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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by Dnkrumah (talk | contribs) at 10:58, 29 November 2010 (→‎Incident: Re). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

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Hamas casualties

This article[1] is interesting and sheds further light on Hamas' casualties. In an interview with al-Hayat, Hamas Interior Minister Fathi Hammad acknowledged that on the first day of war, Hamas lost 250 personnel. He further states that during the course of the war, as many as 300 additional members of the al Qassam brigades were killed and 150 other "security personnel" were killed as well. By Hamas' own acknowledgement, some 700 of its fighters were killed. This is in line with Israeli estimates. Israel confirmed that of those killed in Cast Lead, at least 709 were confirmed guerillas. I think we need to update the casualty figures to reflect the belated Hamas admission.--Jiujitsuguy (talk) 16:48, 1 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Here is a Haaretz source reporting the same. It would be great to get that Hayat source. "History will vindicate" us?--Metallurgist (talk) 17:50, 1 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Based on the sources, not only do they now admit to losing many more fighters than they previously acknowledged, they now acknowledge that the so-called policemen who were killed on the first day were actually Hamas gunmen. The article now requires a major overhaul to reflect these new developments and blows some serious holes in the Goldstone report--Jiujitsuguy (talk) 19:02, 1 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

here is another useful one from AFP. No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 22:01, 1 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Will this give more fuel to those who claim that casualties were not proportional? --Shuki (talk) 22:14, 1 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Excellent sources, particularly the one supplied by NMMNG from AFP. According to AFP the recent numbers supplied by Hamas roughly match the 709 "terror operatives" the Israeli military said it had killed during the fighting, which included members of the Hamas-run police force that has patrolled Gaza since the group seized power in 2007.--Jiujitsuguy (talk) 01:00, 2 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Maan News joins the fray. This is becoming a comedy.--Metallurgist (talk) 08:15, 2 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Under no circumstances should we be using the Jerusalem Post quoting another newspaper. Furthermore, even there the Hamas leader is quoted as saying "On the first day of the war, Israel targeted police stations and 250 martyrs who were part of Hamas and the various factions fell", which does not support Israel's case that they were legitimate targets - or even militants in their spare time. Very noticeable is that the POV tag has been removed from this article, when the whole thing is very POV indeed. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.102.15.200 (talk) 09:50, 2 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

All the sources quote almost, if not, exactly the same thing. I have provided the original article and a Google translation that appears to confirm what Israeli, Foreign, and PA sources say. What has been admitted is that the police were in fact part of Hamas and other terrorist/militant/whatever groups and thus legitimate targets.--Metallurgist (talk) 17:41, 2 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Adding in a paraphrased quote from the Hamas official should be easy enough. I was thinking about adding it to the Police subsection of disputed figures then realized that section was very long for what it was. It would get lost there. Should we trim that section? We could also simply add it to the end of it.Cptnono (talk) 19:16, 2 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
It should be added in any section that discusses casualties. It is very notable for two reasons. First, it demonstrates that IDF figures were accurate, per the AFP source. Second, it demonstrates that little if nothing Hamas says can be taken seriously. Remember, that after the fighting, Hamas acknowledged the deaths of only 48 of its personnel and now, is admitting that the figure was well over 10x that.--Jiujitsuguy (talk) 19:59, 2 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
First point is what I was getting at. Section 5.3.3?Cptnono (talk) 20:01, 2 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I had a look at the section you were referring to. I leave it to your capable hands.--Jiujitsuguy (talk) 20:05, 2 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Do we need to amend anything else (tables, other lines in the body, and so on)?Cptnono (talk) 20:17, 2 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Infobox and maybe a quick mention in the lead, if you're so inclined.--Jiujitsuguy (talk) 20:22, 2 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Metal, I read the articles but I don't see where Hamad admitted the police were legitimate targets. All I saw was that he said the police were "affiliated with" (Ma'an) "part of" (JPost) or "from" (AFP) Hamas and other groups. Only Haaretz, the only one which doesn't quote the man directly, says that Hamad said the police officers were "fighters". We've known that most members of the police were Hamas types since the start; the question is what their combatant status was. --JGGardiner (talk) 20:40, 2 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Do these two lines work?[2] I didn't really do it with much discussion so please feel free to ask if you want me to self revert.Cptnono (talk) 23:22, 2 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
We also need a line mentioning that he (and others if I recall correctly) say that 50 Israelis were killed.Cptnono (talk) 23:26, 2 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Not bad as a start but AFP broke it down this way. 250 "security personnel" identified as "martyrs" plus an additional 300 members of the al-Qassam Brigades, plus another 150 affiliated terrorist/militant groups for a grand total of 700. AFP stressed that this figure was more in line with the IDF figure of 709.--Jiujitsuguy (talk) 02:56, 3 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Proposed edit concerning recent Hamas admission:

