Wikipedia talk:Featured article criteria

References

This article incorporates text from a publication now in the public domain: Chisholm, Hugh, ed. (1911). Encyclopædia Britannica (11th ed.). Cambridge University Press. {{cite encyclopedia}}: Missing or empty |title= (help)</source>|source=wikitext for an even worse article than it was before}}

Right problem. Wrong method for correction.

The problem is, quite rightly, that if an article is largely based upon EB1911, Federal Standard 1037C, or the Free On-line Dictionary of Computing, and so forth, it's not our best work. It's someone else's work, that we used as a quick shortcut to getting an encyclopaedia article. And we have long-standing cleanup projects (Wikipedia:EB1911 Wikipedia:Federal Standard 1037C terms Wikipedia:Status of FOLDOC import) that quite explicitly note the problems that result: out-of-date information, information not systematized in the way that we systematize things, excessively colloquial prose with folkloric definitions, and so forth. (Notice that Ousterhout's dichotomy (AfD discussion) has in part been nominated for deletion because the original FOLDOC prose isn't up to our standards.)

The right answer is not to put things into blockquotes and quotations. That makes for even worse encyclopaedia articles. (See ⇒.) The right answer is to use the sources as we would use any sources. Witness Online and offline (AfD discussion). It started as a straight copy of FS1037C. In fact, it used to be off-line and we used to have a separate on-line article, also a straight copy of FS1037C. (We also used to have Online (AfD discussion).) It still contains the FS1037C definitions, with a {{FS1037C MS188}} in the References section. (Unfortunately, the templates that we have for EB1911, FOLDOC, and FS1037C don't make for very good citations, and the general-purpose citation templates don't note the public domain status of the prose copied.) But FS1937C is used as a source, one of several, for the standard industry definitions that are then expanded upon with encyclopaedic discussion of the concepts so defined.

So public domain prose (purporting to be actual explicatory content) in an FA-worthy article must be at minimum, I would suggest, (a) attributed to its source (possibly using one of the many templates that we have), (b) not the majority of the article (so that the majority is "our (best) work"), (c) used just as any other source would be used, and (d) placed into context if the information is outdated or biased. In other words: All of the things that the various cleanup projects have been warning about for years as cleanup issues for such imported content before it can be said to meet our standards must be addressed.

In other other words: An article that isn't by an overwhelming margin our best work, and which we haven't done our cleanup work on, is not featurable ours.

