Talk:Dorothy L. Sayers

The Meaning of the Word 'Criticism'

The author(s) of this page evidently believe criticism means "to be critical of", ie, to criticize - in the sense that word is usually used, rather than in the sense it's used when referring to criticism in the arts. One would not believe, reading the criticism section, that anyone liked Dorothy Sayers at all. But here as I take up a collection of writings by the eminent cultural historian/critic Jacques Barzun, what do I find? Why, here's a tribute to Dorothy Sayers! He likes her immensely. Why is this, a warm reflection by a 90+ year old intellectual legend on the merits of a writer dead 40 years, any less relevant than the contemporary (ie, more likely to have somewhat ulterior motives) review of an Edmund Wilson? It's a wonder Dorothy Sayers even has a wikipedia page, dead so long as she's been, and having received nothing but such scathing reviews in her lifetime. Do you see the problem here?

Sayers' plays and the Final Lord Peter Piece

Both the biography and the bibliography are lacking Sayers' plays. (A brief mention of _The Man Born to be King_ is tied to the reference to C. S. Lewis.) In the booklet _Sayers on Holmes_ appears a brief radio address as by Lord Peter Wimsey, telling of his visit to Holmes when he, Wimsey, was a child; Sayers wrote it for a B.B.C. program (on Holmes' 100th birthday) after World War II--at a time when she was assumed to have given up Lord Peter altogether. --Joe R. Christopher

Australian Netguide

Congrats, this page was featured in the September 2006 issue of Australian Netguide!

Did Mac Fleming adopt John Anthony?

Query: I do not remember that Sayers and her husband ever actually adopted her son. There are letters where she says that Mac has agreed to the adoption, but I don't remember that he ever went through with it. Does anyone know specific details? --Joe R. Christopher

IIRC, no, Fleming did not adopt John Anthony. Sayers did not need to adopt him as he was her legal son by birth. I can confirm tonight (don't have Sayers biographies with me) JenKilmer 18:16, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

Inklings

About Sayers and the Inklings (below):

Lewis did write a letter (in response to John Wain's _Sprightly Running_)in which he said that Sayers probably never knew about the Inklings. But in the Sayers-Charles Williams correspondence, Williams read some of her letters about Dante to the Tuesday pub group (not quite the same as the Thursday evening Inklings) and reported the reactions to Sayers. This suggests some knowledge of the group around Lewis and Tolkien. --Joe R. Christopher

Dorothy Sayers

From article "Dorothy Sayers":

I have taken the quotation marks away from "motor car salesman" (about DLS' first husband) since I can't see what purpose they serve. If he was an unemployed motor car salesman, then the quote marks are uneccesary. If 'motor car salesman' is a euphemism for something, then it would be better to explain it, since it's not apparent from the quotations. Floyd

This would be better moved under Dorothy L. Sayers under which name she is much better known. At least a Redirect should be established for DLS -> here. Ah! One exists. Dorothy Sayers is nevertheless sub-optimal. user:sjc

Should the articles be combined? JenKilmer 18:16, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

Doctorate

Since the inaccurate "Dr" was added by a person who apparently has left (user:Isis) it would seem useless to inquire why it was added. So I'm removing it and putting in a note about her almost-doctorate, not a bad thing to mention anyway. Dandrake 00:28 9 Jul 2003 (UTC)

All right, it's not inaccurate, and has been restored, with a proper account of her doctoral history.Dandrake 17:05 13 Jul 2003 (UTC)

Anti-semitism

Someone else should look at what I added on anti-Semitism: I'm not a Sayers expert, though I like her work. Also, would it be reasonable to discuss class and regional bias in the books, or am I the only person who's noticed this (in which case it might fall under the "no original research" rule)? Vicki Rosenzweig 23:45, 16 Aug 2003 (UTC)

Vicki, who never seems to sleep, entered the preceding note while I was editing the following paragraph:

Since the question of anti-Semitism has been raised, I've put in my

own version, with an attempt to let both views be heard. I really don't want to get into an edit war about this. If anyone wants an uncritical defender of DLS's position, I'm not the one, as you can see from the second paragraph that I put in. So if I've swung the pendulum past the NPOV point, let someone re-balance the presentation. But the question must not be treated as if it were open-and-shut.

Now, I hereby free you of the onus of original research! Yes, in the matter of class and regional and national bias, it's not hard to put DLS's human race in concentric circles, with Jews at the fringe of England, and Americans beyond the pale, and hardly anyone else (besides the French) existing. It would be awfully nice if such subjects got more coverage. But this isn't the best place for that discussion, so I'm not sure how we get the NPOV properly established in the DLS article. BTW there are Yahoo mail-list groups LordPeter and DorothyLSayers. (The first is quite active, and the second resists all efforts to bring it to life.) Attempts at serious discussion are not out of place there. Dandrake 00:04, 17 Aug 2003 (UTC)

These comments are almost three years old. I wonder what threshhold is required to accuse a deceased person of anti-semitism without any documented proof. How about if we delete this entirely as of now? 69.109.182.238 07:03, 30 March 2006 (UTC)

I'm restoring the section saying that some of Sayer's characters express anti-Semitic views and that she portrays Jews in a manner that conforms to Jewish stereotypes. Both can easily be verified by reading her books. I'm not restoring the section saying that she wrote an anti-Semitic article or criticzed G.K. Chesterson for his anti-Semitism since, as you point out, there's no documentation given for either of these things.

Which books and which characters? Just show where. If I went back and re-read all of Sayers I could say "No you're wrong" and all you would have to say is "No I'm right." That could go on forever. One quote might help. 69.109.177.22 15:33, 30 March 2006 (UTC)

Jewish characters in Wimsey books

These accusations of anti-semitism are dangerous things. The wikipedia article is being quoted all over the web giving erroneous information. There are literally thousands of google hits. I wonder how poor old Dorothy would have felt about it. Notably, it's such a hot-button topic we're not even using our screen names...

I'm not sure which books and characters the earlier editor meant, but since I've read the books a lot, I'll try to sum up my observations in re anti-Semitism.