  • Following the war, Hamas acknowledged the deaths of only 48 of its fighters. However, in November 2010, Hamas interior minister Fathi Hammad acknowledged that as many as 700 gunmen belonging to Hamas and affiliated factions were killed. His admission was consistent with Israeli estimates of at least 709 “terror operatives” killed during the operation. He also claimed that 50 Israelis were killed but offered no proof of the latter claim.

Comments and critiques are welcome--Jiujitsuguy (talk) 15:54, 3 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Seems OK to me.Slatersteven (talk) 15:59, 3 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
That version suggests that Hamad conflated the police with fighters (or "gunmen") whereas he actually listed them seperately and just notes that they were Hamas people who were killed. Otherwise it is good. --JGGardiner (talk) 23:47, 3 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
 Done Thanks for the input fellas. I've also incorporated the figure into the casualty chart and noted that the figure includes all gunmen, including members of the Hamas affiliated Internal Security Service--Jiujitsuguy (talk) 18:53, 5 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Part of me wants to remove this from the lead. It appears to be pointing fingers and WP:WORDS violation. Of course, I kind of like it since there are no rules in the I-P area regardless of the arbitration. Anyone want it to go or be reworded? If not, then sweet.Cptnono (talk) 05:11, 17 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Slim it maybe, but this is crucial to have. The whole article needs to be slimmed down. The problem is that we have two articles in one. But the Hamas confirmation of casualties should force us to reexamine the reliability of parts accusing Israel of atrocities and such. Even without that tho, a lot could be cut down or split off into subarticles.--Metallurgist (talk) 03:21, 26 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Hamas "Gunmen"

Hamas "gunmen" ??? I thought Hamas was a political organisation who won the last democratic election in Gaza. I guess that makes half the male population of Gaza automatically become "Hamas 'Gunmen' ", but with 240 women dead and 300 Children murdered, how did the accuracy on the 700 "Hamas 'gunmen' " suddenly become so painstakingly accurate??? This is beyond Chuthzpa. It's downright sickening Hitleresque propaganda. Who are the admins here??? May I suggest that people who are of Palestinian, Arab or Jewish descent excuse themselves and refrain from being admins here and that other wikipedia admins see to it that that happens so that this farce does not completely discredit wikipedia for the foreseeable future? No? Why will noone be surprised? Iguess we'll only invent new "guidlines" that support the loudest Orwellians around? And please, don't bother warning me with any of the courtesy crap after the endless series of complete intellectual dishonesty being supported and turned a blind eye to here. Even the term "War" is an insult to any thinking human beings' intelligence. As if the people of Guernika should be thought of as considering themselves at "war" with the pilots in the Nazi-germany bombers.. The level of ridiculousness becomes even more apparent if one ever were to expand the "google hits / search term numbers" argument into almost any other category, but I guess thats a level of abstarction that is lost on more than half of the species so I'll refrain from trying to teach any more reactionaries to make any more efforts 84.215.40.40 (talk) 06:34, 23 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Apologies for the revert. I completely read my watchlist wrong.
If you don't like "gunmen" then simply change it. The rest of your paragraph is shit that doesn't even warrant a response.Cptnono (talk) 08:45, 23 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]