Uncle G (talk) 21:54, 9 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you. That is the very point originally made waaaaay back in archives when we first discussed this, but the language got watered down. If an article is a copy of a PD source, how can it be "our best work"? That was the original aim of adding 1f-- perhaps someone can read all three of those archives. I've been spending a lot of time trying to shephard some solutions and making little progress :/ :/ SandyGeorgia (Talk) 22:31, 9 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- I'm certain there needs to be a 1f, but I'm still chewing on what exactly it should convey. Copying from a PD source is still plagiarism without attribution (and I don't the PD text template counts for much) and at the least, a 1a violation in my mind. But, better to head it off at the pass. --Andy Walsh (talk) 23:08, 9 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  - There are multiple versions back in archives-- we tried to do something back in the beginning of the year, before the TFA debacle. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 23:19, 9 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- I think the conception of our work as "a project to build free encyclopedias in all languages of the world [here, English]" allows for the use of externally written content, in the same manner as we use PD images, later enhanced and edited by Wikipedians, to improve the articles we present to our readers. The generation of original prose, per se, is not part of the mission. In my mind, the featured article criteria should be centered around the question, is the reader experience being maximized? Knowing that the author of a piece of text was a Wikipedia writer isn't in my view something a reader would care about at all. In short, this project is about encyclopedia building, not writing, and we should be rewarding encyclopedia building, not writing, to the extent the two don't overlap.
  That said, all articles using PD text need to follow whatever ground rules are set up for appropriate attribution. These rules belong at the apply-to-all articles level, not just the apply-to-FA level. Christopher Parham (talk) 02:12, 10 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  - Didn't you notice that we've just had a bit of a contretemps with respect to the main page being thought of as a reward? Should I invite the DYK regulars to come and educate the FAC people out of your reward culture? ☺
    The generation of original prose very much is part of our mission. Go and read foundation:Mission statement for the reason that the Foundation provides the wikis to us in the first place and what we're supposed to be doing with them. We're here to "develop" free content as well as just collect it. As it does to Wiktionary, Wikibooks, and Wikinews, that notion applies to Wikipedia. We're here to be a source of free content for others to re-use. Ironically, all of the people who are copying and pasting non-free content into Wikipedia all of the time — because they think that the goal is building an encyclopaedia by any means, even wholesale ganking of things that they aren't permitted to copy, modify, and republish — are the antithesis of working towards our goal. We're here to create free content, that the rest of the world can take from us, not to take non-free content from the rest of the world. We're here to be a source, not a sink.
    After all, if people want the 1911 Britannica (or FOLDOC, or FS1037C, or the others for that matter), they don't need the Wikipedia project to regurgitate it verbatim for them. It's right there already, and has been for quite some time.
    Uncle G (talk) 03:51, 10 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    - The fact that the mission statement reads "to collect and develop" seems to support my point. There's no basis there for seeing development as fundametally superior to collection. Collection is a coequal part of "our work". I'm unclear on why you bring up the ganking of things people aren't permitted to use. It's not relevant here and already a valid basis for objecting to featured status. The point of contention is whether articles which employ free content validly (under the policies of the English Wikipedia, whatever they may be in the future) should be rejected from featured status. Christopher Parham (talk) 05:13, 10 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
      - Of course there's a basis. I just stated it. If people want regurgitating collection only, this project has no raison d'être. The development is our raison d'être. If you don't understand why the filching of non-free content is mentioned, by the way, I recommend reading about 600KiB of past discussion since 2010-10-31. Alas! At this point you've got a lot of catching up to do if you haven't been following the context that has caused this to be raised as an issue again. ☺ Uncle G (talk) 12:59, 10 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
        If an entire article consists of literally a character-for-character paste of an outside source, with no additonal development in the form of markup, editing, or wikification, then fine, it's likely not featured material. But "collecting and developing" is a clear part of the mission, not "developing from scratch" alone. As for non-free content, it's a side issue in this discussion even if it's what prompted the proposal. I, and the proposed criterion, speak exclusively to free content. If people want to make in the featured article criteria a redundant point about non-free content, they are welcome. But the proposed 1(f) is specifically about restricting free content, and says nothing about non-free content. Christopher Parham (talk) 18:21, 10 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
        I hope people are reading thoroughly; we have FAs where entire sections are taken almost directly from PD sources. I thought that's why we were having this discussion. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 20:20, 10 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
        But there's clearly been "development" (whether markup, copyediting, wikification, or incorporation with other material into a single article) to create the finished product. Christopher Parham (talk) 20:27, 10 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I would think that our general article criteria (not just FAC) would disallow wholesale inclusion of PD works, period, even if attributed or marked up. WP:NPS is what covers this for all articles. --MASEM (t) 14:33, 10 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Most all of the PD articles are not primary sources, but PD secondary sources - PD encyclopedias or government produced papers or articles. I think the more relevant guideline is probably WP:PLAGIARISM, along with the content freedom policies. Christopher Parham (talk) 18:21, 10 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I dunno, I read that as saying that whether the PD work is primary or secondary or tertiary, you don't include these wholesale in WP. --MASEM (t) 20:15, 10 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

When we started developing the plagiarism (now) guideline, we discussed this quite extensively, including the fact that a huge number of articles began their life as EB1911 copies. The consensus then, which I don't think has changed was that a: copying of PD/free text is quite OK; and b: use of an attribution template like {{EB1911}} was sufficient for the purpose. An extension of the {{cite}} templates was also developed to indicate in a footnote "is copied directly from...". As to whether these copied materials can be featured content, that's the question being discussed here. Franamax (talk) 20:37, 10 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

That is the question, yes :) SandyGeorgia (Talk) 20:39, 10 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

