Talk:The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints

Argument against classification as 'Christian'

I know that a lot of believers coming from the LDS movement believe themselves to be Christian, but outsiders looking don't agree with that concept. It would be similar to saying that Muslims and Christians are Jewish simply because both groups find the Torah as a sacred text. However, both groups have totally different additions that make them distinctively no longer Jewish, New Testament (Greek Testament) with the Christians and the Q'uran with the Muslims. Likewise, Mormonism has an additional sacred text in the Book of Mormon that distinctively branches out from Christianity with varying beliefs sufficient enough to no longer be labeled as Christian.

Take into further account that the group believes in multiple gods, Jesus and Satan were spirit brothers, and that Jesus is not God having become man, then it is clear that there is enough of a difference for it to be considered something different than the religion that it was inspired by. --GK 15:48, 21 March 2010 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Gk digital defener (talk • contribs)

Please see the definition of 'Christian': "a religious person who believes Jesus is the Christ." The number of texts (additional or otherwise) believed to be holy writ is irrelevant. All other points you mention are also irrelevant. The only criteria is whether the individual, or group in this case, believes Jesus to be the Christ. The Mormons do, and, ergo, are Christians. Besides, 'cult' is defined as: "followers of an exclusive system of religious beliefs and practices", something that could be applied to pretty much any group you can think of. Useight (talk) 20:14, 21 March 2010 (UTC)

This topic of discussion is not new. Please see archive 14 for most of my thoughts on the issue, and plenty of discussion and links to previous discussions. In a nutshell, I feel that using "restorationist Christian" solves all problems here. ...but what do you think? ~BFizz 21:32, 21 March 2010 (UTC)

Although a few Christian evangelical groups do not classify Mormonism within Christianity, the majority of denominations, including Catholicism and the mainline Protestant churches, are not quite so rude, and classify Mormonism outside of "traditional" Christianity. Christianity is unlike the term Judaism, because Christians themselves make no claim to Judah, and don't care whether they are identified with the Biblical Hebrews. Mormons, on the other hand, make a claim to Jesus, and by Mormons' own terms, they are Christian. Nobody can dispute that Mormonism began squarely within the discourses of traditional American Christianity. You could say that by 1844, Mormonism evolved into something a step beyond traditional Christianity, but there's not much within Mormonism that couldn't be found somewhere within the extremely diverse and wildly-experimental early Christian era. COGDEN 22:05, 21 March 2010 (UTC)

To say that only a "few Christian evangelical groups do not classify Mormonism within Christianity, the majority of denominations, including Catholicism and the mainline Protestant churches, are not quite so rude, and classify Mormonism outside of "traditional" Christianity." is a vast misrepresentation. The World Council of Churches specifically recognizes the LDS faith as non-Christian. This represents a vast majority of all churches everywhere in the world including Roman Catholic, Protestant, and Orthodox. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.3.199.238 (talk) 17:29, 14 August 2010 (UTC)

Re: World Council of Churches stance - do you have a source for the WCC's stance on the issue? The one reference I could find from them seems to indicate that they consider the LDS to be a Christian Church (see [1], pg 37 where the LDS is listed as an example of "Other Christian Churches"). --FyzixFighter (talk) 14:03, 28 August 2010 (UTC)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Community_of_Christ#cite_note-41 The World Council of Churches does not recognise the Mormon movements. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Factsareinconvenient (talk • contribs) 13:35, 12 December 2010 (UTC)

No major Christian denomination considers Mormons to be Christian (The Roman Catholic Church, the Orthodox Curches, the Anglican Communion, the Lutheran Churches, etc.), and the definition of Christianity is not so simple as to be merely a belief in Jesus Christ; Jews, Muslims, and most Atheists believe in Jesus Christ, the question is what exactly do they believe he was and what precisely was his relationship to the one and only sole god, identified by the Jews as Yaweh and the Muslims as Allah. All Christian denominations have essentially the same belief as expressed in the Nicene Creed, and though some fringe groups do not recognise the text itself as authoritative, they all agree with the basic principles; Mormons, Jews, Muslims and Atheists have a different belief.

http://www.catholic.com/library/Distinctive_Beliefs_of_Mormon.asp Factsareinconvenient (talk) 14:03, 12 December 2010 (UTC)

See also "Nonrecognition of respective rites" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mormonism_and_Christianity - While this article is poorly written and seems in many places to imply a connection between Mormonism inside Christianity, the position of Christians in regard to Mormon baptism makes clear that they do not accept Mormonism as Christian. Review the citations (which is always good advice). — Preceding unsigned comment added by Factsareinconvenient (talk • contribs) 14:01, 12 December 2010 (UTC)

Mormonism should not be in the Christianity portal. That is not to say it is anything less, but it is simply not Christian. The definition of Christianity is rigid: One God. One Son who is also the final prophet. (Any future prophets are identified with the Beast and the Apocalypse if they are considered at all.) All Christian denominations accept the Apostles Creed and all major ones accept the Nicene. Those who don't fully accept the Nicene, can be identified as fringe; their identity as Christian is logically debatable, but Mormons are as clearly out of the fold as Muslims are. (I can call myself a black muslim and mean it, but being in reality an atheist, any self identification of myself as a black muslim does not make me one.) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Factsareinconvenient (talk • contribs) 12:56, 12 December 2010 (UTC)

You speak as if you know what you are talking about. Welcome to this poor article. New minds are always helpful. You seem to have a definition of being a Christian that is rather rigid. In fact, it is so rigid that not one of the original Apostles could be classified as Christian; I would say that is more than rigid. By chance do you have a definition for being a follower of Jesus or a Christian that can be supported by the Bible? If so, let's use it instead of anything created by man 325 years after Jesus.

You are correct, Latter-day Saints don't recognize any of the baptisms performed by other churches or denominations. To perform a baptism in the eyes of God, one needs his authority. LDS don't believe proper authority exists outside of their Church. LDS believe that Apostolic Succession is a creation of man used to justify the workings of a church created by the non-Christian, Constantine. In the Protestant world, the priesthood of the believer is also a creation of man used to justify their lack of authority.

Let's look at the Apostles' Creed and determine if LDS believe in the concepts it presents:

1. I believe in God, the Father almighty, creator of heaven and earth. LDS would agree with this with one caveat - Jesus did the creating by the direction of the Father.

2. I believe in Jesus Christ, his only Son, our Lord. LDS believe this completely.

3. He was conceived by the power of the Holy Spirit and born of the Virgin Mary. LDS believe this completely.

4. He suffered under Pontius Pilate, was crucified, died, and was buried. LDS believe this completely.

5. He descended into hell. On the third day he rose again. LDS believe this completely.

6. He ascended into heaven and is seated at the right hand of the Father. LDS believe this completely.

7. He will come again to judge the living and the dead. LDS believe this completely.

8. I believe in the Holy Spirit, LDS believe this completely.

9. the holy catholic Church, the communion of saints, LDS do NOT believe in the Catholic church, but can agree that there is only holy, true church found in the LDS Church.

10. the forgiveness of sins, LDS believe this completely.

11. the resurrection of the body, LDS believe this completely.

12. and life everlasting. LDS believe this completely.

No Muslim can admit these things. I do find it odd how many "critics" use this type of approach (to equate Islam with Mormonism - it demonstrates a remarkable ignorance of both Islam and the LDS Church! If anyone does admit these things, then I would say they are Christian.

No before you go and try to create an argument about the doctrine of the Trinity, please review the Catholic Encyclopedia which will tell you that the Trinity, as a doctrine, was created several hundred years after Jesus. It was not a part of Christ's ministry, Jesus did not demand that his followers understand, believe, or teach this doctrine. The question then becomees, who was the first one that required this specific belief and why? I will leave that to you to study and determine. Please return and tell me what you find.

The problem with facts is that they really are inconvenient. They shock the ignorant and enlighten the humble. -^StormRider 14:59, 12 December 2010 (UTC)

Your argument is severely impaired as it seems to me most of those who seek to define mormonism as Christianity do so without an understanding of what Christianity is. Firstly, LDS' do not support many of the principles of the Apostles Creed as is stated above. (Analysis of LDS 'acceptance' of the Nicene Creed would be more useful and make LDS' divergence from Christianity more apparent.) Most fundamentally, Mormons do not believe in one and only one God and creator, and one and only one divine son, born of a virgin. (Satan as blood brother, God's previous corporeal existence, Christ the creator, the mormon opportunity to become a god and other gods (polytheism), and future revelation (the book of mormon) are all impossible contradictions to definition as 'christian'. (The caveat stated above alone is enough to render Mormonism no longer Christian.) Furthermore, the bible is unnecessary and of little use to the definition. Like other religions, the entirety of the religion is not contained explicitly in the primary document, however, the fundamental documents like the nicene creed are well established as being based upon the primary source (the Bible). These arguments are too complicated for this section and so established that to even question them reveals that mormonism is not 'christian'. Christians existed for nearly two thousand years under a broadly united definition and though they had many doctrinal disagreements, all of them agreed to a set of principles that Mormons do not believe. Christians defined themselves long before mormonism was invented. Mormons do not have the right or ability to change the definition of others to include themselves. As far as Christians are concerned, Mormons do not even worship the same god that they, jews and muslims do. Also, you do not understand the definition of 'catholic' (with a small c). The word refers to the ancient and universal church and does not refer to the Roman Catholic Church directly; it did not identify itself as such in the second century. (And it doesn't matter when the idea of a trinity was 'created'; the fact is it is a defining characteristic of being 'christian' and was recognised as such for a thousand years before mormonism. It's part of the definition, whether non-scholars are able to 'read' it in the bible or not.)~~ — Preceding unsigned comment added by Factsareinconvenient (talk • contribs) 19:31, 12 December 2010 (UTC)

...and actually, Muslims do believe many of the principles: God the creator (only one), resurrection of the body, forgiveness of sins, life everlasting...~~ — Preceding unsigned comment added by Factsareinconvenient (talk • contribs) 19:37, 12 December 2010 (UTC)

This argument is truly NULL and void. Please see the Webster's dictionary, an universally accepted dictionary for the English language. It states "one who professes belief in the teachings of Jesus Christ". Mormons confess a belief in Christ.. End of Argument.Wearingaredhat (talk) 07:05, 31 January 2011 (UTC)

Webster’s Dictionary is manifestly not a citable source for the provision of an accurate definition of Christianity. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Factsareinconvenient (talk • contribs) 10:09, 2 March 2011 (UTC)

Merriam-Webster perhaps has an infinitesimal amount of weight, but no dictionary would be referenced in even the most faintly academically inclined discussion. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Factsareinconvenient (talk • contribs) 10:17, 2 March 2011 (UTC)

Webster's Dictionary — Preceding unsigned comment added by Factsareinconvenient (talk • contribs) 10:19, 2 March 2011 (UTC)

The sign in front of LDS churches is:" Church of Jesus Christ , Latter day Saints." Period. Joseph Smith is considered an apostle; like Peter, Paul, John, etc. Not an immortal Messiah--simply latter-day. Muslims do not consider Christ as the Messiah or prophet, they consider his as only a minor apostle. Only Mohammed is their prophet--but, he is dead in his grave, not like Jesus Christ, whom 250 Roman Solders witnessed as risen from his grave, or that his was grave empty. How can this be compared to LDS, or, any modern Christian church?70.176.118.196 (talk) 02:16, 23 March 2011 (UTC)

In the german Wikipedia we have the same discussion and we have come to the conclusion that the LDS cannot be called christian in general, since it differs in some principal beliefs to what is accepted as common in christianity: 1. it believes in polytheism, which is against one of christianity's main characteristics as a abrahamatic monotheistic religion. 2. it believes in other scriptures than the Bible, e.g. the Book of Mormon, 3. it believes in prophets that other christians do not believe in. 4. it doesn't accept the creed of Nicaia, the first official creed of the church (accepted on the first ecumenical council in 325) 5. it doesn't believe in the Christian doctrine of trinity that Father, Son and the Holy Spirit are persons in one being: Godhead. 6. Lucifer, the devil, is seen as the brother of Jesus Christ 7. it doesn't identify itself with any christian cross. All the established churches like the roman-catholic, the catholic-orthodox, and the lutheran church don't see the mormons to be part of christianity and thus don't accept baptized mormons to be christians. They instead call LDS a syncretistic new-religion. Established theology, history and sociology professors in the scientific world deny mormons the status as christians using a mix of the critical points listed above. The Webster's dictionary or any other general dictionaries of english, or other major languages, are no good sources for definitions of what a christian is, because they don't go into the details. There are other scholar-works, like the german "Theologische Realenzyklopädie" that give much more detailed definitions of what christianity is supposed to be by experts. It is hereby noteworthy to say that neither the Britannica, nor the Oxford dictionaries define mormons to be christians. Thus by defining mormons to be christians the english Wikipedia seems to be the only encyclopedia in the world doing so. Whether mormons see themselves as christians is completely irrelevant, since anybody can call himself christian without being it. We should thus not focus on what mormons think of themselves, but rather what the public, and especially what experts have to say. Otherwise we give no neutral point of view, an important criteria of good Wikipedia articles. --217.5.199.242 (talk) 08:48, 30 March 2011 (UTC)

If this is what the German Wikipedia thinks, then I fear for theology in Germany. Let's take your points: 1) We believe in God the Father, and in his Son, Jesus Christ, and in the Holy Ghost. If that is polytheism, then granted. 2) Other scriptures: which Bible are we talking about one with the Apocrypha or one without? When did God say to take them out? Is Tradition considered as good as scripture? If so, then who gets to decide what is most important? 3) No where does it say a prophet is a prophet if all Christians agree. In fact, scripture shows that many prophets were not accepted by the people of God. Is the Pope the Pope because other Christians do not accept him. 4) Requiring being in the Nicaean Creed condemns Jesus and all of the early Christians. (This list is getting progressively more absurd and devoid of logic) 5) The doctrine of the Trinity is not found in scripture, was not believed by the early apostles and early Christians. It became a doctrine 325 years after Christ; get the period of time involved 3-0-0 YEARS to develop this doctrine. If required you would have thought Jesus would have made it the central piece of his teachings WHICH HE OBVIOUSLY DID NOT. 6) Lucifer is a creation of God; as one of his creations he is necessarily in relationship with all of his creation, even his Son. 7) The Christian cross was not a symbol for the early followers of Jesus. More importantly, LDS prefer to focus on Jesus resurrected, living, and active in their daily lives. Attempting to equate Christianity with a single symbol has no foundation in logic, theology, or truth. 8) Absolutely false; almost all scholars acknowledge the LDS Church as distinctly Christian. Only other churches deny the LDS Church's Christianity. This is strictly their prerogative, but not one of them owns or controls the definition of Christian. All English dictionaries use a definition of "Christian" as a follower of Jesus; all of your definitions are only useful if you are a Catholic, Orthodox, or Lutheran. In the US Lutherans have become so liberal their own Christianity could be questioned. You are correct, anyone can call themselves Christian. Jesus taught us that it is not what comes out of one's mouth, but those who listen to the Lord and follow him, keep his commandments that know Him. I will take Jesus Christ's definition of his followers over any group's chosen definition. Cheers.