• Probably Sayers' most important Jewish character is Levy, victim in Whose Body?. He's supposed to have been devoted to his wife and daughter, tidy in his habits, etc, but he's pretty much just a corpse; I never get the feeling that he was very alive as a character even before he got murdered. The stupid but sympathetic Freddy Arbuthnot goes on the marry 'the beautiful' Rachel Levy in synagogue, having finally won round Mrs. Levy by a single Biblical quote put on top of years of courtship. He has promised any children can be raised Jewish, observing that it will be all to their advantage to be in the "Levy and Goldberg crowd", particularly if the boys "turn out anything in the financial way." ([[Strong Poison]) He observes that these Jews all "stick together like leeches, and as a matter of fact I think it's very fine of them." Which seems a typical comment from the actually major characters; willing to allow virtues to the Jews, but viewing them as a homogenous set of people quite different from themselves.
• I'm afraid I'm being too lazy right this minute to dig up any of the instances of rabid anti-semitism that crop up among the more minor characters; I think they're fairly randomly scattered, and have much the same tone as references to Bolshie conspiracies.
• However, even Peter replies to Bunter's announcement of "a financial individual" in Busman's Honeymoon with the question "Name of Moses?" The individual is actually named MacBride; Peter says "A distinction without a difference." Young MacBride, who represents th solicitors MacDonald and Abrahams and has come to try to get a debt paid, is referred to at least once as a 'Hebrew.'
• All that said, I can't pass over an exceedingly minor but rather charming Jewish character who turns up in the short story 'The Piscatorial Farce of the Stolen Stomach' (see the Lord Peter story collection); one Nathan Abrahams, a seller of precious stones and friend of Peter's. Stereotypical in many ways - but he really does love the beauty of the stones, complains about selling fine stones to "stupid Americans who think only of the price and not of the beauty", and teases Peter about how he should get married. 'Fraid that last's pretty much just airing POV, though.

Personally, I think Sayers' anti-semitism should certainly be noted in the article, but perhaps not given as much attention as it has at present. Candle-ends 16:16, 31 March 2006 (UTC)

That's a pretty thorough review for being off-the-cuff, Candle-ends! My main concern is that this wikipedia article has been picked up all over the web as a final authority on Sayers. Someone at some point called her treatment of Jews an "unblushing anti-semitism" (see italicized segment directly below), which is nice phraseology, but which sentiment does no good for a deeper understanding of Sayers' personality and authorship. I didn't remember the offhand remarks from my reading oh-so-many years ago, and it's all a bit complex. I just wouldn't want it to go down in history that Sayers was some kind of rabid Jew-hater. Any input welcome by my account. Guernseykid 11:42, 1 April 2006 (UTC)

Anti-Semitism or pre-WWII 'European culture'?

Can anybody please tell me the reason for discussing Sayer's alleged anti-semitisim in a Wikipedia article in the first place? Anti-semitism was a normal part of 'European culture' before World War II, so it's possible to find traces of it in virtually any book published back then. Sayers was certainly not the worst, even if you read her stories with the worst possible intentions. Ascribing any utterance from any character to the author herself has nothing to do with serious reading. However, you could find lots of other 'politically-incorrect' views in her books even without reading them like that. Whether each of these views, which might be seen as offensive to some ethnic or cultural groups, deserve a section of their own in any brief presentation, or if they're better forgotten after being wrapped up in the term 'eurocentric' (or perhaps 'anglocentric'), deserves the same consideration as the discussion of the 'anti-semitism' issue. And what about the outspoken propaganda for death penalty in some of the novels? Even worded by Harriet V., who would have been innocently executed was it not for the extraordinary intervention of Lord Peter. This is a moral-political issue of much greater relevance for Sayers' authorship – if moral-political issues should at all be discussed in a context like this. T.B.Hansen (visitor) 23 August, 2006

The accusations of Anti-Semitism are a fact, and deserve a mention. I've expanded the section with more quotes, and references to the recent thesis by Sørsdal, and reorganised to discuss different forms of alleged prejudice in a logical order. The problem of course is that, shocking as it sounds to the modern ear, "Wot this country wants is a 'Itler" is something English people really did say in the 1930s (as you so rightly point out). Accurately recording this doesn't make Sayers a Nazi. The death penalty issue is a serious topic of discussion in Gaudy Night, but independent: I don't know if it should go into the article. Radagast3 (talk) 10:33, 26 April 2008 (UTC)

In the first paragraph of "Alleged racism and anti-semitism in Sayers' Writing" I've changed: "Though perhaps offensive to the modern reader, the views expressed by characters in the novel must thus be taken as a reflection of the 1930s English society in which the novel was set, rather than as the author's own view." Basically I replaced "must" with "can be". Before it seemed like a claim that couldn't be made uncited. This paragraph in general seemed like it defended Sayers too much instead of just stating the facts about the speculation over Sayers possible anti-Semitism.Ganacka (talk) 03:19, 26 December 2009 (UTC)

I think your change is appropriate, but the underlying source is both poor and doesn't support the claim in the first place. It's just a student's thesis, not a properly published scholarly paper or book or other high-quality reliable source. Additionally, it doesn't make a single claim about anti-semitism in connection with the named quotation (which has no connection to Hitler's antisemitism; the book was published three years before Kristallnacht). Jews are mentioned on just two pages of the essay, some 40 pages before, in a different book.

I've saved the ref on the theory that a weak source is better than none at all, and moved the text that it actually supports (about feminism) out of the racism section and tagged the racism section as needing sources. (IMO, a supportable criticism would be "Some of these characters -- usually the villains or uneducated blue-collar workers -- had very mild versions of their culture's endemic racism!", which is about as astonishing as Captain Louis Renault saying he is "shocked to find that gambling is going on in here!")

