Talk:Ali

Photo of Ali (R)

Please remove the photo of Ali (R). — Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.83.29.217 (talk) 23:34, 21 July 2011 (UTC)

The drawing of Ali (R) should be removed. The same argument was written under Prophet Mohammad's page, whoever objects can refer to that page http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Muhammad/images. It is very lengthly so I suggest that you go thru the archives.

Please dont threat belief of Islam , I request to delete photos of Prophet and Sahaba . — Preceding unsigned comment added by Ashxxx7 (talk • contribs) 05:04, 20 August 2011 (UTC)

It is not acceptable in Islam to draw Prophets or Sahaba. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Asd1815 (talk • contribs) 03:31, 12 October 2010 (UTC)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Muhammad/FAQ There is no basis for removing these images. 220.239.169.62 (talk) 13:25, 27 October 2010 (UTC)

You should read the FAQ article! Is this a joke? There is no image of prophet Muhammad! Check the wikipedia page and see where the depiction are listed. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Asd1815 (talk • contribs) 07:16, 31 October 2010 (UTC)

the drawing of Ali (AS) should be removed —Preceding unsigned comment added by 217.218.125.62 (talk) 19:43, 22 November 2010 (UTC)

Salman1404 (talk) 03:15, 3 January 2011 (UTC) The depiction of major Islamic figure heads should be avoided. The artistic rendition is pointless as it does not provide any educational advantage.

The Photo of Hazrat Ali should be deleted otherwise We will campaign against Wiki. First requesting politely to you to remove the photo of Hazrat Ali. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 118.95.29.149 (talk) 04:57, 21 October 2011 (UTC)

Asked and answered several hundred times. Wikipedia does not follow Muslim rules, and so the photo will stay. In the future, Wikipedia is going to be created software that will allow you to choose not to view individual images that you consider offensive; for now, you can go to Talk:Muhammad/FAQ, and it explains how, if you register an account, you can block all images on Wikipedia. Qwyrxian (talk) 06:06, 21 October 2011 (UTC)

why did u putup picture of islmic people

kindly remove all picutures asap thats not fear our relogion is not allowed this frustation from you and yuours.. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 182.178.47.25 (talk) 07:00, 17 June 2011 (UTC) I agree, I really appreciate whe adminsitrator for putting up a page about the Commander of the Faithful. My only contention is that it is best to take down the picture as this will give some an inaccurate perception of such a great personality of Islamic history. Who really knows how he looked? — Preceding unsigned comment added by AtaMubarak (talk • contribs) 07:02, 18 September 2011 (UTC)

about Hazrat Ali a.s according to nahajul balaga

when Hazrat Ali a.s accepted islam that what was his age? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 182.182.60.235 (talk) 08:24, 27 July 2011 (UTC)

According to most accepted Islamic view for accepting Islamic one should be in the age of puberty/Wise enough/ Mature in thinking etc...The tradition that we came is 5 years old which is proved by Ali's own words that I was not 20 when I stood in the Battle of Badr.Ashurnasirpal 02:55, 7 October 2011 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Aparytai (talk • contribs)

Photo location

Islamic Photo of Ali with lion is more complete representation of Ali and it has more importance than mare simple sketch shown else in article. Islamic photo deserve space at lead. Hope it is better option.--Md iet (talk) 10:27, 4 August 2011 (UTC)

I restored the original layout because in a biography it's best for the lead image to be a simple head shot of the subject. Also, the image with the lion has been independently proposed for deletion so may not remain available. Doc Tropics 14:22, 4 August 2011 (UTC)

File:Alidrawing.jpg Nominated for Deletion

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Very Biased Material

This page has very biased material. Most of the information is told from the standpoint of the Sunnis. It would be better to allow the story be told by both shias and sunnis. For example there can be a story about the burning of Lady Fatima's home by sunnis, and then another section can be the same story except the shia perspective. Therefore both sides win. Also, please allow those who more closely know Imam Ali to better explain who he was. Alot of the actual history is censored or neglected in this article. This page is supposed to be about Imam Ali, however much of the information is focused on Abu Bakr and the other Caliphs and on how to make them appear as high and honorable people. Please reserve those comments only for the pages about Abu Bakr and the other Caliphs. This page should be about Imam Ali and only Imam Ali. I also would like to request that the people writing the page to speak of Imam Ali with respect. It is very disrespectful to just plainly call him Ali. It is preferred that he is called by his revered name Amir Al momineen Imam Ali ibne Abi Talib (as) or at least Imam Ali (as).