A question to ask seems to be "What %age of the WP article text is taken verbatim from PD sources (with or without attribution)?" An article that is 90% PD text is likely inappropriate, while an article that is 10% PD is likely ok. But it also depends on the nature of the text included and the attribution aspects. --MASEM (t) 22:23, 10 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

They do not: we have many such FAs. I gave one sample at the beginning of this section. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 20:22, 10 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I'm confused a bit here, first are you talking about Geology of the Lassen volcanic area? and is this an article that is a problem (borrowing too heavily from PD) or actually ok? --MASEM (t) 20:39, 10 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I think clearly a problem. The whole para:

Meanwhile, toward the end of this activity, eruptions of a different kind took place on an unprecedented scale in eastern Oregon and Washington. From innumerable cracks, floods of highly fluid basaltic lava spread to cover an area of over 200,000 square miles. Known as the Columbian Plateau, this great lava bed covers much of Oregon, Washington and even parts of Idaho. California's Modoc Plateau is a thinner basaltic flow which some associate with the Columbia Plateau, but there are technical objections to this. This activity also continued until 11 or 12 million years ago when the High Cascades took shape as a distinct mountain belt as a result of the upheaval and bending of the thick blanket of volcanic rocks. As a result of this upheaval, many features opened near the crust, and during the next 10 million years, a series of new basaltic volcanic cones similar to those now found in Hawaii were built.

is word for word from the note 1 source, with the addition of one word "Now". Incidentally the last bit does not even give the citation. Much/most of the article is like this. I don't have a problem with articles like this, which is mostly properly cited, but I don't think they should be FAs. I note that in the FAC one editor (KP Botany) who appeared to have good geological knowledge opposed strenuously saying that some of the bits that weren't PD stuff were wrong, though unfortunately he kept disappearing from the FAC. Johnbod (talk) 01:46, 11 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Change of description of FA criteria

WP is a collaborative effort: we mix the contributions of many editors in different articles, but it is also true that many articles come from mainly a single editor: when we use PD texts we are only including one further editor in our collaborative effort. It makes no difference if he/she actually has a WP account or not, is dead or alive. The important thing is to create high quality content, and if PD allows that then even better: we are always lacking editors so if we "finish" easy with an article thanks to the effort previously done by somebody in a PD text then we can move on to improve other articles.

By this exact discussion we should forbid to copy text from one WP article into another: what is the difference between copying (and attributting) text from another WP article and a PD source?: I believe only the number of editors-authors. Similarly if the proposal being discussed here is finally approved we should also forbid any Featured Pictures which are not "own work" by WP editors with an account, since content comes from an outside source and it is not "our work". That should also include all historical images even if they have been copy-edited by WP, since attributtion to original source seems not enough per discussion above. Maybe we should simply change the description of FAs to state that FA are "the best work in WP" instead "of our best work".

On the other hand we forbid single editors to "own" an article, and in the same way WP as a collective does not "own" articles per its copyright license (since anybody can do whatever they want with them). How can we then decide when an article is "our" or not?. We do not own any articles independently of whether they include PD text or not. --Garrondo (talk) 07:43, 10 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Actually FA description does not say "our work": right now it says: Featured articles are considered to be the best articles in Wikipedia(bold is mine): This only occurs in FA criteria .--Garrondo (talk) 07:50, 10 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Per my comment above and to be in compliance with the description of the FA page I propose to change first line of FA criteria to: A featured article exemplifies the very best work in Wikipedia and is distinguished by professional standards of writing, presentation, and sourcing.--Garrondo (talk) 07:50, 10 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

As I may have mentioned once or twice before, I'd happily do away with that preamble altogether, or if we need to have one just have "A featured article exemplifies the best work on Wikipedia". "Professional standard" is meaningless; as anyone who's ever read a technical journal can attest, a lot of professional writing is jargon-laden and horribly ploddingly written. (These people are researchers, not writers, after all.) – iridescent 20:45, 10 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, but professional standards are relative; in this case, we are referring to professional standards of encyclopedias and so forth. —Deckiller (t-c-l) 01:50, 11 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

"Neutral" sub criteria redundant?