I have to say that the German Wikipedia is in a very sad situation if this is the best you can come up with. -^StormRider 12:03, 30 March 2011 (UTC)

1: Smith said that it is possible for humans to become a God since everyone is given the grace of God. 2: Apocrypha were texts written during the early period of christianity (NT) or judaism (OT). That they were discussed and are still discussed is part of the search for a common canon. The Book of Mormon instead was created in the 19th century, and thus has nothing to do with these works. Never has a discussion in the catholic church or the protestant churches taken place to include the Book of Mormon as part of the canon 4: We are talking about christianity of today, not in Jesus times, which is different from christianity in the apostolic age. Christianity today agrees upon the creed of Nicaia as the essence of faith that need to be accepted by all christians. 5: Same like 4, we are talking about christianity in our times, not in Jesus' times. During Jesus times there didn't even exist any scriptures of the New Testament, so you could equally criticize why we believe in scriptures, that were written after Jesus died. 6: at least in this point you face strong dissense from christians in the world. 8: Show your sources that prove that theologians agree that the mormons are christians! My scholarly sources don't say it including the Theologische Realenzyklopädie, one of the most profound and well-known theological encyclopedias in the world written by international experts in their fields. --217.5.199.242 (talk) 13:35, 30 March 2011 (UTC)

Let's also look at some english dictionaries and what they have got to say about mormons or the LDS:

• http://oxforddictionaries.com/view/entry/m_en_gb0534500#m_en_gb0534500
• http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/mormons
• http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/392525/Mormon
• http://www.ldoceonline.com/dictionary/Mormon
• http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/latter-day+saint?show=0&t=1301492718

As I said before, none of them use the word "christian", which contradicts the way the LDS is categorized in the english Wikipedia. It seems like defendants of mormon's christianity need to have very good answers, why the majority of dictionaries and encyclopedias in english don't define them to be christian, while other religious groups like the quakers are defined to be christians. It all seems to me like the authors of the LDS-article in the english Wikipedia didn't think a lot about categorizing them to be a group of christians. --217.5.199.242 (talk) 13:59, 30 March 2011 (UTC)

I haven't looked at any of the dictionaries you listed, but if you actually read the Encyclopedia Brittanica entry you would know that it does use the word Christian, and there's another section here which specifically talks about how you can look at the definition of Christian to either include or exclude Mormonism depending upon your POV. VernoWhitney (talk) 14:16, 30 March 2011 (UTC)

Correct, the Britannica uses the word christian, but it doesn't define mormons to be christians, as you can see from your linked article too. So it is POV to call them christians, while in the case we omit it or we make it clear that their attribution to Christianity is disputed like the Britannica does, we show a neutral point of view. --217.5.199.242 (talk) 14:31, 30 March 2011 (UTC)

It is made clear that their attribution to Christianity is disputed. See The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints#Comparisons with mainstream Christianity and Mormonism and Christianity. VernoWhitney (talk) 14:33, 30 March 2011 (UTC)

Not clear enough, since the first sentence of the article defines them to be a "restorationist Christian religion", thus claiming as if it is a christian religion indeed without any criticism at this point. I would omit Christian from the beginning on and later include a sentence like this into the introduction: "Mormons see themselves as Christians, which is disputed among catholics, protestants, academics and in the public." --217.5.199.242 (talk) 14:42, 30 March 2011 (UTC)

Are we really have this discussion...again? I refer the anon to the succinct summary of the previous consensus solution. I see nothing new in the recent arguments that hasn't already been debated (except the reference to the not even a week old debate on the German wikipedia) so I don't think the consensus would have changed. Even so, to restate what has been stated before - we describe the LDS as Christian because numerous scholarly reliable sources explicitly place the LDS within Christianity (statements of explicit inclusion imo are superior to non-statements of implied exclusion), for example:

• The Religious Composition of the United States
• 2001 American Religious Identification Survey
• CIA - The World Factbook -- Field Listing::Religion
• ARIS 2008 Report: Part IA - Belonging
• Responses of the Churches to HIV and AIDS in South Africa (pg 37) - from the World Council of Churches
• Sources for Religious Congregations & Membership Data for the Association of Religion Data Archives (ARDA) (see section "Who is included in the 2000 Religious Congregations and Membership data?")

and so on. If you really want to push this issue and determine if the consensus has changed, I would recommend that you present this debate at a broader and higher level venue like at WP:CHRISTIAN or WP:RELIGION. --FyzixFighter (talk) 18:49, 30 March 2011 (UTC)

Thanks FyzixFighter for sharing the sources pro-Christianity for mormons. Let me now criticize them one by one:

1. Pew Research Center, which is the organization behind the first of your sources, is a privately owned think tank founded in 2004. As such it doesn't have a lot of reputation in the scientific world yet, and members of its Pew Research Center’s Forum on Religion & Public Life are not well-known experts in theology. None of the senior staff members has earned an academic degree in religions or christian theology, most of them studied politics, economy or sociology. I doubt about their expertise in central questions of christian belief. The source itself nowhere states its classification criteria of grouping denominations into the large group of Christianity. Nowhere is there a justification found, about why certain groups are included. It seems to me they have a rather unthorough approach and include all organisations that declare themselves to be christians, like the jehovas witnesses, whose membership to christianity is disputed as well.
2. The American Religious Identification Survey of 2001 was published by the graduate center of the city university of New York. The study director Ariela Keysar is a demographer, no theologian. Once again this source nowhere explains its classifications and on which criteria it included otherwise disputed groups into christianity.
3. The CIA is by no means an authorative source for the definition of christianity. So whether the CIA calls mormons christians or not, is not of great relevance. What would be interesting to know is where the CIA got this classification from. A general enquiry would be a good way to find out.
4. This is a single report about South Africa by the World Council of Churches. Against it I have to say, that the LDS Church seems to be the only denomination (and other mormon groups) that is not a member church of this christian body and that the report itself is just one specific report. Nevertheless we could go forward and ask the WCC whether it defines the mormons to be a part of christianity to get clarification.
5. ARIS 2008 is just the 2008 version, instead of 2001 in source number. So what applies to source no. 2 applies to this one as well.
6. No criteria or definitions given why certain organisations including the LDS church are included.

While all your given sources prove that mormons are regarded as christians by some organizations and scholars, the given sources were not strong, because they didn't go into detail about their choices. Statistical surveys that don't define their selections and categories should be seen as rather primitive, since this is what profound academic statistical reports in general do: They first define, create groups or classes, argue for why they made their choices, and then go on to present statistical data and how they elaborated them. For our dispute strong sources are those from authorative institutions and single researchers or research teams, prefereably those with a christian background, since the point of debate is whether mormons belong to christianity or not. This question must be dealt with by experts in christian faith, who can primarily be found in traditional theological faculties at universities with long traditions, such as those in Paris or Cologne, Marburg, Oxford, Barcelona, Bologna, Harvard, among others. --217.50.54.87 (talk) 20:38, 30 March 2011 (UTC)

I think this Anon has said it all when she consistently emphasizes that the Christianity of today has nothing to do with the Church founded by Jesus Christ and nothing to do with what he taught. By being so honest as to admit that Jesus taught a different gospel and certainly defined his disciples by different terms she has provided all that is needed to ignore everything she states because it has nothing to do with Jesus and his teaching, but rather the teachings of men. Nothing is more demonstrative of this position then when a group of men 325 years after Jesus' life decided to create a doctrine that goes against the Bible and what Jesus taught. Worse, this creed became the foundation for their followers and they attempt to use this same definition to define Christianity. What they mean is that their new gospel has nothing to do with the gospel of Jesus and I agree that Mormons have no desire to follow the teachings of man. The LDS Church has no intention or claim to belong to Catholicism, the Eastern Orthodox, or Lutheranism. This is the Church restored by Jesus himself to the earth again to purge the world of the teachings of men; to proclaim that the heaven remain open and God talks to his prophets. Your definitions are unique to these groups you have mentioned and none of them have anything to do with definition used by Jesus. Don't write another thing unless you can demonstrate by using the Bible that Jesus demanded of his followers to believe in the Trinity. I could save you time, but you need to research. Oh heck, you could search for an eternity and you will not find it in the Bible because it is false and Jesus never taught such a thing or demanded it of his followers. What he did demand is that we love God, our neighbors, follow his commandments, pray, partake of the Sacrament, and have faith in Him. Interesting how men would create a absolute belief in something that Jesus did not teach?!? -^StormRider 22:07, 30 March 2011 (UTC)

Jesus Christ didn't found any church. That is the first thing to be noted. Why do mormons follow the book of Mormon when Jesus or any christian of the apostolic age never said anything about it? Why do mormons found a religion 1800 years after Jesus Christ died? 300 years against 1800 years is quite a difference. Also it is not interesting what mormons would like to do or be, we don't judge them by their own point of view and by their wishes, but rather by facts and by the fundamental sources of their faith. We are not talking about whether they should be called catholic or protestant, but discuss whether it is correct to call them christian. And the strongest argument against mormons to be seen as christians is their belief in other scriptures that are not part of the shared canon, and not part of the apocryphas. Especially the Book of Mormon is seen by many scientists (archaelogists, theologians, philologists, historians) to be a fiction and a 19th-century-creation of mixed (syncretic) inspirations Joseph Smith jun. had. Its original language "reformed egyptian" has never been identified as an ancient language in use. Thus its authenticity is greatly disputed. Because of the majority of respected scholars of theology don't see mormons as christians, Wikipedia should not let itself become distracted from the point of view of mormons, but rather focus on what experts have to say about it. I don't see any sense to object to what major dictionaries and encyclopedias in the languages I know (german, english, russian, spanish, etc.) have to say about the mormons, calling them either a religious body, sect, cult or movement and don't state that they are christian. --217.5.199.242 (talk) 08:09, 31 March 2011 (UTC)

First, he did found a Church; just ask the Catholics. Second, search the New Testatment for the word church; also look at the organization he created by looking at Ephesians 4:11-14. Please do not make declarative statements unless you know what you are talking about. If you must, begin the statement with "I believe..." You do not "know" anything, but you have an opinion of belief.

Mormons founded a church 1800 years after Jesus' time because LDS believe that Jesus restored his Church upon the earth again with the original structure. It is their belief, which is just as valid as your beliefs.

Fiction: do you know how much of the Bible is disproved by scientists? Do you really want to take this path? What Jesus taught us is to have Faith; he did not say go and believe in the arm of flesh i.e. the knowledge of man, but to have faith in that which we cannot see. This is scriptural; found in your Bible. Do you believe it or not?

The only thing the Book of Mormon does is bear witness to Jew and Gentile that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of the Living God. It asks those who read it to ask God if it is true. If you want to put your faith in the understanding of man; go for it. As far as trying to exclude LDS from Christianity because of their belief in the Book of Mormon, do you have any scriptural support for your position? If not, you have nothing to say other than what you believe. LDS believe God lives and talks to prophets today just as he did in yester year. Also, if you try to go to Revelations and say not to add or take away from the words of "this" book. Please first explain the Apocrapha and then look at Deuteronomy 4:2 and compare the two versus and explain how they are different. What is the book Revelations is talking about?

Thank you for sharing your opinion; it is lacking and Wikipedia has no room for attempting to portray your opinion or even the opinions of other churches. We work with facts and we report those facts to the world. All you have done is share an opinion; thank you. -^StormRider 08:34, 31 March 2011 (UTC)

Catholic exegesis shows that we cannot call of a formal founding act by Jesus Christ, but only can refer to what he said to apostle Peter in Mt 16,18-19. Problem among experts is what you define to be a church or ecclesia, but common understanding is that of a group that follows the teachings of Jesus Christ after he died and was resurrected. Peter was the one apointed for that task. We are also not talking about the specific points inside the Bible that are disapproved by scholars to be facts or the historic inaccuracies. This is not what I am talking about. I am talking about the authenticity of scriptures written in ancient times on papyrus, or golden plates, or codexes or any other form of media. Scientists can now quite exactly trace back when jews agreed upon a canon of the tanakh, and when they first wrote pieces of what we call parts of the Old Testament. Same goes for New Testament. The history of writing down what was first shared as oral history, can be reconstructed quite well. It is a historic fact that in ancient times people compiled or wrote down parts of what is known to us as the Bible. One of such manuscripts is the Codex Sinaiticus. However, the creation of the Book of Mormon cannot be reconstructed historically, and there seems to be no manuscripts dating back to ancient times, or can you show me plates the Book of Mormon was first written on? Also note that this is not just my opinion. You can find the same criticism I state here, in the works of academics around the world. I am not the one who invented all these arguments. These arguments have been present almost since the day, the LDS church was founded. To ignore the opinions of theologians, historians, archaeologists and philologists seems to only show your ignorance in the subject. If you don't want to read research papers, please consult your english dictionary - if you have one - of what it has got to say about mormons. If it states that mormons or the LDS church is christian, please come back and show me. I have meanwhile consulted the Oxford English Dictionary, which also doesn't define mormons to be christians. Speaking against the OED will be a difficult task, but nonetheless I am still open for debate. Thanks. --217.5.199.242 (talk) 09:07, 31 March 2011 (UTC)

Well I have fed this troll enough. Just because you have the same opinion as others does not make the opinion correct. To have a debate one must be knowledgeable of the subject matter; you have proved sadly lacking. -^StormRider 12:39, 31 March 2011 (UTC)

Oh well, now I am accused to be a troll, while I happen to have the same opinion like Britannica, the Oxford English Dictionary, and the majority of theologians, who don't see mormons as christians. It seems like all these scholars are not knowledeable of the subject matter according to a WP user called "Storm Rider". It sounds ridiculous to me, how someone can insist on his own opinion while experts in the world oppose to it. That the english Wikipedia seems to count more on the opinions of mormons than on the Oxford English Dictionary or Britannica sounds rather ridiculous. --217.5.199.242 (talk) 13:18, 31 March 2011 (UTC)

A request for a third opinion was made by one of the editors involved in this discussion. I have declined that request, as there are already more than 3 editors involved in the discussion. If the dispute cannot be managed here, please take the matter to WP:Dispute resolution. WikiDan61^ChatMe!_ReadMe!! 14:22, 30 March 2011 (UTC)

Storm Rider, re: the Apostles creed. Christianity claims that God created the world through Jesus (see: Logos (Christianity). And catholic church means universal church not big-C Catholic. TFD (talk) 18:05, 31 March 2011 (UTC)

• comment We had this same discussion with Jehovah's Witnesses. Wikipedia doesn't use the degree of adherence to the Nicene creed as a bar to decide whether a religion is "christian" or not. We use 1. reliable sources and 2. selfidentification. Using the label "restorationist christian" is not a selfdescriptive term it is a term the is used as a classification within sociology of religion and which includes all religions that describe them self as restoring a more original kind of christianity. If we have a reliable source that LDS claim to be restoring christianity to its original form - then LDS is a restorationist christian group. It doesn't matter an ounce what other christians think - they do not determine how other religions are defined. ·Maunus·ƛ· 18:24, 31 March 2011 (UTC)

Maunus: A good point but if we really stick to the expression "restorationist christian", we should not confuse people by providing separate links to both restoration and christianity, since people then might think the adjectives used are completely distinct and see the Church of Jesus Christ LDS as part of christianity. --217.50.56.198 (talk) 18:56, 31 March 2011 (UTC)

Editing control?