Okay, as I suspected, you're not coming at the page from the right perspective; I'm going to start at the end of your post, because that points out the key problem. Wikipedia does not follow the requirements of various religions to "respect" the subjects it writes about. We don't act disrespectfully, but we also don't use honorifics in our articles. Similarly, editing of articles is not limited to those "close" to the subject; all that matters is that we follow what reliable sources say. As such, if you have reliable sources that you know of that are not currently included, feel free to extract information from them, add it to the article, and provide sources. However, you can't just remove a lot of reliably sourced information because you don't like it. You are correct that this article should tell both the Sunni and Shia perspective. I don't know why you think this article is from a Sunni perspective--I see all sorts of phrases that say things like "According to Shia manuscripts" and "Shia consider him..."

At this point, the next best step is for you to point out specifically the things in the article that you think need to be removed. I recommend not listing them all at the same time--instead, lets go through part by part and try to figure out if there are problems. I'm sure that the article can be improved; but massive removal of sourced text is generally not the way to do that. Qwyrxian (talk) 13:03, 8 August 2011 (UTC)

I'm Shia and I have improved the article and reviewed it many times. I think it is not biased towards Shia or Sunni viewpoints. I tried to follow authentic historical records based on WP:MOS. In the cases which you want to add to the article such as the burning of Lady Fatima's home, I could not find a verifiable source. Thus, I moved them to this page and you can try yourself in these cases. Talk:Ali#Verifiable information for succession section.--Seyyed(t-c) 14:56, 8 August 2011 (UTC)

Regardless of whether you are shia or not, it does not make any of the points in the article anymore valid or invalid. The reason why I removed the "sourced" material is because whether it was sourced or not doesnt justify it to be accurate information. And the sources that the article claims to be supported by is mostly from sunni roots that both sects do not agree with, or weak roots. Whatever perspective you approach this page by, you will see imam ali is introduced as someone with selfish desires toward the high political positions, which is the total opposite of who imam ali was. This is why many people become angered when they come upon certain points in this page. The actual imam ali is not even close to how this page portrays him as. On the topic of the burning of lady fatima's home, that entire story is completely inaccurate in this page and is told in a manner that ridicules lady fatima and imam ali and completely twists the truth. Lady fatima was a very pious lady. She was the daughter of the prophet of islam. She is the role model for all muslim women. She was infallible, pure and clean from all sin as the Quran declares "And stay in your houses and do not display your finery like the displaying of the ignorance of yore; and keep up prayer, and pay the poor-rate, and obey God and His Messenger. Allah only desires to keep away the uncleanness from you, O people of the House! and to purify you a [thorough] purifying." --Quran 33:33. It is illogical to then deliberately state that she would threaten to remove her veil in front of the alleged 40 men to be standing there? This statement is completely illogical and very offensive and attacking to lady fatima's pure and highly dignified character. This is the reason for the removal of that offensive sentence. You may reference the verse in the Quran for proof of that.