In the introduction to the criteria, we already stress that FAs must adhere to WP policies; "NPOV" is a policy. Are we keeping the "neutral" sub criteria as emphasis? If not, we can probably trim it out. —Deckiller (t-c-l) 15:25, 25 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Any thoughts, or am I coming across as an over-thinking loon? —Deckiller (t-c-l) 02:43, 1 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

It is indeed redundant—I'm assuming it was added at some point to give reviewers a handy way to oppose POV articles, but who knows. --Andy Walsh (talk) 03:32, 1 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I'd not like to lose it, since the 1a, b, c, d etc have been stable for so long. And when I reviewed articles, I checked the article talk page archives for past POV disputes, as well as doing some source checking-- it would be nice to see more POV checks at FAC. It would so be strange to leave NPOV out: of the Wikipedia:Five pillars, there are three content issues (verifiability, neutrality, and free content) that we check at FAC, and leaving out one of them, while the other two are mentioned, doesn't seem to make sense. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 04:21, 1 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

To redlink or not to redlink, that is the question

How "bad" is it to have red-links in an FAC? I am not asking just what the per se "rule" is, but "how things really go down" or "what the majority of reviewers/readers prefer"? The MOS guidance is (reasonably) permissive of redlinks on things that are likely, or could reasonably become articles. Some of the "how to FA essays" floating around say not to redlink as it raises eyebrows. I am really cool either way, no bigge, just want to know, I guess how much hair it raises to have some redlinks?

I actually keep a little list of all the articles I intend to start in my sandbox, so I could totally just do away with the redlinks. Of course, then you all lose the possibility someone else might build the article. And of course, someone might never build it too!

P.s. what is the most active talk page to ask FA questions like this? I been hanging at MOS forum a lot, but some of my questions are more FA related than MOS.

TCO (talk) 22:11, 18 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I've never held a reasonable number of likely redlinks against an FAC. If every other word was a redlink, that'd be an issue, but as long as the links are likely to be turned into articles, it's not an issue to me. Ealdgyth - Talk 22:14, 18 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Red links, even lots of them are no longer considered to be an issue. Regards, SunCreator ^(talk) 22:16, 18 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Moreover, a study indicated that they were good for article creation (Do not have the citation right now).--Garrondo (talk) 22:17, 21 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Minimum size for FAs?

During the FAC for Salanoia durrelli, a recently-discovered mongoose, User:J Milburn brought up the concern that not enough is known about the subject for it to be an FA. His concern stemmed from the fact that only a handful of articles have been published about the critter since its discovery, and several aspects of its behavior are left to speculation. After a brief discussion on the matter, it was quickly realized that this issue would be better addressed somewhere other than one individual FAC. Here is the aformentioned discussion:

Transcribed discussion

It's well written and researched, but I worry that not enough is known about this species yet. There is a fair amount of speculation in the article; guesses about what it eats, for instance. Futher, there is limited research on the species at this time; the descriptions come from only two specimens. There is a mention of the fact the locals knew about the species; perhaps there's a story to tell there? Precisely where is it found? Reproduction is not mentioned- presumably because nothing is known. I guess I'm not criticising the article, I'm saying that perhaps there has not yet been enough research on the topic to justify a FA. Sorry. J Milburn (talk) 21:15, 19 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I understand your point—I'd hardly want for something like Veratalpa to become an FA—but I don't think this one has insufficient information. (If consensus is otherwise, I'm fine with that.) Virtually all species are poorly known (more poorly than this one, quite likely). If more is published about S. durrelli in the future, it can (and will) be incorporated into the article. I've written several FAs on animals that we know less about, not only fossils like Ambondro mahabo, but also living species like Eremoryzomys. Ucucha 21:33, 19 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