Why are Mormon missionaries given editing control over the Mormon page? I corrected many of the factual errors in the article and I received a warning. Mormonism is NOT a branch of Christianity. Every Church believes Mormonism to be a mix of paganism, old heresy, and new American folk cult religion. Mormonism does not believe in the same Jesus as Christians, just like Muslims. Mormons are attempting to blend into Christianity, but their teaching clearly is not Christian. Right now, the Mormon page is entirely from a pro-Mormon point of view which seeks to have Mormonism accepted as Christian. How can Wikipedia dare say to be unbiased when you host essentially a propaganda piece written by Mormons? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.11.77.254 (talk) 14:01, 30 December 2010 (UTC)

It really can't be helped, it's generally a problem with wikipedia, if the orgainization is large enough be it bussnes or in this case a "church" look a the artcial for black water for instance —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.193.186.17 (talk) 09:05, 5 March 2011 (UTC)

If you've been Reading, LDS/Mormon Is a Christian church. Maybe not a "branch" of anything, but not, certainly, any: "mix of paganism, old heresy. and American cult religion." Muslim is as unrelated as scientology to it. Besides, read the definition of: Cult--it is: "any group with rituals attached." That can be Any church, most organizations; even the Boy Scouts. It isn't a "black label" to be thrown around and darken anything. Besides, look at the early Catholic church--numerous Saints were easily assimilated by pagan tribes into their own polytheism--Saint of animals, Saint of childbirth, etc. Also, Christ's birthday was changed from about April until Dec. 25--Constantine's wife's birthday; also a convenient close-approach to the winter solstice, a pagan ritual. So, Catholicism, a very "Christian" church had pagan assimilations.70.176.118.196 (talk) 02:36, 23 March 2011 (UTC)

church attendance counts

This edit was in good faith, though I think the sources were lacking. I seem to recall that Ostling's Mormon America discussed the inflated nature of LDS records. Does anyone have that (or another source) handy? tedder (talk) 20:48, 31 January 2011 (UTC)

I agree that it was in good faith; I'm also not convinced that The Cumorah Project's analysis of attendance and growth qualifies as a reliable source. I'd also like to see other source(s) to back this up. —C.Fred (talk) 20:53, 31 January 2011 (UTC)

I agree that it isn't a reliable source, though it might sneak through if termed "The Cumorah Project says..". Still, there should be more reliable sources out there. I just don't have MA or other books anymore. tedder (talk) 20:59, 31 January 2011 (UTC)

TrulySaid either doesn't understand or doesn't care for WP:3RR and seems to be ignoring requests for discourse or better references for their additions. I agree that they're in good faith - just not having followed in spirit of the wiki. Is it time to WP:RPP until we can get this sorted? Doriftu Speak Up. 22:04, 31 January 2011 (UTC)

Reporting him and having him blocked short-term for 3RR/EW is probably the best we can hope for. Page protection might be appropriate if the incident involved a lot of editors (and/or sockpuppets of a single editor), but that doesn't seem to be the case here, at least not now. Richwales (talk · contribs) 22:11, 31 January 2011 (UTC)

This topic is a non-starter for me. It comes around periodically when some editors is incensed that the LDS Church inflates their membership numbers; they don't know how, but they are certain the evil empire is jiggering the numbers in order to appear more important. Of course no international church of any size knows the exact number of their faithful attend church weekly. For example, Catholics; does anyone really believe their membership numbers are a reflection of truly participating members? When next in Europe, pass by during mass and count. How about Anglicans? You take the church and none of them has a mechanism capable of counting only active, participating members. Even more important, there is not a legitimate system anywhere in the world that can count them. Making mountains out of mole hills. Move on. -^StormRider 06:14, 1 February 2011 (UTC)

Partially agree/disagree. As I said earlier (see the next section below), I would have no problem citing estimates regarding attendance, activity, self-identification, etc., as long as the exact nature of the cited figure(s) is clearly stated and the material is backed up by a citation to a highly reliable source or sources. I would not, however, approve of language stating or implying that the LDS Church is engaging in deception regarding its number of adherents; not only would such a statement clearly be POV, but I can't imagine any way that such a statement could possibly be substantiated by a reliable source. Richwales (talk · contribs) 17:16, 1 February 2011 (UTC)

Membership numbers of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints are very accurate. They have no reason to inflate the report given at each world broadcast, (April conference and October conference). Tune in April 2, 2011 (Saturday, 10am Utah time). My Father was a ward clerk and membership records are considered sacred; membership changes are linked to the database in Salt Lake City. Call them up if you have a question. Didn't you see the movie about LDS missionary, John Groberg The Other Side of Heaven? Charles Edwin Shipp (talk) 04:40, 28 March 2011 (UTC)

Maybe Charles Edwin is a troll, and maybe I am feeding said troll in my naivete, so please forgive me if that is the case. "They have no reason to inflate the report given at each world broadcast" - that is the biggest BS statement I have read in a long time. There are a hundred reasons why the church would want to inflate its numbers. Not saying they do - just that the incentive is definitely there.--Descartes1979 (talk) 04:46, 28 March 2011 (UTC)

Not a troll. I had to verify definitions: "a troll is someone who posts inflammatory, extraneous, or off-topic messages", from Troll (Internet). That said, I can see why you would think my statement is "bull-shit", excuse the French, apologies to the French. Saying there are a hundred reasons to exaggerate is also a stretch — there are probably seven. Members of the church may want to see higher numbers, but the leadership of the church, the ones that announce the membership, are more interested in honesty and accuracy. You can find the membership numbers broken down by country in the church's annual paperback almanac. Hope this helps. btw, I consider this an extraneous cul-de-sac, so I guess those participating are 'trolls'. Charles Edwin Shipp (talk) 09:31, 28 March 2011 (UTC)

Sorry that is BS too - there is heavy incentive for church leadership to inflate numbers. If it was about honesty and accuracy, then why don't they report inactivity rates, or the number of people that resign from the church, or talk about the Pew surveys that show self declared affiliation and growth rates far below the numbers that the LDS church reports? Or open their counts for public scrutiny? Obviously this is my POV (but it is a pretty well informed one I like to think after watching countless hours of general conference reports), but it is pretty clear that they trumpet these numbers to propagandize the church membership into believing that "all is well". They do the EXACT same thing in Scientology and Jehovah's Witnesses and a bunch of other New Religious Movements. Again - I am not disputing the accuracy of the numbers, but I think you are just flat wrong if you don't think there is an incentive for church leadership to do so.--Descartes1979 (talk) 16:35, 28 March 2011 (UTC)

Granted. Who knows the heart of man but God? . . . April 2, 2011, World General Conference,

FYI: auditors reported 2010 membership at 14,131,467. Charles Edwin Shipp (talk) 20:29, 2 April 2011 (UTC)

Granted, 'membership total' is different than 'church attendance counts' but who mentions those? No one. Charles Edwin Shipp (talk) 20:33, 2 April 2011 (UTC)

Way ahead of you. – Ajl^talk 20:34, 2 April 2011 (UTC)

Young's polygamy

I recently saw this sentence removed, then restored:

“ According to LDS Church records, Young was "sealed" to as many as 56 women, far more than the estimated 32 brides sealed to Joseph Smith during his rule. ”

I had mixed feelings about both actions. But if we keep it, we need to fix a few issues:

1. We don't describe, at all, what the scare-quoted "sealed" is supposed to mean.
2. "according to LDS Church records...as many as" - why are we citing church records, which should provide a solid number, and then invoking the speculative phrase "as many as"? Also, if we cite church records, we should cite church records. The provided ref is [See Tullidge, Edward, History of Salt Lake City, 132-35 (Original from the University of Michigan, 1886).]
3. "far more" - what's the point of this editorialization?
4. "during his rule" - ambiguous, but dripping with POV regardless of whether it is referring to Smith or to Young

I do feel it important to mention Young's polygamy here, but this sentence fails on so many levels. If nobody else does, I'll try my hand a little later at rewriting this atrocity. ...comments? ~BFizz 19:11, 17 February 2011 (UTC)

Roughly, what is needed seems to be this:

• the military was coming because LDS were practicing polygamy
• Young was married to up to at least N women (note "married", not "sealed", no explanation really necessary). This is worth mentioning because of the first point (why the military was coming).

Right? In that case, it would be nice to cite something removed from the primary source (LDS records). tedder (talk) 19:28, 17 February 2011 (UTC)

It would be more scholarly to use the conservative phrase "at least N" (minimum), rather than the speculative "up to N" (maximum). The numbers for each phrase would be different, of course. ...comments? ~BFizz 22:07, 17 February 2011 (UTC)

You're right. Or "there were at least N documented", but that's bordering POV, because it basically states "but there were inevitably more". I'm not a great wordsmith; I'm more concerned that the main points are hit. tedder (talk) 22:45, 17 February 2011 (UTC)

Mormon Helping Hands

I was throwing around the idea of adding a section on Mormon Helping Hands. I was thinking of using a few various newspaper articles that mention their activities such as this and this. But before my efforts get rolled back, I'd like to know what everyone thinks about it. Cheers, w7jkt ^talk 14:51, 12 March 2011 (UTC)

I agree. The charitable work organized by the church or its members should probably have a section (in general, not just Helping Hands). Other articles like Catholic Church should probably have such a section as well. ...comments? ~BFizz 03:47, 13 March 2011 (UTC)

OK, well I've started work on a section here but it's somewhat pathetic as it stands. I just don't have a ton of time to put toward it. I'll keep working on it, but there is also LDS Philanthropies which we could draw from, but it is quite shabby. As far as other churches, I can't really speak for them, but I feel the same as you. Regards, Firinne ^talk 17:39, 13 March 2011 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Neutral point of view/Noticeboard

Having just seen this topic discussed on the NPOV Noticeboard, and some of the discussions here, and then after reviewing the article itself, I would agree that the article is presenting a point of view that is biased toward showing LDS-perceived similarities between themselves and Orthodox Christians. On one hand, I see it as a sincerely-held belief and therefore reasonable to include, on the other hand, I find it to be disingenuous and potentially deceptive as well. Presenting this as a neutral point of view almost seems impossible, because you will either have people who stridently believe the LDS view or stridently take the opposing view.

• The person of Christ that is believed by LDS is a literally spirit-born creation of a God who was himself created by another God.
• The person of Christ that is believed by Orthodoxy is an eternal component of an eternal God.

So if you simply strip away all the extra words and leave 'Christ', they're the same, but, adding in the facts, they are not.

• In LDS, humanity was created after Christ, spirit-born as well, but in a different manner, into a spiritual pre-existence with God, and come to Earth to grow and be tested.
• In Orthodoxy, humanity is created on Earth simply because it is God's will, formed from dust on the sixth day, never existing before.

Without question, there are significant and meaningful differences in belief, these are just a couple of examples. To me, it is puzzling that LDS take such great pains to seem like Orthodoxy when such distinctions exist.

How this should relate to the article or be incorporated into it, I am not sure. But it definitely is worth consideration. -- Avanu (talk) 16:13, 31 March 2011 (UTC)

Avanu: Orthodox christianity which is split into the oriental branch (like copts) and the eastern orthodox branch (like Constantinople, Antioch, Alexandria, Moscow etc.) is widely accepted by christians and theologians to be part of christianity, not only because it shares a long history with the roman-catholic church and some of its communities are the oldest of known christianity, but because they all agree upon the Nicene Creed, as the minimal consens of christian doctrine. --217.50.56.198 (talk) 18:46, 31 March 2011 (UTC)

Not sure what your point was there, but OK? I didn't mean Orthodox as the Eastern or Oriental, but as all Christians sharing a 'traditional belief'. See 'orthodox' in Wiktionary (or below). -- Avanu (talk) 23:08, 31 March 2011 (UTC)

orthodox (adjective)(comparative - more orthodox, superlative - most orthodox)

1.Conforming to the established, accepted or traditional faith or religion.

2.Adhering to whatever is traditional, customary or generally accepted.

I came from the RSN page. This whole topic is bizarre. LDS Mormons are clearly Christian in that they believe in Christ as Messiah. The fact that some more popular Christian sects don't believe they are "true" Christians is meaningless, as Baptists often don't think of Catholics as true Christians either. The reliable sources call them Christians - specifically the nontrinitarian branch of Christians. Hence Wikipedia has to call them Christians. Someone's personal religious beliefs not wanting to accept that isn't important here. DreamGuy (talk) 23:16, 31 March 2011 (UTC)

How do we get a reliable and unbiased source for a person's personal belief? DreamGuy, I'm not sure if you read my description above, but there is a clear difference. Whether that means they are *called* Christian is one thing, but without question there is a difference. Some reliable sources that are available to us say Mormons are Christian, some reliable sources say that they are not Christian, do we include some and ignore the others? -- Avanu (talk) 23:31, 31 March 2011 (UTC)

I find recent changes to this article very troubling. The current version states that LDS Church "views itself" as Christian. Exactly whose definition are we using? Since the LDS Church is not claiming that it is orthodox (as in the majority of Christians and not the Eastern Orthodox Church), I don't see why their standards are being applied to this article. I'm reverting. This is blatant POV. Ltwin (talk) 01:00, 1 April 2011 (UTC)

Ltwin, I would like to see how it is POV to declare what LDS itself says about itself. Also, since people are asking for Reliable Sources, here are some to review (took about 20 minutes to gather up):

Sectarian sources

Catholic stances

From http://www.catholic.com/library/Distinctive_Beliefs_of_Mormon.asp (appears to be a biased source, pro-Catholic)

Still, it isn’t correct to call Mormons Protestants, because doing so implies they hold to the essentials of Christianity—what C. S. Lewis termed "mere Christianity." The fact is, they don’t. Gordon B. Hinckley, the current president and prophet of the Mormon church, says (in a booklet called What of the Mormons?) that he and his co-religionists "are no closer to Protestantism than they are to Catholicism."

That isn’t quite right—it would be better to say Mormons are even further from Catholicism than from Protestantism. But Hinckley is right in saying that Mormons are very different from Catholics and Protestants. Let’s examine some of these differences. We can start by considering the young men who come to your door.

From http://www.catholicnews.com/data/stories/cns/0802443.htm

"As Catholics, we have to make very clear to them their practice of so-called rebaptism is unacceptable from the standpoint of Catholic truth."

In 2001 the Vatican's doctrinal congregation issued a ruling that baptism conferred by the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints cannot be considered a valid Christian baptism, thus requiring converts from that religion to Catholicism to receive a Catholic baptism.

