is Category:Wikipedia audio files, so "audio samples" should be changed to "audio files" for consistency unless there is some copyright-related reason to use "samples". -- Black Falcon ^(talk) 05:58, 8 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Category:Wikipedia non-free sounds

Propose merging Category:Wikipedia non-free sounds to Category:Wikipedia audio files and Category:Wikipedia non-free content

Nominator's rationale: This category is an unnecessary layer between Category:Non-free audio samples (nominated for renaming above) and Category:Wikipedia audio files and Category:Wikipedia non-free content, and I think its contents (1 subcategory) should be upmerged. -- Black Falcon ^(talk) 05:50, 8 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Comment - Correct my if I'm wrong, but in theory all of our free sounds should be on commons, so it should be implied that any such content on Wikipedia is non-free without needing to identify it as such, at least in the title. VegaDark (talk) 07:03, 12 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
As far as I know, all of our free audio files are on the Commons. However, featured sounds (even though the actual files are on the Commons) are still categorized on Wikipedia. -- Black Falcon ^(talk) 18:15, 12 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Ah, yes, forgot about that. Any particular reason we do that? In any case, your proposal seems reasonable. VegaDark (talk) 03:43, 13 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I don't know, really, since Portal:Featured sounds contains a comprehensive and much more useful listing. Perhaps it is so that sounds will not be missing from Category:Featured content... -- Black Falcon ^(talk) 16:55, 13 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Category:Ogg files

The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the discussion was: Renamew. עוד מישהו Od Mishehu 13:43, 15 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Propose renaming Category:Ogg files to Category:Wikipedia Ogg files

Nominator's rationale: To clarify that this is a project category which is not intended for content about the Ogg format. -- Black Falcon ^(talk) 05:32, 8 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Or, delete as duplicative of Category:Wikipedia audio files, since almost all (maybe all?) audio and video files on Wikipedia are .ogg files. I suppose, though, that this could serve as an 'All files'-type category, but then it is woefully underpopulated. -- Black Falcon ^(talk) 05:53, 8 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Support rename And there are OGM files, IIRC. 76.66.203.138 (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 06:30, 8 November 2010 (UTC).[reply]

The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:The Silver Surfer

Propose renaming Category:The Silver Surfer to Category:Silver Surfer

Nominator's rationale: Per main article —Justin (koavf)❤T☮C☺M☯ 04:39, 8 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Support Rename to match title of parent article. Alansohn (talk) 23:45, 8 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Category:Party list New Zealand MPs

Propose renaming Category:Party list New Zealand MPs to Category:New Zealand list MPs

Nominator's rationale: Rename. New name is shorter and starts with New Zealand, bringing it into line with other similar categories. Mattlore (talk) 00:35, 8 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Comment. It seems to me that "party list" would be more appropriate to use. "Party list" is the general term that is usually used in this area of electoral politics, as in party-list proportional representation. NZ uses MMP, not PLP, but the terminology is generally the same. Rename to Category:New Zealand party-list MPs? Good Ol’factory ^(talk) 00:44, 8 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I am not so sure - these MPs are certaintly elected from a "party list" but they are usually referred to as "list MPs". I'll have a look at the standing orders and see what term they use Mattlore (talk) 02:26, 8 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

"Directions by the Speaker of the House of Representatives 2010" uses the term 'list member' and also declares that A list member must describe himself or herself as “List Member” in publicity that associates the list member with an electorate.[1] Not much of the legislation or SR's differentiate between the two types of members so I can't find much more but the wikipedia article is at List MP not party-list MP. Mattlore (talk) 02:39, 8 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Huh. That surprises me a little bit, but that's fine with me if that's the common way to refer to them in NZ docs. Good Ol’factory ^(talk) 03:03, 8 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Rename per nominator per above discussion. (I created the category.) Good Ol’factory ^(talk) 03:04, 8 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Support, as list MP is the common terminology in New Zealand. Schwede66 22:10, 8 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Category:Cultural Property of Great Importance

Propose renaming Category:Cultural Property of Great Importance to Category:Cultural Heritage of Serbia

Nominator's rationale: Rename. Technical nomination found as an incomplete speedy. Vegaswikian (talk) 00:34, 8 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Rename per nom, also all subcats, which should apparently all refer to Serbia. I am not sure of the merits of splitting into "exceptional importance" and "great importance", which would be POV if not based (presumably) on some govenrment classification. Also, the category is full of articles, depsite being tqagged that it should mainly only contain sub-cats. Peterkingiron (talk) 23:37, 8 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Cultural Heritage of Serbia appears to list the 12 categories for these. Vegaswikian (talk) 00:14, 9 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose nom, which just bundles all these listed things into a totally vague category. Instead they should all be renamed as "of Serbia", and an umbrella category set up, something like Listed cultural properties of Serbia, which can sit in Category:Cultural Heritage of Serbia. Equivalent US classifications are exhaustively categorized; why not Serbia too? Johnbod (talk) 13:53, 10 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Rename to Register of cultural heritage properties in Serbia along with the article. I think this makes the intent clearer since it says what the article and category are about. Clearly the article is not about the cultural heritage of Serbia but just certain protected sites. We would still need a general article on the Cultural heritage of Serbia. Searching is not a big help since we get the wiki mirrors and most hits are on 'cultural heritage of Serbia' as the general term. Most sources are in Serbian which I don't happen to be able to read, so for now no help there. I can live with Category:Listed cultural properties of Serbia if that is the consensus, but I don't know how that would work for the main article name. Vegaswikian (talk) 19:42, 15 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Category:Fictional characters debuts

See Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2010 November 10#Category:Fictional character debuts