Then this page completely ignores the fact that immediately after this event, lady fatima lost her son mohsen who she was pregnant with and then 3 days after this event lady fatima died of severe injuries from the beatings she received from certain companions during this event (ibne sa'ad, al-tabaqat al kubra, vol. 2, 85). Lady fatima was 18 years and 7 months old when she died. During the 3 days, she suffered from extreme pain. She was beaten so badly behind the door, they broke 3 of her ribs, her hip, a nail from the door pierced her heart and they also caused her to miscarry her son, muhsen. During the 3 days she was very upset with the companions who did this to her, she requested to be buried in the night because she didn't want those companions to be present at her burial. When lady fatima died, imam ali buried her in the middle of the night with just a few sincere companions (sahih bukhari, vol 5, 177). At this time, imam ali also visited the prophet of islam's grave, here he began to complain about the sufferings he and lady fatima endured during the past few days:

"O’ Prophet of Allah, peace be upon you from me and from your daughter who has come to you and who has hastened to meet you. O’ Prophet of Allah, my patience about your chosen (daughter) has been exhausted, and my power of endurance has weakened, except that I have ground for consolation in having endured the great hardship and heart-rending event of your separation. I laid you down in your grave when your last breath had passed (when your head was) between my neck and chest.

... Verily we are Allah’s and verily unto Him shall we return. (Qur’an 2:156) Now. the trust has been returned and what had been given has been taken back. As to my grief, it knows no bounds, and as to my nights. they will remain sleepless till Allah chooses for me the house in which you are now residing. Certainly, your daughter would apprise you of the joining together of your (1) ummah (people) for oppressing her. You ask her in detail and get all the news about the position. This has happened when a long time had not elapsed and your remembrance had not disappeared. My salam (salutation) be on you both, the salam of a grief stricken not a disgusted or hateful person; for if I go away it is not because I am weary (of you), and if I stay it is not due to lack of belief in what Allah has promised the endurers."

-Najul Balagha Sermon 201.

To the end of her life, lady fatima was very angry at those alleged companions. You must be careful because many people try to dust over the truth to save face for their religious leaders. In the sunni community omar is referred to as a respectful person, and because of their love for him, many sunnis refuse to admit this event even occurred. Like I said many people like to dust up the truth. This page needs to be revised, many muslims that come across this page, regard this page as unreliable material because some of the truth is either hidden or twisted. Not all of the truth is neglected in this page, though to give it more credibility, we must make sure it has accurate material. Thank you. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Goldstone2222 (talk • contribs) 10:46, 14 August 2011 (UTC)

So....this page is not the place to have religious arguments. Goldstone2222, you appear, as far as I can tell, to be referring directly to primary religious sources (hadith)--is this correct? If so, you need to alter your thinking in how to proceed. What we actually need are secondary sources--i.e., information written by scholars who have commented one way or the other. Ideal for this situation would be those who have examined multiple sides of the situation, made critical commentary, etc. As a general rule, hadith are not considered to be reliable sources on Wikipedia for anything other than exactly what they say. That is, we can say, "According to X hadith, Y happened." However, we cannot say "Y happened.<+ref Hadith X>". We want that first sentence, along with some commentary by secondary sources about the meaning of the hadith, how well accepted it is, etc. Qwyrxian (talk) 00:01, 16 August 2011 (UTC)

This is not a religious debate or argument but proof of history, according to Sunni scholars, you cannot get any more accurate then the sahihs and the quran. If you would like commentary I will provide you with commentary. Your requests of me are unreasonable, secondary sources will be biased, I cannot give you unbiased material based off of biased information. The primary source is what you need to be seeking in order to obtain objective historical documentaries. Secondary sources will just be taking the history and incorporating their own biased into it. That's where I see your problem is here, this page is filled with biased and inaccurate material and it is all because you rely solely on biased sources, you are losing credibility. If you would like to have an accurate account of history your heading the wrong direction. I have provided you with historical information. May I ask you where you get your authority to be as a judge between historical material regaurding Imam ali? You need to understand that some information in this page is wrong. It completely takes away the credibility from the entire page. and you must correct that information because it makes the whole page unreliable, most Muslim scholars who have vast knowledge about Islamic history and have studied their entire lives would ridicule many points in this page. They must be changed.