"We don't have an issue with the fact that the Catholic Church doesn't recognize our baptisms, because we don't recognize theirs," Otterson said. "It's a difference of belief."

Lutheran stances

From http://www.lcms.org/pages/internal.asp?NavID=2239

The Lutheran Church--Missouri Synod, together with the vast majority of Christian denominations in the United States, does not regard the Mormon church as a Christian church. That is because the official writings of Mormonism deny fundamental teachings of orthodox Christianity.

From http://www.elca.org/Growing-In-Faith/Worship/Learning-Center/FAQs/Rebaptism.aspx

Although Mormons may use water — and lots of it — and while they may say "Father, Son, and Holy Spirit," their teaching about the nature of God is substantially different from that of orthodox, creedal Christianity. Because the Mormon understanding of the Word of God is not the same as the Christian understanding, it is correct to say that Christian Baptism has not taken place.

Methodist stances

From http://archives.umc.org/interior.asp?ptid=2&mid=3558

"The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, by self-definition, does not fit within the bounds of the historic, apostolic tradition of Christian faith," delegates said.

While the Mormons identify themselves as Christian, they also "explicitly (profess) distinction and separateness from the ecumenical community," delegates said.

"Sacramental Faithfulness" also recommends that Mormons seeking membership in the United Methodist Church first initiate their own formal removal from the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

Non-sectarian sources

Encyclopedia of Mormonism, Macmillan 1992

http://contentdm.lib.byu.edu/cdm4/document.php?CISOROOT=/EoM&CISOPTR=4391&REC=1

"The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints does not see itself as one Christian denomination among many, but rather as God's latter-day RESTORATION of the fulness of Christian faith and practice. Thus, from its earliest days LDS Christians sought to distinguish themselves from Christians of other traditions. Other forms of Christianity ... are viewed as incomplete....

Therefore, the designation "saint" reflects attachment to the New Testament church, and also designates a difference from Catholic, Eastern Orthodox, and Protestant Christianity in the current DISPENSATION.

In response, and for a variety of other reasons, some Catholic, Orthodox, and Protestant Christians have been reticent to apply the term "Christian" to Latter-day Saints.

Boston Globe

http://www.boston.com/news/local/articles_of_faith/2008/09/a_debate_are_mo.html

Page takes no position and recounts information from both sides. Makes a reference to http://www.firstthings.com/article/2008/09/003-is-mormonism-christian-31

BBC Religion Information Pages

http://www.bbc.co.uk/religion/religions/mormon/beliefs/christian.shtml

Page takes no position and recounts information from both sides.

Contemporary Mormonism

Social Science Perspectives

Edited by Marie Cornwall, Tim B. Heaton, and Lawrence A. Young

from http://www.press.uillinois.edu/books/catalog/62hka9hf9780252069598.html

Two fundamental questions run through these essays. Each author presumes that Mormonism is a distinctive religious phenomenon. The questions are, how distinctive is Mormonism and why?

"...Mormonism realized and elaborated a religiocultural system that separates it from every other currently existing manifestation of the Judeo-Christian tradition."

"the very facts that distinctions must be made in descriptions of the development of male and female Saints denotes a crucial difference between Mormonism and more traditional forms of Christianity." — Preceding unsigned comment added by Avanu (talk • contribs) 01:15, 1 April 2011 (UTC)

Wow these collections of sources seem to prove my point. Thank you. First of all, the Catholic, Lutheran, etc, sources really don't matter because what Mormonism is is not determined by those outside of it. The other sources you quote do not say that the LDS Church is not Christian, only that it is outside of traditional Christianity. No one is arguing that Mormons are "traditional" or "orthodox" Christians. However, I have yet to see a scholarly source which says they are not Christian. Ltwin (talk) 01:35, 1 April 2011 (UTC)

I'm not getting into an edit war over this. Someone else can remove the weasel wording that has been placed in the introduction. Ltwin (talk) 01:39, 1 April 2011 (UTC)

What other kind of wording is reliable then? To use the word "is" declares that it is so. But since people seem to be asking for outside sources, because apparently religious sources won't do (for some reason), the only thing we are left with is people who probably don't care. How do you properly reconcile a non-religious statement like "...Mormonism realized and elaborated a religiocultural system that separates it from every other currently existing manifestation of the Judeo-Christian tradition." ? I'm not interested in an edit war either, but the sources seem to all declare this particular religion is unique. So it seems simplest to simply say "this is who they say they are". How is that biased? -- Avanu (talk) 01:44, 1 April 2011 (UTC)

What if I wrote in the introduction to Catholic Church: "The Catholic Church (aka Roman Catholic Church) sees itself as a worldwide Christian Church in communion with the Bishop of Rome"? The implication is that it's not true—that they are not Christian. It would not be tolerated if phrased that way at that article or at Eastern Orthodox Church or at Anglicanism or Lutheranism or Arianism or Unitarianism, etc., and it shouldn't be tolerated here. Ltwin (talk) 01:53, 1 April 2011 (UTC)

The reasons "religious sources won't do" is the same reason fundamentalist Protestant sources don't do for determining weather Roman Catholicism is a Christian tradition or the whore of Babylon. Ltwin (talk) 01:59, 1 April 2011 (UTC)

What is interesting here is that several of you keep saying it doesn't matter what other people say about LDS. To quote DreamGuy from above "LDS Mormons are clearly Christian in that they believe in Christ as Messiah. The fact that some more popular Christian sects don't believe they are "true" Christians is meaningless."

Yet when I provide a source, edited by LDS scholars and non-LDS scholars, used by students at Brigham Young University, before I can even finish adding the attribution, you guys remove it as biased. Who is it biased against to describe them as they describe themselves. I think you are looking at this with a biased POV if you think that such a thing is biased, and if you want it ONLY as they themselves see it (which is what I gave you anyway). We don't deal in Truth in Wikipedia, we deal in what Reliable Sources say. Reliable sources say Mormons ARE Christian *and* Reliable Sources (non-religious) say they are not, so what am I supposed to have here? A definitive, declarative statement (like you seem to prefer) or one that reflects what Mormons say without coming off as negative? -- Avanu (talk) 02:04, 1 April 2011 (UTC)

From your example:

"is a restorationist Christian religion" (many claim Mormons are not Christian, but some consider them Christian)(disputed as being too certain about itself) "is a worldwide Christian Church in communion with the Bishop of Rome" (some claim Catholics are not Christian, but generally they are considered Christian)

That's the difference. Your asking for wording that ascribes a dead-set certainty. Yet the available sources I am finding are not in agreement with that conclusion. You ask me to disregard the religious-based sources, so in looking at what is left, we find:

• "separate from every other currently existing manifestation of the Judeo-Christian tradition"
• "crucial difference between Mormonism and more traditional forms of Christianity"

So what kind of logical basis do you want? I used almost *direct* wording from the Encyclopedia of Mormonism. This is allowed as a textbook at BYU and was created as a reference guide to Mormonism. You're accusing me of bias, because I'm not letting you off the hook to put wording that is certain of itself, rather than faithful to the sources we have. -- Avanu (talk) 02:26, 1 April 2011 (UTC)

I don't know what you are trying to come off as. I know what I thought when I read your edit: "This is a sly way to avoid saying that they are Christian." I'm not assuming bad faith. I'm sure you are trying to help, but the phrase "The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints ... sees itself as God's latter-day restoration of the fulness of Christian faith and practice" is POV and weasel wording. The fact that many don't consider them "real" is covered in the article, and perhaps, a sentence should be added to the lead which notes that many Christians question weather they are Christian. However, rearranging the opening sentence in such a way so as to avoid stating that it's a Christian religion is not the way to note that the LDS Church is outside the mainstream. Ltwin (talk) 02:25, 1 April 2011 (UTC)

"This is a sly way to avoid saying that they are Christian." Are we saying they *are* Christian? Is that your point of view or do we have a reliable source that ascribes this definition to them? For example, should we change the lead in the Branch Davidian article from this first paragraph (as it is now), to the second paragraph?:

The Branch Davidians (also known as "The Branch") are a Protestant sect that originated in 1955 from a schism in the Davidian Seventh Day Adventists ("Davidians"), a so-called reform movement that began within the Seventh-day Adventist Church ("Adventists") around 1930.

The Branch Davidians (also known as "The Branch") are branch of millenianist Protestant Christians that originated in 1955 from a schism in the Davidian Seventh Day Adventists ("Davidians"), a so-called reform movement that began within the Seventh-day Adventist Church ("Adventists") around 1930.

I'm certainly not going to call Mormons a sect or cult. But using such a declarative statement when that status is so disputed seems clearly POV-pushing to me. -- Avanu (talk) 02:36, 1 April 2011 (UTC)

I'm not actually sure what the difference between those two are? Unless you are referring to the word "sect" which is discouraged according to WP:weasel wording and should be changed as in every day language it carries a negative connotation; however, in a technical sense the word "sect" does not necessarily imply negativity. So follow Wikipedia policy; however, we're not here to discuss Branch Davidians. Ltwin (talk) 02:54, 1 April 2011 (UTC)

It is not disputed in reliable sources. Academics who study religion consider them a Christian group. What more do you want? You can't manufacture a dispute, it has to exist in reliable sources.Griswaldo (talk) 02:40, 1 April 2011 (UTC)

From the sources that I have found so far, it seems to be that Mormonism is considered at the very *least*, outside the traditional, so presenting it as just another run-of-the-mill group seems a bit POV when sources say otherwise. The dispute seems to be clearly there in reliable (non-religious) sources. I spent 20 minutes looking and quickly found that to be the case. Please someone actually provide source(s) that show otherwise if you like. Otherwise, let the language show what the sources say. -- Avanu (talk) 02:50, 1 April 2011 (UTC)

Who said anything about run-of-the mill? Yes they are much more unorthodox on the spectrum of Christian groups, but they were born out of Protestantism and that's a historical fact. Controversy only comes from some other Christians who do not want to recognize them as Christian, but scholars of religion, even those who also consider them a new religious movement, consider them a Christian one. Your sources don't say what you claim they do. The scholarly sources are indeed calling it an unorthodox Christian sect, and the BBC and the Boston Globe aren't addressing the matter in a relevant manner. What they are addressing is the religious controversy within Christianity about how to categorize Mormons, and not within academia or secular scholarship. Here's a pretty standard social science perspective. If you want a list of sources I can provide them. Cheers.Griswaldo (talk) 03:02, 1 April 2011 (UTC)

The source Avanu provided (Encyclopedia of Mormonism page 277-278) says "The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is distinguished from other Christian churches in several fundamental ways." It definitely and unambiguously considers them Christian. Ltwin (talk) 02:54, 1 April 2011 (UTC)

Source for that conclusion? I went and read it.

The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints does not see itself as one Christian denomination among many, but rather as God's latter-day restoration of the fulness of Christian faith and practice. Thus, from its earliest days LDS Christians sought to distinguish themselves from Christians of other traditions. Other forms of Christianity, while bearing much truth and doing much good under the guidance of the Holy Spirit, are viewed as incomplete, lacking the authority of the priesthood of God, the temple ordinances, the comprehensive understanding of the Plan of Salvation, and the nonparadoxical understanding of the Godhead. Therefore, the designation "saint" reflects attachment to the New Testament church, and also designates a difference from Catholic, Eastern Orthodox, and Protestant Christianity in the current dispensation.

From Encyclopedia of Mormonism, Macmillan, 1992 ( http://eom.byu.edu/index.php/Christians_and_Christianity )

Now please tell me HOW my words are biased when they were almost verbatim from what is inarguably a reliable source? (and in context as well) -- Avanu (talk) 03:05, 1 April 2011 (UTC)

Because you use weasel words. Ltwin (talk) 03:09, 1 April 2011 (UTC)

So the source must be weaseling too I guess since I simply quoted from there. Not sure how to make ya happy, but I did try. Figured such a source was unimpeachable, and quoting faithfully from it was reasonable in light of your disapproval of the first-try edit. -- Avanu (talk) 03:14, 1 April 2011 (UTC)

No it's the way you are reading the source. The source is saying the LDS church "sees itself" as the only true Christian church. The source is not saying that the LDS church "sees itself" as Christian. The source assumes they are Christian (thus phrases such as "from its earliest days LDS Christians sought to distinguish themselves from Christians of other traditions"). Ltwin (talk)

What I don't get is what you're trying to prove with that source. It does identify Mormonism as Christian.Griswaldo (talk) 03:16, 1 April 2011 (UTC)

To answer you both, they say they are different from all other Christian churches. They do not say "we are Christian" in the source, they say "God's latter-day restoration of the fulness of Christian faith and practice." Then, as shorthand, they say the term 'LDS Christians'. So traditional Christians say they are a danish. Mormons say they're the danish, but the rest are all doughnuts. It is like everyone is in agreement that Mormons are not the same, but you want to apply a term to make them sound the same, despite sources which say they are not.

To quote Caddyshack, which I've never actually seen, but the quote seems to apply: "The Zen philosopher Basha once wrote, 'A flute with no holes, is not a flute. A donut with no hole, is a Danish.' He was a funny guy." -- Avanu (talk) 03:26, 1 April 2011 (UTC)

No the sources say they are a weird kind of danish (if danish = Christian), not that they are a donut. That's the issues. You are twisting it to high heaven and I have no idea why. You realize that most Christian groups, except the very liberal and ecumenical ones, believe that other Christians aren't "true Christians" as well right? That only their group has discovered the right way to worship, etc.? And yes, once again, as this goes the LDS is as far afield of the others as possible but that doesn't mean they don't belong to the same general family. Most scholars treat them that way, we should to.Griswaldo (talk) 03:29, 1 April 2011 (UTC)

Avanu, the source clearly considers them Christians. Your statement that "It is like everyone is in agreement that Mormons are not the same, but you want to apply a term to make them sound the same, despite sources which say they are not," to me clearly shows a bias against Mormonism. No one is saying that Mormons are Nicene Christians only that they are Christians. There are many different kinds of Christians. Ltwin (talk) 03:32, 1 April 2011 (UTC)

Gris, it hasn't been my experience in general that traditional Christians reject each other's baptism, which seems to be a central point in their dispute over whether they consider each other Christian. (although I have seen it, so I agree it does occur). I think I'm just stuck on the absolute certainty sounding term in the Lead, and feel it doesn't line up with what is being reported/sourced/said, etc.

Ltwin, "everyone is in agreement that Mormons are not the same" includes the statements from Mormons. I wasn't leaving their 2 cents out of that statement.

Also, I think I'm done on this article for today. I will pursue more research at some point, it seems fairly evident that the POV is debatable, but I'm not feeling up to doing all that work at the moment and I need to actually get work done for real life too. Thanks for the feedback, comments, discussion, etc. It is definitely an interesting topic. -- Avanu (talk) 03:37, 1 April 2011 (UTC)

We don't define who is or is not "Christian" based on who does or does not accept each other's baptisms. I responded to you at the NPOV/N about this issue, though it was after the IP asked to move the discussion here. See Believer's baptism, because the issue is not as straight forward as you seem to think. All other Christians do not "accept" all other Christian forms of baptism. That's simply not true. If anything, the fact that Mormons also baptize, regardless of how other's view that baptism, is a strong indication that that they are Christian, because that's one of the things that Christians do. Cheers.Griswaldo (talk) 12:52, 1 April 2011 (UTC)

For all of the people who are arguing, please read this carefully (feel free to read the rest of the article as well):

Why would anyone say such a thing? Isn’t the name of our church The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints? Do we not worship Christ? Is not the Book of Mormon another testament of Jesus Christ? How could anyone seriously doubt that Latter-day Saints are Christians?