In my opinion, any short article is eligible for FA so long as the most basic questions about the subject can be answered and sourced. In the case of critters, those questions might be "What does it eat?" "Where does it live?" "What does it look like?" "Is it endangered?" "When was it discovered?", all of which have been answered. --Cryptic C62 · Talk 01:42, 20 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Interesting, but it could be argued that those questions perhaps aren't answered. Its diet is only speculated, its habitat and range is not fully known (being judged from only a few collections), the same is true of the appearance. I would agree with what you're saying if you were talking about GAs; while a GA has to be "broad", a FAC has to be "comprehensive". There remain questions unanswered- reproduction? Lifespan? Behaviour? Relation to humans? And there remain questions that could be expanded upon, and perhaps will be with further research. I'm not opposing as such, I guess this FAC just raises questions about the nature of FAs. This seems to me to be a fantastic GA, but perhaps not a great FA. I believe I am right in saying that the GA project started out with just this issue in mind; articles can be excellent, but on subjects on which there is not enough material to warrant a featured article. J Milburn (talk) 18:32, 20 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I would interpret "comprehensive" as meaning "covering everything we know", not "covering everything we could know". The article on the marsh rice rat, for example, does not say how many genes the animal has, a fairly basic biological fact which is not known of this species (as of most others), and I hope you agree that it is comprehensive. Ucucha 21:31, 20 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

The trouble with that definition would be that there are subjects on which very little is known- some historical figures, mythological figures, distant stars, obscure species (especially those which are extinct- you know more about that than me!) and so on. I expect we would not be promoting 2,500 byte articles on those subjects to FA status. The line needs be drawn somewhere. J Milburn (talk) 22:30, 20 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Miniopterus zapfei? The line must needs be drawn somewhere, I agree, but I think we've recently promoted on subjects that we know about as little about, or perhaps less: Miniopterus aelleni, for example, and Eremoryzomys (which I mentioned already), Euryoryzomys emmonsae, Miss Meyers, Cryptoprocta spelea. Ucucha 23:56, 20 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

<-- Interesting discussion. I think if we go strictly on the FAC criteria, Ucucha's short articles, sometimes based largely on a single major publication, meet all the criteria (and I have said this several times in my previous supports). But theoretically, this opens the door to a flood of very short FAC candidates on subjects that are inherently notable (like species) but do not have a lot written about them. I think if we consider the examples of short FACs that Ucucha has given, the FAC-reviewing community has generally approved of the idea that short articles can be eligible for FA status (and I recall talk page discussions about this as well). But there does need to be a line drawn somewhere, right? Perhaps broader talk page discussion is warranted (so as to not overwhelm this FAC)? Sasata (talk) 03:26, 21 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Here are some of the key points and questions brought up in the discussion:

The current featured article criteria do not require any minimum size.
Does "comprehensive" mean "covering everything we know" or "covering everything we could know"?
Basic questions about the subject should be answered for the reader, and if these answers aren't available in the sources, then perhaps the article shouldn't be an FAC.

Any thoughts? --Cryptic C62 · Talk 16:47, 21 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

The mongoose at least has an advantage over Ælle of Sussex: "The information about him is so limited that it cannot be said with certainty that Ælle existed." But then we can be pretty sure nothing very significant is going to emerge about him in the future (short of the very long-shot of a burial). He is I think also still the shortest FA. Generally precedents favour short but complete articles being accepted, but here the situation may be different as significant new information can presumably be expected to emerge within a few years. Johnbod (talk) 17:02, 21 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

(side note) Ælle of Sussex (12 kB) is an interesting an example, but it is definitely not the shortest FA. A quick glance at User:Juliancolton's trophy case shows many FAs which are significantly shorter. Tropical Depression Ten (2005) is a mere 4kB long! --Cryptic C62 · Talk 17:08, 21 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Ok, I did wonder about the stiff breezes. I think Aelle was the shortest in his day, which shows how things can change. I think some breeze/road articles would not be passed today. Johnbod (talk) 17:17, 21 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

IMO any article can be a FA at a time point: if it covers everything we know on something then that is a FA now... A featured article is no more no less than the best we can do on a notable topic, if the best we can do is short because the topic is not fully known that is as good as the biggest article (Which does not mean that one is not easier to take to FA than other). At most if the knowledge on a topic changes and the articles does not then it should be demoted. Philosophically speaking: how can we decide if "we know enough now" or "not enough yet" about something?... Going to the extreme we could end in not featuring anything in scientific topics in which there is some ongoing research since knowledge is transient and we do not know enough yet as we do not know everything...--Garrondo (talk) 18:37, 21 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