Plus I wrote the Surah from the quran to prove to you the point about lady fatima and her being pure and why it is impractical for her to ever say she would remove her scarf in front of men. Just like the format you were requesting me to write it in. because of surah X, Y happened. Also I wrote the entire sermon 201 where imam ali is speaking at the grave of prophet mohammad (sawas) after he buried lady fatima at night. I also wrote that in the format you requested. Then please allow me to fix at least those parts that I directly wrote down the quotes for as a reference. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Goldstone2222 (talk • contribs) 09:49, 16 August 2011 (UTC)

The page WP:PRIMARY gives a detailed explanation of why an encyclopedia prefers secondary and tertiary sources in articles. When there are different points of view, as may be between Sunni and Shia traditions, then we use the sources and weight policies to determine which views to include and how much coverage they get. And as Qwyrxian pointed out, Hadith are not generally reliable sources for anything except exactly what they say. Original research and synthesis like you engage in above ("...I wrote the Surah from the quran to prove to you the point about lady fatima...") are simply not permitted under the project's policies because you used primary sources to form conclusions and opinions. So, if you want to make a change in the text, the very first thing you need is good sources, and the second thing you'll need is consensus on how to balance and present the information, if it is to appear at all. I hope these links will help you to understand how WP works. Good luck, Doc Tropics 21:48, 20 August 2011 (UTC)

This article (Ali)has multiple issues

This article has contained a abundance of issues which need to be discussed and need citation and authentic references.What is this Shi'a View Sunni...Was he a just a Imam of of Shi'a's has had not association what soever with the Sunnis? Thats quite sarcastic that what I think..The solution to solve this issue is that we completely separate Sunni and Shi'a articles from each another..For instance "Ali (Shi'a) "Ali (Sunni views).....Farther more I found/observed problems/blunders/false information etc...during my reading of the article are as followes; 1 - Age/Born of the Ali while we have solid proves what was his real age and date of birth... 2 - is Ali is among the Rashudeen Khalifas? if answers is yes who has had considered him among the Rashudeen Kaleefa, we know for certain that Allama Ibne Khuldoon (Sunni), Mausadi, Yaqoobi (Shi'a) etc has not put him into the list of Rashideen... 3 - Was Ali from the blood line of Mohammad peace be upon him that we placed him into prophat Ahl al-Bayt and what about the family of Ali? Sons, daughters etc...are they Ahl al-Bayt of Ali or Prophet? What Quran says regarding this issues? 4 - Marriage of Ali " Muhammad told Ali that God had ordered Muhammad to give his daughter, Fatimah, to Ali in marriage." What is this nonsense, you guys are making other people laugh on us...Kindly narrate the actual events of Fatima marriage instead of making a simple event into something else... 5 - What Ali elected as Khalif by Sahaba ? article says "Ali was appointed Caliph by the Companions of Muhammad (the Sahaba) in Medina after the assassination of the third caliph, Uthman ibn Affan" while we know that all classical muslim historiography says that Ibn Ishtar Al-Nakhe al-kufi directly responsible for killing of Usman, raised the hand of Ali as Khalifa and order if any person objected remove his head from his body...totally ignored the events of selection of Ali...discussion of Ali's uncles, etc... 6 - Ali age during migration time? The incident of Mubahala? Ghadir Khumm? Succession to Muhammad? Inheritance?

Note:- Article is full of false information from top to bottom... — Preceding unsigned comment added by Aparytai (talk • contribs) 07:50, 30 September 2011 (UTC)

I'm confused. Are you saying that things like the date of his birth in the article is wrong? What is your reliable source to demonstrate that something else is correct? Are the rest of these points things that are missing, or are that are wrong in the article? Overall, the best thing you can do is to provide some sources here for what you want to change, and state exactly what should be changed. Note that, as a general rule, the Qu'ran cannot be used as a source, because it is a primary source, and thus can only be used to state exactly what it says (with no interpretation); we generally prefer secondary sources.