The purpose of this article is to help you understand why some people make this accusation. Knowing that, perhaps you can be more comfortable and knowledgeable in dealing with such views when you hear them expressed. [...] This article is meant to provide information and understanding rather than ammunition for disputes.

Robinson, Stephen E. "Are Mormons Christians?". lds.org.

Thank you. – Ajl^talk 21:00, 2 April 2011 (UTC)

Focus on improving the article

The debate on "is it Christian" is getting both circular and endless. Please note Wikipedia, including Wikipedia talk pages, are not forums to advance original research or theories. To borrow from summarization of a recent arbitration discussion:

Article talk pages should not be used by editors for proposing unpublished solutions, forwarding original ideas, redefining terms, or so forth. Although more general discussion may be permissible in some circumstances, it will not be tolerated when it becomes tendentious, overwhelms the page, impedes productive work, or is otherwise disruptive.

Responses on this line of discussion, in any section, that aren't explicitly couched in terms of improving the article (such as by discussing wording, additions/removals of text) using reliable sources in their basis will be removed. That means avoiding original research or synthesis, especially when religious texts such as the bible are used. tedder (talk) 23:22, 31 March 2011 (UTC)

Reliable sources on this subject give us several views to choose from. Shall we include all views? Or shall we, as you say, synthesize or distill a phrase that incorporates all views? I don't have a perfect answer, but as long as people are willing to debate this in a civil tone and willing to research, I don't think it is our place to curtail the discussion. -- Avanu (talk) 23:31, 31 March 2011 (UTC)

Feel free to use reliable sources and achieve whatever consensus you'd like for placing specific text on the article. However, giving synth/original research on definitions that are related to the concept of this article are not. tedder (talk) 00:09, 1 April 2011 (UTC)

As people are wont to say, "I don't have a dog in this fight." I am simply giving discussion advice. Lay off the lecture please. The information above is neither synth or OR, it is common and easily researchable and my discussion advice was merely focused on the specific question being asked. -- Avanu (talk) 00:20, 1 April 2011 (UTC)

Please ease off with the condescension. The lecture was to explain the instruction I have given with my admin hat on. tedder (talk) 01:34, 1 April 2011 (UTC)

Not my intention to condescend. I came to the page just today in order to provide another perspective, and it seemed (based on the indentions) that you were replying to me. Since I just got here, I thought it seemed a bit premature to characterize my Talk page contributes as 'circular and endless'. I might have simply misunderstood, my apologies for not phrasing things well enough in my reply to you. -- Avanu (talk) 01:48, 1 April 2011 (UTC)

Ahhh. I see what you are saying. This isn't in response to you or even specifically this section- it's in response to all the replies that are flying back and forth about "Christian or not". They aren't all in this section. I'll update the sections and text slightly to reflect this. tedder (talk) 02:44, 1 April 2011 (UTC)

Ideally, we would find wording that neither commits to one of the points of view, nor deprecates it by making it seem to be a dubious claim. I suggest something like this:

The church classifies itself as a Christian religion.(ref to official church statement) Among scholars and other churches that address the question, opinion is divided: some agree with the Christian designation, and others assert that its teachings place it outside Christianity.(footnote to notable opinions on both sides)

Thoughts? alanyst ^/talk/ 03:07, 1 April 2011 (UTC)

Opinion is hardly divided among scholars, and the POV of other Christians is not germane here. If it was there would be no Christian groups, only those that "consider themselves Christian". For all of its difference from most Christian sects, scholars are for the most part content to call Mormonism Christian. Cheers.Griswaldo (talk) 03:12, 1 April 2011 (UTC)

I like you Gris, but source this please. (if you like, I'm not going to insist) "Opinion is hardly divided among scholars" -- Avanu (talk) 03:27, 1 April 2011 (UTC)

Avanu I gave you a source above already -- [2] (if you think it looks unreliable I assure it it is not. It is an online version of a printed text, written by leading sociologists of religion). Here's another: Benjamin Beit-Hallahmi, The Illustrated Encyclopedia of Active New Religions, Sects and Cults, "Mormons - Officially known as The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints (LDS), and often as simply LDS or Saints (non-members are known as Gentiles), this is a 'U.S. Christian polytheistic millenarian group." Both the OED and Britannica call them Christian, despite the rabid misinformation the IP is spreading.Griswaldo (talk) 12:36, 1 April 2011 (UTC)

Griswaldo, your source http://hirr.hartsem.edu/ency/Mormomism.htm looks quite good, but the article does not declare mormons to be belonging to the Christian family, like we do in the article. In the given article it is defined as a "restorationist" movement. That is different than what the WP article says "a restorationist Christian religion". What makes it confusing to readers, and not clarifying, is that the expression "restorationist Christian religion" is linked to two WP articles, one of them being christianity. Readers might get a wrong impression from that, since Restorationism_(Christian_primitivism) would be enough. From thereon people could be referred to christianity, so we would have indirection. --217.5.199.242 (talk) 13:44, 1 April 2011 (UTC)

You must be joking. Here is what the sources says. "In its Christian primitivism and antinomianism, it was akin to many other "restorationist" movements, such as the Campbellites ..." What about "Christian primitivism" eludes you here? The source goes on to say - "During the first few years, the theology of Mormonism, while innovative in certain respects, was not remarkably different from that of its sectarian cousins on the "left" of the Christian spectrum of the time, particularly in its theodicy, Christology, soteriology, and eschatology." This source adequately places Mormonism within the large Christian family, while also paying full attention to what makes it so unorthodox. Can you please stop the tendentious POV pushing.Griswaldo (talk) 13:57, 1 April 2011 (UTC)

Griswaldo: Not explicitly like we do. If the author wanted to strengthen that mormons are part of christianity, why didn't he/she declare them to be a christian religion in the article you provided?

I am pretty sure about the reason the author didn't and that is because of the fact that mormons' belonging to christianity is disputed. And that not only protestantism is unwilling to consider Mormons as part of the Christian family, but eastern orthodox churches, the roman-catholic church and some scholars as well, doesn't make the Wikipedia article more convincing. --217.5.199.242 (talk) 14:21, 1 April 2011 (UTC)

(ec) I'm trying to find wording that someone with a "yes, they're Christian" POV and someone with a "no, they're not" POV could both read and say, "Yeah, that's accurate." Picking one side or the other won't do since the definition of the label Christian is a highly subjective one for which no scholarly consensus can be said to exist. alanyst ^/talk/ 03:29, 1 April 2011 (UTC)

Let me address the criticism of some, by first stating, that the Oxford English Dictionary and the Britannica are no references of original research or theories, but accepted and reliable sources for definitions. If those two disagree with Wikipedia, Wikipedia really has to give good explanations why we call mormons christians. Now some users have pointed to sources of major christian denominations, like lutherans and catholics voices. Then some said they cannot define what is christian, which is not fully correct, because they are part of christianity (nobody would doubt that), and what is christianity is defined by a normative consensus among christians (including catholics and lutherans), and to a great part by theologians, because they have deeper knowledge about christian history, traditions and fundamental basis of faith. One of these expert sources is the Theologische Realenzyklopädie in german, one of the biggest encyclopedias in theology, whose editors come from all around the world, not just from Germany. And in this widely accepted encyclopedia, mormons are not seen as part of christianity. So how can we oppose to Britannica, OED and TR, all of which are expert references, by stating that mormons are christians because they call themselves so? Then anybody who calls himself christian, is a christian according to the definition of Wikipedia. That is what I would call full arbitrariness. --217.5.199.242 (talk) 07:21, 1 April 2011 (UTC)

IP, I'm sorry but you are full of misinformation. I just checked the OED. Do you care to know how it defined "Mormom"? "A member or adherent of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints, a millenary Christian sect founded in 1830 at Manchester, New York, by Joseph Smith." Britannica doesn't have any clear declarations in either direction, but it clearly places Mormonism within the Christian revivialist movement of the early 19th Century. For instance, "The religion Smith founded originated amid the great fervor of competing Christian revivalist movements in early 19th-century America, but departed from them in its proclamation of a new dispensation. Through Smith, God had restored the 'true church'--i.e., the primitive Christian church--and had reasserted the true faith from which the various Christian churches had strayed." Your theological arguments are becoming tendentious. We get it. You don't believe Mormons are Christians like yourself, and you base this on various theological arguments. You are very welcome to that view but we follow reliable sources here, not your theological opinion. Please stop treating this talk page like a forum.Griswaldo (talk) 12:36, 1 April 2011 (UTC)

I see now what your OED mistake was. What you linked to above is not the OED, it is Oxford's "World Dictionary". I have access to the OED through my academic institution and would not be able to link it in a way that others can see. Someone who also has access is welcome to verify what I wrote.Griswaldo (talk) 12:36, 1 April 2011 (UTC)

The Britannica only talks about the roots mormonism was coming from: competing Christian revivalist movements. You now want to tell me that this is a statement that shall lead us to define the LDS church to be christian? Because they were founded during a time of Christian revivalist movements we conclude that it is a christian religion? --217.5.199.242 (talk) 13:32, 1 April 2011 (UTC)

That's right, it only talks about it as a Christian revivalist movement, and it never says that it isn't Christian now. Using it as evidence that reliable sources claim the LDS church is not Christian is completely off base, and that is my point.Griswaldo (talk) 13:40, 1 April 2011 (UTC)

I was saying the Britannica doesn't define mormons to be a christian religion, which is correct. Also the Britannica article doesn't say mormons are a Christian revivalist movement like you claim, it speaks of a "religion [...] amid the great fervor of competing Christian revivalist movements." Whether that means mormons were found surrounded by competing Christian revivalist movements and themselves *not* one of them, or whether it means they are themselves seen as one of the competitors is not clear. The latter case would nevertheless not implicitly mean Britannica defining the LDS church to be a Christian religion. There is a difference between "Christian revivalist movement" and Christian religion. --217.5.199.242 (talk) 13:57, 1 April 2011 (UTC)

That does not mean that it isn't refering to it as a Christian religion. The exact classification of the LDS isn't not entirely agreed upon. Some prefer calling it a novel religious movement, a "religion", some a sect, but no one in the Academy denies its connection to Christianity. If you read on in the source I quoted above you'll see exactly who the objectors to the Christianity connection are. "Since then, mainstream Protestantism, especially the more evangelical and fundamentalist varieties, has generally been unwilling to consider Mormons as part of the Christian family, despite the continuing Mormon claims to being the one, true, authentic church of Jesus Christ, restored to usher in a new dispensation of the fullness of the Gospel." We already know this. Many Christians do not believe they are Christian, but we don't write from the religious perspectives of many Christians. You are rather clearly arguing from such a perspective however. I will not engage in this discussion any longer. I will revert any disruptive attempts to push this POV into the article itself. Otherwise I will ignore your talk page forum posts. Cheers.Griswaldo (talk) 14:05, 1 April 2011 (UTC)

So what you are trying to say, Griswaldo, is this: We write from the perspective of a small minority (mormons) and their self-belief as christians. That is: We ignore the majority of christians, and what they define as essentials of their religion. Honestly, I don't think this is a good way of writing encyclopedic articles, especially since it's not just the majority of christian churches, who see mormons differently, but a fair amount of scholars around the world. And even if scholars cannot find a final judegement on the issue, Wikipedia should not make the judgement instead and expose the mormons' view, by declaring them to be part of Christianity in the first sentence of its LDS church article. --217.5.199.242 (talk) 14:30, 1 April 2011 (UTC)

Someone here in this discussion tries to divide christians between "nicene christians" (those who accept the Nicene creed in 325) and non-nicene christians, of those who don't accept. I would like to acknowledge everybody that there is no such term as a "nicene christian", and that is where the mistake lies. Theologians see the Nicene creed as the minimal consensus of all christians in the world, and since mormons don't accept the creed, they don't belong to christianity. --217.5.199.242 (talk) 07:29, 1 April 2011 (UTC)

We certainly seem to have a lot of interested IP users, but if its not too much trouble, would you guys go register for an account? I'm not sure what Wiki etiquette says about suggesting that, so my apologies if I breached a protocol, but I think it would help in determining who is who. Thanks much. -- Avanu (talk) 14:09, 1 April 2011 (UTC)

In response to Oswaldo I have checked my Oxford English Dictionary, Second Edition as an electronic version and the OED's article about "mormon" goes as follows: "A member or adherent of a religious body, calling itself ‘The Church of Jesus Christ of the Latter-day Saints’, founded in 1830 at Manchester, New York, by Joseph Smith, on the basis of alleged Divine revelations contained in the ‘Book of Mormon’, which Smith professed to have translated by special inspiration from the original written on gold plates, miraculously discovered by himself." --77.191.216.54 (talk) 15:12, 1 April 2011 (UTC)

It's Griswaldo, and I am not sure about your edition, but the one I checked is the most up to date one available online (with a subscription or academic access).Griswaldo (talk) 15:17, 1 April 2011 (UTC)

Trying to use the OED to resolve the disagreement is silly, but I've got the same as Griswaldo through my work access:

A. n. 1. A member or adherent of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints, a millenary Christian sect founded in 1830 at Manchester, New York, by Joseph Smith.