This has been discussed at great length before; the most comprehensive discussion I'm aware of takes up two full FAC archives, here and here. As a test case I submitted Space Science Fiction Magazine to FAC; it would have been about half the length of the current shortest FA. It was not promoted, and I think it was the correct decision; I would interpret that decision as saying that a short article that can legitimately be seen as part of a possible larger article may be denied consensus to promote. Mike Christie (talk – library) 23:09, 21 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for those links Mike; seems like everything I was going to say about the subject has been said by someone else already :) It looks like "the line" is firmly in a gray area that simply needs to be assessed on a case-by-case basis. Sasata (talk) 23:50, 21 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry I missed this discussion until now. This is all very interesting- I'm really not sure where I stand on the matter. I would like to say that I do not oppose the mongoose article, it was merely a thought that cropped up. I think there could perhaps be a distinction between topics that not much is known about (Ælle of Sussex) compared to topics that not much is written about (the magazine). There is also the point that there are a number of different opinions from historians on Ælle of Sussex, which makes for an interesting article. On, say, an obscure species, there may not be views beyond those of the discoverer. Cryptic, I agree with your claim that "Basic questions about the subject should be answered for the reader, and if these answers aren't available in the sources, then perhaps the article shouldn't be an FAC" with the possible caveat of when there is a good reason these things aren't known. If, for example, we do not have the date of birth of a person, but we do have a few sources noting that the DOB is not known for reason x, that should not preclude it from being a featured article. If the DOB is just not known, and no sources bother to mention or even guess at it, then yeah, we may have a problem. (DOB may not be the best example, but I'm sure you understand my point.) J Milburn (talk) 20:54, 22 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

It's true that this has been discussed at length without consensus, so I doubt anything dramatic will be decided here; that said, I find it very hard to avoid commenting when I have an opinion, so here goes. To me, it seems wrong that an article could be unimprovable (that is, it contains everything known about a topic and is written as perfectly as possible) and yet there's no way of recognising this. Wikipedia works off sources, so if little has been written about a topic, the article will be short - this means that complaining that an article is too short is really a complaint against the human race for not knowing enough. I can understand not putting such an article on the front page, but I would certainly support some way of recognising a comprehensive well-written short article - either as a regular FA or some new kind of "short FA". (Slight aside: I also disagree that it doesn't represent our "best work". It doesn't represent our "hardest" or "most complex" or "longest" best work, but it is still a piece of work that is the best it can be.) Trebor (talk) 21:15, 22 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Is that "new kind" of short FA not exactly what GA started out as? J Milburn (talk) 01:29, 23 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Was it? I didn't know that. It's certainly not what it ended up as... Trebor (talk) 11:25, 23 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

This came up at FAC a while ago Fasach Nua (talk) 06:49, 25 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

max size?

Talk to me, mighty ones, por favor. I have read some of the stuff at "how to FA" articles, but it can be dated or wrong. Want to know what the reviewers say. And I'm not asking "what's easier to write to FA standar", but at what point people think the article needs to have subpages because you "just don't like it from being long". Also do those have to be FA standard themselves if an article has them?) Gracias!TCO (talk) 17:27, 21 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

And I'm not asking what the "rules say" or to debate them. I just want to know what is desired and conform.TCO (talk) 17:34, 21 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Depends on the article subject. User:Dr pda/Featured article statistics may be useful to you. Ed ^{[talk] [majestic titan]} 17:39, 21 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

It's an animal. I left that fellow a question. Seems like a lot of the animals are short, although Lion is pretty long. Also, not sure how kb is really calculated (like do refs get included?)