Actually, let me ask one more pointed question: are you saying that there is one and only one right answer to how to interpret Ali? Because, my limited understanding is that different Muslim sects have very different views; this article should neutrally present all such major views, not just one. If the article is currently only presenting one, then, yes, we have a problem. If you're trying to make the article confirm to only one perspective, then you have a problem. Qwyrxian (talk) 03:49, 1 October 2011 (UTC)

Actually I am not an expert in editing wikipedia....Thanks giving information I will give you information/reference for each of the problem kindly if we a consensus is built kindly add to the article.

Though there are too many different traditions are available regarding the date of birth of Ali, however the most reliable and accepted among the Sunnis and Shia is , the narration of Ali's own saying regarding his own age, which was noted in " Kamil Albard-wa-Aqdal fareed wo Shara Nahjul Balagha" Words are "Laqad nehfast feha wama balghat al-astareen" means I was not even twenty (20) years old when i stood in the battle of Badr. The confirm date of battle of Badr is the last quarter of 2nd Hijri so from that point of view during that time , he was exactly 18 years old during the migration period while from this calculation we can confirm that during the time of declaration of Nabuwat by Prophet Mohammad the age of Ali was without any doubt 5 years..

While regarding Khulfai Rasheedin this term was never used by Sunni scholars for Ali instead scholars like Allama Ibn KHuldoon wrote it for Abu Bakr, Omar, Usman, Mauwia, Abdul Aziz, Imam ibn Tameea...Mostly consider the period of Ali as period of fitnas. they give justification for this point is, During the Khalifa of Ali, nothing had done for the spread of Islam, no Jihad was done against the invading Christians etc... instead of consolidation of his own Khalifa by splitting the Ummah into Shi'a and Sunni and blood shed of hundred of thousands of innocents.Ashurnasirpal 05:47, 5 October 2011 (UTC)

Aparytai's additions

Could I get the opinions of other editors on Aparytai's additions (see the most recent edit). I reverted once, because to me this seems to be far too much quoting for a WP article, and I'm concerned about the source. I'm not even sure that the whole topic meets WP:DUE. However, this content is quite a bit out of my knowledge base, so maybe I'm not looking at this the right way. At a minimum, I think we need to take that information and convert it from 7 block quotes into 1 summary paragraph. Qwyrxian (talk) 01:09, 11 October 2011 (UTC)

Thanks for taking my information into consideration, however there lies another problem as well within this topic that is; incomplete information of Ali's family/marital life, for instance. How many women Ali married, number of his children (Sons, daughters ), their names etc.Ashurnasirpal 12:51, 11 October 2011 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Aparytai (talk • contribs)

Could you please tell me more about the source? The way its written, it looks like a primary religious document (like a hadith)? Is it? Is it some other form of commentary? When was it published? Qwyrxian (talk) 23:41, 11 October 2011 (UTC)

This event is for the first time reported by father of Shi'a Hadith scholars of the Third Hijri Century -329 A.H, famouly known as Ibn Babveh or Al-Qummi in his well known work, “Elal Al-Sharae’”, pp.185-186, Al-Najaf Print; later on this event is also mentioned by famous Shi'a scholars like Mullah Baqir Majlisi in his famous“Biharul Anwar,43/201-202 and also by at least all later sunni scholars like Imam Muslim in his Sahee Narration #5999 reported this event.Ashurnasirpal 03:41, 12 October 2011 (UTC)

Brother in my first post I have had told you that I am not an expert of editing of wikipedia...kindly ignore my mistakes instead have a deep insight on my given information/citation/references...I asked you last time about adding information regarding Ali's other nines wives/ Slaves girls from whom Ali's other chirdren born which are 37 in numbers (total 19 sons/ 18 daughters) including four children from Fatima.Ashurnasirpal 08:41, 12 October 2011 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Aparytai (talk • contribs)