It's amazing. I can bring up ten different valid points and not a single person bothers to discuss cases point by point in _any_ serious fashion. It's like staring into empty catatonic eyes that dont bat an eyelid when you point out the most glaringly obvious dishonesties. Instead I am met with threats on my userpage, personal attacks, anger and all kinds of bullshit concievable under the sky. Have you guys gone batshit insane? What does it take to get people to utilize their honesty? Pandering and groveling with niceties and begging? Well you can all forget that shit until the common decency of adressing the ISSUES and NOT, language, NOT person, NOT style, prose, courtesy, or any other infantile excuse to avoid the ISSUES. Is there anyone alive in here or is this page administered by the Israeli defense department and a "republican campaign committe to reelect"?? This is for posterity. I dont give a rats ass about your comments and complaints. Just start looking at the ISSUES. 84.215.40.40 (talk) 15:41, 24 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I guess you're not familiar with Wikipedia but nobody is on call to answer your questions. Sometimes questions are answered quickly but others take days, weeks or months. Sometimes they are never answered. It also helps if you just ask questions. If you throw around insults and allegations of Nazi-like bevahiour you make yourself look like a troll and most users won't bother with you. Wikipedia is a lot like real life that way.

Your questions also may not have been answered because the answers are mostly in the section above. But if you need some help with that: The 700 figure is not exact and should actually read 6-700. The numbers come from Fathi Hamad, the Interior Minister of Hamas/Gaza/Palestine. As I noted in that section Hamad broke down the numbers between police/security forces (400) and Al-Qassam fighters (2-300) and they shouldn't be lumped together. There are no admins assigned here, they all have general jurisdiction. They are unlikely to ban users from this article based on race. Though I'd be curious to see what happens if you ask. --JGGardiner (talk) 19:55, 24 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Who?

  1. Why was this tag added to one line but not the one right after it that logically has the same potential concern?[3]
  2. Critics include some bloggers, some leaders in Hamas, some writers, and so on and so on. Should we list everyone or is "critics" sufficient in an effort to not overbloat the lead?

Cptnono (talk) 21:04, 5 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Because the second 'critic' was quoted from as sorce "Colonel Richard Kemp". The first one only had "some critics". "Some" bloggers, "some" writers, etc, is not a reliable source. If you have a Hamas critic for that statement, then cite it and put it in. Dinkytown talk 21:14, 5 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
But if I provide the sources for the bloggers and writers then that should logically go in as well, correct? We also do have sources in the body instead of the lead which is acceptable per WP:LEAD. Since the line has been so problematic with sources that are questionable "critics" is an easy and correct fix. Cptnono (talk) 21:16, 5 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I'm sure that someone could find a quote from someone in the New York Times (or other venue) using the term "massacre". If that person is not a 'reliable' critic, then that could be hashed out later. "some critics" is WP:WEASEL. It would be easy enough to find that source. Dinkytown talk 21:39, 5 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
And they are in the body per WP:LEAD. But fine, lets remove the line. I hate it anyways.Cptnono (talk) 02:33, 12 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
But we can instead do this. LMFAO.Cptnono (talk) 04:44, 17 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Casualties table nb

Gaza_war#Casualties Can someone change the asterisks to nb tags or something? It looks clunky with the asterisks. I tried to do it myself, but it doesnt allow ref tags within the nb tags. Perhaps just remove the refs outright?--Metallurgist (talk) 04:32, 16 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

neermind, got it :) --Metallurgist (talk) 07:21, 26 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

"Grad" Rockets?