— "Mormon, n. and adj.". OED Online. March 2011. Oxford University Press. 1 April 2011 <http://oed.com/viewdictionaryentry/Entry/122273>

VernoWhitney (talk) 15:35, 1 April 2011 (UTC)

What are your thoughts on this wording:

"The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (abbreviated as the LDS Church, and colloquially referred to as the Mormon Church) is a unique restorationist Christian religion"

-- Avanu (talk) 15:57, 1 April 2011 (UTC)

I have the same as Griswaldo and VernoWhitney through my university's library: "Mormon, n. and adj. Third edition, December 2002; online version March 2011. <http://0-www.oed.com.library.coastal.edu/Entry/122273>; accessed 01 April 2011. An entry for this word was first included in New English Dictionary, 1908." Ltwin (talk) 16:05, 1 April 2011 (UTC)

VernoWhitney: So what is your proposition? The minimal thing we should do is change the links in the first sentence like they are used in other articles about mormonism, e.g. mormonism or Latter Day Saint movement where "restorationist Christian religion/group etc." links to Christian primitivism and not to both Christian primitivism and Christianity. Besides this I would suggest that the article should be expanded in order to reflect the dispute among international scholars, and not just mention criticism from the roman-catholic church and other big churches. One of the criticisms that should be added in the "Comparisons with mainstream Christianity" section is that mormons believe in other scriptures than the Bible. --77.191.216.54 (talk) 16:06, 1 April 2011 (UTC)

This topic is not about improving the article, but it is about how to twist the article to meet the demands of anti-Mormons and those who have a narrow definition of Christian. A Christian is one who follows the teachings of Jesus of Nazareth. Anything else that is added to that definition is something that is defined by churches within Christianity, period. To go further with this topic is only to feed the behavior very similar to trolls. -^StormRider 16:21, 1 April 2011 (UTC)

Please keep the conversation civil. -- Avanu (talk) 17:02, 1 April 2011 (UTC)

And incidentally, StormRider, although accurate, the definition you give relies on a lot of assumptions. If it were that simple, then we could just look at a person and instantly know if they were a follower of Christ. Additionally, if it were that simple, we could just use the word "Christian" without any qualifiers on ALL religious articles where the believers indicate a belief in Christ. Unfortunately, in the real world, we can't write articles in such a black and white fashion if we are trying to keep in line with being a resource for knowledge. Simplistic descriptions and dismissiveness of scholarship only serve ignorance. -- Avanu (talk) 17:08, 1 April 2011 (UTC)

off-topic - please only discuss content issues on the talk page
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
I am not an anti-mormon, Storm Rider, I am a christian and for me it is important what defines christianity and what not. If we define christianity as those who believe in Jesus, then Islam could be called christian, since Isa (the arabic name of Jesus) is mentioned as a prophet in the Koran. If you only want to believe in the teachings of Jesus according to the Gospel, why do you include the Old Testament into your canon, and most importantly, why do you include the Book of Mormon into your canon? Besides that it is not just about my own opinion, or the opinion of anti-mormons. As I constantly said before it is about whether Wikipedia pays attention to the ongoing dispute in the academic world (not just for a few days, but since the 19th century) and within ecumenical christianity about mormons' self-belief as christians, or whether it takes over the point of view of mormons in its first sentence. I fully respect that mormons should be able to call themselves christians, I just don't want that they should be called so by an encyclopedia. And as you can see in the dictionaries and encyclopedias listed, whether they are against that attribution, or whether they let it open for debate, or whether they call them a chiliastic christian sect (which has a different connotation than a christian religion), none of them define mormons in the way WP does it right now. I understand that some people don't want exact definitions of christianity, since there is no single authority that is allowed to do so for all christians, but on the other side, I see so many critical points against common christian faith like the LDS church not interested in ecumenism and thus not part of the World Council of Churches, their non-acceptance of the Nicene creed, their understanding of theosis (men becoming Gods) and their belief in other scriptures than the Bible that it is hard for me to accept the definition the Wikipedia gives. There is so much exclusiveness members of the LDS church reserve for themselves, that we should go forward and not speak of a christian religion. --77.191.216.54 (talk) 17:20, 1 April 2011 (UTC) To characterize theological disputes between different types of believers as "academic disputes" is ridiculous. We do not characterize religious traditions based upon what other religious people claim about them, we follow reliable sources. In this case that means scholars of religion. This is a dead issue. Any attempts to disruptively push this POV into the entry itself will be reverted. Let's stop wasting our time with this.Griswaldo (talk) 17:42, 1 April 2011 (UTC) The argument on Islam is a red herring. Islam does not believe that Jesus was the Son of God; he was only a prophet, he was not crucified, and he was not resurrected. To use such an argument causes me to greatly discount your position because that is a favorite argument of really bad (i.e. not very intelligent) anti-Mormons. LDS believe that Jesus was the Son of God, born of a the virgin Mary, lived a perfect life, performed miracles, bled in the Garden of Gethsemane, was crucified on the cross for the sins of the world, descended into hell to teach those who died prior to his birth, was resurrected the third day, appeared to his disciples, returned to sit on the right hand of the Father, and will return a 2nd time in all his glory. Show me one group on the face of the earth that believes that and is not Christian? Any academic that narrow the definition down to a belief in theNicenen Creed and I will show you an apologist for one of the major religious groups of today. TheNicenen Creed is a 4th century doctrine, was not required for being a follower of Jesus by Jesus himself or any of the apostles. It issolelyy a doctrine of men without any direct foundation in the Bible. It is a doctrine of CHURCHES and it is definitely not a doctrine of Jesus Christ. If I am wrong, please show me that teaching in the Bible by Jesus and that of any of his followers were to be accepted by Christ that needed to believe this single doctrine. What you want to do with this narrow definition is define who belongs to the catholic church (small "c" on purpose). The LDS Church does not belong to the catholic tradition and has never claimed such a thing. The Church of Jesus Christ claims to be a full restoration of the church founded by Jesus. We do not believe in thNicenean Creed because we believe it is completely a doctrine of men and demonstrated by history. Requiring a belief in it is also an institution of men and not of God; it is required of those who belong to catholicism; we do not, but we fully, completely claim to worship the Lord Jesus Christ as our Lord and Savior. He is our sole path to return to the Father. That is Christianity and to say differently is to disagree with the Bible and Jesus Christ himself. -StormRider 17:50, 1 April 2011 (UTC)

(replay, never heard an answer above)What are your thoughts on this wording:

"The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (abbreviated as the LDS Church, and colloquially referred to as the Mormon Church) is a unique restorationist Christian religion"

-- Avanu (talk) 17:45, 1 April 2011 (UTC)

From Wikipedia Article on Christianity: "As the identification of the Messiah with Jesus is not accepted within Judaism, the Talmudic term for Christians in Hebrew is Notzrim ("Nazarenes"), originally derived from the fact that Jesus came from the village of Nazareth in Israel.[15] However, Messianic Jews are referred to in modern Hebrew as יהודים משיחיים (Yehudim Meshihi'im).

Interestingly, we see that Jews can strictly see Christians as a sect within Judaism known as Nazarenes. Few Christians self-identify as Jewish, but does this point relate to our current discussion? I'm not sure, just trying to come to a place of what seems like a reasonable wording. By the way, still no comment on adding the word 'unique' above. If I don't hear an objection, I'll go ahead and add it tomorrow, so I do expect that you won't revert it then. Thanks. -- Avanu (talk) 02:05, 2 April 2011 (UTC)

I'm not actually sure where you are going with the reference to Judaism. Please explain how it relates to this discussion? Judaism and Christianity have been separate religions for a long time. Messianic Jews are not considered Jewish (in the religious sense) by other Jews who consider them Christians because they believe Jesus is the Christ. Check the WP article's talk page for an idea of how vibrant the debate is over there.

I don't see how that comparison really applies here. Judaism is a religion that views the Christian claim that Jesus is the Messiah and Son of God as contrary to the nature of God. Thus, Jews who accept Jesus as God are viewed by other Jews as no longer being Jewish but Christian, despite the claims of Messianic Jews that they remain Jews.

In the case of this article, we have a religious group (the LDS Church) which believes that Jesus is God and call themselves the true church of Christ. Then we have many other religious groups who also believe that Jesus is God and they deny the claims of the LDS that they are 1)the true church and 2)that they are Christians at all.

In the first case, the dispute is over is it possible to be a Christian and a Jew at the same time. In the second case, it is a dispute over 2 groups that both believe that Jesus of Nazareth is the Christ. Ltwin (talk) 03:20, 2 April 2011 (UTC)

I would say that the 'second case' is a question over whether it is possible to be a Christian and Mormon at the same time. (just like the question over Jew and Christian at the same time)

In some ways of looking at things, you could call a Christian a Jew. (After all, the 'founder' of Christianty was a Jew). Let me present this a different way (and by the way, *still* no one has commented whether just adding 'unique' is ok).

If I say Christ is a guy who lived in Nazareth, and had a mother named Mary, and so on, but then I add in, "Jesus was an alien who was actually Xenu's brother (dictator of the "Galactic Confederacy"), is this still Christianity and can people who follow such a faith be called Christian? -- Avanu (talk) 03:37, 2 April 2011 (UTC)

Let me add, I find this debate a little odd. We say that those who defined 'Christian' for at least 1000 years of recorded Western history aren't reliable as sources for the definition of 'Christian', but a newer faith with revealed knowledge can add to that definition without a problem, and moreso, we are saying that the definitions provided by 'unbiased' scholars are superior sources to all of the above. This strikes me as somewhat silly given the item we are discussing. -- Avanu (talk) 03:42, 2 April 2011 (UTC)

But Mormons don't simply believe in Jesus so I don't know you are bringing up that argument. They believe that he is the Christ and that they are his church. This is why the debate "over whether it is possible to be a Christian and Mormon at the same time" is different from the debate over the possibility of being Christian and Jewish. In the latter case you are dealing with the question of whether believing that Jesus has a role as Messiah and God is compatible with being Jewish. In the case of this article, all sides agree that Jesus is the Christ and that he has a church; it's the details that are being fought over.

You cannot simply say that because Jesus was a Jew all Christians are Jewish in someway. Jesus was a Jew, but most of his followers today are Gentiles.

About your proposal: I don't have an opinion, but considering how touchy this article is I'd wait for more editor input. Ltwin (talk) 03:51, 2 April 2011 (UTC)

You do realize that Jew is both ethnic as well as a religious description? You can be ethnically Asian and religiously Jewish. -- Avanu (talk) 03:54, 2 April 2011 (UTC)

Yes, but in terms of Messianic Jews, the debate is over whether they are religiously still Jews. Just because you are born Jewish doesn't mean you can just believe what ever you want and still be considered true to the principles of the Jewish religion. "The Supreme Court of Israel has ruled that the Law of Return should treat Jews who convert to Messianic Judaism the same way it treats Jews who convert to Christianity.[25]" (Messianic Judaism) Ltwin (talk) 04:01, 2 April 2011 (UTC)

I simply mentioned the religious vs. ethnic distinction because of your mention of Jews and Gentiles. -- Avanu (talk) 04:19, 2 April 2011 (UTC)

Avanu, who has "defined 'Christian' for at least 1000 years"? Which one of the many hundreds of denominations? Ltwin (talk) 04:01, 2 April 2011 (UTC)

Despite their differences, Catholic, Orthodox, and Protestant had a common understanding of what being Christian meant. (despite the Catholic church wanting to excommunicate people for leaving their church) -- Avanu (talk) 04:19, 2 April 2011 (UTC)

But that doesn't take into account the many movements throughout the history of Christianity that have not agreed with Catholic, Orthodox, and Protestant ideas. They may have been suppressed and outnumbered by the 3 main branches. They may have lost the debate but they were in the debate. Just as Mormons are in the debate. Ltwin (talk) 04:46, 2 April 2011 (UTC)

Central to the religion of Judaism is the covenant God made with the Jewish people. That covenant involves worshiping God and only God. Thus, if an Asian decides to convert to Judaism that's possible, but he has to take on the responsibilities of the covenant. Christians are not Jewish because they do not follow the Mosaic Law which is an inherent part of the covenant. In Messianic Judaism, the Jewish laws and customs are voluntary and seen as cultural. Put that together with the worship of Jesus as God, other Jews question whether they are really Jews. The overwhelming consensus of the Jewish world considers them no longer Jewish but Christian. Ltwin (talk) 04:13, 2 April 2011 (UTC)

Christian thought is that Mosiac Law is being abided by via Jesus since all have fallen short. This places Christians inside the circle of Judaism if someone chooses to believe as such. My point is trying to say that somewhere, people generally decided to adopt a different designation, despite being part of or a continuation of the same religion. -- Avanu (talk) 04:19, 2 April 2011 (UTC)

The question we have to ask then is Mormonism morphing into a new religion distinct from Christianity? Many Christians surely think it is. However, that just makes them part of a struggle between Christians as to who represents and defines Christianity. They don't have to recognize each other as Christians, but the fact that they are arguing over issues such as the nature of Christ, the Godhead, the church, the canon and continuing revelation, legitimacy of baptism, etc., point to the fact that these are groups struggling within Christianity over how the religion will be defined. Ltwin (talk) 04:29, 2 April 2011 (UTC)

(now we're getting somewhere) :) Mormons seem to even disagree with Judaism as to what their common beliefs are. Jews believe in an Eternal God, rather than an Eternal Progression. Traditional Christians hold to the same belief, but believe that God may have 3 persons, or may be only God and Jesus is a separate being. In either case (Trinitarian or Non-), the concept of God being eternal is the same, it is just the fulness of God that is differed upon.

Regardless, I'm willing to stop debating if we simply toss a 'unique' in there, because it is in agreement with all sources, and it doesn't provide much bias, unlike what you claimed my other suggestions have been. -- Avanu (talk) 04:37, 2 April 2011 (UTC)

I thought your edits and comments suggested a bias towards a catholic (small c) consensus on how Christianity should be defined and delimited. It's not like that is horrible or anything. I'm Pentecostal and consider myself within the catholic tradition, and Mormonism to me personally is not truly Christian. However, I think its ludicrous to say that just because this consensus (which has always been challenged) was 1) made a long time ago and 2) that those groups who didn't conform in many cases were persecuted and suppressed and 3) that most groups that identify as Christian adhere to it today that it is somehow official and definitive and the end of the subject and that those outside of this consensus are thus not Christian. Ltwin (talk) 05:02, 2 April 2011 (UTC)

(Unindenting before this gets too ridiculous) I don't mean to interrupt the above discussion but, a few thoughts - Re: "unique" - I would object to this, partially because this is a very subjective assessment. What makes it unique? Couldn't unique be applied to almost every single Christian denomination? Most importantly for WP, what reliable source says that it is unique? Far better, imo, to qualify the type of Christianity (Restorianist Restorationist E gads, my spelling goes all pear-shaped late at night) which the current text already does and is more informative and matches better with the sources than the ambiguous "unique".

Second, Re: 'unbiased' scholars - Absolutely, for WP those sources are superior to sectarian (both LDS and non-LDS) theologians. That's the whole point of WP:RS, which is exactly the reasoning behind the existing consensus that has held for at least the last four years. Reliable academic sources, many which have been mentioned above by multiple editors and even more if you scan the discussion archives (for kicks, let me add another one - Encarta - Mormon), regularly place the LDS Church within Christianity. There's a reason religious study surveys like ARIS and ARDA and other religious censuses regularly include LDS in the larger Christianity group. But we have no academic source that puts it outside of Christianity (We have sources that don't say anything, but an absence of a definitive statement is not the same thing as a negative statement). That should be sufficient for us as editors - it is not for us to participate in the debate, only to report the debate and report the general consensus found in reliable sources. That is the question we as editors should ask, what do reliable sources say, and not debate in OR fashion amongst ourselves the definition of what is Christian. --FyzixFighter (talk) 05:11, 2 April 2011 (UTC)

FyzixFighter, I can't know whether you read the rest of this page above, but the answer to why 'unique' would be applied here is answered with Reliable Sources above. They are not simply Restorianist. They are uniquely different, and all sources say this. -- Avanu (talk) 05:52, 2 April 2011 (UTC)

I went and looked at that Encarta dictionary reference. It makes me laugh how simplistic it is.