Well, one problem is that I know nothing about the subject matter, so I'm finding it difficult to advise. However, I do know that it would not be appropriate to include information about all of his children--probably only those which are notable themselves, and then only as necessary to explain Ali's life itself. The reason I asked about the sources is that a source from 329 A.H. probably doesn't count as a reliable source on Wikipedia. On the other hand, it looks like a lot of this article is sourced to things that aren't reliable sources. In any event, one of the points I made above is that we shouldn't just be providing long quotations of our source. Instead, we should summarize what the source says and provide an appropriate citation. Do you think you can do that? I can try, though, without subject matter knowledge, it may be difficult. I've been hoping that other editors of this article would jump in to help, but it seems a bit lonely here. Qwyrxian (talk) 10:05, 12 October 2011 (UTC)

Actually what we have been lacking here are good/sincere/knowledgeable/neutral editors and I also find it extremely difficult to bring this article to an scholarly level, because of those people who turn the topic towards their own thinking/motives/sectarian views/logic etc. I really don't understand a source of the 9th A.D isn't reliable? On what basis both the Sunni/Shi'ite religious Scholars have confirm the happening of this event and not only modern day scholars but of classical age had confirmed that all the narrators/chain of narrators are trust worthy and worthwhile to accept their words. Beside with that though Ali is not only a Shi'ite figure that usually he is depicted but also to the Sunni's that he is among the companions of the Prophet. Yes you can summarize the narration, however before adding to the article kindly briefed me on the summarize paragraph, if the subject need any citation...Yes you are right in words that its quite lonely here.Ashurnasirpal 03:55, 16 October 2011 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Aparytai (talk • contribs)

Edit request from , 11 October 2011

Drawing image of sacred personalities is strictly not allowed in Islam. Drawing picture itself is not allowed. I strongly condemn placement of a picture associated with Hazrat Ali. Please remove this picture on immediate basis.

Regards,

Syed Shahbaz Nemat shabby_pk@hotmail.com

Nemats (talk) 11:36, 11 October 2011 (UTC)

 Not done: Please see Talk:Muhammad/FAQ. Favonian (talk) 11:54, 11 October 2011 (UTC)

Edit request from , 18 October 2011

According to Islam and my knowledge no one has seen companions of Holy Prophet Muhammad(s.a.w). Please remove the current image since its spreading false picture and is complete baseless. You can edit it with the following image: http://www.google.ca/imgres?q=hazrat+ali+empire&um=1&hl=en&sa=N&rlz=1C1DVCB_enCA354CA354&biw=1066&bih=534&tbm=isch&tbnid=J0dhmgQSiJvLVM:&imgrefurl=http://iah211dspring2010.wikispaces.com/Group%2B3-5%2BRightly%2BGuided%2BCaliphs&docid=VQIJOijg5kmTkM&imgurl=http://iah211dspring2010.wikispaces.com/file/view/800px-Mohammad_adil_rais-Caliph_Ali%2527s_empire_661.PNG.png/122962609/800px-Mohammad_adil_rais-Caliph_Ali%2527s_empire_661.PNG.png&w=800&h=388&ei=OXedTtzqB8fKiAKtur3WCQ&zoom=1&iact=hc&vpx=174&vpy=187&dur=302&hovh=138&hovw=286&tx=155&ty=41&sig=114592264019558576044&page=1&tbnh=105&tbnw=217&start=0&ndsp=8&ved=1t:429,r:0,s:0

24.81.5.12 (talk) 12:59, 18 October 2011 (UTC)

 Not done: Please see Talk:Muhammad/FAQ. CambridgeBayWeather (talk) 16:24, 18 October 2011 (UTC)

File:Ali callig.gif Nominated for Deletion

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Edit request from , 25 October 2011

Please remove the picture of Imam Ali ibn Abi Taleb. Because Islamic Rites there is a Prohibition on drawing pictures of the caliphs.

Alaro (talk) 11:57, 25 October 2011 (UTC)

 Not done: Please see Talk:Muhammad/FAQ.

pics are not as great as they can be

more pictures of his mosque from Najaf please...some of the pictures you all have uploaded are hideously old and dull.