"Hamas and other militants have no BM-21 Grad launchers, but use 122 mm ammunition in small launchers."
From the Wiki page on Grad : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BM-21_Grad
84.215.40.40 (talk) 08:09, 22 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

That's a mistake in the grad page. Marokwitz (talk) 11:14, 22 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Of course there is. Sheeeesh.... 84.215.40.40 (talk) 05:51, 23 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

How do you explain this:

Please don't count other launchers in the operators list of the article “BM-21”, and please don't enter figures based on speculation at all. And sure as heck don't pull a number out of the air, and remove a “citation needed” tag from an article, as you did here. This is an encyclopedia based on verifiability, not a rumour mill. —Michael Z. 2009-01-08 20:18 z
This is getting out of hand. We now have several articles coming up in Google news searches which completely confound the BM-21 launcher with 122-mm ammunition (like this one which states that the 13-tonne “BM-21s weigh 150 pounds and are nine feet long”). It's important that we clarify, and not contribute to this confusion. Let's keep the article's nomenclature unambiguous.
* BM-21 and Grad are names for this mobile launcher
* 122-mm rockets are the ammunition fired from this and many other launchers, despite how sloppy the news writers are
Please avoid referring to “Grad rockets”, which confuses the two. —Michael Z. 2009-01-12 21:18 z

Did you just go to the wiki page on the Grad and change the information without citing a single accurate reference??? How dishonest is that? 84.215.40.40 (talk) 09:45, 23 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

The message by Michael Z. is incorrect. BM-21 and Grad are names of the mobile launcher AND the series of associated 122mm rockets. Feel free to read the sources that were added, and especially [4]. Marokwitz (talk) 11:58, 23 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

That's just what Michael Z is saying here. It seems like you hold some opinions that is clouding your vision / ability to interpret his text correctly. But the joker above has still not cited his sources for Hamas having Grad's in _either_ article. But I'm already too sick and disgusted with the level of dishoesty and threats around here. See you all next year. If I can stomach it.84.215.40.40 (talk) 12:49, 23 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not sure who is the "joker" you are referring to, but as the provided sources show, the name Grad refers to either the Grad truck based multi missile launcher (which Hamas apparently *don't* have) or the Grad rocket ammunition (which they *do* have and did use, possibly launched by the 9K132 "Grad-P" Single-round man-portable launcher, or a Chinese equivalent). There are reliable citations in the Grad article for Hamas having and using Chinese made Grad rockets. Marokwitz (talk) 13:18, 23 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I tend to agree with that. While "Grad" might be the name for the weapon system, the components of it might also be called Grad. This is what most of the sources do as well. As long as we say they are Grad rockets and not a Grad launcher, I think that's fine. I suppose we could say "Grad type rockets" or "122 mm rockets" but I don't think the distinction is that important here. The Chinese part was speculation as I recall. I'm more upset that we still say Israel has "Nagmash" APCs (linked to the M113) even though I found out quite a while ago and mentioned here that Nagmash is just the Hebrew word for APC. --JGGardiner (talk) 19:50, 24 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
The Chinese rockets are actually not a speculation, refer to the sources in the Grad article.Marokwitz (talk) 06:26, 26 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Incident

This was problematic enough that I removed it. Changing rank while ignoring the source, grammar, focus on one incident, and so on were the deciding factors. Propose a draft or take it to another article. Furthermore, there are a handful of incidents in and not in that could be mentioned but they need to be handled with care since it is obvious that only some are in while others are ignored.Cptnono (talk) 11:48, 26 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

--I have reverted the article back to my edit. This is due to the fact that the information deleted by you was already present in the article but was outdated. The information stated before my edit that the soldiers were charged but gave no details. I added information detailing the incident, the names of the victims the charges and the conviction. The article also stated they were demoted from First sergeant to sergeant. Unless you have some evidence by credible link that any of this information is incorrect or that this is not the case or the citations are incorrect please stop your biased moderation and what I consider Vandalism. Da'oud Nkrumah (talk) 12:41, 26 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