State of subpages does not affect the article at FAC as far as I know. Regarding size, it really depends on topic, writing style, what other sources usually do... --Garrondo (talk) 18:46, 21 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I guess you're thinking about painted turtle? It comes in at

   * File size: 272 kB
   * Prose size (including all HTML code): 49 kB
   * References (including all HTML code): 13 kB
   * Wiki text: 72 kB
   * Prose size (text only): 30 kB (4962 words) "readable prose size"
   * References (text only): 839 B

according to Dr pda's script. The significant figure is the prose size of 30kB. A good rule of thumb according to WP:Article Size is to consider sub-pages at somewhere around 50kB of readable prose, so there's no problem with the size of painted turtle. Malleus Fatuorum 20:04, 21 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Joy! If we have to make them, we can do so, but obviously is more work and content gets into different places. We will try to keep the writing good and have a clear sectioning organization so that readers can go "where they want to read". TCO (talk) 20:08, 21 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

By my usual "copy and paste into Word" method I get 38k. Don't think anyone will have any issue with its length at FAC. The Land (talk) 20:19, 21 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Copy and paste the best method here. Had the same questioning at the WP:HELPDESK yesterday. The User:Dr pda/prosesize.js tool misses the bulleted lists and undercounts the prose size. Regards, SunCreator ^(talk) 23:28, 21 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I've noticed that issue with the User:Dr pda/prosesize.js tool too. Not only does it not count blockquotes and bulleted lists, it seems to count footnote text too, though footnote text is never highlighted. This version of this article, for example, is 42 kB (7198 words) readable prose size. I wanted to reduce the word count, so I moved some quotes into footnotes. [1] This actually increased the word count to 43 kB (7294 words). [2] Another example on the same article: this version is 7299 words. I moved a blockquote into a footnote, [3] and the word count increased to 7335. [4] SlimVirgin ^{talk|contribs} 05:39, 23 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Regarding not counting bulleted lists see my replies for example on User talk:Dr pda/prosesize.js, or even the script documentation from 2006 at User:Dr_pda/prosesize. Re not counting blockquotes see the reply I gave SlimVirgin a year ago :) at User talk:Dr pda#Prose size script. Obviously I haven't had time to implement anything. Re the footnotes, I've not encountered that before. I'll see if I can find time over the Christmas holidays to investigate/fix this. Dr pda (talk) 07:34, 24 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Hi, I've had a chance to have a look at my script. Re the increase in word count observed by SlimVirgin, the above diffs show that that number of words was actually added to the main text in addition to things being moved to the footnotes. Re the footnote text, the prose size script does not count the footnotes in the readable prose; this change to the References extension broke the part of the script which calculates the reference text size, which is why it did not appear to change for SlimVirgin's tests. I have fixed this issue, and also modified the script so it now counts blockquotes too. Bulleted lists are non-trivial to implement, so I haven't done that yet. I have also not yet investigated the alleged undercounting of prose size. Dr pda (talk) 08:34, 9 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Featured articles and inline citations

In the discussion at Wikipedia_talk:Citing_sources#On_citing_every_sentence I make a claim that modern day FAs require that all sentences (barring obvious case) require an inline citation. Some editors disagree. Perhaps some FA writers and reviewers would like to chip in there? --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk} 18:14, 18 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I think really getting deep into a topic, you tend to have sentences and even parts of sentences that borrow from different sources. And this is good and is part of the value add of the synthetic (meant in the good sense) work of an article writer. That said, I think that sometimes it is pretty obvious if two sentences or even a para discuss the same thing and having a ref that backstops both (or the para) makes sense, rather than just putting the (same) named ref on each sentence in succession. Also, an obvious example is topic sentences and some other types of transitions, where a ref is not needed. Also there are some obvious examples, a plot summary, or a para on a critical interpretation, where it's obvious that only one source was consulted (or is primary), so why litter the para with a bunch of duplication?

Perhaps to drive the discussion to deeper insight, you could call out some specific examples?TCO (talk) 18:53, 18 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Ridiculous. Malleus Fatuorum 19:18, 18 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Too much blue ink to cite every sentence. If an entire para summarizes an acceptable page range in a book, or an entire on-line article, there's absolutely no reason to repeat the cite over and over. Refs are placed to cite the material directly in front, whether a single sentence or five or even ten sentences. This, by the way, is acceptable to MLA style. Truthkeeper88 (talk) 19:22, 18 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

There is unfortunately prolly a cadre of such who adhere to WP:V in such a ludicrous fashion, but any level-headed editor can see that you cite as little as necessary. If it needs a citation, you cite it, and you try to keep the ref calls down as much as you can without making it unclear where something came from. Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs^(talk) 19:31, 18 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]