Of course, if someone has a much better source, I'd support its use instead. WhatamIdoing (talk) 05:01, 26 December 2009 (UTC)

Inklings, anti-Semitism, Wimsey's faith

Failed to turn up any source for the story of her relations with the Inklings. On the contrary, Humphrey Carpenter asserts that she never met with that group. Though he's no expert on Sayers, he seems a good source for the Inklings. Changed the text accordingly. Dandrake 23:53, 8 Oct 2003 (UTC)

One of the members of the DorothyLSayers list has found a text in which C. S. Lewis says she never met with the Inklings and probably never knew of the group's existence. (That last part seems dubious, but there's no reason to doubt the substance of what he said.) On the other hand, she did go with him to some of the meetings of his Socratic Club. Perhaps this was the source of the confusion. Dandrake 01:14, 14 Oct 2003 (UTC)

Dandrake is correct. The association with Inklings is frequently declared to be an error by scholars and fans of both, Lewis and Sayers (I have never heard the story that she was unaware of the group). On a separate subject, this text is of doubtful accuracy:

Many have found in the novels an unblushing anti-Semitism which was marked even for the time and place of their writing; others cite the most offensive passages in the Wimsey novels as the talk of characters who do not represent the authorial voice. The case is made less clear by the fact that the author's own voice tends to be patronizing at best toward any persons who are not the right sort of Christian English people.

That statement sounds difficult to prove, since Wimsey himself is portrayed (explicitly in more than one of the books) as not professing Christian faith. Mkmcconn 02:38, 14 Oct 2003 (UTC)

Got me there. Not only does LPW not call himself a Christian (and Sayers was quite annoyed by people who thought she should make him one), but conventional Christians did not come off very well at times in her work; see the uncomforatble Sunday breakfast in Clouds of Witness. And "nominal Christian" won't do, and "gentile" doesn't seem to work well. But the attempt was to characterize people who really belonged to that Christian (or once-Christian) nation, as opposed to foreigners and outsiders. Among the latter, in Sayers's view, were Jews, though the places where she was quite explicit about this are not well known and largely unpublished.

But I'm digressing a bit here; the reference you quoted was not to unpublished stuff. It was to what can be found right there in the Wimsey books–or so I claim. I mention the obscure sources just to say that the attitude is consistent with her other work. None of which solves the problem of wording the claim to get rid of Christian or properly qualify it. Dandrake 18:21, 14 Oct 2003 (UTC)

Original research in the Anti-semitism section

I see that no one has commented on the anti-semitism bit in some time. Frankly, I'm not sure what it's doing here (at least in its current state). If there are critics who have leveled the charge of anti-semitism against Sayers, please cite them. Otherwise, all you are doing is pulling quotes from the books and leveling the charge yourself. On the other side, there are lots of uncited apologies explaining why Sayers wasn't an anti-semite and was merely reflecting the world around her. Both sides of the debate appear to be presented largely as original research, which leads me to believe that there isn't much actual critical debate on the topic — in which case, it doesn't belong in an encyclopedia. Thoughts? TremorMilo (talk) 20:40, 26 December 2010 (UTC)

Just to clarify: I see that there *are* critical citations in the last paragraph, but they are vague, single-sentence references. Do these critics write specifically about the preceding three paragraphs of material? If so, those citations belong in the more extensive paragraphs rather than in a quick wrap-up at the end. (I hope I am making sense here, and not just coming off as a complainer.) TremorMilo (talk) 20:43, 26 December 2010 (UTC)

The section certainly could use additional sourcing, especially the first two paragraphs, and this sentence in the third paragraph—

However, once again such views should be taken as a reflection of contemporary English society, and not as the author's own view.

—deserves both a citation and a rewrite to remove its didactic tendencies. Overall, however, the section isn't quite in crisis: it cites five separate sources and makes no outrageous claims. I have placed some tags to indicate problem areas and tagged the entire section, for good measure. For help with improving the sources, you might put in a request at either of the WikiProjects listed at the top of this page. Rivertorch (talk) 22:30, 26 December 2010 (UTC)

There is a source for Sayers' personal anti-Semitism. In the Brabazon biography (pp. 216-217) is a letter in which she explains that the English at the beginning of the war are taking to anti-Semitism it was because they had been driven past endurance by "bombs, black-out, restrictions, rations, coal-targets, bread-targets, clothes-coupons, call-ups, income-tax, lack of domestic help and general bedevilment." On p. 217, her letter describes the behavior of Jews that the English people see. She names British Jewesses announcing they're sending their money to America, the children who won't learn "the common school code of honour," Jewish renters who bribe the landlady and then report her to the "billetting authorities," everyone taking their turn as fire-watchers except "the houseful of Jews in the middle [of the block]." She concludes "it all really boils down to the same thing: 'bad citizens.'" There's also a problem with the characterization in the article of Heilburn's reaction to accusations of anti-Semitism in the Brabazon bio. She didn't "refute it." On page 11 of "Dorothy L. Sayers: The Centenary Celebration", she criticized Brabazon for "his complacent acceptance of Sayers's anti-Semitism, which, expressed mainly in private letters, need not have been so ardently defended." She writes that Sayers disliked the "Jewish religion because of its refusal to recognize Jesus as the savior." She praises Ralph Hone's biography because "he understands Sayers better as a woman and as a feminist and as an anti-Semite." Bpeschel (talk) 18:28, 18 February 2011 (UTC)

Mystery or detective fiction, not thriller

This article shouldn't be under thriller writers as the word is understood in the States -- mysteries or detective fiction is more appropriate. I realize that in England many books are called, in a generic sense, "thrillers", but I think that as the years go by that word is used much more often to designate books that have movement, action, and suspense, as opposed to mere detective happenings.Hayford Peirce 04:17, 25 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Literary criticism

I have tried to give the piece a more formatted feel and added a subsection for Literary Critism. I plan to add more details about Sayers' life and a list of her works, but I'm too tired to finish it tonight. I hope I haven't snipped out any valuable bits. This is only my second time to do this. Txqueen 05:42, 31 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Nitpicking belongs here and not in edit wars, however minor --

The "the" in her father's title seems to go in and out. Leaving out the definite article before Reverend is an American usage; I honor U.S. usage and it colors most of my writing. But this is an English writer, and by established Wikipedia convention, it should employ British usage consistently; if I were writing article text here, I should certainly honour that convention without reservation. So let's keep the definite article in the article, OK? She was, in fact, an English writer who had very little use for American usage, or for anything else from this side of the Atlantic (on which side the presence of anything other than the USA was rarely noticed in her work). The one exception, in the use of single and double quotation marks, was not a preference for anything American, but a logical and well-argued choice. So it's a bit disrespectful to abandon her national (and, in the case of Rev., rational) choices. Dandrake 19:11, 16 December 2005 (UTC)