Mormon

• Same as Latter-Day Saint ( sometimes considered offensive ).
• relating to Latter-Day Saints: relating to the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints

-- Avanu (talk) 05:56, 2 April 2011 (UTC)

Don't forget what it says right above the first definition: "Christianity". But you are right, it is laughable, but not unexpected for a dictionary definition. It makes as much sense, though perhaps a bit more, to base calling them Christian on that single reference, explicit as it may be, as it does to remove the label because, as the original anon-IP poster suggested, some other dictionary definition leave the question unanswered.

But to the more serious point, I have looked at the discussion above, but perhaps I'm not reading the cited sources the way that you are seeing them. What statements in which sources do you feel warrant saying "unique"? Why is "unique" necessary? What does including "unique" in the first sentence add to lead that isn't already there? I didn't mean to imply that they are simply "Restorationist" (I think I spelled it right this time), but that is the usual subcategory within Christianity in which they are placed and is similar to the articles on other Christian denominations. I think that for me, saying "unique" in the first sentence without any kind of qualification is too much like "teasing" the reader, which should be avoided in the lead. --FyzixFighter (talk) 09:01, 2 April 2011 (UTC)

All those of you who are trying to say that reliable sources all say that mormons are christians have not read the sources given above. If you count statistical surveys as profound sources of christianity and who belongs to it, you are wrong. The Britannica does not say mormons are christians (they discuss christian identity, but they don't define mormons to be christians), the Oxford English Dictionary in its Second Edition does not speak of a christian religion, although in its third edition it defines them to be a "chiliastic Christian sect" (if that is the term for a Christian religion, why didn't they just speak of a Christian religion then? Sect has a different meaning than religion, and the OED3 doesn't use words without careful thinking), the Theologische Realenzyklopädie, one of the most well-known encyclopedias of theology doesn't define them as christian, several english dictionaries do not, and moreover I just consulted one of the most prestigious scholarly sources of theology in english, the "Oxford Dictionary of the Christian Church". Its article "mormons" does not see them as a christian religion. What else do I need to bring forth to you, that you accept, that there is a great dispute in the academic world, and in mainstream christianity, that mormons are a part of Christianity? In german there is a fair amount of academic publications in history, theology and sociology, that negate mormons' self-belief as christians, and some continue to claim that there is no dispute and want to stop this discussion? My opinion about this is that some tend to ignore what is going on in the established academic world (and world means world, not just some marginal universities and institutes in the US). If for you Britannica and Oxford Dictionary of the Christian Church and Theologische Realenzyklopädie are not reliable sources for this subject, I don't know what anybody would call reliable. --77.191.216.54 (talk) 10:45, 2 April 2011 (UTC)

Besides this, FyzixFighter remarked, that there are no academic sources, that speak against them as a christian religion, and not just omit the term christian being applied. This is not true. There are quite a lot, that make negative statements and explain, why they don't see them as christians besides theologians of roman-catholic and lutheran universities. One of them is Theologische Realenzyklopädie, another is Biographisch-Bibliographisches Kirchenlexikon (www.bbkl.de) in its article "Smith, Joseph" refering to an english-language book by Mead "The Lively Experiment: The Shaping of Christianity in America". --77.191.216.54 (talk) 11:27, 2 April 2011 (UTC)

I have read each of your emminent sources for defining Mormon and chose to look up "Christian":

http://oxforddictionaries.com/view/entry/m_en_us1233018#m_en_us1233018

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/Christian

http://www.ldoceonline.com/dictionary/Christian_1

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/christian

Interestingly, none of the them provide a definition that excludes Latter-day Saints. Why would that be? Who should we believe now to define what is a Christian? I am very interested in your erudite answers. -^StormRider 13:24, 2 April 2011 (UTC)

Because none of the general dictionaries in any language go into details about faith or theories. That's why they are called general dictionaries, not specialized dictionaries. If you want to find an answer what makes up christian faith you should consult dictionaries of theology, not general ones. You can look up what means buddhism, hinduism, islam and you will not get a thorough answer from general dictionaries as well. General dictionaries don't aim to give completeness but rather accurateness. For completeness you need to consult other sources like academic journals, specialized dictionaries, encyclopedias etc. --217.50.53.36 (talk) 14:54, 2 April 2011 (UTC)

Storm Rider, and to your question about who should be consulted to about what is a christian I already gave a lot of sources for that. Please read my previous comments, that include specialized dictionaries you can consult (it would be preferable if you understand other languages than english, like german, french, italian, latin to understand foreign academic references. Some christian theologians even argue that those who are not able to read ancient greek and hebrew/aramaic cannot do serious exegesis (interpretation) of the Bible, since these are the original languages and any translation is faulty, but I wouldn't go as far as that. Muslim and jewish scholars are much stricter about the value of original languages than christians.). It is true that we don't have a single authority that can define what is christian, but that is true for all knowledge of mankind, there is never just one authorative source that all must believe in, but a plurality of sources. Christian faith is based upon essentials that its followers believe in. While these essentials are not strictly given by just one organisation, like a law from a sovereign state, and while there is dispute among christians like there is dispute about all theories in the world, we should not think that there is no normative consensus between christians and academic sources prove this. Disputes and arguments don't mean there is no answer. And I would rather like to see an answer that experts and the majority of christians accept, not an answer that is only accepted by a minority of scholars and mormons. --217.50.53.36 (talk) 15:15, 2 April 2011 (UTC)

If you have refernces in French, Italian, Japanese, or Arabic please feel free to provide them. If it is in Latin, I am sure I could make it out. Two, no I disagree with your premise that so called "theology" texts are the ideal reference. They are only "specialized" for specific doctrines of specific churches. A plurality of theology books means nothing more than a different references for the same doctrines or similar doctrines. They are not, nor thave they ever been references for ALL Christians. The references I provided you state clearly, unequivically what a Christian is. None of them exclude the LDS or their Church. -^StormRider 05:17, 3 April 2011 (UTC)

(afer ec): @anon-IP(s) First, as Avanu suggested above, would you please consider registering. It will make this discussion a bit easier. Second, since you have a preference for "Oxford Sources" then:

• "The Oxford Companion to the Bible" - Mormonism and the Bible - "Mormons in the modern world remain Bible-believing Christians..."
• "Oxford Encyclopedia of the Modern World" - Mormonism - "The first prophet of this restoration of original apostolic Christianity, Joseph Smith Jr. (1805–1844),..."
• "Oxford Encyclopedia of the Modern World" - Christianity - "For discussion of individual Christian denominations, see the following entries: Anglicanism; Catholicism; Church of England; Church of Ireland; Church of Scotland; Methodism; Moravians; Mormonism; Nestorian Christians; Orthodox Christianity; Pentecostalism; Pietism; and Protestantism.]"
• "The Oxford Companion to United States History" - Mormonism - "Initially the Book of Mormon and the doctrine of continuing revelation principally distinguished the LDS church from other forms of American Christianity." (emphasis mine - imo "other" implies that Mormonism is a form of American Christianity)
• "The Oxford Dictionary of the Christian Church" - United States of America, Christianity in - Latter-day Saints are included, which implies (at least to me) that the Oxford people consider them Christian

So I think it's safe to say that the people in charge of the Oxford publications do consider the LDS Church to be Christian. This is really starting to get old anon-IP(s) - we've provided a number of academic sources now that include Mormonism within Christianity. At best you've provided one or two dissenting statements from a theological sources that imo don't meet the standards for academic reliable sources given in WP:RS. --FyzixFighter (talk) 15:31, 2 April 2011 (UTC)

Well, it appears that tedder was right. This debate is intractable. I've seen a lot of ducks and although this one has a beak and webbed feet, it also has a strange tuft of hair and speaks in a voice like William Shatner. I'm not sure its a duck, but I can't find an ornithologist that you accept as a reliable source. I like a little more accuracy than I feel the article provides at present, but I'd rather not stay in an intractable discussion for eternity. I think for a bit I'll go off and see what more we have in Wikipedia. -- Avanu (talk) 15:43, 2 April 2011 (UTC)

Break

It is an LDS article. They believe they are Christian. The article should state that. For credibility, it should probably also add that "some" Christian groups dispute this claim. (They all do, but not really important for this article).

We get this sort of thing all the time. Don't make a bigger deal out of it than it is. English speakers call a body of water the "Sea of Japan." The Koreans hate this and call it the "Eastern Sea." And so it is....in Korean articles. All the rest use the "Sea of Japan." Let's not rant on endlessly about one reference over another. At the end of the day, there will still be two povs. Each must be satisfied in its own way. But the majority must be allowed to prevail in general articles. Student7 (talk) 21:52, 2 April 2011 (UTC)

I just realized something. I know of no other Christian or Judaic religion that teaches "eternal progression" or exaltation - the ideas that God was once a man, and that men may become Gods. This is a significant divergence, and could be said to leave behind the common belief of Monotheism that is a part of Christianity. -- Avanu (talk) 05:51, 3 April 2011 (UTC)

That's your pov though. I could have a pov that Jesus' life is a perfect example of exaltation. So that fact alone doesn't really mean anything. The Trinity "could be said to leave behind the common belief of Monotheism" but we don't say that Trinitarian Christians are polytheists just because non-Trinitarian Christians, Judaism and Islam have a different idea of monotheism. Ltwin (talk) 17:51, 3 April 2011 (UTC)

Indeed, and so were the arguments about baptism. Avanu, I have to say this, but you're making a lot of original speculations here. We have sources. We know what they say. The talk page isn't for our own original analysis about what does or does not qualify as Christian. Cheers.Griswaldo (talk) 18:03, 3 April 2011 (UTC)

The idea that I'm making this up, and it is simply my POV is frankly obtuse to the point of stubborness. It isn't my point of view that Mormons have a teaching that "As man is, God once was; as God is, man may become." This is unequivocal. And it is something that no other Christian or Judaic religion teaches. I'm not making original research or original speculations, and honestly if that is your response to well-researched material, then I have no choice but to assume that you simply don't want to hear anything.

I really don't understand your unwillingness to pursue the subject when faced with clear evidence. A powerful feature of Judaism is the idea that they have one God whom they have a covenant with. ("Thou shalt have no other gods before me.") This understanding is a part of Christianity. The understanding of God for Trinitarians is that God is the same, but has different personas. That is the connection to Monotheism. The question to ask upon finding this fact with LDS, is how are they *also* Monotheists, or are they not.

My impression is that some editors are simply acting dismissively. The evidence of differentiation is unquestionable, the problem I see is an unwillingness of other editors to accept any of it. -- Avanu (talk) 18:26, 3 April 2011 (UTC)

No one said that you made that part up. It is your own original claim that 1) this means they are not monotheistic and 2) that this fact means they are not Christian. A whole lot of Jews and Muslims say that trinitarian Christians are not truly monotheists, but that doesn't mean that we say that Christianity is not a monotheistic religion. What matters, btw, is not whether or not reliable sources say that they are Monotheists. What matters is that sources say they are Christian. I have a source right here by my desk that calls them a "Christian polytheistic millenarian group," so the "not monotheistic" notion isn't completely novel -- though I have no idea if your reasoning of why is shared by my source. If you have good reliable sources that discuss the polytheism aspect then figure out ways to propose content changes, but don't use them to make your own original arguments about whether or not the group is Christian. The baptism issue was of a similar ilk. Cheers.Griswaldo (talk) 18:56, 3 April 2011 (UTC)

The only thing I am arguing for at this point is to add the word "unique". The arguments you (plural) have presented are substantive enough that it leads me to the conclusion that we can't take out the word "Christian". However, given the differentiation shown by sources, they are not your typical restorationist or Christian religion. -- Avanu (talk) 19:11, 3 April 2011 (UTC)

Do the sources say that they are a "unique Christian religion/sect"? All sects are unique by definition. You want to highlight the uniqueness. Great, supply the sources. That's really the only way to move forward. My objection is that you are not supplying sources just making your own arguments. I don't mean to sound harsh but you have to provide sources. Cheers.Griswaldo (talk) 19:16, 3 April 2011 (UTC)

Yes, the sources do say that, and I've shown/presented those above. My question was simply if I am going to get reverted if I add that one word in. I don't want to do it if we're just going to be back here debating it in 5 minutes. -- Avanu (talk) 19:19, 3 April 2011 (UTC)

Avanu said: "The question to ask upon finding this fact with LDS, is how are they *also* Monotheists, or are they not."

What are you talking about? I would highly recommend you read the following article before continuing (particularly the section entitled "Exclusion by special definition"). – Ajl^talk 19:02, 3 April 2011 (UTC)

For all of the people who are arguing, please read this carefully (please feel free to read the rest of the article as well):

Why would anyone say such a thing? Isn’t the name of our church The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints? Do we not worship Christ? Is not the Book of Mormon another testament of Jesus Christ? How could anyone seriously doubt that Latter-day Saints are Christians?

The purpose of this article is to help you understand why some people make this accusation. Knowing that, perhaps you can be more comfortable and knowledgeable in dealing with such views when you hear them expressed. [...] This article is meant to provide information and understanding rather than ammunition for disputes.

Robinson, Stephen E. "Are Mormons Christians?". lds.org.

Thank you. – Ajl^talk 21:00, 2 April 2011 (UTC)

Sorry to say, Ajl772, but the other editors have already struck down that sort of source as being unacceptable in this debate. But honestly with regard to the argument made in that quote, it is EXTREMELY poor argumentation. A great example of names not representing what seem to is found in politics. I could have a group called "Foundation for a Traditional America" that wants to institute Communism. Euphemistic and misleading names are not new. So an appeal that says "well it is in our name" is not at all a reasonable or convincing argument. What is most important is the actions or beliefs, not the name. -- Avanu (talk) 19:11, 3 April 2011 (UTC)

No, what is most important is what the expert sources say. Period. This is getting close to hat worthy as off topic. Cheers.Griswaldo (talk) 19:13, 3 April 2011 (UTC)

A bit of an argumentative answer, Gris, but yes, in Wikipedia, what expert sources say is what matters. That was a bit off the point from what I was explaining to Ajl772 above, but yes, to reiterate, in Wikipedia, what expert sources say is what matters. -- Avanu (talk) 19:18, 3 April 2011 (UTC)

I'm sorry about that but I'm getting a bit exasperated. I mean that much of this conversation is hat worthy/off topic. We need to focus on what sources say and find ways to improve the article based on those sources, instead of these hypothetical discussions about what is or is not Christian (or unique). Thanks.Griswaldo (talk) 19:21, 3 April 2011 (UTC)

Some of you are making it harder than it ought to be, I think. But how about in future, I'll just bring a source each time I bring a comment. I'm really not certain why there is such a hard line opposition to including minor changes when the (non-religious)(social science) sources that I have found support those changes, but I can't read minds, so I suppose that's where we are at. -- Avanu (talk) 19:25, 3 April 2011 (UTC)

From that article I referenced (yes, I know you don't like it, but deal with it): "However, if a special definition is created under which Christian means “only those who believe as I do,” then others might claim Latter-day Saints aren’t Christians—but all this would really mean is that while Mormons believe in Christ, we don’t believe exactly as they do."