---It further really looks like you just attempted to delete some information you didn't like. I also added information about the judge charging the IDF with manslaughter. This is current information and updated the section with factual, current information. Da'oud Nkrumah (talk) 12:50, 26 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Setting aside the comments about bias and vandalism, I don't think this material qualifies for inclusion unless it is made clear why it's important. Here are some sources that might help to show why these cases are notable within the context of OCL and beyond.
  • JPost
    • "one of the most high-profile criminal cases from Operation Cast Lead"
    • "Military prosecutors had requested that the court impose lengthy prison sentences and demote them to the rank of private for violating the boy’s human rights and the IDF’s code of “purity of arms.”"
    • "The IDF probe was opened based on information in a report compiled by a special UN representative appointed to investigate matters involving children and armed conflict"
  • BBC "It was reportedly the first such conviction in Israel, where the use of civilians as human shields is banned."
  • Bloomberg Comment by HRW "“Under the laws of war, using civilians as human shields is a war crime,” Bill Van Esveld, an Israel-based researcher for Human Rights Watch, said in a phone interview. “It is hard to see how a demotion and a short suspended sentence are adequate to the gravity of that offense.”"
Sean.hoyland - talk 13:07, 26 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Also Da'oud, be careful about the 1RR restriction on this article described at the top of the talk page. You've made one revert so that is your limit for 24 hours. Sean.hoyland - talk 13:12, 26 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you for the information Sean. I want to make clear that this information was already in the article. I only added recent facts detailing the convictions and the sentencing and in the second matter (manslaughter charges for the two deaths) I detailed that the investigation and question had in fact turned into manslaughter charges. I will follow the rules of Wikipedia and the community of course. I will edit the information to show its notability.Da'oud Nkrumah (talk) 13:20, 26 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
On another matter. Several of the sources differ as to the actual rank of the Israeli soldiers. Bloomberg for instance states they were Staff sergeants while Al Jezeera states they were First sergeants. I notice Israel Defense Forces states the rank as First Sergeant so I will go with Al Jezeera as correct. I am not sure on this so if anyone has additional insight...Da'oud Nkrumah (talk) 14:04, 26 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
You classified a rather substantive edit as "minor" and that's not only misleading and disingenuous, it's disrespectful to other editors who assume that the edit involves a spelling mistake or some other minor correction. In addition, your edit can be substantially shortened. This article is large enough as is without additional fluff that can be summed up with one brief sentence.--Jiujitsuguy (talk) 14:11, 26 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Suggest that someone propose a draft that's brief, concise and with a neutral dispassionate tone that one would expect from an encyclopedia.--Jiujitsuguy (talk) 14:59, 26 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Exactly. A simple draft was all that as needed instead of accusations of IDONTLIKEIT. In regards to rank, if sources contradict just use "soldiers" or "NCOs", or something. And of course: WP:BRD.Cptnono (talk) 21:41, 26 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
You are not going to remove the section. Especially considering that this info is in a section of the article on Accusations of Misconduct by the IDF. This is the conviction of two IDF soldiers of a war crime. It is the first conviction of its kind in Israeli history, the highest profile trial of its kind and this information was already present in the section with outdated information saying they were charged before I added the facts of conviction and sentencing.
You are not removing the facts which as they now stand are absolutely relevant and NPOV. Two IDF soldiers being convicted of a war crime is certainly more relevant then the preceding paragraph where there is an entire paragraph with a IDF soldiers saying the only Gazan human shields were those used by Hamas. That is probably why this information was present in the article to begin with. Sorry you don't like the facts but they are facts. It further balances all the claims throughout the article that the IDF are completely innocent and devoid of any type of misconduct. If you want to condense the article you should start with some of that.
In the last section I corrected that. It was two deaths not one. Also the soldier charged admitted to firing on a woman so this statement that the investigators couldn't determine... is false and misleading. Da'oud Nkrumah (talk) 23:43, 26 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
So I assume this is your proposal?[5] Seems too long to me. Can you trim a couple lines? Cptnono (talk) 19:25, 27 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I condensed it with the help of another editor and added to article. The last third paragraph was returned per my draft so it matched the source which stated two women were killed and that the soldier admitted shooting at one woman. I have found some spelling and grammar errors in other parts of the article, which I am working on Da'oud Nkrumah (talk) 10:57, 29 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

to section implementation?

http://cablegate.wikileaks.org/cable/2008/10/08STATE116392.html Collecting info on vehicles used by Palestinian leadership may not have any relation with subsequent targeting vehicles from air. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.90.197.244 (talk) 08:18, 29 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

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