As a proud Yank I must point out that leaving out the "the" when referring to the reverend gentleman, rather than when addressing him (of course), is always wrong in either country. -- Craig Goodrich 68.227.15.115 (talk) 04:45, 19 April 2008 (UTC)

Harriet Vane "... collaborates with Wimsey to solve a murder but still finds Wimsey overbearing and superficial." No. Both Ms Vane and Lord Peter are presented in far too much depth here (Carcase) to support this stereotyped assertion. In fact, Ms Vane's inner conflicts about Lord Peter -- due to a combination of her own bitterness about love itself from her experience living with the writer in Strong Poison and a subconscious resentment of her debt of gratitude to Wimsey for saving her from the gallows (same novel) -- account for her consistent rejection of him as a suitor, although she is quite obviously attracted to him and enjoys his company. Ms Vane's inner conflict (of which she herself is, incidentally, acutely aware), and the gradual healing of the emotional scars left from her Poison experience, are a major subtheme of the novels Carcase and Gaudy Night; to describe her attitude towards Lord Peter as due to her finding him "overbearing and superficial" is so wildly wrong that one wonders whether whoever wrote it ever actually read the book. -- Craig Goodrich 68.227.15.115 (talk) 04:57, 19 April 2008 (UTC)

Writer section

A paragraph in the Writer section seems to call for a good deal of reworking.

When she tired of grinding out detective stories, Sayers introduced detective novelist Harriet Vane in the arguably definitive Strong Poison. She remarked on more than one occasion that she had developed the "husky voiced, dark-eyed" Harriet to put an end to Lord Peter via matrimony. But in the course of writing Gaudy Night, Sayers imbued Lord Peter and Harriet with so much life that she was never able to, as she put it, "see Lord Peter exit the stage."

I'm not convinced of "grinding out", but the trouble starts a bit later. In what sense is Strong Poison definitive, even arguably? It marks a great change, certainly; calling it a watershed might be closer than saying it's definitive, since LPW's character is not fully redefined till 3 Harriet-Vane novels later. And it seems that it was in the writing of SP, not Gaudy Night, that her characters took on too much life to be pushed around arbitrarily. Finally, he did exit the stage, you know, rather slowly and quietly: Nothing was published after Busman's Honeymoon, nor anything written after Tallboys, more than a dozen years before she died. Anyone want to discuss a revision? If not, the para should just be hacked at when someone has the time. Dandrake 02:28, 22 December 2005 (UTC)

Guinness Toucan

Dorothy L Sayers sould also be remembered for her work with S.H.Benson advertising agency, where she was employed in 1922. She became part of their writing team, and is credited with creating the Guinness Toucan which has been associated with the product for over 25 years. Sayers worked at the agency for 7 years and left in 1929. Her very popular design was reinstated by J.Walter Thompson in 1979 to promote Guinness in cans and so the toucan continued to be associated with Guinness and has been recognised alongside the brand for over 50 years

I agree it should be added JenKilmer 18:16, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

Titles

I don't think the section titles are very good; creating a split between her "writing" and her Christian work seems wrong, as her Christian work largely consists of writing. I will try to fix that (tell me what you think of it). Also, is there not a better way to divide up the section about her personal life aside from quoting her letter to her cousin (especially when that same text is included in the article, anyway)? The section hardly describes the baby anyway; it deals more with Cournos and her husband.

Another thing: she fell in unrequited love with a man named Whelpton (Dorothy L. Sayers, Her Life and Soul by Barbara Reynolds) before she met Cournos, so I'm not sure whether calling Cournos her "first" adult love is accurate. Sophy's Duckling 05:47, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

Turning heart and hands to God's work

This could use considerable expansion. It doesn't describe her plays at all--it just mentions CS Lewis liked one of them. I would also argue the title needs to be changed because there is considerable evidence that Sayers included Christian themes in her Wimsey books (consider The Seven Deadly Sins in the Work of Dorothy L. Sayers by Janice Brown). Sophy's Duckling 05:56, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

More suggestions

I just reread the article a couple of times, and it has a lot of excellent information, but it's not as well-organized or as informative as I think it could be. For instance, the only mention of her plays (and she mentioned in one of her letters that her switching to overtly Christian plays from the Wimsey books caused quite a scandal, so they're notable) is that CS Lewis liked one of them. And why is her friendship w/CS Lewis mentioned in her career section and not her personal life section?

Also, does anyone have a copy of the essay mentioned here (it'd be a good idea to get some solid quotes for the anti-semitism section)?

"In 1943-44, however, she wrote an essay for inclusion in a book The Future of the Jews by J. J. Lynx, in which it is definitely the authorial voice that asserts, for instance, that Jews are bad citizens with little or no loyalty to the country they live in. Critical discussion of this piece has been limited, as the essay was withdrawn from the collection at the last minute due to the demand of the other contributors, and was never published." Sophy's Duckling 06:25, 31 July 2006 (UTC) Bold text

Bibliography

Why on earth are there no bibliography over her writings, preferable divided between say 'criminal fiction', 'plays' and 'essays'. Just to mention a title here and there in the running text without even mentioning the year it was written doesn't seem very encyclopedial to my mind. It assumes a great familiarity with her work before you read the article. Kurben 29 aug. 2006 15.35

I have added to the article a beginning of a bibliography. It concerns her criminal fiction which is my main interest in her as a writer. I don't know enough of her other writings to try a bibliography. Regarding the crime fiction I have excluded 3 novels she wrote together with the members of "The Detection club". I think it worked the way that they wrote a chapter each but i'm not sure. My argument is that they are not really a work of Sayers as a writer but of course they can be included. What do you think? Kurben 29 aug 17.43

I'm glad you've started this bibliography section! I think those 3 shared novels should be included as a separate sub-section. Andrew Dalby 12:41, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

Added those. Found some more in that category when I looked through my sources. But I admit that I feel a little reluctance if you out there think we should add "Thrones, dominations" too. When Sayers notes run out there is not even a murder or a plot running, just some family conversation you might say. I consider that book almost entirely a work of Paton Walsh. Used Sayers name too sell some more books, it worked but no, it doesn't belong in a bibliography over Sayers is my opinion. Kurben 22:00, 30 aug. 2006

Assumptions made on page

The bibliography section refers to the "Detection Club", but nothing on the entire page says who or what that might be.