What exactly do you have a problem with there? The EXACT same can be said about other "Christian" religions by other "Christian" religions (and in fact, has been). Why do you refuse to accept that your POV is not the only POV? – Ajl^talk 19:32, 3 April 2011 (UTC)

Ajl772, its not that I don't like the article you presented. It is that the logic that just because a name includes a word, it must logically be compatible with that word. Is "Church of Christ" a church wherein Christ is preached? Maybe. But not necessarily. It is the name, not the behavior. This isn't about what I believe or do not believe, it is about sources. I believe the sources show a result and my fellow editors disagree that the sources presented show that result. This shouldn't become a personal "you believe this" or "I believe that" argument. It is about researching and finding reliable sources. -- Avanu (talk) 19:43, 3 April 2011 (UTC)

Agree. This is not a matter of "marginalizing" Mormons or making Mormons "feel bad." This is a matter of accepting two truths. One truth is that Mormons believe they are Christian. The other truth is that no other Christian religion accepts that. We use the Mormon one for Mormon articles. The non-Mormon one for non-Mormon articles (which is easy enough) and for general articles. The latter is a bit tough, but there are more non-Mormon reliable sources and members than there are Mormon ones.

This is not about winning an argument that cannot be won! Student7 (talk) 19:50, 3 April 2011 (UTC)

Just asking, but how do you have a 'Mormon' or 'non-Mormon' Wikipedia article? -- Avanu (talk) 19:56, 3 April 2011 (UTC)

There are three POVs here. 1) Mormons, 2) other Christians and 3) SCHOLARSHIP ON RELIGION. This has nothing to do with 1 or 2, and we don't write an encyclopedia based on 1 or 2 either. Griswaldo (talk) 20:39, 3 April 2011 (UTC)

Student7: It is not about winning. It is about giving a neutral point of view. We know the point of view of mormons, we know the one from the tradition churches. You seem to argue, that this is like a fight between the two. I don't want that. I want to pay attention to academics, that follow objectivity and find an answer to the question what christian faith defines and whether mormons follow this faith or not. Your suggestion is this: We just let anybody describe himself as christian, and then we as an encyclopedia define him to be christian because it is his own understanding and we cannot object. For me this is a form of surrender to the complexity of the subject. This leads to arbitrariness in religious subjects. And if we really find out that conflicting opinions cannot be brought to a conclusion, then we should just omit the information of christianity like some dictionaries given above do. --77.7.115.228 (talk) 20:34, 3 April 2011 (UTC)

Student7 said: "The other truth is that no other Christian religion accepts that."

I'm going to have to emphatically disagree with that. I have a source that says otherwise.

A slim majority of the public (52%) says that Mormonism is a Christian religion, while nearly one-in-three (31%) say that Mormonism is not a Christian religion. White evangelicals stand out for their view that the Mormon religion is not Christian: a 45% plurality says that Mormonism is not Christian, while 40% say it is. Among white evangelicals who attend services at least weekly, 52% believe that the Mormon religion is not Christian.
By contrast, large majorities of white mainline Protestants (62%) and white non-Hispanic Catholics (59%) say that Mormons are Christians. In addition, those with no formal religious affiliation also say that the Mormon religion is Christian by a wide margin (59%-25%).

— http://people-press.org/2007/09/25/public-expresses-mixed-views-of-islam-mormonism/3/

Therefore, I've thus proved that you are either (1) a liar, or (2) misinformed (I'll AGF and assume the second). Please check to make sure your statements are backed up before you make false accusations. Cheers! – Ajl^talk 22:38, 3 April 2011 (UTC)

I saw that and it looks like the Pew survey. The reason that I didn't use it as a source was because it represents a poll of the public, rather than a scholastic look at the religion. It *does* however present a viewpoint that regular people consider it a Christian religion. But according to some of my co-editors, we can't use these kinds of sources, because they aren't good enough. Also, AJL, please try and use less inflammatory terms. Just because someone expresses a different point than you doesn't mean they lied or had the intent to lie.-- Avanu (talk) 22:51, 3 April 2011 (UTC)

And even if we would use it as a valid source the problem about it is, that we should not judge based upon the opinion of a majority of people. Regular people are not authorative since they lack the competence theologians have. Rather than looking at what regular christians have to say about this question, I would like to see such a poll asking theologians about it. Besides all this the truth doesn't lie in statistics. We should not believe a statistical majority can define what is true and what not. We should cling to the better arguments, preferably coming from reliable sources by respected scholars, in order to use quality instead of quantity. --77.7.115.228 (talk) 23:08, 3 April 2011 (UTC)

Unfortunately, some of my fellow editors will not even allow the use of the opinions of 'theologians' in many cases. They claim bias there and accordingly will not permit it to be used as a source either. -- Avanu (talk) 23:12, 3 April 2011 (UTC)

You are right Avanu, there are quite some theologians who only apply the doctrines of their own churches on others. However, I would not go as far as calling all serious theologians as biased. Of course they have a certain perspective, but all scientists have a certain perspective, not just those in religions (you will not find professors in astronomy, that wouldn't believe in laws of nature, since that is what their science is based upon. However, if you are learned in philosophy you know that there have been debates and there are still debates going on about whether the laws scientists found in the world are universal and independent of them, or if they are man-made and only can be seen so by those who want to see them. Put in another way: scientists don't like chaos, they want to see order and reason in anything happening in the world, everything must be explained and put into a formula somehow. Whether the world is ordered or not, is a question of perspective and none can reach the archimedean point, so all is relative in our world, nothing is absolute.). I think theologians are the only ones that can define what christian faith is based upon based upon its history and its culture and practices in today's world, because this is an internal question of christianity. While outsiders sure can acquire an expert knowledge into christian faith, it is rare that someone coming from another profession can judge in areas he did not primarily study in. Nonetheless I wouldn't exclude such sources, as long as they are thorough and go into details. --77.7.115.228 (talk) 23:42, 3 April 2011 (UTC)

Some like Griswaldo see no point in continuation of this discussion as they think there are no expert sources that see mormons as falling out of christianity, which is absolutely wrong, because if it would be true, then OED2 and Britannica would clearly say so (and the other general english dictionaries given in the first section of this page as well). But they don't and OED3 says it's a millennian christian sect, which is different to the picture the article wants to give. There were sources of foreign languages too, which seemed not worthy to be discussed, which is not good academic and encyclopedic style. Academics rely on international sources, which you can also see in the amount of foreign-language specialized dictionaries on christianity (see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_encyclopedias_by_branch_of_knowledge#Religion). By ignoring authorities around the world, and focusing on US american statistical surveys, the article is biased, because we are not talking about a US specific subject, but as far as I can tell after looking at reliable sources non-english academics tend to be against mormons' inclusion into the christian family. The english Wikipedia should not be the forum of US point of view in rejection of the european view, but rather aim for a world view that accepts all different perspectives. --77.7.115.228 (talk) 20:19, 3 April 2011 (UTC)

I agree that this is a rather pointless discussion, but as someone brought it up, and there hasn't been any consensus on what to change it to, I think the need for more discussion needs to take place. – Ajl^talk 22:38, 3 April 2011 (UTC)

IMO the article is quite well-written, but the introduction should be made more neutral (not state that LDS church is a christian religion in the very first sentence without any clarification that this is disputed). Furthermore the criticism by mainstream christianity, which is included in the article already, should be widened to include the academic world. Not just traditional christian churches are against the classification, but also some theologians, sociologists and historians. As was shown before so many times, dictionaries and encyclopedias don't stress the point of a christian religion, but use more general terms like "a religious body or movement" or a "syncrestistic religion". Wikipedia should be restrained too, and not take position for something that is so greatly disputed. This is not a case about the rights of minorities to call themselves the way they want to, thereby using Wikipedia as a platform for their own purposes. This is a case about the credibility of Wikipedia as an objective encyclopedia. --77.7.115.228 (talk) 23:24, 3 April 2011 (UTC)

What's the point?

Ok, this is getting quite ridiculous. What was the initial problem sentence/paragraph, and what was the problem with it? Let's drop all discussion of whether or not the LDS Church is or is not Christian, since (apparently according to everyone in the world) it is not. Why not just change the entire page to an anti view? As this rate, it seems that would make everyone MUCH happier. – Ajl^talk 23:37, 3 April 2011 (UTC)

Be patient and rational please. Of course there are people that see mormons as christians. Furthermore you didn't get the point of the discussion. Wikipedia doesn't want to present a pro or anti view. Wikipedia wants to give a neutral view, based upon what the majority of authorative sources say. At least that's how I understand the principle of NPOV. --77.7.115.228 (talk) 23:46, 3 April 2011 (UTC)

I am being perfectly rational. You say: "majority of authorative sources". However, "based upon what the majority of authorative sources", Mormonism is not Christianity. Therefore, Wikipedia can not be allowed to present a "neutral" point of view, considering that NO authoritative sources say that Mormons/LDS are Christians. Since there are no authoritative sources that say Mormons/LDS are Christians (aside from the obviously Mormon/LDS POV that they are) the whole article needs to be re-written to support the only POV that is upheld by authoritative sources. – Ajl^talk 23:53, 3 April 2011 (UTC)

Actually, there *are* authoritative sources that we all have agreed on that do say that LDS Mormonism is Christianity. That's why we are at an impasse. I believe the preponderance of evidence shows that there is considerable questioning as to whether LDS is 'fully' Christian (whatever that means) or a unique type of Christianity or a sect or cult. Anyway, there are sources for both points of view, so we discuss. -- Avanu (talk) 00:04, 4 April 2011 (UTC)

Really? Where are they? I can't find any of them anywhere that do not have an obvious conflict of interest (i.e. being Mormon scholars).

Also, to refute your point "whether LDS is 'fully' Christian (whatever that means) or a unique type of Christianity or a sect or cult": the EXACT same can be said by ANYONE that opposes any other "Christian" religion: "Religion X is not a Christian region because they don't believe Y that we believe in". – Ajl^talk 00:10, 4 April 2011 (UTC)

Read the thread above, we've already covered a lot of sources at length. And you weren't refuting my point, by the way, I was making the same point. Oh my. -- Avanu (talk) 00:35, 4 April 2011 (UTC)

"I was making the same point." Really? I don't see that anywhere. Do you have a diff to show that? If you do, I will retract my statement. – Ajl^talk 00:42, 4 April 2011 (UTC)

Also, I've read the above threads to see where these sources are. I can't seem to find them. Would you mind pointing them out to this apparent idiot? – Ajl^talk 00:46, 4 April 2011 (UTC)

You're not an idiot, let me find that for you, one sec. -- Avanu (talk) 00:52, 4 April 2011 (UTC)

OK, a couple that I found quickly were:

StormRider 13:24, 2 April 2011 (UTC)

FyzixFighter (talk) 15:31, 2 April 2011 (UTC)

Also, I just noticed that you made an edit a few moments ago, to say that LDS consider themselves Christian. This was an edit that I initally proposed, but until the Talk page reaches a consensus on wording, people should avoid making such changes. (funny, it feels like I'm debating the opposite side now) -- Avanu (talk) 00:54, 4 April 2011 (UTC)

Ok, first off, the references provided by StormRider did not explicitly discuss Mormons, just Christians in general. The multiple various other sources provided refute that Mormons are Christians for various reasons. Second, the references provided by FyzixFighter are from several publications by a single source (Oxford). Obviously, Oxford is mistaken in this regard, since there are several hundred more sources that state the opposite.

Also, as is obvious from past history, there is not, nor ever will be, a consensus on what is considered NPOV regarding whether or not Mormons are Christians. So the only way that we can avoid future pointless debate about this is to say that Mormons consider themselves Christians.

Finally, let me state for the record that I have the POV that Mormons ARE Christians. – Ajl^talk 01:47, 4 April 2011 (UTC)

Well that was my idea originally from a few days ago, but the other editors vetoed that as a biased point of view. -- Avanu (talk) 01:58, 4 April 2011 (UTC)

My question is this: How is that biased? It's the only way to avoid pointless debate on whether they are or not, regardless of whether or not it's biased. – Ajl^talk

Ajl since you say that the preponderance of reliable sources say Mormons are not Christian, could you please mention some? Ltwin (talk) 02:53, 4 April 2011 (UTC)

Whoops, I still had this on my watchlist, so I'll answer you, though after this, I will no longer have it there (see below).

Per the lousy rationale above, I don't need to mention these sources, since they've already been mentioned before on this talk page.

– Ajl^talk 03:04, 4 April 2011 (UTC)

re 208.64.90.158

You reverted my edit, using the ES: "rv - I don't know if you're trying to make a WP:POINT but the majority of academic sources (as was shown on the talk page) also consider them Christian".

I see no majority of academic sources asserting that Mormons are Christians. What I do see on the talk page: Only ONE academic source considers them Christian (Oxford), and NUMEROUS academic sources stating otherwise. Yes, I am trying to make a point, and here it is:

Hope the rest of you have fun with this pointless debate. I am going to step out of this stupid discussion now. If you wish to contact me, do so at my talk page. Good luck. – Ajl^talk 02:43, 4 April 2011 (UTC)

Sources that contradict our definition of the LDS church as a christian religion

Because some of you deny that there are sources disputing the WP article's definition, let's provide some sources that don't say mormons are christians, as Ltwin requested, once again repeating what has been given above:

1. OED2 nowhere mentions that mormons are christians (I refer to the published version not available for free on the internet)
2. Britannica discusses a christian classification for mormons, but leaves the point open: http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/392525/Mormon
3. http://oxforddictionaries.com/view/entry/m_en_gb0534500#m_en_gb0534500
4. http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/mormons
5. http://www.ldoceonline.com/dictionary/Mormon
6. http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/latter-day+saint?show=0&t=1301492718
7. Theologische Realenzyklopädie (one of the most scholarly resources for christianity in german language denies mormons the attribution by stating the arguments given above already)
8. Oxford Dictionary of The Christian Church does not state mormons to be christians in its article "mormons", but does include them into the history of christianity in the United States of America. While this may be a clear classification for some, for me it is not.
9. http://www.ekd.de/ezw/Lexikon_103.php (an encyclopedia on religious movements by the evangelian church in Germany, authors tend do be very objective and critical and not biased)
10. http://www.bbkl.de/s/smith_j.shtml (BBKL is one of the international expert sources on biographies of religious persons of significance in history) expresses full rejection against mormons seeing the LDS church as a christian church with reference to Mead "The Lively Experiment: The Shaping of Christianity in America".
11. Dellwing "Die entprivatisierte Religion: Religionszugehörigkeit jenseits der Wahl?" sociological work, page 125, rejection by giving the argument of the Book of Mormon as another "holy scripture" besides the Bible.
12. Osterhammel "Die Verwandlung der Welt" historian's work about world history of the 19th century, p. 1270 states that it is disputed until today whether mormons are christians.

This was not all I could find, but I hope people stop being ignorant about academic disputes about the issue. The amount of sources should suffice. --217.5.199.242 (talk) 07:24, 4 April 2011 (UTC)