There is info on it in the biographies I have - shall I add a section? It's a British writer's club she helped found & led, IIRC. JenKilmer 18:16, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

Added link to Detection club JenKilmer 22:28, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

Also, the abbreviation "PW" should not be used, because it's not an abbreviation that the average reader knows. Of course, if you read this whole page from top to bottom you can figure it out. But we don't write "FB" for "Frodo Baggins" on the Tolkien page, nor do we write "LM" for "Lady Macbeth" on the Shakespeare page. - Lawrence King 04:15, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

Agreed JenKilmer 18:16, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

Fixed JenKilmer 22:28, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

Biography or "Personal life"

Much of Sayers' life is discussed in the "Career" section. Might it not make sense to call the "Biography" section "Personal Life"? JenKilmer 05:29, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

GK Chesterton

Nothing about Chesterton? She began publushing by writting to G.K. Weekly's anonimusly —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Domingo Portales (talk • contribs) 06:25, 14 January 2007 (UTC).

Fair use rationale for Image:DorothyLSayers MuderMustAdvertise.jpg

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Done. Radagast3 (talk) 14:32, 27 April 2008 (UTC)

Fair use rationale for Image:TheFloatingAdmiral.jpg

Image:TheFloatingAdmiral.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

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If there is other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images uploaded after 4 May, 2006, and lacking such an explanation will be deleted one week after they have been uploaded, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.BetacommandBot 04:46, 3 July 2007 (UTC)

Image removed. Radagast3 (talk) 08:18, 28 April 2008 (UTC)

Plays

Should her plays be separated out in a new section of the bibliography? I've added a link for Man Born to be King to its own wikipedia page; but it seems to be in the wrong section. It's under essays or non-fiction; but the plays are a fictionalization of Jesus' life. -- Duae Quartunciae 15:10, 14 July 2007 (UTC)

The son and the royalties

I found the information on Tony and the inheritance of the royalties extremely interesting, and many thanks to the contributor who found and added it, but it is still in need of inline citations and was probably in the wrong place in the article. I have tidied it a bit for clarity and grammatical accuracy, and have moved it to a position following the bulk of the article, because it obtruded awkwardly into the info about DLS herself (who is, after all, the subject of the article). I'm not sure it's in the right place even now, but I do think it's more appropriate than where it was. Or does it perhaps merit a new article of its own? --Karenjc (talk) 16:52, 25 November 2007 (UTC)

I did find it rather odd... as you say, the subject of the article is DLS. Is Tony a notable person within the Wikipedia meaning of that word? I would rather doubt it; his notability seems to come from his relation to DLS, and thus I'd suggest the material could be removed without harming any information about DLS. Accounting4Taste:talk 19:58, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

John Anthony clearly isn't notable, but some information on him is an essential part of a DLS biography. The material on the royalties is interesting, but perhaps not essential. I doubt that the section it's in needs to say anything about the alleged background to the birth of John Anthony's wife. Xn4 03:13, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

(Note that the alleged grammatical errors, were the correct use of the pronoun 'that' where the less educated would have used - and heve amended the text to - 'which' and 'who', that are non-defining pronouns that would be inappropriate to use there. These are common gramatical errors, even amongst those that consider themselves well-educated - See Strunk & White 'Elements of Style, Collier MacMillan 1979, ISBN 0-02-418200-1. 'That' is the correct 'defining' pronoun to use in the situation concerned.) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.155.234.130 (talk) 18:02, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

As uses of the word 'that', I'm afraid none of these is very good English:

• "born to Lilian Ethel Davis that worked in the drapery department" ("who worked" is very much better)
• "then to Balliol College, Oxford, that was Lord Peter Wimsey's old college" ("which was" is much better)
• "two children that both died young" ("who both died" is better)

I have made these changes. Xn4 19:00, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

Lolol - am I supposed to duck? If opposing the odd Strunkenwhitism makes me "less educated" in your view then so be it, even though more recent authorities - Fowler, for one - have a different take on this point. "That" is indeed a defining pronoun, and an appropriate one in many situations, but the acid test is majority and accepted current usage, and I'm afraid nobody would say "Sayers, that was an only child" today, whatever a thirty-year-old style guide might advise. The purpose of Wiki is the provision of useful and readable information in a co-operative enterprise, not intellectual one-upmanship on arcane and arguable points of grammar. --Karenjc (talk) 23:28, 27 November 2007 (UTC)

This section is rather odd, and in need of better references (what is given is a book review on a web). I would suggest deleting it, moving some material into the main body if it can be better cited. Radagast3 (talk) 15:35, 27 April 2008 (UTC)

Done. Radagast3 (talk) 08:17, 28 April 2008 (UTC)

Sayers's son

I seriously call into question the accuracy, neutrality, and intent of the information in the section on Sayers's son. It is a mixture of unsubstantiated gossip (he was a bastard who married another bastard, and then "an Hispanic," got mysteriously rich, and then everybody died under "suspicious circumstances"?) and implicit accusations of shadiness. It is also added by someone calling hirself "Tony Sayers" and those are the only edits they have made. I suggest that it be removed until there is more substance and we know something of "Tony Sayers" and hir sources. Pinksisket (talk) 05:28, 16 January 2008 (UTC)

I have removed a (further) paragraph on the son and his legacy from Sayers. It read as follows.

'On the death of Dorothy, all of her property, including the royalties for her work, was left to her son, but when he divorced on 8 January 1973, the royalties passed to Gabrielle as a part of the settlement. Payment of royalties will come to an end in 2027, seventy years after Sayers's death.'

The paragraph was uncited, not very relevant to a biography of Sayers herself, and referred by name presumably to the son's wife, though she was not mentioned before in the current version of the article. If someone wants to source this, make it relevant, and rewrite to avoid mysterious names, go for it! Martinp (talk) 01:18, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

Reorganisation

I've rearranged her non-fiction work a little, in order to better match the introductory blurb "renowned British author, translator and Christian humanist." Radagast3 (talk) 02:16, 26 April 2008 (UTC)

I would also like to see a section on her philosophy/theology of work, and perhaps also on her feminist writings. Radagast3 (talk) 10:37, 26 April 2008 (UTC)

Q.D. Leavis and Sean Latham on Sayers

I have added one of the more substantial charges that Q.D. Leavis makes against Sayers, because it seems to me that Sayers' reputation as a writer is genuinely controversial. I admire Wilson and Leavis more than I do Sayers and I think that there is some substance in what they say. However, I am not interested in just throwing mud at her, and I would like Radagast3 to add some more of Sean Latham's defence of Sayers' fiction against the charges that Wilson and Sayers made. Right now the Latham para seems oddly worded, as if Latham really does believe Sayers to have been a "popular-culture hack", which is not something that a writer of Sayers' ambitions would probably like to have thought about herself and is probably not what Latham meant.

Latham is of course suggesting that Leavis was a snob, and viewed Sayers as a "hack" with pretensions. I've reworded slightly. Radagast3 (talk) 09:26, 21 August 2008 (UTC)

In the interests of demonstrating my unwillingness to just throw abuse at Sayers, I might have added the quote I have from a letter by philosopher and crime novel fan Ludwig Wittgenstein, in which he describes one of Sayers' novels as "bl[oody] foul", but I didn't, because it seemed to be just mud-slinging. :) Lexo (talk) 22:42, 20 August 2008 (UTC)

I'm not sure what to do with this section. Yes, many people don't like Sayers' writing, including the two critics cited. Others do: Sayers' novels have remained in print when most novels of her time haven't. The lengthy quotes from Wilson and Leavis simply reveal that they are in the category of those who don't like Sayers, and the Latham quote shows that those criticisms have themselves been criticised. It would be nice to find some criticisms of Sayers that get a bit more precise, and identify specific flaws. Wilson at least says that there is too much background material for his taste, which is a legitimate criticism, but Leavis seems to mostly just engage in unjustified abuse (and I'm tempted to cut the quote for that reason -- what does "no [such] novelist [...] could ever amount to anything" mean, for example?). Similarly, the Wittgenstein quote is unhelpful if he gives no reasons for his dislike. Does anyone know of more reasoned critiques of Sayers, either in book form, or in literary journals? Radagast3 (talk) 09:25, 21 August 2008 (UTC)

I have added a little more of Latham, and mentioned Wittgenstein's name (although a citation of the letter is needed). Radagast3 (talk) 10:01, 21 August 2008 (UTC)

I am interested to learn that Sayers' novels have remained in print. Not being a crime novel fan, I hadn't noticed. I think that Leavis' criticism of Sayers probably needs to be interpreted in the light of the Leavises' general critical attitude, which tended (annoyingly enough) to be much more implied in their own works, and in the works of their circle (basically, the Scrutiny critics), than stated directly. The gist of Leavis's complaint about Sayers, as I understand it, is that Sayers was a frivolous cultural snob who thought (wrongly, in Leavis's opinion) that a university degree (and, a fortiori, a professorship or fellowship) was somehow a mark of good character, and who imported this belief into her fictional characters, portraying an idealised version of university life that was more an expression of romantic nostalgia for her own student days than a realistic assessment of what people who taught and worked in universities actually thought and believed. Sean Latham's comments miss the point of Leavis's criticism, since it would have part of her critical standpoint that a crime novel would be necessarily too hidebound by genre convention to ever represent the sort of all-round criticism of life that she and her circle demanded from the best literature, no matter how sophisticated or erudite a crime novel it was. If you like, I will fillet the Leavis review for something more specific; part of the problem with it is that she was, to a certain extent, writing for a readership who would mostly have either heartily agreed with her or utterly disagreed with her, and it was in her nature to be combative, so she doesn't really try to persuade. The Wittgenstein quote is from a letter to his former pupil Norman Malcolm, which is reproduced in its entirety on p. 109 of Malcolm's Ludwig Wittgenstein: A Memoir, O.U.P., 2001, ISBN 0199247595. Incidentally, many novels of Sayers' time have remained in print. In the same letter that Wittgenstein complains about Sayers, he lavishly praises a crime novel called Rendezvous With Fear by a US pulp novelist named Norbert Davis. This novel was republished in 2001 by Rue Morgue Press under its original title The Mouse in the Mountain. I have a copy of it. It's one of the very few crime novels I have managed to get to the end of. Lexo (talk) 23:43, 21 August 2008 (UTC)

One more thing: the only work by Dorothy Sayers that I have ever actually read was her translation of Dante's Inferno, which is also the worst translation of the Inferno that I have ever read. Lexo (talk) 23:44, 21 August 2008 (UTC)

Yeah, that's had its fans and its critics as well. Radagast3 (talk) 10:14, 22 August 2008 (UTC)

One final, final thing: the 'snob' accusation is of course a tough one to defend oneself against. Latham seems to argue that Leavis is a snob because she thinks that a crime novelist can never write anything better than hackwork. Leavis argues that Sayers is a snob because Sayers, in Leavis's version, attaches undue importance to the mere outward appearance of cultural literacy: the ability to speak French, to know a lot about English prosody, to be a college professor, etc. I hope this clarifies the way that Latham is not accusing Leavis of the same thing that Leavis is accusing Sayers of. Lexo (talk) 23:51, 21 August 2008 (UTC)

My memory tells me that the most interesting -- well, okay, to me the most amusing -- thing that Mrs. Leavis said about Sayers' work hasn't been quoted here, and I'm not sure if my memory is precise: "(Miss Sayers') work presents the appearance of intellectual activity to people who would very much dislike that sort of thing if they were forced to actually undergo it." I hope I'm forgiven for thinking that this is somewhat relevant. I've been following this discussion with interest, because my understanding is that Mrs. Leavis's criticism is much better known than Mr. Latham's; he makes a good point, though. Accounting4Taste:talk 00:01, 22 August 2008 (UTC)

Good memory, although the actual quote is this: "And in the matter of ideas, subject, theme, problems raised, she similarly performs the best-seller's function of giving the impression of intellectual activity to readers who would very much dislike that kind of exercise if it were actually presented to them; but of course it is all shadow-boxing." Leavis, op. cit., p.143 Lexo (talk) 00:28, 22 August 2008 (UTC)

That's interesting, because a criticism of Sayers I've heard from friends is precisely that she forces the reader engage in too much "intellectual activity" -- in contrast to Agatha Christie, say. I've used one of Sayers' novels as set reading for a university lecture, and that is, well, odd. The fact that I could do that helps, I think, to explain both some of the criticisms and some of her popularity. Radagast3 (talk) 10:14, 22 August 2008 (UTC)

I must confess to never having heard of Leavis before this. It sounds like her (very brief) page could do with some editing too! I also don't have access to the whole of her review (the part I've read still seems poorly argued to me). The criticism by Auden carries more weight with me, since he's a poet, but all I've read of that is what Latham mentions (does anyone have more on Auden's critique?). I also suspect that Leavis is one of the set satirised by Sayers, which could explain some of the vitriol. Radagast3 (talk) 10:14, 22 August 2008 (UTC)

By the way, I strongly agree that the criticisms of Sayers' work should be represented here, as part of the NPOV policy, and because she clearly does not appeal to everyone. The Leavis quote might perhaps be a trifle long (does anyone know the legal limit?) but I have no burning desire to cut it. Radagast3 (talk) 10:14, 22 August 2008 (UTC)

The page on Leavis is definitely underwritten; check out the page on her husband and chief collaborator F.R. Leavis for more info on how influential they were. I have the whole review in an anthology of Scrutiny pieces that F.R.L. edited in the late 60s. I have not been able to locate a free version of it, but it's reprinted in this book. I don't know who Sayers was satirising, but all I can say is that if she was having a go at Leavis and company in the novels, Leavis got her own back; as negative book reviews go, it's the equivalent of a bullet in the back of the head. I don't think that her review was motivated by stung vanity, though, as the Leavises were famous for having harsh critical standards and for leaving famous writers out of their canon of great literature. To name but four, they had little time for Laurence Sterne, Dylan Thomas, Virginia Woolf and (my own favourite writer) James Joyce. Lexo (talk) 15:00, 22 August 2008 (UTC)

Oh yeah - they also didn't like Auden.(!) Lexo (talk) 15:02, 22 August 2008 (UTC)

My memory tells me also that Colin Watson's 1971 book-length essay, "Snobbery With Violence", would have something useful to contribute on Sayers, her audience, and their mutual snobbism. I can't say that I could identify any character in the Sayers novels which could be said to be satirising Mr. and/or Mrs. Leavis, or indeed any of their circle, but perhaps I am overlooking something that is obvious to others? It seems likely to me that Philip Boyce in Strong Poison is based on Sayers' first lover, and he's the only writer whom my dim memory can recall. Accounting4Taste:talk 16:27, 22 August 2008 (UTC)

Accounting4Taste: if you have a copy of the Watson book, why not have a look? Sorry, Radagast3, I recast your sentence in the first sub-section, in which you said that Leavis' suggestion that Sayers would never amount to anything was "misplaced". There are three reasons why I did this: one is that it constitutes a violation of WP:NPOV, with the chivalrous Radagast3 coming to the defence of Miss Sayers. It is not up to us to decide whether Leavis was right or wrong; the only criterion should be whether she is a notable critic, and I think the consensus is that she is. The second is that even if it were up to us, we couldn't possibly know if it's true - if Leavis hadn't attacked Sayers, Sayers might be even more popular now than she already is, but we have no way of knowing. The third, and by far the least relevant to this discussion, is that Leavis was not talking about Sayers' commercial success but her artistic credibility. Sayers was already a very successful author when Leavis wrote her review, and Leavis was not saying that Sayers wouldn't remain in print; Leavis did not equate commercial success with artistic success. By "never amount to anything", Leavis meant that Sayers would never mature into an artist on the level of the writers she (Leavis) admired - DH Lawrence, Jane Austen, Hardy, Conrad, George Eliot. I did mention that she had tough standards. Lexo (talk) 23:41, 22 August 2008 (UTC)

I have found better (more specific and less mud-slinging) quotes in the Leavis review than the existing ones, and I will put them in immediately. Lexo (talk) 23:46, 22 August 2008 (UTC)

Those quotes are great - less vitriol, and more legitimate criticism. And the whole section reads much better now. Radagast3 (talk) 02:30, 23 August 2008 (UTC)

Pronunciation

The IPA given for Sayers' preferred pronunciation of her name includes an /r/. As we're talking about her own pronunciation, and as RP is non-rhotic, that should be absent. At best, one could include an r-colouring diacritic, but I'm strongly of the opinion that that's inappropriate in this instance. I know the WP policies on pronunciation varients, and that non-rhotic pronunciations are assumed to drop such sounds automatically, but we are talking about Sayers' own preferred pronunciation here. --Che Gannarelli (talk) 09:55, 21 August 2008 (UTC)

The cited reference says "SAIRS". I could once write RP in IPA symbology, but that was back in high school, and I for one am prepared to accept expert opinion here. Radagast3 (talk) 10:25, 22 August 2008 (UTC)

Why would the use of Sayers's middle initial facilitate a particular pronunciation? AuntFlo (talk) 15:33, 24 August 2009 (UTC)

Because the "L" would take the emphasis, discouraging the pronunciations "SAYers" and encouraging a shorter vowel. Radagast3 (talk) 22:09, 24 August 2009 (UTC)

Reference needed

"J. R. R. Tolkien, however, read some of the Wimsey novels but scorned the later ones, such as Gaudy Night."

If he did so, this clearly calls for a reference as to WHERE he did so. GeneCallahan (talk) 03:14, 3 September 2008 (UTC)

Good point. Radagast3 (talk) 12:48, 14 September 2008 (UTC)

Image copyright problem with Image:Guinness Toucan-ad.jpg

The image Image:Guinness Toucan-ad.jpg is used in this article under a claim of fair use, but it does not have an adequate explanation for why it meets the requirements for such images when used here. In particular, for each page the image is used on, it must have an explanation linking to that page which explains why it needs to be used on that page. Please check

• That there is a non-free use rationale on the image's description page for the use in this article.
• That this article is linked to from the image description page.

This is an automated notice by FairuseBot. For assistance on the image use policy, see Wikipedia:Media copyright questions. --07:59, 14 September 2008 (UTC)

Done. Radagast3 (talk) 12:44, 14 September 2008 (UTC)

"The Sultry Tiger"

I'm wondering if anyone can provide information about the entry for a Sayers book (putatively written under a pseudonym) called "The Sultry Tiger". Her official website gives no such citation [1], I've read two biographies and never heard a mention of this, and there is no such book mentioned on either Amazon or ABEBooks. I'm going to tentatively suggest that this is a hoax. Accounting4Taste:talk 22:44, 14 September 2009 (UTC)

That item was added clear back in December 2006 by an anonymous IP that has continued to do considerable editing, through the present. The edit: [2]. If it's a hoax, it's been a pretty good one. - DavidWBrooks (talk) 00:57, 15 September 2009 (UTC)

Bias

It seems to me that the following comment is an original thought. If it isn't, it should be cited.

"On the other hand, this characterization of Wilson's omits some of the complexities of Lord Peter's character, and these same complexities are what have endeared him to readers fond of protagonists who transcend the standards of the genre."

This is from the "Criticism of major character" sub-section of the "Criticism of Sayers" section.

I find that in at least a couple of places the article is not perfectly objective and can be defensive of Sayers. See the comment I'm about to post in the Anti-Semitism part of this talk page. (Sorry for any improper use. Never done this before.) Ganacka (talk) 03:06, 26 December 2009 (UTC)Ganacka

Relevance

A generally very good article -- but can someone tell me what the point is of the paragraph under Bio that begins "The 1920s in Britain was a time of social upheaval"? It's a general comment about women in post-WWI Britain (and the U.S., for that matter) but it has nothing to say specifically about Sayers. --Michael K Smith^Talk 19:17, 7 December 2010 (UTC)

Good point. I've remoed it; let's see if anybody thinks otherwise. - DavidWBrooks (talk) 19:29, 7 December 2010 (UTC)

Advertising career

In the section on Sayers' advertising career at Bensons' the article states that Sayers is 'widely credited' with having coined the phrase 'It pays to advertise'. In fact this phrase was used by PG Wodehouse in 'A Damsel in Distress' which was published in 1919, some three years before Sayers started work at Bensons. It occurs in Chapter 7, as part of a description of a pub meal, in a manner which suggests it was a phrase with which Wodehouse expected his audience to be familiar: "There is a "shilling ordinary"--which is rural English for a cut off the joint and a boiled potato, followed by hunks of the sort of cheese which believes that it pays to advertise'91.109.158.193 (talk) 19:25, 10 May 2011 (UTC)

Location of Great James Street

It's wrong to describe Great James Street as being in St Pancras. Bloomsbury or Holborn would both be accurate, but it's a long way south of what could reasonably be described as 'St Pancras'. I write as a local resident, not a Wikipedian, and as there's a link to the article about St Pancras incorporated in the description, I've not altered, but someone competent should. 188.29.95.170 (talk) 19:37, 30 June 2011 (UTC)Alan Trench, 30 June 2011

Okay. It would be extraordinarily helpful if you called on your knowledge as a local resident to find a reliable source to indicate that the street is in either Bloomsbury or Holborn. If you can find one, you or I or anyone can safely make the change. Rivertorch (talk) 20:02, 30 June 2011 (UTC)

"What would I want a student to know most about D.L. Sayers?" might mean...adding a few more sections here!

For instance, since this article is a First Acquaintance for many persons researching her, why not say a bit more about her writings concerning WORK---the importance she placed on doing one's job well...and her theology of WORK. (This theme is covertly repeated in her detective novels, for instance, and is discussed in some of her essays. Miss Climpson (in the Whimsey novels) versus the silly Miss Milson in the non-Whimsey mystery "The Documents in the Case" come to mind.) In one essay on Work...and the importance of doing it WELL...Sayers suggests that stockholders should ALSO demand...that the product made be of good quality (i.e. shareholders should loudly object if the beer their company produced made was second rate)!!!

A section detailing Sayers' overt and covert original views on feminism would be helpful to students, others who have little or NO exposure to Sayers. This Christian scholar/writer phrased the argument for treating women as full human beings...in incredibly concise, potent language. Here, I refer to her short book "Are Women Human", but (as you do mention) her fiction abounds with covert evidences of feminist concerns. Lord Peter may well be the first significant feminist male character.

And what of the pagan-neo pagan world versus the Joudaeo-Christian world? In "Creed and Chaos" Sayers defines the two world views colliding...i.e. historic Christianity (as briefly summarized in the key Christian Creeds--) versus a general, sometimes amorphous return to pagan or semi pagan ideas. Imagine the uproar (yet...fascination) if she spoke this speech today at the typical (U.S) university! Here, she is more truly controversial than she was with her mild anti semitism which (for her time) was much less than most others--of her day.

"What would I want a student to know most about D.L. Sayers?" might mean...a few sections more. These named added sections could briefly highlight more of her main themes. Work (and its value), Feminism, the historic Christian faith versus the current neo pagan thought, the value of teaching students to think logically (so they are not manipulated by mass media propaganda) ...and perhaps more key themes could be quickly summarized in more named sections. Some of these themes are briefly mentioned in this article, but they are swallowed up by other, usually more secondary topics.

Am hoping that some of you serious scholars above can more fully introduce this amazing thinker to inquirers todayLindisfarnelibrary (talk) 09:45, 31 August 2011 (UTC)

Remember that this is an encyclopedia, not a literary research journal. We inform the public what reliable sources have said, preferably in linkable form so readers can double-check it. All these intresting ideas would have to be echoes of statements by legitimate sources (and, frankly, "imagine the uproar" is the sort of speculation that doesn't belong in wikipedia at all. There are LOTS of other places for that) - DavidWBrooks (talk) 12:38, 31 August 2011 (UTC)